PC-SPES Court Finding: Implications for herbalists and suppliers?

[Guest guest]

, @e... wrote:

 

> I am worried about this development because this case is almost certain

> to get get high profiling by the opponents of herbal medicine, and

> because it must sow doubts in the minds of many herbalists, who must

> ask themselves:

>

> Can we trust OUR suppliers of herbal formulas to be 100% above board

> on their labeling, or are WE sure that what we prescribe is EXACTLY as

> it says on the label?

 

 

gosh, I'm so surprised. We had all pretty much agreed here 5 years ago that PC

spes was

an unlabeled drug. Perhaps the dated posts from the CHA archive could be used

as some

evidence of our innocence and outrage in this matter. As far as I know, no

other TCM

forum, journal or newspaper ever picked up this story, which makes us lookpretty

bad

indeed.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

Attilio & Sammy (TCM List) flagged the decision of the court case

against Dr. Chen and her associates (and others involved in promoting

PC-SPES).

 

Here are two excerpts from the PSA Rising pages: Dr. Sophie Chen

Pleads No Contest, Company Pays More Than Half Million Dollars For

Lacing Supplements:

 

.... The Chens, Wang and IMR, Inc have been fined a total of $510

thousand. They now face class action and catastrophic personal injury

law suits from prostate cancer patients and others who allege that

BotanicLab's bogus herbal supplements caused death, addiction and

bodily harm.

 

... In yesterday's plea bargain the trio pleaded no contest to a single

felony -- actual knowledge of " serious concealed danger. " After FDA

tests proved that PC-SPES and other BotanicLab products were spiked

with warfarin, Xanax and other prescription drugs, Chen and her

associates knowingly failed to inform public authorities of a hazard

carrying " imminent risk of great bodily harm or death. " Penal Code

section 387 (the California Corporate Criminal Liability Act of 1989)

requires businesses to provide public authorities with prompt notice of

concealed dangers in products so that the public will be made aware.

Companies are required to make this notification within 15 days after the

actual knowledge is acquired, or if there is imminent risk of great bodily

harm or death, immediately. After the Federal Drug Administration

notified BotanicLab on Jan 20, 2002 of dangerous hazards concealed in

their products, the company sat on this information and denied it on their

website. Sophie Chen told PSA Rising July 14 2001 that all her products

were pure herbs and, if not, any " contamination " occurred in China

beyond the reach of her quality control measures. But in January 2002

California health officials found the anti-anxiety drug Xanax (alprazolam)

in SPES, a supplement labeled and sold as a pure herbal mixture. They

found the blood-thinner Coumadin (warfarin) in PC-SPES. Other drugs

hidden in BotanicLab's " herbal " products include the pain killer

Indomethacin and two estrogens, estradiol and DES (diethylstilbestrol),

which is banned in the USA as a cancer-causing agent.

 

For more details see:

http://psa-rising.com/pcspes/pleabargaindec182003.html

 

IMO, the implications for herbalists of this finding, and especially if the

subsequent Class Action case succeeds, are extremely serious.

 

Modern WWW technology allows anyone with basic literacy and a

website to post whatever comments or claims they may have on a

medical Tx, herbal or otherwise. he search engines can locate similar

hits very easil;y, allowing any lawyers who wish to drum up business to

locate patients who may have adverse reactions to a prescribed Tx (say

a herbal product). This will allow class actions in an unprecedented

scale in the future.

 

The Chen case shows the danger of using formulas from sources that

are not 100% above board. Apparently, the adulteration of PC-SPES

was not done in USA, but at the manufacturing end. The Chen's

maintain that they did NOT know that the product was adulterated until

they were informed of that by FDA.

 

 

I am worried about this development because this case is almost certain

to get get high profiling by the opponents of herbal medicine, and

because it must sow doubts in the minds of many herbalists, who must

ask themselves:

 

Can we trust OUR suppliers of herbal formulas to be 100% above board

on their labeling, or are WE sure that what we prescribe is EXACTLY as

it says on the label?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil and Sammy,

 

Do I trust the patents or raw herbs for that matter, that come out from

China. Of course not!

