Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Hi Anne, We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or is it just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in ancient China and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better stage and so needed no mention? An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say about the 'healing crisis' in TCM? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] 18 December 2004 04:14 Chinese Medicine Re: Interesting after-effect of acupuncture. Nadia: Sorry - going through old mail and found your message. I'm not sure what replies you got. It sounds like you were having a healing crisis. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 I am confused by the statement that there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. Time and again I have seen and heard of this phenomenon taking place. It was even mentioned in a past issue of a peer-reviewed journal (NAJOM). This journal article (can't remember title) touched on the importance placed by the article's author on allowing the patient's body to eliminate. Patients were reported to get much better after they were allowed to go thru this. Other traditions have reported this concept as well. Homeopathy has a major theorum that deals with this and would even argue that one is not working towards healing if this does not occur. I believe it is a reality of health. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > > Healing Crisis >Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:53:48 -0000 > > >Hi Anne, > >We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. > >So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or is it >just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in ancient >China >and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better stage >and so needed no mention? > >An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say about >the >'healing crisis' in TCM? > >Kind regards > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM >07786198900 >attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > >Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] >18 December 2004 04:14 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Interesting after-effect of acupuncture. > > > > >Nadia: > >Sorry - going through old mail and found your message. I'm not sure >what replies you got. > >It sounds like you were having a healing crisis. > >Anne > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Attilio: There may be no " healing crisis " in TCM but there is in me and in my patients that I have seen. I think it has always been there in every ancient tradition, and maybe got left out in the TCM works. It may be implied or unspoken. A patient can go through a therapy session, talk about something extemely revealing, come out and be a mess for a few days - their energy has changed, and the body is adjusting. What is always nice in these situations is that you have a good practitioner or someone to support you. In the practitioner's case someone that knows how to ground you before leaving, leaves you with encouraging words, " you need to work through this and know that I am here for you if you need me. " I could keep going but other aspects of life are calling. Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > Hi Anne, > > We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. > > So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or > is it > just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in ancient > China > and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better stage > and so needed no mention? > > An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say > about the > 'healing crisis' in TCM? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] > 18 December 2004 04:14 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Interesting after-effect of acupuncture. > > > > > Nadia: > > Sorry - going through old mail and found your message. I'm not sure > what replies you got. > > It sounds like you were having a healing crisis. > > Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Mike -- The article IIRC was by Junji Mizutani who is not a TCM practitioner in the strict sense of the word (Zhong Yi / 8 parameter / PRC-style training). In Kampo medicine and other Japanese healing arts healing crisis or menken is a phenomenon which is commonly discussed. Whether Japanese or even Sino-Japanese medicine should be included in one's definition of TCM is fodder for a larger debate. BTW, i don't think NAJOM qualifies as peer-reviewed in the formal sense of the term, the criteria for inclusion is much less strict (i'm on the editorial staff). Happy to hear it cited here though take care, robert hayden Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > I am confused by the statement that there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. > Time and again I have seen and heard of this phenomenon taking place. It > was even mentioned in a past issue of a peer-reviewed journal (NAJOM). This > journal article (can't remember title) touched on the importance placed by > the article's author on allowing the patient's body to eliminate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 A few of my patients experienced the so-called ”healing crisis.” I am inclined to think that the “healing-crisis” was induced by me... wrong treatment or too strong stimulation/too many needles. I am more careful now in assessing my patients’ Qi and, in general, I try to use as few needles as possible.... I don’t see any “healing crisis” in my patients anymore..... and as Mr. D’Alberto informs there isn’t supposed to be a socalled “healing crisis,” but we all make mistakes and do wrong tratments, I guess... Best regards, Thomas Bogedal Sorensen WHRDA Lic. Instructor L.Ac. & TuiNa Massage Therapist Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 Den Mobile Akupunktør <http://acumobil.mu-in.com/> http://acumobil.mu-in.com --- Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto] 18. december 2004 11:54 Chinese Medicine Healing Crisis Hi Anne, We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or is it just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in ancient China and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better stage and so needed no mention? An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say about the 'healing crisis' in TCM? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] 18 December 2004 04:14 Chinese Medicine Re: Interesting after-effect of acupuncture. Nadia: Sorry - going through old mail and found your message. I'm not sure what replies you got. It sounds like you were having a healing crisis. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 The concept of menken/mengen/ming xuan in Kampo medicine dates to at least 1771, when Yoshimasu Todo wrote about it in Yakucho (Medical Indications). He alluded to it as being a much older concept. By contrast, Hahnemann published his first Organon in 1810. It's possible there was some Western medical influence in Japan before that (when did the Healing Crisis idea begin in the West, anyway?), but we're talking about roughly the same time frame as the Wen Bing classics which is firmly a part of TCM, so where do we draw the line. In any case, if Yoshimasu Todo or the other Koho-style Kampo physicians were influenced by WM concepts, it was very indirectly as 1) they took SHL as their text and formula corpus virtually exclusively even vs other CM influences (like Song-Jin-Yuan medicine and the He Ji Ju Fang) and 2) this period predated the Meiji reformation and it's installation of WM as the officially sanctioned system by about 100 years. rh Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > healing crisis or menken is a phenomenon which is commonly > discussed. > >>>>>>>Robert is it mentioned in older literature or only more modern. Many modern Japanese acupu dr have been influenced by German authors. Many modern ideas, which are discussed as acupuncture, are actually coming from neurotherapy, EAV, etc. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Hello everyone, What's interesting to me about the " no healing crisis in TCM " - is that my first experience with acupuncture.. the very first day of my very first treatment, my acupuncturist - an experienced Chinese woman with a successful clinic (8 treatment rooms, always packed) and doctorate from China - former dean of the Yo San clinic in Los Angeles and instructor at Yo San, made very clear to me that I would be getting worse before I got better. She did not use the term " healing crisis " but spent a good deal of time outlining to me what I would experience in the next couple of weeks. She mentioned that I would most likely get sick - she predicted a bad cold or flu in the next week or so, and sure enough, I had a terrible flu about a week later. Running a temperature of 103 for two days. I hadn't been sick like that in ten years, and I am definitely not prone to colds and flus. She described this, that first day, as the toxins being released from their blockages and circling about the body... another (as I learned later) non- TCM philosophy. And, as I've already outlined in a few other posts, I had a remarkably strong " getting worse " before better that included tremors for weeks, vertigo and severe emotional upheavals. When I first began my classes in acupuncture about a year later, I was told that there was no healing crisis in TCM. So I'm wondering if she mentioned that out of her own experience or if that was something that was taught to her formally in China. One day perhaps I will look her up and ask her. I am a believer in the " healing crisis " as well. My own experience was too powerful and too by the book (Hering's Law of Cure) for me to write it off. However, there may be something to the idea that a good acupuncturist can stay on top of the rapid changes of the body and amend the treatments accordingly so as to mediate the effects. And, thanks to Anne for your response to my healing crisis post. Best, Nadia >Message: 13 > Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:53:48 -0000 > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Healing Crisis > > >Hi Anne, > >We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. > >So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or is it >just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in ancient >China >and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better stage >and so needed no mention? > >An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say about >the >'healing crisis' in TCM? > >Kind regards > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM >07786198900 >attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Hi all, I've thought a lot about this topic, and my opinion has been here, there, and everywhere. At this point I think its all true: 1.sometimes a " healing crisis " is just inaccurate points. 2.Sometimes a " healing crisis " is when you are focusing on treating one thing at the cost of another: a classic example would be someone with both yin deficiency and damp/phlegm. If you focus on clearing the damp/phlegm they may feel better in some ways but have worse yin deficiency symptoms. 3. Sometimes a healing crisis is actually the phenomenon of someone getting worse before they get better...I have two examples that I often see in my clinic, one being a man with mental illness who always has emotions come up during the first evening after the treatments, but then feels dramatically better emotionally by the next day. The other is the case of treating herpes--most of the time when I do the shaoyang extraordinary vessel on someone with herpes they will have an outbreak. But then they will have fewer outbreaks in the future. I do think that there are times when we have to warn our patients that in order to really go after a problem they may have to put up with something. Its good to know when this is the case vs. that we just need to adjust the treatment.....for instance, if someone feels emotional after a treatment I generally choose to either clear more heat or move more liver qi (or both) and that takes care of it. Laura Chinese Medicine , " East Dakota " <eastdakota@h...