Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical safety requirements. I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful sensation. I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap the skin. Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Robert, > I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me out > here? > > > > On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:23 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > > > > > > The best needles i've used come from Maeda, which has been in the > > business of making > > needles for 300 years (N sensei from Toyohari assn told me that > > Seirin was originally a > > petrochemical company, hence the plastic handles). I've still got a > > stash of silver and > > stainless needles i bought a few years back, but at 25 yen per needle > > they make Seirins > > and Acuglides look cheap in comparison. They are excellent needles, > > though, no doubt > > about that. > > > > rh > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > > >I used to get great needles from Ido Nippon-Sha a number of years ago > > > with metal handles, in all lengths and gauges. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Attillio, I've visited the HwaTo factory in Suzhou, together with a group of Belgian acupuncturists. None of us bought anything. We were not that impressed by the standards of the factory, including hygienic standards. The sharpening was done manually by people in quite filthy clothes. The employees would sit there with a bunch of needles in their hand and sharpen them like that against a rotating stone (I think). We all wondered how one would be able to produce standardized needles like that. Is that the way it's been done everywhere? Is there no mechanization process? I thought I had some pictures but I cannot find them anymore. " Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. " I hardly ever use a guiding tube. Wouldn't that be a nice poll question? Is it possible that there is a difference between US and Europe and China. In China people never use tubes, and I haven't met many Europeans that do use them. But it seems that in the US tubes are standard? Tom. ---- 12/17/04 02:06:53 Chinese Medicine AP Needles Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical safety requirements. I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful sensation. I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap the skin. Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Robert, > I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me out > here? > > > > On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:23 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > > > > > > The best needles i've used come from Maeda, which has been in the > > business of making > > needles for 300 years (N sensei from Toyohari assn told me that > > Seirin was originally a > > petrochemical company, hence the plastic handles). I've still got a > > stash of silver and > > stainless needles i bought a few years back, but at 25 yen per needle > > they make Seirins > > and Acuglides look cheap in comparison. They are excellent needles, > > though, no doubt > > about that. > > > > rh > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > > >I used to get great needles from Ido Nippon-Sha a number of years ago > > > with metal handles, in all lengths and gauges. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 I rarely use a guide tube. I find I can get to the qi easier without it. When I use it I have to insert more than once. Anne wrote: > > Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in > the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are > also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine > that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical > safety requirements. > > I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used > before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful > sensation. > > I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue > needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful > as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and > place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap > the skin. > > Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many > without tubes? Would be interesting to know. > > Attilio > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Robert, > > I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me > out > > here? > > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:23 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The best needles i've used come from Maeda, which has been in > the > > > business of making > > > needles for 300 years (N sensei from Toyohari assn told me that > > > Seirin was originally a > > > petrochemical company, hence the plastic handles). I've still > got a > > > stash of silver and > > > stainless needles i bought a few years back, but at 25 yen per > needle > > > they make Seirins > > > and Acuglides look cheap in comparison. They are excellent > needles, > > > though, no doubt > > > about that. > > > > > > rh > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " > > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > > > > >I used to get great needles from Ido Nippon-Sha a number of > years ago > > > > with metal handles, in all lengths and gauges. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hi Attilio > How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? > Would be interesting to know. Attilio in dogs & humans, I use 30-gauge Huato needles + plastic guide tubes. In horses, I use 70mm Terumo 20-gauge hypodermic needles, inserted very swiftly; these have no guide tubes, but I sometimes use counterpressure from the plastic needle-holder on the point when inserting over very sensitive areas. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hi Tom, They hand sharpen the needles, are you serious? I knew that China was labour intensive, but this seems a little OTT and not really standardised. Yes, I think I may set up a poll and see how many do use tubes or not. I think that it's regulation to use tubes in the UK. Does anyone in the UK know for sure about this? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Tom Verhaeghe [verhaeghe_tom] 16 December 2004 23:39 Chinese Medicine Re: AP Needles Attillio, I've visited the HwaTo factory in Suzhou, together with a group of Belgian acupuncturists. None of us bought anything. We were not that impressed by the standards of the factory, including hygienic standards. The sharpening was done manually by people in quite filthy clothes. The employees would sit there with a bunch of needles in their hand and sharpen them like that against a rotating stone (I think). We all wondered how one would be able to produce standardized needles like that. Is that the way it's been done everywhere? Is there no mechanization process? I thought I had some pictures but I cannot find them anymore. " Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. " I hardly ever use a guiding tube. Wouldn't that be a nice poll question? Is it possible that there is a difference between US and Europe and China. In China people never use tubes, and I haven't met many Europeans that do use them. But it seems that in the US tubes are standard? Tom. ---- 12/17/04 02:06:53 Chinese Medicine AP Needles Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical safety requirements. I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful sensation. I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap the skin. Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Robert, > I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me out > here? > > > > On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:23 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > > > > > > The best needles i've used come from Maeda, which has been in the > > business of making > > needles for 300 years (N sensei from Toyohari assn told me that > > Seirin was originally a > > petrochemical company, hence the plastic handles). I've still got a > > stash of silver and > > stainless needles i bought a few years back, but at 25 yen per needle > > they make Seirins > > and Acuglides look cheap in comparison. They are excellent needles, > > though, no doubt > > about that. > > > > rh > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > > >I used to get great needles from Ido Nippon-Sha a number of years ago > > > with metal handles, in all lengths and gauges. > > > > > > Z'ev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Guide tubes are best employed when using thin needles or needles made of soft metal. These needles bend easily and the tube helps to prevent this. Best wishes, Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] Friday, 17 December 2004 2:26 PM Chinese Medicine Re: AP Needles I rarely use a guide tube. I find I can get to the qi easier without it. When I use it I have to insert more than once. Anne wrote: > > Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in > the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are > also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine > that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical > safety requirements. > > I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used > before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful > sensation. > > I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue > needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful > as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and > place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap > the skin. > > Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many > without tubes? Would be interesting to know. > > Attilio > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Robert, > > I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me > out > > here? > > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:23 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The best needles i've used come from Maeda, which has been in > the > > > business of making > > > needles for 300 years (N sensei from Toyohari assn told me that > > > Seirin was originally a > > > petrochemical company, hence the plastic handles). I've still > got a > > > stash of silver and > > > stainless needles i bought a few years back, but at 25 yen per > needle > > > they make Seirins > > > and Acuglides look cheap in comparison. They are excellent > needles, > > > though, no doubt > > > about that. > > > > > > rh > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " > > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > > > > >I used to get great needles from Ido Nippon-Sha a number of > years ago > > > > with metal handles, in all lengths and gauges. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Yes, I was serious, Attilio. There are 4 or 5 people doing nothing else, the whole day. They're wearing iron gloves to protect themselves from the needles. The place was not clean at all, especially that room. I'm sorry I cannot find those pictures. Wages are so cheap, I think they maybe pay them like 1000 rmb per month, at the most. The thread at the handle of the needle is also wound by hand. A room full of women (about 30 women, I guess), doing nothing else all day. Maybe they're under pressure to keep providing those jobs and not mechanize, who knows? Yes, a poll would be nice. In Belgium I only know of one person who uses tubes. The rest does not use them. Regards Tom. ---- Attilio D'Alberto 12/17/04 19:49:13 Chinese Medicine RE: AP Needles Hi Tom, They hand sharpen the needles, are you serious? I knew that China was labour intensive, but this seems a little OTT and not really standardised. Yes, I think I may set up a poll and see how many do use tubes or not. I think that it's regulation to use tubes in the UK. Does anyone in the UK know for sure about this? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Tom Verhaeghe [verhaeghe_tom] 16 December 2004 23:39 Chinese Medicine Re: AP Needles Attillio, I've visited the HwaTo factory in Suzhou, together with a group of Belgian acupuncturists. None of us bought anything. We were not that impressed by the standards of the factory, including hygienic standards. The sharpening was done manually by people in quite filthy clothes. The employees would sit there with a bunch of needles in their hand and sharpen them like that against a rotating stone (I think). We all wondered how one would be able to produce standardized needles like that. Is that the way it's been done everywhere? Is there no mechanization process? I thought I had some pictures but I cannot find them anymore. " Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. " I hardly ever use a guiding tube. Wouldn't that be a nice poll question? Is it possible that there is a difference between US and Europe and China. In China people never use tubes, and I haven't met many Europeans that do use them. But it seems that in the US tubes are standard? Tom. ---- 12/17/04 02:06:53 Chinese Medicine AP Needles Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical safety requirements. I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful sensation. I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap the skin. Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Robert, > I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me out > here? > > > > On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:23 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > > > > > > The best needles i've used come from Maeda, which has been in the > > business of making > > needles for 300 years (N sensei from Toyohari assn told me that > > Seirin was originally a > > petrochemical company, hence the plastic handles). I've still got a > > stash of silver and > > stainless needles i bought a few years back, but at 25 yen per needle > > they make Seirins > > and Acuglides look cheap in comparison. They are excellent needles, > > though, no doubt > > about that. > > > > rh > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > > >I used to get great needles from Ido Nippon-Sha a number of years ago > > > with metal handles, in all lengths and gauges. > > > > > > Z'ev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 I use ”Cloud and Dragon” needles and I have never had any reason to complain. IMO they’re extremely good value for money. I just don’t hope that they have been produced under the same circumstances as the Hwato needles.... Not surprising news, but still schoking..... I usually use guide tubes and I get as much De Qi as any of the colleagues I worked with did. Excuse me for saying so, but don’t really think it’s a matter of using guide tubes or not, but more a question about point location – only adhering maybe 98% to the point location of the books and then feel the point and direct the needle with intention... Just my opinion.... I could be wrong, though. Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen WHRDA Lic. Instructor L.Ac. & TuiNa Massage Therapist Den Mobile Akupunktør <http://acumobil.mu-in.com/> http://acumobil.mu-in.com --- Tom Verhaeghe [verhaeghe_tom] 18. december 2004 01:37 Chinese Medicine RE: AP Needles Yes, I was serious, Attilio. There are 4 or 5 people doing nothing else, the whole day. They're wearing iron gloves to protect themselves from the needles. The place was not clean at all, especially that room. I'm sorry I cannot find those pictures. Wages are so cheap, I think they maybe pay them like 1000 rmb per month, at the most. The thread at the handle of the needle is also wound by hand. A room full of women (about 30 women, I guess), doing nothing else all day. Maybe they're under pressure to keep providing those jobs and not mechanize, who knows? Yes, a poll would be nice. In Belgium I only know of one person who uses tubes. The rest does not use them. Regards Tom. ---- Attilio D'Alberto 12/17/04 19:49:13 Chinese Medicine RE: AP Needles Hi Tom, They hand sharpen the needles, are you serious? I knew that China was labour intensive, but this seems a little OTT and not really standardised. Yes, I think I may set up a poll and see how many do use tubes or not. I think that it's regulation to use tubes in the UK. Does anyone in the UK know for sure about this? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Tom Verhaeghe [verhaeghe_tom] 16 December 2004 23:39 Chinese Medicine Re: AP Needles Attillio, I've visited the HwaTo factory in Suzhou, together with a group of Belgian acupuncturists. None of us bought anything. We were not that impressed by the standards of the factory, including hygienic standards. The sharpening was done manually by people in quite filthy clothes. The employees would sit there with a bunch of needles in their hand and sharpen them like that against a rotating stone (I think). We all wondered how one would be able to produce standardized needles like that. Is that the way it's been done everywhere? Is there no mechanization process? I thought I had some pictures but I cannot find them anymore. " Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. " I hardly ever use a guiding tube. Wouldn't that be a nice poll question? Is it possible that there is a difference between US and Europe and China. In China people never use tubes, and I haven't met many Europeans that do use them. But it seems that in the US tubes are standard? Tom. ---- 12/17/04 02:06:53 Chinese Medicine AP Needles Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical safety requirements. I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful sensation. I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap the skin. Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many without tubes? Would be interesting to know. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Robert, > I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me out > here? > > > > On Dec 16, 2004, at 8:23 AM, kampo36 wrote: > > > > > > > The best needles i've used come from Maeda, which has been in the > > business of making > > needles for 300 years (N sensei from Toyohari assn told me that > > Seirin was originally a > > petrochemical company, hence the plastic handles). I've still got a > > stash of silver and > > stainless needles i bought a few years back, but at 25 yen per needle > > they make Seirins > > and Acuglides look cheap in comparison. They are excellent needles, > > though, no doubt > > about that. > > > > rh > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > > > >I used to get great needles from Ido Nippon-Sha a number of years ago > > > with metal handles, in all lengths and gauges. > > > > > > Z'ev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Not all Hwa To needles are created equal in my experience....... Before I went to China I often used Hwa To needles in my needling practice as a student here (Australia). During my clinical internship in Nanjing I bought the local Hwa To needles to try.......and they were simply terrible in comparison. Packaging was poor, oxidation was seen on some needle shafts, close inspection often revealed hooking of points and they were painful upon insertion (you could actual feel the needle making what I would only call a " squeking " sensation upon insertion as it grabbed and slipped, grabbed and slipped as it was inserted ie. VERY un-smooth and accompanied by sharp pricking pain). When I returned home, I once again tried the Hwa To needles available here.....excellent packaging, clean looking and far easier/smoother to insert and produced less pain. The obvious answer to me would be that Hwa To produce several different degrees of needles in terms of " quality " for different markets. The modern factory facilities probably produce the sterilised pre-packaged needles we find in the West, while the local market may be being fed with the older " hand-made " techniques. The difference just in visual inspection of the needle and packaging would suggest this. So, perhaps Tom saw the needle making for the local market and these needles were not destined for the overseas market. They certainly wouldn't make it into Australia anyway with such poor GMP. Best Wishes, Steve On 18/12/2004, at 11:37 AM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote: > > > Yes, > > I was serious, Attilio. There are 4 or 5 people doing nothing else, the > whole day. They're wearing iron gloves to protect themselves from the > needles. The place was not clean at all, especially that room. > I'm sorry I cannot find those pictures. > Wages are so cheap, I think they maybe pay them like 1000 rmb per > month, at > the most. The thread at the handle of the needle is also wound by > hand. A > room full of women (about 30 women, I guess), doing nothing else all > day. > Maybe they're under pressure to keep providing those jobs and not > mechanize, > who knows? > Yes, a poll would be nice. In Belgium I only know of one person who > uses > tubes. The rest does not use them. > > Regards > > Tom. > > ---- > > Attilio D'Alberto > 12/17/04 19:49:13 > Chinese Medicine > RE: AP Needles > > Hi Tom, > > They hand sharpen the needles, are you serious? I knew that China was > labour > intensive, but this seems a little OTT and not really standardised. > > Yes, I think I may set up a poll and see how many do use tubes or not. > I > think that it's regulation to use tubes in the UK. Does anyone in the > UK > know for sure about this? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Tom Verhaeghe [verhaeghe_tom] > 16 December 2004 23:39 > Chinese Medicine > Re: AP Needles > > > > Attillio, > > I've visited the HwaTo factory in Suzhou, together with a group of > Belgian > acupuncturists. None of us bought anything. We were not that impressed > by > the standards of the factory, including hygienic standards. The > sharpening > was done manually by people in quite filthy clothes. The employees > would sit > there with a bunch of needles in their hand and sharpen them like that > against a rotating stone (I think). We all wondered how one would be > able to > produce standardized needles like that. Is that the way it's been done > everywhere? Is there no mechanization process? > I thought I had some pictures but I cannot find them anymore. > > " Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many > without > tubes? Would be interesting to know. " > > I hardly ever use a guiding tube. Wouldn't that be a nice poll > question? Is > it possible that there is a difference between US and Europe and > China. In > China people never use tubes, and I haven't met many Europeans that do > use > them. But it seems that in the US tubes are standard? > > Tom. > > ---- > > > 12/17/04 02:06:53 > Chinese Medicine > AP Needles > > > Well, my personal perfence is the Hwato needles. Do you get them in > the states? I use both the needles with and without tubes. They are > also the only company that i know of, that produces a AP machine > that's allowed to be used in Europe, meaning it meets electrical > safety requirements. > > I know what memebers mean by the sharpness. The De Qi needles i