 

After having spent 6 months in China, I question everything that comes out

of there. The quality of food, water and air is seriously below standard, so

what about the herbs? I raised the point of the quality of raw herbs coming

out of China some time ago and got a silent smack-in-the-face back. I really

wonder the amount of pesticides that are on the raw herbs, let along what's

in the patents.

 

Its a shame that someone doesn't right an expose on the quality of raw herbs

and patents coming out of China. TCM practitioners need to know which

companies to trust and which ones to avoid. If we are gonna start naming

herbal suppliers, I only use Mayway.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

[]

27 December 2004 17:16

Chinese Medicine ;

Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine

Cc: vbma

PC-SPES Court Finding: Implications for herbalists and

suppliers?

 

 

Can we trust OUR suppliers of herbal formulas to be 100% above board

on their labeling, or are WE sure that what we prescribe is EXACTLY as

it says on the label?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

One of my Chinese lecturers informed me upon returning from a

conference in PRC circa 2003 that a recently completed officeal

government survey of raw herb quality testing revealed that over 60% of

the raw herbs in China were below " acceptable quality " . Note this is

acceptable quality (whatever that is and we can be pretty sure it would

be lower than here), not high quality!! The Chinese government is very

aware of the problem of pesticide, herbacide use in herb growing as

well as the more subtle aspects of climate and time of

picking/processing etc. and is trying to improve the situation.

 

The theory goes that the west gets all the best raw herbs due to better

prices obtained by selling to the international market, and this may be

so. However, I have also spent time in China and have doubts about the

quality of anything that comes from there. It is for this reason I do

not use raw herbs in my practice and only use herbal extracts from GMP

approved companies which are frequently audited. Even this is no

guarantee of quality or safety, but it beats looking at and smelling a

raw herb and deluding oneself the quality of production and possibility

of contamination can be determined by any human senses.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Steve

 

On 28/12/2004, at 5:20 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

 

>

> Hi Phil and Sammy,

>

> Do I trust the patents or raw herbs for that matter, that come out from

> China. Of course not!

>

> After having spent 6 months in China, I question everything that comes

> out

> of there. The quality of food, water and air is seriously below

> standard, so

> what about the herbs? I raised the point of the quality of raw herbs

> coming

> out of China some time ago and got a silent smack-in-the-face back. I

> really

> wonder the amount of pesticides that are on the raw herbs, let along

> what's

> in the patents.

>

> Its a shame that someone doesn't right an expose on the quality of raw

> herbs

> and patents coming out of China. TCM practitioners need to know which

> companies to trust and which ones to avoid. If we are gonna start

> naming

> herbal suppliers, I only use Mayway.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> 07786198900

> attiliodalberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

The quote you mention was published on PSA Rising one day before the Press

Release from Chen's lawyer. The latter puts a much more balanced view I believe.

Considering there have been NO class action suits in the YEAR since the PR was

published, it more or less speaks for itself.

 

Sammy.

 

----- Original Message -----

Chinese Medicine ;

Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine

Cc: vbma

Monday, December 27, 2004 5:15 PM

PC-SPES Court Finding: Implications for herbalists and

suppliers?

 

 

 

Hi All,

 

Attilio & Sammy (TCM List) flagged the decision of the court case

against Dr. Chen and her associates (and others involved in promoting

PC-SPES).

 

Here are two excerpts from the PSA Rising pages: Dr. Sophie Chen

Pleads No Contest, Company Pays More Than Half Million Dollars For

Lacing Supplements:

 

... The Chens, Wang and IMR, Inc have been fined a total of $510

thousand. They now face class action and catastrophic personal injury

law suits from prostate cancer patients and others who allege that

BotanicLab's bogus herbal supplements caused death, addiction and

bodily harm.