> wrote: > > > Hello everyone, > > What's interesting to me about the " no healing crisis in TCM " - is that my > first experience with acupuncture.. the very first day of my very first > treatment, my acupuncturist - an experienced Chinese woman with a successful > clinic (8 treatment rooms, always packed) and doctorate from China - former > dean of the Yo San clinic in Los Angeles and instructor at Yo San, made very > clear to me that I would be getting worse before I got better. She did not > use the term " healing crisis " but spent a good deal of time outlining to me > what I would experience in the next couple of weeks. She mentioned that I > would most likely get sick - she predicted a bad cold or flu in the next > week or so, and sure enough, I had a terrible flu about a week later. > Running a temperature of 103 for two days. I hadn't been sick like that in > ten years, and I am definitely not prone to colds and flus. She described > this, that first day, as the toxins being released from their blockages and > circling about the body... another (as I learned later) non- TCM philosophy. > > And, as I've already outlined in a few other posts, I had a remarkably > strong " getting worse " before better that included tremors for weeks, > vertigo and severe emotional upheavals. > > When I first began my classes in acupuncture about a year later, I was told > that there was no healing crisis in TCM. So I'm wondering if she mentioned > that out of her own experience or if that was something that was taught to > her formally in China. One day perhaps I will look her up and ask her. > > I am a believer in the " healing crisis " as well. My own experience was too > powerful and too by the book (Hering's Law of Cure) for me to write it off. > However, there may be something to the idea that a good acupuncturist can > stay on top of the rapid changes of the body and amend the treatments > accordingly so as to mediate the effects. > > And, thanks to Anne for your response to my healing crisis post. > > Best, > Nadia > > >Message: 13 > > Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:53:48 -0000 > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> > >Healing Crisis > > > > > >Hi Anne, > > > >We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. > > > >So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or is it > >just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in ancient > >China > >and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better stage > >and so needed no mention? > > > >An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say about > >the > >'healing crisis' in TCM? > > > >Kind regards > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > >07786198900 > >attiliodalberto > > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 'Healing crisis' is just a description adapted from Western naturopathic methods onto disease processes, and adapted by some Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. Chinese medical texts, such as the Wen Bing corpus, Shang Han Lun, and Jin Gui Yao Lue discuss very complex transformations of disease states, some of which may resemble the healing crisis, but none are described as such. It has more to do with states of change in a dynamic process, based on progression through the channels towards the interior (worsening condition) or the exterior (improving condition). It is essential to study these texts to understand the progression and transformation of disease processes in Chinese medicine. On Dec 18, 2004, at 2:53 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > Hi Anne, > > We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in > TCM. > > So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or > is it > just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in > ancient China > and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better > stage > and so needed no mention? > > An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say > about the > 'healing crisis' in TCM? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Mike, Side effects of treatment are not considered to be tolerable in Chinese medicine. Therefore, for a patient to get worse is not a good sign, even temporarily. Treatment methods are divided between attacking evils (gong xie) and supplementation (bu fa). Attacking includes ejection (vomiting), precipitation (causing bowel movement), sweating, disinhibiting urination, and clearing heat or fire. There are specific methods for each, and specific criteria for using these methods. If there are any negative responses, it means wrong treatment methods, such as draining vacuity or supplementing repletion. It is true that homeopathy causes aggravations and healing crises, but it is based on a different praxis. The goal of classical homeopathy is to create an 'image' of the original disease, which will be re-experienced before it is eliminated from the system. I believe it is possible that acupuncture/moxabustion can possibly create such a scenario, especially when using the eight extraordinary vessels, especially on an emotional level. However, I have not been able to find such a description of healing crisis applied to this, in any of the classical acupuncture texts. Let's own up to what Chinese medicine actually describes and teaches, rather than superimposing other ideas on it. These limitations may be desirable or not, but we should recognize them and move from there. On Dec 18, 2004, at 6:52 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > I am confused by the statement that there is no 'healing crisis' in > TCM. > Time and again I have seen and heard of this phenomenon taking > place. It > was even mentioned in a past issue of a peer-reviewed journal > (NAJOM). This > journal article (can't remember title) touched on the importance > placed by > the article's author on allowing the patient's body to eliminate. > Patients > were reported to get much better after they were allowed to go thru > this. > Other traditions have reported this concept as well. Homeopathy has > a major > theorum that deals with this and would even argue that one is not > working > towards healing if this does not occur. I believe it is a reality of > health. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 There are parallels to Hering's Law of Cure in Chinese medicine. For example, in chapter one of the Jin gui yao lue/Prescriptions From the Golden Cabinet, it says the following: " Wet spreading sores that flow from the mouth to the four limbs can be treated, while those that flow from the limbs to the mouth cannot be treated. When the disease is in the exterior, it can be treated; when it enters the interior, the patient may die " . In other words, evils moving outwards are easier to treat, moving inward are difficult to treat. However, we need to stick to one model of treatment, and not be eclectic (i.e. use different philosophies at the same time). In other words, when doing homeopathy, use homeopathic theory. When doing Chinese medicine, use CM theory. Don't mix them up and create confusion. Also, it is difficult to master so many modalities. I love homeopathy, but I gave up its practice 15 years ago when I discovered it would take the rest of my life to devote to it. I couldn't serve 'two masters', so I chose Chinese medicine. On Dec 18, 2004, at 1:07 PM, East Dakota wrote: > > I am a believer in the " healing crisis " as well. My own experience > was too > powerful and too by the book (Hering's Law of Cure) for me to write > it off. > However, there may be something to the idea that a good acupuncturist > can > stay on top of the rapid changes of the body and amend the treatments > accordingly so as to mediate the effects. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Interesting, although Todo was quite unique in his approach to medicine. He basically denied the theories of yin yang, five phases, and most of the classics (except the Shang Han Lun). Robert, could you send me the pinyin with tones, or the characters, so I can research possible Chinese sources for this concept (ming xuan)? Secondly, are you talking about Todo's ideas of expelling 'poison' or toxin, and the reactions that occur when this happens? Can you quote a few lines from his work? I'm very interested in this subject, and would like to know more. On Dec 18, 2004, at 10:48 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > The concept of menken/mengen/ming xuan in Kampo medicine dates to at > least 1771, > when Yoshimasu Todo wrote about it in Yakucho (Medical Indications). > He alluded to it as > being a much older concept. By contrast, Hahnemann published his > first Organon in 1810. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Hi Zev, Interesting response. Contraditions are common in Chinese medicine as we all know. The phenomenon that many have reported is important as it appears that many others have had similar experiences. I do not think that these are simply too aggressive or poor quality treatment. I would, however, challenge us to think about the possibility that we (meaning westerners) have a lot of competing patterns going on all at the same time and that acu may actually be causing discomfort due to moving this qi. Or maybe it is forcing the person to eliminate pathogenic qi out of the body. I would like to know more about this from the ancient Japanes writing that Mr. Hayden eludes too as well. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Healing Crisis >Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:10:38 -0800 > >Mike, > Side effects of treatment are not considered to be tolerable in >Chinese medicine. Therefore, for a patient to get worse is not a good >sign, even temporarily. Treatment methods are divided between >attacking evils (gong xie) and supplementation (bu fa). Attacking >includes ejection (vomiting), precipitation (causing bowel movement), >sweating, disinhibiting urination, and clearing heat or fire. There >are specific methods for each, and specific criteria for using these >methods. If there are any negative responses, it means wrong treatment >methods, such as draining vacuity or supplementing repletion. > It is true that homeopathy causes aggravations and healing crises, >but it is based on a different praxis. The goal of classical >homeopathy is to create an 'image' of the original disease, which will >be re-experienced before it is eliminated from the system. > I believe it is possible that acupuncture/moxabustion can possibly >create such a scenario, especially when using the eight extraordinary >vessels, especially on an emotional level. However, I have not been >able to find such a description of healing crisis applied to this, in >any of the classical acupuncture texts. > Let's own up to what Chinese medicine actually describes and >teaches, rather than superimposing other ideas on it. These >limitations may be desirable or not, but we should recognize them and >move from there. > > >On Dec 18, 2004, at 6:52 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > I am confused by the statement that there is no 'healing crisis' in > > TCM. > > Time and again I have seen and heard of this phenomenon taking > > place. It > > was even mentioned in a past issue of a peer-reviewed journal > > (NAJOM). This > > journal article (can't remember title) touched on the importance > > placed by > > the article's author on allowing the patient's body to eliminate. > > Patients > > were reported to get much better after they were allowed to go thru > > this. > > Other traditions have reported this concept as well. Homeopathy has > > a major > > theorum that deals with this and would even argue that one is not > > working > > towards healing if this does not occur. I believe it is a reality of > > health. Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > >Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine >Pacific College of Oriental Medicine >San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Sometimes a patient just needs to eliminate before they get better. Whether the toxins (my usage) are of outside nature or produced within they need to go before one can get better. I think we tend to overlook the patient in the healing process. People today are very sick due to a lot of unnatural poisons (petrochem) that were not around when these texts were written. People's reactions to modern life may exhibit some differences as well. What affect do vaccines have that stifle the full expression of an illness? Food for thought. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Healing Crisis >Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:00:25 -0800 > >'Healing crisis' is just a description adapted from Western >naturopathic methods onto disease processes, and adapted by some >Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. Chinese medical texts, such >as the Wen Bing corpus, Shang Han Lun, and Jin Gui Yao Lue discuss very >complex transformations of disease states, some of which may resemble >the healing crisis, but none are described as such. It has more to do >with states of change in a dynamic process, based on progression >through the channels towards the interior (worsening condition) or the >exterior (improving condition). It is essential to study these texts >to understand the progression and transformation of disease processes >in Chinese medicine. > > >On Dec 18, 2004, at 2:53 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > > > > Hi Anne, > > > > We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in > > TCM. > > > > So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or > > is it > > just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in > > ancient China > > and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better > > stage > > and so needed no mention? > > > > An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say > > about the > > 'healing crisis' in TCM? > > > > Kind regards > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Z'ev, Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Robert, could you send me the pinyin with tones, or the characters, so > I can research possible Chinese sources for this concept (ming xuan)? Ming2 Xuan4 -- Wiseman & Boss' Glossary has Ming2 as " heavy eye; caligo " and Xuan4 as " dizziness " . Shinjiro Kanazawa, whose article i quote from below, translates it as " vertigo " but the larger meaning is a benign healing reaction. > > Secondly, are you talking about Todo's ideas of expelling 'poison' or > toxin, and the reactions that occur when this happens? Can you quote a > few lines from his work? I'm very interested in this subject, and > would like to know more. > Again, from Kanazawa, translating Yoshimasu Todo's Yakucho, in NAJOM Vol10 No29, Nov 2003: <<Another big argument against Todo's theory was about " men-gen (ming xuan; vertigo). In the preface to Todo's herbal indication book, Yaku-cho (Medical Indications, 1771), he wrote, " The classic says that if medicine does not cause men-gen, illness will not be cured. The Zhou Dynasty official said, 'the doctor collects and utilizes poisonous medicine according to the law of medicine'. If we study this word, we realize that medicine is the doku (poison)(nb:du2-toxin -rh) and illness is the doku, too. We utilize the doku of medicine to attack the doku of illness. That is why men-gen happens. " >> For any further inquiry into this i'd defer to your friend Mr Kanazawa, to whom we are indebted for his tireless efforts in bringing Kampo history to light in English. I do wonder what classic Todo was quoting, as i can't imagine this concept sprang solely from him; however his influence on Japanese medicine was quite profound, and mengen is a phenomenon commonly cited across a broad spectrum of Japanese traditional medicine writings, from Kampo to shiatsu to moxibustion texts. You yourself have in the past noted some similarity in Todo's style to Zhang Cong Cheng's attack and purge school; i wonder if there isn't some mention there of a healing crisis phenomena? Since the emphasis in the West is largely on supplementing and harmonizing, Li Dong Yuan and Zhu Dan Xi have both been translated, but AFAIK we have nothing of Zhang Cong Zheng (or Liu Wan Su for that matter). Todo had studied Jin Yuan medicine prior to rejecting it (for that matter he rejected parts of SHL/JGYL that he disagreed with), i wonder if there isn't some lingering gong xia theory in his mengen emphasis. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 healing crisis or menken is a phenomenon which is commonly discussed. >>>>>>>Robert is it mentioned in older literature or only more modern. Many modern Japanese acupu dr have been influenced by German authors. Many modern ideas, which are discussed as acupuncture, are actually coming from neurotherapy, EAV, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:53:48 -0000, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > … there is no 'healing crisis' in TCM. The term 'healing crisis' may or may not belong to (originate with) homeopathy or whatever. I don't know. Discussing homeopathy or naturopathy extensively doesn't interest me here. What we are talking about seems to be progressions of patients' reactions that are uniformly positive or improving. Certainly improper Dx or Tx is to be considered. Sat, 18 Dec 2004 13:07:23 -0800, " East Dakota " <eastdakota added: >…an experienced Chinese woman … doctorate from China - former dean of the Yo San clinic in Los Angeles and instructor at Yo San, made very clear to me that I would be getting worse before I got better …. She described this, that first day, as the toxins being released from their blockages and circling about the body... another (as I learned later) non- TCM philosophy. Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:00:25 -0800, " " <zrosenbe adds: > [some classical Chinese texts] discuss very complex transformations of disease states, some of which may resemble the healing crisis, but none are described as such. It has more to do with states of change in a dynamic process, based on progression through the channels towards the interior (worsening condition) or the exterior (improving condition). but in a subsequent message: >… for a patient to get worse is not a good sign, even temporarily. There's a subtle distinction of terms. Is Tx induced vomiting or purging, or sweating 'getting worse " , or negative side-effects? As to CCM (TCM?) traditions: Gong Xia Pai - School of attacking and purging (12th century). Four excerpts from Ju-men shih-ch'in, by Chang ZiHe (found in Unschuld, Medicine in China: …Ideas, pp 321-324. Case 1: Tx " produced twenty violent occurrences of diarrhea. Blood, water, and clotted blood became separated, and several sheng [of these substances] were discharged. As a result, [the patient] recovered. " Case 2: [1st Rx] causing [the patient] to vomit, and eliminated in this manner 70 percent [of the illness]. [2nd Tx] thereby emptying the intestines five to seven times. By the next morning [the condition] was eliminated. " Case 3: [Rx] will cause [the patient] to vomit and to defecate once… [the condition] will cease. " Case 4: " After three repetitions of vomiting, purgation, and sweating, [the condition] disappeared in fewer than ten days. " All four samples presented by Unschuld indicate somewhat extreme patient reactions. Did Unschuld select for this? It's possible. But Jeffery Yuen's exposition of gongxiapai methodology (i,e, my source, not having read Chang or his followers myself) indicates that basically that's how this classical system works. Are these event to be considered 'getting worse'? In general, Jeffery has made the point that many facets of classical CM - the 'classics' roughly prior to the Ming era - use what he calls a 'supportive' principle of therapy, meaning supporting the patient through a process of resolution, often with temporary effects which could be considered 'worsening', or at least increasing discomfort. The supportive principle is juxtaposed to a 'repressive' principle of therapy, which we recognize in WM (vaccines and antibiotics), that also became more prominent in CM during and subsequent to the Ming era. E.g. a Wen Bing approach to serious epidemic infections, which, as emergency situations, require repressive therapy. He (Jeffery) brings this out in classical pediatrics, where the allowance and resolution of childhood diseases (mumps, measles, etc.) is a healthy development, resolving 'fetal toxins'. Repressing these (e.g. vaccines) can drive them inward into latency, only to emerge later in life as things like chronic generative conditions, and when the body lacks the robust yang of childhood with which to effectively deal with it. As Ze'v put it, understanding and using " states of change in a dynamic process " appears to be a well-documented classical CM approach. TCM, in practice, is sometimes overly influenced by its Western models to just expeditiously resolve the symptoms, albeit via pattern differentiation. Jeffery mentioned at one point that the mainstay Atx points used in TCM protocols are selected largely from points used classically in more acute, emergency situations. I.e. they can produce quick and dramatic effects. Perhaps there's an historical interplay with the ideas behind the barefoot doctor phenomenon. In another area, Jeffery teaches classical sinew (jinjing, tendino-muscular) channel therapeutics using, among other treatment principles, 'releases' which involve encouraging muscular symptoms, e.g. tension, spasms, to go to an extreme, and thereby 'release' into their opposite state, as in extreme yin or yang flipping into each other. I'm currently trying something similar with a " fibromyalgia " patient, allowing and encouraging the limbs to tighten and spasm over 2-hour+ treatments (the patient is constitutionally quite strong and fit). Letting the wind blow, so to speak, and seeing where it leads. So far it has resulted in loosening up the condition somewhat, with more various periods of relief and relapse. It has also led to awakening memories of forgotten injuries (decades ago) in the affected areas. (The condition is some 30 years old.) As much as I, too, find the term 'healing crisis' distasteful (because of new-age over usage), my semi-educated impression is that Chinese medical traditions document substantially comparable ideas, which are by no means obsolete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Robert That seems older than the European idea, I believe. When I am referring to German influence I am talking about modern times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 It may well be that the healing crisis was never separated in ancient China and isolated as it is today because of homeopathy. I have seen the 'healing crisis' or a sift in homeostasis states in various people including myself. When I gave up smoking, a few days after I was coughing up excessive phlegm, had a sore throat and nasal discharge. Was this a healing crisis? Or was it the fact that after I had stopped introducing evil Qi in the form of Fire and smoke into my lungs, my genuine Qi, which had been battling the evil Qi to a state of stalemate, now had the chance to win over the evil Qi, remove it and restore the Lung's original health before smoking had started. The sore throat is the result of genuine Qi fighting the evil Qi and winning, the phlegm is the yin fluid turning into phlegm as a result of extended fighting. The nasal discharge is the Lung Qi removing Evil Qi. Therefore the healing crisis may be the result of the fight between genuine Qi and evil Qi until a healthy balance has been restored. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] 19 December 2004 04:07 Chinese Medicine Re: Healing Crisis Sometimes a patient just needs to eliminate before they get better. Whether the toxins (my usage) are of outside nature or produced within they need to go before one can get better. I think we tend to overlook the patient in the healing process. People today are very sick due to a lot of unnatural poisons (petrochem) that were not around when these texts were written. People's reactions to modern life may exhibit some differences as well. What affect do vaccines have that stifle the full expression of an illness? Food for thought. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Healing Crisis >Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:00:25 -0800 > >'Healing crisis' is just a description adapted from Western >naturopathic methods onto disease processes, and adapted by some >Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. Chinese medical texts, such >as the Wen Bing corpus, Shang Han Lun, and Jin Gui Yao Lue discuss very >complex transformations of disease states, some of which may resemble >the healing crisis, but none are described as such. It has more to do >with states of change in a dynamic process, based on progression >through the channels towards the interior (worsening condition) or the >exterior (improving condition). It is essential to study these texts >to understand the progression and transformation of disease processes >in Chinese medicine. > > >On Dec 18, 2004, at 2:53 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > > > > Hi Anne, > > > > We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in > > TCM. > > > > So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or > > is it > > just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in > > ancient China > > and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better > > stage > > and so needed no mention? > > > > An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say > > about the > > 'healing crisis' in TCM? > > > > Kind regards > > > > Attilio D'Alberto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Laura, There is a simple answer to the example you give below; treat both the yin vacuity and damp phlegm at the same time. This is the hallmark of Li-Zhu medicine (Li Dongyuan, Zhu Danxi), which treats all concurrent patterns with the same herbal and point prescriptions. For example, a typical prescription given in the case you describe below is the /Jin shui liu jun jian/Six Gentlemen of Metal and Water, designed by Zhang Jingyue, which combines er chen tang/two aged peel decoction with dang gui and shu di huang. It is for kidney yin vacuity with damp phlegm in the upper burner. Traditional physicians also tried different strategies, such as preparing yin supplementing medicinals in honey pills so they would sink to the lower burner and digest more slowly, along with powdered herbs which digest quickly and float to the upper burner to transform phlegm. On Dec 18, 2004, at 5:21 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I've thought a lot about this topic, and my opinion has been here, > there, and everywhere. At this point I think its all true: > 1.sometimes a " healing crisis " is just inaccurate points. 2.Sometimes > a " healing crisis " is when you are focusing on treating one thing at > the cost of another: a classic example would be someone with both yin > deficiency and damp/phlegm. If you focus on clearing the damp/phlegm > they may feel better in some ways but have worse yin deficiency > symptoms. 3. Sometimes a healing crisis is actually the phenomenon of > someone getting worse before they get better...I have two examples > that I often see in my clinic, one being a man with mental illness who > always has emotions come up during the first evening after the > treatments, but then feels dramatically better emotionally by the next > day. The other is the case of treating herpes--most of the time when > I do the shaoyang extraordinary vessel on someone with herpes they > will have an outbreak. But then they will have fewer outbreaks in the > future. > > I do think that there are times when we have to warn our patients that > in order to really go after a problem they may have to put up with > something. Its good to know when this is the case vs. that we just > need to adjust the treatment.....for instance, if someone feels > emotional after a treatment I generally choose to either clear more > heat or move more liver qi (or both) and that takes care of it. > > Laura > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Sounds plausible, Attilio. Thanks for that view of it. Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > It may well be that the healing crisis was never separated in ancient > China > and isolated as it is today because of homeopathy. > > I have seen the 'healing crisis' or a sift in homeostasis states in > various > people including myself. When I gave up smoking, a few days after I was > coughing up excessive phlegm, had a sore throat and nasal discharge. Was > this a healing crisis? Or was it the fact that after I had stopped > introducing evil Qi in the form of Fire and smoke into my lungs, my > genuine > Qi, which had been battling the evil Qi to a state of stalemate, now > had the > chance to win over the evil Qi, remove it and restore the Lung's original > health before smoking had started. The sore throat is the result of > genuine > Qi fighting the evil Qi and winning, the phlegm is the yin fluid turning > into phlegm as a result of extended fighting. The nasal discharge is the > Lung Qi removing Evil Qi. Therefore the healing crisis may be the > result of > the fight between genuine Qi and evil Qi until a healthy balance has been > restored. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] > 19 December 2004 04:07 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Healing Crisis > > > > Sometimes a patient just needs to eliminate before they get better. > Whether > > the toxins (my usage) are of outside nature or produced within they > need to > go before one can get better. I think we tend to overlook the patient in > the healing process. People today are very sick due to a lot of > unnatural > poisons (petrochem) that were not around when these texts were written. > People's reactions to modern life may exhibit some differences as well. > What affect do vaccines have that stifle the full expression of an > illness? > > Food for thought. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > " " <zrosenbe > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: Healing Crisis > >Sat, 18 Dec 2004 18:00:25 -0800 > > > >'Healing crisis' is just a description adapted from Western > >naturopathic methods onto disease processes, and adapted by some > >Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. Chinese medical texts, such > >as the Wen Bing corpus, Shang Han Lun, and Jin Gui Yao Lue discuss very > >complex transformations of disease states, some of which may resemble > >the healing crisis, but none are described as such. It has more to do > >with states of change in a dynamic process, based on progression > >through the channels towards the interior (worsening condition) or the > >exterior (improving condition). It is essential to study these texts > >to understand the progression and transformation of disease processes > >in Chinese medicine. > > > > > >On Dec 18, 2004, at 2:53 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Anne, > > > > > > We discussed this some time ago, but there is no 'healing crisis' in > > > TCM. > > > > > > So what is it then? Does the body get worse before it gets better? Or > > > is it > > > just clearing itself out of bad Qi? Was this every detected in > > > ancient China > > > and discussed or was it simply viewed as part of the getting better > > > stage > > > and so needed no mention? > > > > > > An interesting topic to debate I think. What do others have to say > > > about the > > > 'healing crisis' in TCM? > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Mike, There