Healing Crisis-txing yin xu and damp/phlegm

[Guest guest]

Hi Zev,

 

Thanks for writing. I'd like to know what your (and others)

experiences have been with tonifying yin and clearing dampness and

phlegm at the same time. My impression so far has been that when you

are clearing damp/phlegm you can protect the yin, but not actually

tonify it. What do you think?

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Laura,

> There is a simple answer to the example you give below; treat both

> the yin vacuity and damp phlegm at the same time. This is the hallmark

> of Li-Zhu medicine (Li Dongyuan, Zhu Danxi), which treats all

> concurrent patterns with the same herbal and point prescriptions. For

> example, a typical prescription given in the case you describe below is

> the /Jin shui liu jun jian/Six Gentlemen of Metal and Water, designed

> by Zhang Jingyue, which combines er chen tang/two aged peel decoction

> with dang gui and shu di huang. It is for kidney yin vacuity with damp

> phlegm in the upper burner. Traditional physicians also tried

> different strategies, such as preparing yin supplementing medicinals in

> honey pills so they would sink to the lower burner and digest more

> slowly, along with powdered herbs which digest quickly and float to the

> upper burner to transform phlegm.

>

>

>

>

> On Dec 18, 2004, at 5:21 PM, heylaurag wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I've thought a lot about this topic, and my opinion has been here,

> > there, and everywhere. At this point I think its all true:

> > 1.sometimes a " healing crisis " is just inaccurate points.

2.Sometimes

> > a " healing crisis " is when you are focusing on treating one thing at

> > the cost of another: a classic example would be someone with

both yin

> > deficiency and damp/phlegm. If you focus on clearing the damp/phlegm

> > they may feel better in some ways but have worse yin deficiency

> > symptoms. 3. Sometimes a healing crisis is actually the

phenomenon of

> > someone getting worse before they get better...I have two examples

> > that I often see in my clinic, one being a man with mental

illness who

> > always has emotions come up during the first evening after the

> > treatments, but then feels dramatically better emotionally by the

next

> > day. The other is the case of treating herpes--most of the time when

> > I do the shaoyang extraordinary vessel on someone with herpes they

> > will have an outbreak. But then they will have fewer outbreaks

in the

> > future.

> >

> > I do think that there are times when we have to warn our patients

that

> > in order to really go after a problem they may have to put up with

> > something. Its good to know when this is the case vs. that we just

> > need to adjust the treatment.....for instance, if someone feels

> > emotional after a treatment I generally choose to either clear more

> > heat or move more liver qi (or both) and that takes care of it.

> >

> > Laura

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Laura,

There is a fine line between protecting yin and supplementing it,

and both strategies can be used, depending on the circumstance. For

example, prescriptions such as liu yi san/six to one powder for

summerheat damp contains 6 parts hua shi/talcum, which disinhibits damp

heat, to one part gan cao/licorice, which protects yin fluids and qi,

but doesn't actually supplement yin to any degree. Dampness or phlegm

can also be subdivided, such as damp-heat, damp cold, phlegm-damp, dry

phlegm, heat phlegm, etc. Dampness or phlegm can be caused by spleen

qi vacuity, liver qi depression, kidney yin vacuity heat, and several

other combinations of patterns. The particular combination of patterns

will determine what strategy is used.

To conclude, yes, one can supplement kidney yin and resolve phlegm

at the same time if this is the pattern. Jin shui liu jun jian/Six

Gentlemen of Metal and Water is a prescription based on this strategy.

 

 

On Dec 19, 2004, at 6:57 PM, heylaurag wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi Zev,

>

> Thanks for writing.  I'd like to know what your (and others)

> experiences have been with tonifying yin and clearing dampness and

> phlegm at the same time.  My impression so far has been that when you

> are clearing damp/phlegm you can protect the yin, but not actually

> tonify it.  What do you think? 

>

> Laura

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " "

> <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > Laura,

> >     There is a simple answer to the example you give below;  treat

> both

> > the yin vacuity and damp phlegm at the same time.  This is the

> hallmark

> > of Li-Zhu medicine (Li Dongyuan, Zhu Danxi), which treats all

> > concurrent patterns with the same herbal and point prescriptions. 

> For

> > example, a typical prescription given in the case you describe

> below is

> > the /Jin shui liu jun jian/Six Gentlemen of Metal and Water,

> designed

> > by Zhang Jingyue, which combines er chen tang/two aged peel

> decoction

> > with dang gui and shu di huang.  It is for kidney yin vacuity with

> damp

> > phlegm in the upper burner.  Traditional physicians also tried

> > different strategies, such as preparing yin supplementing

> medicinals in

> > honey pills so they would sink to the lower burner and digest more

> > slowly, along with powdered herbs which digest quickly and float to

> the

> > upper burner to transform phlegm.

> >

> >

> >

> >