Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Xie - sedating - reducing Bu - tonifying - reinforcing even method wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. If they needle on exhalation to tonify insert on inhlation - to sedate does this made any difference. If the correct point is used do you think it makes so much difference - how much stimulation. how long to people suggest needle are left in (situe) to tonify or sedate - do people cover the point with a swob after removal to tonify and leave open to sedate - please share your thoughts. wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Dear Wayne, Most of my needling is now Japanese style. Including total non-insertion of the needle. Perhaps intention as defined in Phil's recently mentioned article is more important in this approach?!? My Japanese training is in the style of the Toyohari Association as well as Manaka. As students in Toyohari we have the advantage of having a master on the pulse tell the person making the needle stimulation what is happening to the pulse. Very accelerated learning style. Others feel the radial, foot, temple pulse (also one can feel the pulse of the person on the radial pulse in a daisy chain ie many people holding each others pulse) this way we can also understand and can feel the change as the Master makes the needle stimulation. To capture an idea, I would perhaps suggest that this style of treatment is homeopathic in approach as it treats one of four basic yin deficient patterns. Very good practitioners do little more than a root treatment, the rest of us rely more on our symptom treatment. I suggest if you want to know more, the best thing to do is to attain a treatment of this style and see for yourself. I think the best of the best of any style is all 'divine' and that it comes down to what suits each practitioner. In the Manaka style there is less concept of excess deficient and hence there is less attention paid to the direction of flow, breathing etc, these things are very important in Toyohari style. If you want to know of practitioners studying and practicing Toyohari style, please email me your address and I will post it on the closed Toyohari list to find the closest practitioners. Best regards, wjuhe [wjuhe] Monday, 13 December 2004 12:50 PM Chinese Medicine needle stimulation Xie - sedating - reducing Bu - tonifying - reinforcing even method wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. If they needle on exhalation to tonify insert on inhlation - to sedate does this made any difference. If the correct point is used do you think it makes so much difference - how much stimulation. how long to people suggest needle are left in (situe) to tonify or sedate - do people cover the point with a swob after removal to tonify and leave open to sedate - please share your thoughts. wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 if one is going to change one's needling technique, one needs to re-learn point location to optimize the needling. using superficial or contact needling with TCM point location gives inconsistent or poor results. just MHO. http://jabinet.net/tcm-mt.html robert hayden Chinese Medicine , " wjuhe " <wjuhe> wrote: > > What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style > > I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae > what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 First of all, One cannot discuss bu3 and xie4 without having accurate translation of the terms. If one believes that xie4, translated in the Practical Dictionary and in the Wenlin dictionary as draining, is 'sedation', one misses the entire point of the discussion. In sedation, nothing moves, it means to 'put to sleep' (se·da·tion n 1. a state of calm, restfulness, or drowsiness, especially as induced by a sedative or tranquilizing drug 2. the use of a sedative or tranquilizing drug to induce a state of calm, restfulness, or drowsiness). In xie/drainage, we move the qi from the point/hole away from the site along the channel. Even reducing is not such a great translation, because what is being reduced? Can you measure qi in a way that you can say you are 'reducing' it? One can perceive the presence or absence of qi, but one cannot measure the 'quantity'. On Dec 12, 2004, at 6:50 PM, wjuhe wrote: > > > Xie - sedating - reducing > Bu - tonifying - reinforcing > even method > > wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. > What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style > > I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae > what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. > > If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. > > If they needle on exhalation to tonify > insert on inhlation - to sedate > > > wayne > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Zev, Interesting translation. Is it possible that the effect of this needling creates a sense of calm due to qi moving and that this maybe what was referenced as sedation? We will never really know for sure what was meant. As for what is being sedated I think that the physiological research of Dr. Kim Bonghan and Dr. Kwang Soh and others will be most helpful in demonstrating a physical substance and construct in line with the ancient writings. We may need to open up our understanding to include a physical reality and not just a limited metaphor. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: needle stimulation >Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:59:13 -0800 > >First of all, > One cannot discuss bu3 and xie4 without having accurate translation >of the terms. If one believes that xie4, translated in the Practical >Dictionary and in the Wenlin dictionary as draining, is 'sedation', one >misses the entire point of the discussion. In sedation, nothing moves, >it means to 'put to sleep' (se·da·tion n >1. a state of calm, restfulness, or drowsiness, especially as induced >by a sedative or tranquilizing drug >2. the use of a sedative or tranquilizing drug to induce a state of >calm, restfulness, or drowsiness). > >In xie/drainage, we move the qi from the point/hole away from the site >along the channel. Even reducing is not such a great translation, >because what is being reduced? Can you measure qi in a way that you >can say you are 'reducing' it? One can perceive the presence or >absence of qi, but one cannot measure the 'quantity'. > > > > >On Dec 12, 2004, at 6:50 PM, wjuhe wrote: > > > > > > > Xie - sedating - reducing > > Bu - tonifying - reinforcing > > even method > > > > wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. > > What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style > > > > I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae > > what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. > > > > If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. > > > > If they needle on exhalation to tonify > > insert on inhlation - to sedate > > > > > > wayne > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 > Chinese Medicine , > " wjuhe " <wjuhe> wrote: > > What the difference japanese stimulation is to > Chinese style > > I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less > stimulae > > what are