used > before where more painful than others and gave a sharp, painful > sensation. > > I see that the Korean AP needles have a guide tube but no blue > needle holder tags, you just tap and go in. I think this is useful > as often when you take the needle holder tag out of a guide tube and > place it against the skin, the needle can move a little and scrap > the skin. > > Talking of which. How many people puncture with tubes and how many > without tubes? Would be interesting to know. > > Attilio > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: >> Robert, >> I've tried to get Maeda needles to no avail. Can you help me > out >> here? >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 That is a plausible explanation, Steve. Although I wonder why the HwaTo clinic would show us their inferior production facilities, when there are better ones available, especially to laowai. We were given the full treatment; English video, short speech, tea drinking, and then touring the facilities. As said, no-one of us bought anything, although many had planned to, and had brought money. Maybe the needles are selected after processing, I don't know. That's just speculation. Nobody in China now that wants to visit the factory and report to the group? Btw when were you in Nanjing, Steve? I remember Australians (Melbourne) coming to Nanjing every year. Have we met there? Tom. ---- Steven Slater 12/19/04 08:40:46 Chinese Medicine Re: AP Needles Not all Hwa To needles are created equal in my experience....... Before I went to China I often used Hwa To needles in my needling practice as a student here (Australia). During my clinical internship in Nanjing I bought the local Hwa To needles to try.......and they were simply terrible in comparison. Packaging was poor, oxidation was seen on some needle shafts, close inspection often revealed hooking of points and they were painful upon insertion (you could actual feel the needle making what I would only call a " squeking " sensation upon insertion as it grabbed and slipped, grabbed and slipped as it was inserted ie. VERY un-smooth and accompanied by sharp pricking pain). When I returned home, I once again tried the Hwa To needles available here.....excellent packaging, clean looking and far easier/smoother to insert and produced less pain. The obvious answer to me would be that Hwa To produce several different degrees of needles in terms of " quality " for different markets. The modern factory facilities probably produce the sterilised pre-packaged needles we find in the West, while the local market may be being fed with the older " hand-made " techniques. The difference just in visual inspection of the needle and packaging would suggest this. So, perhaps Tom saw the needle making for the local market and these needles were not destined for the overseas market. They certainly wouldn't make it into Australia anyway with such poor GMP. Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 Hi Tom, Yes, I was in Nanjing circa 2002 and I was one of the Melbourne " crew " . If you are from Belgium and were studying Chinese before embarking on advanced acupuncture training I think perhaps we did meet several times........if so please email me offlist as I would like to hear about your adventures since I last saw you:) Best Wishes, Steve On 19/12/2004, at 12:50 PM, Tom Verhaeghe wrote: > > > > That is a plausible explanation, Steve. Although I wonder why the HwaTo > clinic would show us their inferior production facilities, when there > are > better ones available, especially to laowai. We were given the full > treatment; English video, short speech, tea drinking, and then touring > the > facilities. > As said, no-one of us bought anything, although many had planned to, > and had > brought money. > Maybe the needles are selected after processing, I don't know. That's > just > speculation. > Nobody in China now that wants to visit the factory and report to the > group? > Btw when were you in Nanjing, Steve? I remember Australians (Melbourne) > coming to Nanjing every year. Have we met there? > > Tom. > ---- > > Steven Slater > 12/19/04 08:40:46 > Chinese Medicine > Re: AP Needles > > Not all Hwa To needles are created equal in my experience....... > > Before I went to China I often used Hwa To needles in my needling > practice as a student here (Australia). During my clinical internship > in Nanjing I bought the local Hwa To needles to try.......and they were > simply terrible in comparison. Packaging was poor, oxidation was seen > on some needle shafts, close inspection often revealed hooking of > points and they were painful upon insertion (you could actual feel the > needle making what I would only call a " squeking " sensation upon > insertion as it grabbed and slipped, grabbed and slipped as it was > inserted ie. VERY un-smooth and accompanied by sharp pricking pain). > > When I returned home, I once again tried the Hwa To needles available > here.....excellent packaging, clean looking and far easier/smoother to > insert and produced less pain. > > The obvious answer to me would be that Hwa To produce several different > degrees of needles in terms of " quality " for different markets. The > modern factory facilities probably produce the sterilised pre-packaged > needles we find in the West, while the local market may be being fed > with the older " hand-made " techniques. The difference just in visual > inspection of the needle and packaging would suggest this. > > So, perhaps Tom saw the needle making for the local market and these > needles were not destined for the overseas market. They certainly > wouldn't make it into Australia anyway with such poor GMP. > > Best Wishes, > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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