 

... In yesterday's plea bargain the trio pleaded no contest to a single

felony -- actual knowledge of " serious concealed danger. " After FDA

tests proved that PC-SPES and other BotanicLab products were spiked

with warfarin, Xanax and other prescription drugs, Chen and her

associates knowingly failed to inform public authorities of a hazard

carrying " imminent risk of great bodily harm or death. " Penal Code

section 387 (the California Corporate Criminal Liability Act of 1989)

requires businesses to provide public authorities with prompt notice of

concealed dangers in products so that the public will be made aware.

Companies are required to make this notification within 15 days after the

actual knowledge is acquired, or if there is imminent risk of great bodily

harm or death, immediately. After the Federal Drug Administration

notified BotanicLab on Jan 20, 2002 of dangerous hazards concealed in

their products, the company sat on this information and denied it on their

website. Sophie Chen told PSA Rising July 14 2001 that all her products

were pure herbs and, if not, any " contamination " occurred in China

beyond the reach of her quality control measures. But in January 2002

California health officials found the anti-anxiety drug Xanax (alprazolam)

in SPES, a supplement labeled and sold as a pure herbal mixture. They

found the blood-thinner Coumadin (warfarin) in PC-SPES. Other drugs

hidden in BotanicLab's " herbal " products include the pain killer

Indomethacin and two estrogens, estradiol and DES (diethylstilbestrol),

which is banned in the USA as a cancer-causing agent.

 

For more details see:

http://psa-rising.com/pcspes/pleabargaindec182003.html

 

IMO, the implications for herbalists of this finding, and especially if the

subsequent Class Action case succeeds, are extremely serious.

 

Modern WWW technology allows anyone with basic literacy and a

website to post whatever comments or claims they may have on a

medical Tx, herbal or otherwise. he search engines can locate similar

hits very easil;y, allowing any lawyers who wish to drum up business to

locate patients who may have adverse reactions to a prescribed Tx (say

a herbal product). This will allow class actions in an unprecedented

scale in the future.

 

The Chen case shows the danger of using formulas from sources that

are not 100% above board. Apparently, the adulteration of PC-SPES

was not done in USA, but at the manufacturing end. The Chen's

maintain that they did NOT know that the product was adulterated until

they were informed of that by FDA.

 

 

I am worried about this development because this case is almost certain

to get get high profiling by the opponents of herbal medicine, and

because it must sow doubts in the minds of many herbalists, who must

ask themselves:

 

Can we trust OUR suppliers of herbal formulas to be 100% above board

on their labeling, or are WE sure that what we prescribe is EXACTLY as

it says on the label?

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

 

Yes, I understand the theory that the best quality herbs are exported

because of the financial benefit, but I'm not so sure if this really

is the case. I was buying herbs every week whilst in China, taking my

own medicine. I noticed that the herbal quality was good, even if it

wasn't at the famous Tong Ren Tang. I think that as the competition

is so high in China and that many patients can tell good herbs from

bad, let alone the practitioners, that they are more likely to

receive good quality herbs.

 

To be honest, I'm not so sure that the majority of TCM practitioners

in the west know what good quality herbs look like. I saw some from a

UK supplier and compared them with another, there was a massive

difference. I therefore wonder what the majority of practitioners are

using in the UK and the West. So actually, we may not be getting the

good quality herbs at all. Of course, the quality of the herbs will

affect the therapeutic effect, and putting aside the contaminants,

that's the big thing.

 

Talking of differences, I mentioned some time ago when I was in South

Korea, I went to the large raw herb market in Seoul and saw first

hand the differences between the Chinese Huang Qi and the Korean

Huang Qi. The Korean Huang Qi was older, larger and had more colour.

The general consensus in Korea was that the Koreans herbs were more

effective. Of course, there will be patriotic bias in their

conclusions, but nevertheless I believe that they are right.

 

I don't understand why we have to buy all our herbs from China

anyway. A lot of the herbs used in TCM were found outside of China,

in places such as Korea, Japan, Malaysia, India and Arabic countries.

So what is it with us when we think that we practice TCM we have to

buy all our stock from them? It's obvious that they are a new,

heavily industrialised nation and so will use a lot of contaminants

in everything including their medicine.

 

I have never heard of any Korean herbs being wholesaled in the west.

