Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I have a patient that has ringing in the ears and dizzyness. He says it started after he finished a course of genomyicin (sp) after having a heart operation. The usual course is 2 wks but with heart surgery they wanted him on it 6 wks. Also he had to sign a waiver that it could cause defeaness. He has had these symtoms since Jan of last year. He had another operation this autumn and these symptoms persist. The ringing is all the time. Sometimes it is a faint hum in the background. Other times he says the volume is turned up loud. It's driving him crazy and he can't sleep well at night. The dizzyness comes whenerver he stands up and if he is in a moving vehicle, he says he feels like a bobble head doll, everything is moving. I just started treating him and would appreciate any suggestions anyone has. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Anne, Please include pulse, tongue and symptoms and signs as well. Clearly, however, there is kidney qi vacuity, so it would seem that supplementing kidney qi would be important. On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:25 PM, accumom54 wrote: > > I have a patient that has ringing in the ears and dizzyness. He says > it started after he finished a course of genomyicin (sp) after having > a heart operation. The usual course is 2 wks but with heart surgery > they wanted him on it 6 wks. Also he had to sign a waiver that it > could cause defeaness. He has had these symtoms since Jan of last > year. He had another operation this autumn and these symptoms > persist. > > The ringing is all the time. Sometimes it is a faint hum in the > background. Other times he says the volume is turned up loud. It's > driving him crazy and he can't sleep well at night. The dizzyness > comes whenerver he stands up and if he is in a moving vehicle, he says > he feels like a bobble head doll, everything is moving. I just > started treating him and would appreciate any suggestions anyone has. > > Anne > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Anne, I believe tinnitus (ringing in the ears) is a result of 'emptiness in the sea of marrow' and water qi may fill this emptiness. Hence the sound of water flowing may alleviate tinnitus symptoms. Next time there is a problem, ask your patient to try standing under a shower / turn on a tap(water faucet) / listen to waves crashing on the sea-shore or sit by a burbling brook. White noise from a radio 'off station' can also work, but sometimes makes it worse. Similarly, watch out for the high pitch noise of a computer HDD, monitor, or TV set. Allergic reaction, coffee, or stress can also trigger tinnitus. If there is congestion is the nasal cavities, making a " nnnhh " resonating sound in the roof of the mouth may help. Acupuncture can be very effective if the right points are chosen. Regards, Sammy. - accumom54 Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:25 PM ringing in ears, dizzyness I have a patient that has ringing in the ears and dizzyness. He says it started after he finished a course of genomyicin (sp) after having a heart operation. The usual course is 2 wks but with heart surgery they wanted him on it 6 wks. Also he had to sign a waiver that it could cause defeaness. He has had these symtoms since Jan of last year. He had another operation this autumn and these symptoms persist. The ringing is all the time. Sometimes it is a faint hum in the background. Other times he says the volume is turned up loud. It's driving him crazy and he can't sleep well at night. The dizzyness comes whenerver he stands up and if he is in a moving vehicle, he says he feels like a bobble head doll, everything is moving. I just started treating him and would appreciate any suggestions anyone has. Anne http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Tongue, purple/red body, thin white coat, red tip, fuller sides, red underneath, Pulse, KI low, HT, SI quality - (heart value replacemnt - Jan 04, hole in heart; open heart surgery Sept 04) Pale, sallow complexiton - had been in hospital weekend before seeing me - low red blood count, had transfusions I did Internal Demons, Master 1/4 below CV 15, ST 25, ST 32, ST 41 drained for 20 + mins, tonified HT 7, SP3, ST 42 He did not have much change - he says, after this - but his spirits looked a lot brighter - and that is a lot of his problem with recovery Today I did Aggressive Energy - Back Shu - Yin points, tonified SP 8, and ST 34 Qi Clefts, the water came up and all the other pulses had a nice quality to them. I also did SI 19. I don't know the results of this treatment yet but was looking for some other ideas for these 2 symptoms vertigo - upon standing; or in moving vehicle ringing in the ears, all the time sometimes louder both occuring after taking the genomycin for 6 wks (right after stopping the med) I had a patient when I was a student in the clinic who had severe vertigo, she was 17, a great student, and could not go to school it was so bad. All Western med treatments were not working. I did similar treatments, Internal Demons, External Demons (she had a fall at age 15 which started headaches), Aggressive Engergy, treated the earth element, ST and SP, sources, qi clefts, jcts. All her symptoms disappeared in 4 - 6 treatments. wrote: > Anne, > Please include pulse, tongue and symptoms and signs as well. > Clearly, however, there is kidney qi vacuity, so it would seem that > supplementing kidney