are lots of treatment methods/strategies in Chinese medicine that could be applied to such problems, such as latent qi theory, which deals latent evils/pathogens that are embedded deep in the body. I agree that vaccines may stifle the immune response of individuals, and that we need to deal with this in our practices. But why adapt the naturopathic term 'healing crisis' or mix in other therapies before examining the tools of our own profession first? We've just scratched the surface of Chinese medicine in the West. On Dec 18, 2004, at 8:07 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Sometimes a patient just needs to eliminate before they get better. > Whether > the toxins (my usage) are of outside nature or produced within they > need to > go before one can get better. I think we tend to overlook the > patient in > the healing process. People today are very sick due to a lot of > unnatural > poisons (petrochem) that were not around when these texts were > written. > People's reactions to modern life may exhibit some differences as > well. > What affect do vaccines have that stifle the full expression of an > illness? > Food for thought. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I am really enjoying this discussion! I think this type of dialogue is just what the profession needs! I agree, Mr. Kanazawa has done a lot of great work in translating Japanese and Chinese medical texts, and I hope he will continue to do so. What is interesting here is the use of the concept " yi du yao gong xie " or employ toxic medicinals to attack disease, or fight toxin with toxin. This is clearly an allopathic concept, and was the root of Paracelsus' approach to treatment of disease. As he pointed out, poisonous substances ingested tended to drive out disease toxins, such as using mercury/calomel to treat syphilis. The Chinese also developed this approach much earlier, using such medicines as liu shen wan/six miracle pill, containing toad venom and arsenic, to treat ru e/baby moth, a condition of painful, swollen tonsils and throat with discharge of pus. However, I don't know if this applies to the concept of healing crisis. In using mercury for syphilis, there were strong toxic reactions to the medication, which led to the body 'purging' the disease evil, but would the body's reaction to the drug be a 'healing crisis'? However, when studying the Chinese materia medica, notice how few prescriptions use this approach. And a toxic action is still considered to be undesirable. On Dec 18, 2004, at 8:23 PM, kampo36 wrote: > > Again, from Kanazawa, translating Yoshimasu Todo's Yakucho, in NAJOM > Vol10 No29, Nov > 2003: > > <<Another big argument against Todo's theory was about " men-gen (ming > xuan; vertigo). > In the preface to Todo's herbal indication book, Yaku-cho (Medical > Indications, 1771), he > wrote, " The classic says that if medicine does not cause men-gen, > illness will not be cured. > The Zhou Dynasty official said, 'the doctor collects and utilizes > poisonous medicine > according to the law of medicine'. If we study this word, we realize > that medicine is the > doku (poison)(nb:du2-toxin -rh) and illness is the doku, too. We > utilize the doku of > medicine to attack the doku of illness. That is why men-gen > happens. " >> > > For any further inquiry into this i'd defer to your friend Mr > Kanazawa, to whom we are > indebted for his tireless efforts in bringing Kampo history to light > in English. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I share your speculation about Todo's influence from the gong xie pai/attack and draining school. The only translated material from Zhang Cong-zheng (Zhi-he) is in " Rheumatology in , pg. 333-46. I do know that his school is a 'minority opinion' in Chinese medicine, never adapted as mainstream practice. He was soundly criticized by both Li Dongyuan and Zhu Dan xi for using methods that damaged the correct qi and the spleen/stomach. Zhang Zhong-jing, author of the Shang Han Lun cautioned against using inappropriate attack methods, as they would lead to more complicated conditions (transmuted patterns). On Dec 18, 2004, at 8:23 PM, kampo36 wrote: > > You yourself have in the past noted some similarity in Todo's style > to Zhang Cong Cheng's > attack and purge school; i wonder if there isn't some mention there > of a healing crisis > phenomena? Since the emphasis in the West is largely on > supplementing and > harmonizing, Li Dong Yuan and Zhu Dan Xi have both been translated, > but AFAIK we have > nothing of Zhang Cong Zheng (or Liu Wan Su for that matter). Todo had > studied Jin Yuan > medicine prior to rejecting it (for that matter he rejected parts of > SHL/JGYL that he > disagreed with), i wonder if there isn't some lingering gong xia > theory in his mengen > emphasis. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 In twenty-three years of practice, I've had very few cases that I could call 'healing crises', but that may be tied to different definitions of the term. As far as competing patterns going on at the same time, Li-Zhu medicine encourages us to treat all of the concurrent patterns at the same time, to avoid the phenomenon of xiang sheng/mutual generation via five phases. This means that if we only resolve one pattern in a mutually reinforcing situation of several patterns, the other patterns will recreate the disharmony again. On Dec 18, 2004, at 7:59 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Hi Zev, > Interesting response. Contraditions are common in Chinese medicine as > we > all know. The phenomenon that many have reported is important as it > appears > that many others have had similar experiences. I do not think that > these > are simply too aggressive or poor quality treatment. I would, however, > challenge us to think about the possibility that we (meaning > westerners) > have a lot of competing patterns going on all at the same time and > that acu > may actually be causing discomfort due to moving this qi. Or maybe it > is > forcing the person to eliminate pathogenic qi out of the body. I > would like > to know more about this from the ancient Japanes writing that Mr. > Hayden > eludes too as well. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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