Does anyone know of any? They all seems to be the cheap, Chinese

versions.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

www.attiliodalberto.com

 

Chinese Medicine , Steven Slater

<laozhongyi@m...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> One of my Chinese lecturers informed me upon returning from a

> conference in PRC circa 2003 that a recently completed officeal

> government survey of raw herb quality testing revealed that over

60% of

> the raw herbs in China were below " acceptable quality " . Note this

is

> acceptable quality (whatever that is and we can be pretty sure it

would

> be lower than here), not high quality!! The Chinese government is

very

> aware of the problem of pesticide, herbacide use in herb growing as

> well as the more subtle aspects of climate and time of

> picking/processing etc. and is trying to improve the situation.

>

> The theory goes that the west gets all the best raw herbs due to

better

> prices obtained by selling to the international market, and this

may be

> so. However, I have also spent time in China and have doubts about

the

> quality of anything that comes from there. It is for this reason I

do

> not use raw herbs in my practice and only use herbal extracts from

GMP

> approved companies which are frequently audited. Even this is no

> guarantee of quality or safety, but it beats looking at and

smelling a

> raw herb and deluding oneself the quality of production and

possibility

> of contamination can be determined by any human senses.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

> Steve

>

> On 28/12/2004, at 5:20 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi Phil and Sammy,

> >

> > Do I trust the patents or raw herbs for that matter, that come

out from

> > China. Of course not!

> >

> > After having spent 6 months in China, I question everything that

comes

> > out

> > of there. The quality of food, water and air is seriously below

> > standard, so

> > what about the herbs? I raised the point of the quality of raw

herbs

> > coming

> > out of China some time ago and got a silent smack-in-the-face

back. I

> > really

> > wonder the amount of pesticides that are on the raw herbs, let

along

> > what's

> > in the patents.

> >

> > Its a shame that someone doesn't right an expose on the quality

of raw

> > herbs

> > and patents coming out of China. TCM practitioners need to know

which

> > companies to trust and which ones to avoid. If we are gonna start

> > naming

> > herbal suppliers, I only use Mayway.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Attilio D'Alberto

> > Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> > 07786198900

> > attiliodalberto

> > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

[Guest guest]

I think the biggest issue is that Westerners are rarely trained in

quality discernment of herbs and other medicinals. Consequently,

people tend to blindly trust well-known suppliers like mayway to

meet all their needs. Our Chinese counterparts know which herbs are

best purchased from which merchant, and they often order different

ingredients from different suppliers. While companies like mayway

often have generally good herbs, they have some that are of very

high quality and some that are of very average quality. Few of

their customers know how to differentiate which are the good ones

and which are the mediocre ones. Hardly any Westerners have ever

even seen real chen xiang or high-grade hou po, for example.

Because we don't know what to look for, we trust one major company,

even though only maybe 50% of their products are truly of superior

quality. Few Chinese merchants trained in pharmacy would buy

everything from one supplier- if you know what to look for, you buy

different things from different suppliers.

 

Many pharmacies and doctors write prescriptions with specific names

to indicate which grade they want the patient to buy. For example,

some pharmacies will dispense low-grade huang qi when huang qi is

written, but will dispense high-grade huang qi when hei jin qi is

written. Same with hou po vs. zheng chuan po, or shu di huang vs.

ge shu di. In China, all different grades and qualities are

available, you just need to know how to ask for the grade that you

seek. You also need to know where to buy which specific products.

Going to Beijing Tong Ren Tang can give you predictable quality, but

you will pay far more than you would if you know what to look for

and you shop around. There is no one source that is good for

everything.

 

As for only buying GMP factory products, they are well-tested,

consistent, and reliable. But a big factory never uses top-shelf

herbs. Top-shelf herbs are sold intact to the consumer. For the

best stuff, you have to use raw or prepare your own formulas. Many

expensive herbs have counterfeits, and buying something with a huge

variety in qualities and prices makes the novice buyer very

susceptible to being overcharged or completely ripped off.