qi would be important. > > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:25 PM, accumom54 wrote: > > > > > I have a patient that has ringing in the ears and dizzyness. He says > > it started after he finished a course of genomyicin (sp) after having > > a heart operation. The usual course is 2 wks but with heart surgery > > they wanted him on it 6 wks. Also he had to sign a waiver that it > > could cause defeaness. He has had these symtoms since Jan of last > > year. He had another operation this autumn and these symptoms > > persist. > > > > The ringing is all the time. Sometimes it is a faint hum in the > > background. Other times he says the volume is turned up loud. It's > > driving him crazy and he can't sleep well at night. The dizzyness > > comes whenerver he stands up and if he is in a moving vehicle, he says > > he feels like a bobble head doll, everything is moving. I just > > started treating him and would appreciate any suggestions anyone has. > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 A case with this sort of history is a good example of the difficulty of employing a 2,000 plus year-old healing system in modern time. This patient's symptoms were the result of taking a drug - a etiological factor none of our colleagues going back 2,000 years ever faced (I know some herbs could cause some damage but these drugs are different). While I think one must still consider traditional signs (pulse, tongue, etc.), the fact is we do not know what to make of those signs when such drugs are involved. Is kidney qi vacuity as sure of a component in this case as someone with the same symptoms who did not take this drug? No one knows because we don't have 2,000 or even 200 years of dealing with this exact type of case. I have had a decent amount of success treating tinnitus and vertigo using one or another of the three local points of TH21, SI19, GB2 in addition to the primary constitutional treatment. I try to determine which of these three channels is most involved and pick the point on that channel. In my experience, one must needle either of these three fairly deeply (at least .5 inch, deeper for SI19), stimulating the needles with an even clockwise/counterclockwise rotation and, if needed to elicit a response, a simultaneous lift and thrust technique. The patient must feel these needles to be effective. I also often add TH 17. Twice weekly treatments for at least four weeks are often needed to even start to cause a break in the symptoms. Matt Bauer - Anne Crowley Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 19, 2005 3:35 PM Re: ringing in ears, dizzyness Tongue, purple/red body, thin white coat, red tip, fuller sides, red underneath, Pulse, KI low, HT, SI quality - (heart value replacemnt - Jan 04, hole in heart; open heart surgery Sept 04) Pale, sallow complexiton - had been in hospital weekend before seeing me - low red blood count, had transfusions I did Internal Demons, Master 1/4 below CV 15, ST 25, ST 32, ST 41 drained for 20 + mins, tonified HT 7, SP3, ST 42 He did not have much change - he says, after this - but his spirits looked a lot brighter - and that is a lot of his problem with recovery Today I did Aggressive Energy - Back Shu - Yin points, tonified SP 8, and ST 34 Qi Clefts, the water came up and all the other pulses had a nice quality to them. I also did SI 19. I don't know the results of this treatment yet but was looking for some other ideas for these 2 symptoms vertigo - upon standing; or in moving vehicle ringing in the ears, all the time sometimes louder both occuring after taking the genomycin for 6 wks (right after stopping the med) I had a patient when I was a student in the clinic who had severe vertigo, she was 17, a great student, and could not go to school it was so bad. All Western med treatments were not working. I did similar treatments, Internal Demons, External Demons (she had a fall at age 15 which started headaches), Aggressive Engergy, treated the earth element, ST and SP, sources, qi clefts, jcts. All her symptoms disappeared in 4 - 6 treatments. wrote: > Anne, > Please include pulse, tongue and symptoms and signs as well. > Clearly, however, there is kidney qi vacuity, so it would seem that > supplementing kidney qi would be important. > > > On Jan 19, 2005, at 12:25 PM, accumom54 wrote: > > > > > I have a patient that has ringing in the ears and dizzyness. He says > > it started after he finished a course of genomyicin (sp) after having > > a heart operation. The usual course is 2 wks but with heart surgery > > they wanted him on it 6 wks. Also he had to sign a waiver that it > > could cause defeaness. He has had these symtoms since Jan of last > > year. He had another operation this autumn and these symptoms > > persist. > > > > The ringing is all the time. Sometimes it is a faint hum in the > > background. Other times he says the volume is turned up loud. It's > > driving him crazy and he can't sleep well at night. The dizzyness > > comes whenerver he stands up and if he is in a moving vehicle, he says > > he feels like a bobble head doll, everything is moving. I just > > started treating him and would appreciate any suggestions anyone has. > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 Anne Crowley wrote: > > Tongue, purple/red body, thin white coat, red tip, fuller sides, red > underneath, > Pulse, KI low, HT, SI quality - (heart value replacemnt - Jan 04, hole > in heart; open heart surgery Sept 04) > Pale, sallow