 

Best,

Eric Brand

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

>

> Hi Steve,

>

> Yes, I understand the theory that the best quality herbs are

exported

> because of the financial benefit, but I'm not so sure if this

really

> is the case. I was buying herbs every week whilst in China, taking

my

> own medicine. I noticed that the herbal quality was good, even if

it

> wasn't at the famous Tong Ren Tang. I think that as the

competition

> is so high in China and that many patients can tell good herbs

from

> bad, let alone the practitioners, that they are more likely to

> receive good quality herbs.

>

> To be honest, I'm not so sure that the majority of TCM

practitioners

> in the west know what good quality herbs look like. I saw some

from a

> UK supplier and compared them with another, there was a massive

> difference. I therefore wonder what the majority of practitioners

are

> using in the UK and the West. So actually, we may not be getting

the

> good quality herbs at all. Of course, the quality of the herbs

will

> affect the therapeutic effect, and putting aside the contaminants,

> that's the big thing.

>

> Talking of differences, I mentioned some time ago when I was in

South

> Korea, I went to the large raw herb market in Seoul and saw first

> hand the differences between the Chinese Huang Qi and the Korean

> Huang Qi. The Korean Huang Qi was older, larger and had more

colour.

> The general consensus in Korea was that the Koreans herbs were

more

> effective. Of course, there will be patriotic bias in their

> conclusions, but nevertheless I believe that they are right.

>

> I don't understand why we have to buy all our herbs from China

> anyway. A lot of the herbs used in TCM were found outside of

China,

> in places such as Korea, Japan, Malaysia, India and Arabic

countries.

> So what is it with us when we think that we practice TCM we have

to

> buy all our stock from them? It's obvious that they are a new,

> heavily industrialised nation and so will use a lot of

contaminants

> in everything including their medicine.

>

> I have never heard of any Korean herbs being wholesaled in the

west.

> Does anyone know of any? They all seems to be the cheap, Chinese

> versions.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio

> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> Chinese Medicine , Steven Slater

> <laozhongyi@m...> wrote:

> > Hi Attilio,

> >

> > One of my Chinese lecturers informed me upon returning from a

> > conference in PRC circa 2003 that a recently completed officeal

> > government survey of raw herb quality testing revealed that over

> 60% of

> > the raw herbs in China were below " acceptable quality " . Note

this

> is

> > acceptable quality (whatever that is and we can be pretty sure

it

> would

> > be lower than here), not high quality!! The Chinese government

is

> very

> > aware of the problem of pesticide, herbacide use in herb growing

as

> > well as the more subtle aspects of climate and time of

> > picking/processing etc. and is trying to improve the situation.

> >

> > The theory goes that the west gets all the best raw herbs due to

> better

> > prices obtained by selling to the international market, and this

> may be

> > so. However, I have also spent time in China and have doubts

about

> the

> > quality of anything that comes from there. It is for this reason

I

> do

> > not use raw herbs in my practice and only use herbal extracts

from

> GMP

> > approved companies which are frequently audited. Even this is no

> > guarantee of quality or safety, but it beats looking at and

> smelling a

> > raw herb and deluding oneself the quality of production and

> possibility

> > of contamination can be determined by any human senses.

> >

> > Best Wishes,

> >

> > Steve

> >

> > On 28/12/2004, at 5:20 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Hi Phil and Sammy,

> > >

> > > Do I trust the patents or raw herbs for that matter, that come

> out from

> > > China. Of course not!

> > >

> > > After having spent 6 months in China, I question everything

that

> comes

> > > out

> > > of there. The quality of food, water and air is seriously

below

> > > standard, so

> > > what about the herbs? I raised the point of the quality of raw

> herbs

> > > coming

> > > out of China some time ago and got a silent smack-in-the-face

> back. I

> > > really

> > > wonder the amount of pesticides that are on the raw herbs, let

> along

> > > what's

> > > in the patents.

> > >

> > > Its a shame that someone doesn't right an expose on the

quality

> of raw

> > > herbs

> > > and patents coming out of China. TCM practitioners need to

know

> which

> > > companies to trust and which ones to avoid. If we are gonna

start

> > > naming

> > > herbal suppliers, I only use Mayway.