complexiton - had been in hospital weekend before seeing me > - low red blood count, had transfusions > > I did Internal Demons, Master 1/4 below CV 15, ST 25, ST 32, ST 41 > drained for 20 + mins, tonified HT 7, SP3, ST 42 > He did not have much change - he says, after this - but his spirits > looked a lot brighter - and that is a lot of his problem with recovery > > Today I did Aggressive Energy - Back Shu - Yin points, tonified SP 8, > and ST 34 Qi Clefts, the water came up and all the other pulses had a > nice quality to them. I also did SI 19. I don't know the results of > this treatment yet but was looking for some other ideas for these 2 > symptoms > > vertigo - upon standing; or in moving vehicle > ringing in the ears, all the time sometimes louder > both occuring after taking the genomycin for 6 wks (right after stopping > the med) > > I had a patient when I was a student in the clinic who had severe > vertigo, she was 17, a great student, and could not go to school it was > so bad. All Western med treatments were not working. I did similar > treatments, Internal Demons, External Demons (she had a fall at age 15 > which started headaches), Aggressive Engergy, treated the earth element, > ST and SP, sources, qi clefts, jcts. All her symptoms disappeared in 4 > - 6 treatments. > Can you inform on tongue fissures? How many Location of each Depth Substance in furrow [Damp] Color of substance [yellow, greenish] Also if tonge titls to one side or the other Dr. Holmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2005 Report Share Posted January 20, 2005 I have to respectfully disagree with you. The only difference in the practice of Chinese medicine between ancient and modern eras is in data, not in theory. We simply factor in how the drugs effect the body and mind, as another influence to the pulse, tongue and pattern differentiation. Even more emphatically, one of the premier subjects of the Shang Han Lun, a Han dynasty text, is bian zheng/transmuted patterns. These patterns are caused by inappropriate medical treatment, and lead to more complex and convoluted conditions. There are several discussions of severe illness caused by wrong treatment with herbal medicine and acupuncture. It is a small step to understand how modern drugs create transmuted patterns. I've applied the same principles to damage by modern drugs, using the Shang Han Lun template to understand how a patient's condition has been effected. I also teach this methodology to students and practitioners in workshops and at PCOM. On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:01 PM, Matt Bauer wrote: > A case with this sort of history is a good example of the difficulty > of employing a 2,000 plus year-old healing system in modern time. This > patient's symptoms were the result of taking a drug - a etiological > factor none of our colleagues going back 2,000 years ever faced (I > know some herbs could cause some damage but these drugs are > different). While I think one must still consider traditional signs > (pulse, tongue, etc.), the fact is we do not know what to make of > those signs when such drugs are involved. Is kidney qi vacuity as sure > of a component in this case as someone with the same symptoms who did > not take this drug? No one knows because we don't have 2,000 or even > 200 years of dealing with this exact type of case. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Thanks for your input Z'ev. Of course, the results one obtains for one's patients is the bottom line and if you are as successful treating conditions caused/complicated by drugs/surgery/radiation, as those caused by inappropriate Chinese herbs/acupuncture or wind/heat/ etc... then my hat is off to you. I myself never know exactly how to read a pulse quickened by stimulants, slowed by sedatives, or softened by antihypertensive drugs. Does a unusual tongue coating caused by a drug indicate the same imbalance as the same coating would in someone not on medication? My own experience is that I often have better success finding a way to help someone with stubborn low back pain if they have not yet had spinal surgery. With respect, I am not so sure it is a " small step " to understand the effects of drugs, surgery, radiation, etc. as compared to transmuted patterns caused by herbs or acupuncture. But, then again, if you have had the same success in such cases you may well be right. Matt Bauer - Chinese Medicine Wednesday, January 19, 2005 8:15 PM Re: ringing in ears, dizzyness I have to respectfully disagree with you. The only difference in the practice of Chinese medicine between ancient and modern eras is in data, not in theory. We simply factor in how the drugs effect the body and mind, as another influence to the pulse, tongue and pattern differentiation. Even more emphatically, one of the premier subjects of the Shang Han Lun, a Han dynasty text, is bian zheng/transmuted patterns. These patterns are caused by inappropriate medical treatment, and lead to more complex and convoluted conditions. There are several discussions of severe illness caused by wrong treatment with herbal medicine and acupuncture. It is a small step to understand how modern drugs create transmuted patterns. I've applied the same principles to damage by modern drugs, using the Shang Han Lun template to understand how a patient's condition has been effected. I also teach this methodology to students and practitioners in workshops and at PCOM. On Jan 19, 2005, at 5:01 PM, Matt Bauer wrote: > A case with this sort of history is a good example of the difficulty > of employing a 2,000 plus year-old healing system in modern time. This > patient's symptoms were the result of taking a drug - a etiological > factor none of our colleagues going back 2,000 years ever faced (I > know some herbs could cause some damage but these drugs are > different). While I think one must still consider traditional signs > (pulse, tongue, etc.), the fact is we do not know what to make of > those signs when such drugs are involved. Is kidney qi vacuity as sure > of a component in this case as someone with the same symptoms who did > not take this drug? No one knows because we don't have 2,000 or even > 200 years of dealing with this exact type of case. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Matt, The 'secret' is to simply see the drug effects as part of the pattern. Some drugs, such as steroids, are very deep acting and will penetrate deeply to the kidney channel, also effecting the shao yang channel (especially the triple burner). A drug like prednisone in the short term tends to make for a more floating and rapid pulse, sometimes very choppy, sometimes flooding, as one example. Record your impressions of drug effects on tongue pulse and symptom and save them, you'll eventually see patterns emerge with medications that will allow you to factor in their effects on your patients into your diagnosis. Some drugs are so overwhelming in their effects, such as chemotherapy drugs and strong doses of steroids, that you are basically treating a 'drug disease' pattern. Most other drugs, however, have more subtle effects. Surgery is another issue entirely. I have to agree that treating patients after back surgery will be a much more difficult endeavor than if they hadn't had the surgery. However, I learned from Michael Broffman, and have applied for several years, that surgery, especially of the abdomen 'cuts' the channels, and the qi and blood shunt off into adjacent channels. So one has to be sensitive to the 'biased' flow of qi, and try to open up the blockages as much as possible in the appropriate channels. But that is another topic altogether. On Jan 20, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Matt Bauer wrote: > Thanks for your input Z'ev. Of course, the results one obtains for > one's patients is the bottom line and if you are as successful > treating conditions caused/complicated by drugs/surgery/radiation, as > those caused by inappropriate Chinese herbs/acupuncture or wind/heat/ > etc... then my hat is off to you. I myself never know exactly how to > read a pulse quickened by stimulants, slowed by sedatives, or softened > by antihypertensive drugs. Does a unusual tongue coating caused by a > drug indicate the same imbalance as the same coating would in someone > not on medication? My own experience is that I often have better > success finding a way to help someone with stubborn low back pain if > they have not yet had spinal surgery. With respect, I am not so sure > it is a " small step " to understand the effects of drugs, surgery, > radiation, etc. as compared to transmuted patterns caused by herbs or > acupuncture. But, then again, if you have had the same success in such > cases you may well be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Thanks for the info, Z'ev. Let me ask you though: If you see a patient who is complaining of headaches and they have a floating and rapid pulse and they are taking prednisone, do you consider them to have a yang shi constitution causing the headaches based on the pulses or might their pulses have been different without the prednisone? What if they had the headaches before they were on prednisone vs. if the headaches started sometimes afterward, considering headaches are a side-effect of prednisone? Matt - Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 20, 2005 4:29 PM Re: ringing in ears, dizzyness Matt, The 'secret' is to simply see the drug effects as part of the pattern. Some drugs, such as steroids, are very deep acting and will penetrate deeply to the kidney channel, also effecting the shao yang channel (especially the triple burner). A drug like prednisone in the short term tends to make for a more floating and rapid pulse, sometimes very choppy, sometimes flooding, as one example. Record your impressions of drug effects on tongue pulse and symptom and save them, you'll eventually see patterns emerge with medications that will allow you to factor in their effects on your patients into your diagnosis. Some drugs are so overwhelming in their effects, such as chemotherapy drugs and strong doses of steroids, that you are basically treating a 'drug disease' pattern. Most other drugs, however, have more subtle effects. Surgery is another issue entirely. I have to agree that treating patients after back surgery will be a much more difficult endeavor than if they hadn't had the surgery. However, I learned from Michael Broffman, and have applied for several years, that surgery, especially of the abdomen 'cuts' the channels, and the qi and blood shunt off into adjacent channels. So one has to be sensitive to the 'biased' flow of qi, and try to open up the blockages as much as possible in the appropriate channels. But that is another topic altogether. On Jan 20, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Matt Bauer wrote: > Thanks for your input Z'ev. Of course, the results