> > >

> > > Kind regards

> > >

> > > Attilio D'Alberto

> > > Doctor of (Beijing, China)

> > > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

> > > 07786198900

> > > attiliodalberto

> > > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

[Guest guest]

I've visited a few Korean herbalists in L.A. and Denver, and they seem

to have their own separate herb supplies directly from Korea. Some of

the herbs look different, but that is often because of how they are cut

and processed. A few were used as I.D. herbs on the California state

boards a few years back and caused some problems!

 

 

On Dec 28, 2004, at 8:50 AM, wrote:

 

>

> I don't understand why we have to buy all our herbs from China

> anyway. A lot of the herbs used in TCM were found outside of China,

> in places such as Korea, Japan, Malaysia, India and Arabic countries.

> So what is it with us when we think that we practice TCM we have to

> buy all our stock from them? It's obvious that they are a new,

> heavily industrialised nation and so will use a lot of contaminants

> in everything including their medicine.

>

> I have never heard of any Korean herbs being wholesaled in the west.

> Does anyone know of any? They all seems to be the cheap, Chinese

> versions.

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think it would be a wonderful idea if someone anonymously complied a list

in which different herb qualities are matched against the various suppliers,

with the supplier being the best one that sold that particular herb. This

could be done geographically, i.e. a American, European, Australian, etc.

Different people could undertake to comply the different regions. It could

be sent to me and then I would upload it onto the files section of the

group, without giving the identity of the author away to anyone. This would

allow many inexperienced herbal practitioners the valuable 'inside'

knowledge of the different herbal qualities and where to buy them. This will

of course, be a great benefit to TCM worldwide.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

smilinglotus [smilinglotus]

28 December 2004 23:02

Chinese Medicine

Re: PC-SPES Court Finding: Implications for herbalists and

suppliers?

 

 

 

 

I think the biggest issue is that Westerners are rarely trained in

quality discernment of herbs and other medicinals. Consequently,

people tend to blindly trust well-known suppliers like mayway to

meet all their needs. Our Chinese counterparts know which herbs are

best purchased from which merchant, and they often order different

ingredients from different suppliers. While companies like mayway

often have generally good herbs, they have some that are of very

high quality and some that are of very average quality. Few of

their customers know how to differentiate which are the good ones

and which are the mediocre ones. Hardly any Westerners have ever

even seen real chen xiang or high-grade hou po, for example.

Because we don't know what to look for, we trust one major company,

even though only maybe 50% of their products are truly of superior

quality. Few Chinese merchants trained in pharmacy would buy

everything from one supplier- if you know what to look for, you buy

different things from different suppliers.

 

Many pharmacies and doctors write prescriptions with specific names

to indicate which grade they want the patient to buy. For example,

some pharmacies will dispense low-grade huang qi when huang qi is

written, but will dispense high-grade huang qi when hei jin qi is

written. Same with hou po vs. zheng chuan po, or shu di huang vs.

ge shu di. In China, all different grades and qualities are

available, you just need to know how to ask for the grade that you

seek. You also need to know where to buy which specific products.

Going to Beijing Tong Ren Tang can give you predictable quality, but

you will pay far more than you would if you know what to look for

and you shop around. There is no one source that is good for

everything.

 

As for only buying GMP factory products, they are well-tested,

consistent, and reliable. But a big factory never uses top-shelf

herbs. Top-shelf herbs are sold intact to the consumer. For the

best stuff, you have to use raw or prepare your own formulas. Many

expensive herbs have counterfeits, and buying something with a huge

variety in qualities and prices makes the novice buyer very

susceptible to being overcharged or completely ripped off.

 

Best,

Eric Brand.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/27/2004 2:36:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

gosh, I'm so surprised. We had all pretty much agreed here 5 years ago that

PC spes was

an unlabeled drug.

 

 

I am interested in searching the archives, but am not sure how to get

there. Could someone point me in the right direction?

 

Thanks,

 

Chris