one obtains for > one's patients is the bottom line and if you are as successful > treating conditions caused/complicated by drugs/surgery/radiation, as > those caused by inappropriate Chinese herbs/acupuncture or wind/heat/ > etc... then my hat is off to you. I myself never know exactly how to > read a pulse quickened by stimulants, slowed by sedatives, or softened > by antihypertensive drugs. Does a unusual tongue coating caused by a > drug indicate the same imbalance as the same coating would in someone > not on medication? My own experience is that I often have better > success finding a way to help someone with stubborn low back pain if > they have not yet had spinal surgery. With respect, I am not so sure > it is a " small step " to understand the effects of drugs, surgery, > radiation, etc. as compared to transmuted patterns caused by herbs or > acupuncture. But, then again, if you have had the same success in such > cases you may well be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Matt, In this case, undoubtedly the prednisone is causing the floating and rapid pulse, and you are dealing with a strong drug reaction. Of course, you need to trace the origin (bing yin) of the headache to see if it is a result of the drug or a previous symptomology, and treat accordingly. If you have treated the patient before they started the drug, you have an idea about their previous pulse and can compare, if not, you may be misled in your diagnosis if you do not factor in the effects of the prednisone. On Jan 20, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Matt Bauer wrote: > Thanks for the info, Z'ev. Let me ask you though: If you see a patient > who is complaining of headaches and they have a floating and rapid > pulse and they are taking prednisone, do you consider them to have a > yang shi constitution causing the headaches based on the pulses or > might their pulses have been different without the prednisone? What if > they had the headaches before they were on prednisone vs. if the > headaches started sometimes afterward, considering headaches are a > side-effect of prednisone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Agreed Z'ev. But what if you had not seen this patient before and their headaches began before they took prednisone and you are trying to trace the origin of their headache but their pulses are now being altered by the drug? You don't know what the pulses were before so you must, in effect, make a diagnosis without the aid of pulse signs. Might the prednisone have also altered tongue signs or had a role in altering channel pathology? What then, do you have to go on? I am not trying to be obstinate here, I am sincerely interested in how you approach what I consider a catch-22. - Matt - Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 20, 2005 6:07 PM Re: ringing in ears, dizzyness Matt, In this case, undoubtedly the prednisone is causing the floating and rapid pulse, and you are dealing with a strong drug reaction. Of course, you need to trace the origin (bing yin) of the headache to see if it is a result of the drug or a previous symptomology, and treat accordingly. If you have treated the patient before they started the drug, you have an idea about their previous pulse and can compare, if not, you may be misled in your diagnosis if you do not factor in the effects of the prednisone. On Jan 20, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Matt Bauer wrote: > Thanks for the info, Z'ev. Let me ask you though: If you see a patient > who is complaining of headaches and they have a floating and rapid > pulse and they are taking prednisone, do you consider them to have a > yang shi constitution causing the headaches based on the pulses or > might their pulses have been different without the prednisone? What if > they had the headaches before they were on prednisone vs. if the > headaches started sometimes afterward, considering headaches are a > side-effect of prednisone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 By asking the right questions. It really isn't much different than treating a strong wind-warmth attack that causes a red tongue with white coat and a floating rapid pulse. You are in essence treating an acute disease pattern (drug disease), and you use the appropriate treatment strategy for this. There are three factors to consider: 1) the quality of the disease (interior, exterior, amt. of heat, wind, damp, cold, etc.) 2) length of time of the disease 3) depth of the disease (via six channel, four aspect, yin, yang, qi, blood fluid differentiation) This will determine the strength, dosage and length of treatment by herbal medicine or acupuncture. On Jan 20, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Matt Bauer wrote: > Agreed Z'ev. But what if you had not seen this patient before and > their headaches began before they took prednisone and you are trying > to trace the origin of their headache but their pulses are now being > altered by the drug? You don't know what the pulses were before so you > must, in effect, make a diagnosis without the aid of pulse signs. > Might the prednisone have also altered tongue signs or had a role in > altering channel pathology? What then, do you have to go on? I am not > trying to be obstinate here, I am sincerely interested in how you > approach what I consider a catch-22. - Matt > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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