peoples experiences have you tried both > and compared. I've never studied Japanese style acupuncture, but the more I read about it the mroe I realise it's something like what I do. Before training in TCM I spent a somewhat long time practicing qi gong and for me it is simply a natural extension of qi gong to require an energetic understanding of the point and an assessment of its characteristics (including depth) before insertion of the needle. Another point is that I don't believe that deqi is an on/off phenomena. If the acupuncturist can detect how the qi is being influenced within the patient's body it is possible (and I do it frequently), to bring the qi up to just below the threshhold where the patient would begin to feel it. I have not, however, compared the results on the same patient between this method and " feeling the deqi " method. Across patients they seem to be similar. Generally speaking, I use the first method on patients with emotional disharmony in the heart and or liver (I find tx is more comfortable and deeply relaxing this way). I find that obvious deqi sensation is essential for quick relief of excess conditions, but this is also a complicated topic because there are different types of deqi. I use .25 mm or .28 mm 1.5 inch needles for just abotu everyone. I would like to emphasize that I _always_ obtain deqi (but not nec the patient's perception of it), that I believe it is essential, and that I have to pay extremely close attention to a number of factors in order to assess whether I am achieving deqi or not, in addition to my feeling of the qi and the needle. My point is that I find TCM acupuncture to be only the first step. Hope that was useful in some way, Hugo _________ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Messenger http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Hi Robert, Your comment is quite correct. There are numerous point locations some are Master 'x' Sp 9; Master 'y' Sp 9 for example. Matsumoto talks about getting the angle correct with the needle and that the correct angle will release pressure pain from say a hip or knee or another point. When the referred area releases the needling was 'correct'. Japanese styles (and there are many of them from pure scientific to pure classic to mixed), that I am using have a big use of bio feed back. Manaka has a different set of Mu points for abdominal diagnosis than the classics. He found reactive points relative to stimulating the channel's source point with a magnet. So perhaps there are meridian mu pts and organ mu pts or perhaps it just a matter of finding points which release abdominal pain patterns. In which case the names are handy labels. In Toyohari they give the technical location, always with a longitudinal and latitudinal anatomical reference. Then one seeks the active point. We have great fun at branch meetings where we routinely study, we mark with non toxic texta our technical pt on one limb of the the person and then what we find to be the active pt on the other limb. Each point is then tested with a silver teishin (non inserting needle) and the quality of the pulse is assessed. According to this style the pulse should become more round, slow a little and feel more consolidated. It is not that each point location will not work, it is that we are seeking the one location which will be better or faster or require less treatment and we are learning to understand what that point location feels like when we touch the skin. A tactile training scheme... lots of fun ... except when the ego creeps in! It is a big concept not to over treat the patient in these styles. A concept I never heard of when I did my basic TCM 4 year degree training. So a lot of care is taken in Toyohari to check the pulse for feedback. In Manaka style we tend to have time limits for polarity treatment and retained needling. best wishes, kampo36 [kampo36] Tuesday, 14 December 2004 1:35 AM Chinese Medicine Re: needle stimulation if one is going to change one's needling technique, one needs to re-learn point location to optimize the needling. using superficial or contact needling with TCM point location gives inconsistent or poor results. just MHO. http://jabinet.net/tcm-mt.html robert hayden Chinese Medicine , " wjuhe " <wjuhe> wrote: > > What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style > > I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae > what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Mike, Nice to hear from you after several years. No, I have to respectfully disagree with you. This isn't my own idea about how acupuncture works. . for a good English language discussion of some of these ideas, read " Understanding Acupuncture " by Stephen Birch and Robert Felt. One can also become calm through the supplementation method, or even method, i.e. communicating essence. I don't think this is what the original sources had in mind for xie4. Xie4 is translated as drain or draining in almost every English language herbal text, as in Long dan xie gan tang/Gentiana Drain the Liver Decoction, Xie xin tang/Drain the epigastrium (heart) Decoction, etc. Why should it be different in acupuncture texts? I also don't think that the traditional understanding of acupuncture is a 'limited metaphor'. . . .just a different looking glass for viewing the human being. The Chinese were not separating physical reality from idea with channels, points, etc. On Dec 13, 2004, at 9:47 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > Zev, > Interesting translation. Is it possible that the effect of this > needling > creates a sense of calm due to qi moving and that this maybe what was > referenced as sedation? > We will never really know for sure what was meant. > As for what is being sedated I think that the physiological research > of Dr. > Kim Bonghan and Dr. Kwang Soh and others will be most helpful in > demonstrating a physical substance and construct in line with the > ancient > writings. We may need to open up our understanding to include a > physical > reality and not just a limited metaphor. Later > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Dear Sharon Sorry to interrupt your comminication. Are there any practitioner who uses these technques in LONDON As I have sonething new to learn here.. Kindeast regards Arthur Sharon <> wrote: Dear Wayne, Most of my needling is now Japanese style. Including total non-insertion of the needle. Perhaps intention as defined in Phil's recently mentioned article is more important in this approach?!? My Japanese training is in the style of the Toyohari Association as well as Manaka. As students in Toyohari we have the advantage of having a master on the pulse tell the person making the needle stimulation what is happening to the pulse. Very accelerated learning style. Others feel the radial, foot, temple pulse (also one can feel the pulse of the person on the radial pulse in a daisy chain ie many people holding each others pulse) this way we can also understand and can feel the change as the Master makes the needle stimulation. To capture an idea, I would perhaps suggest that this style of treatment is homeopathic in approach as it treats one of four basic yin deficient patterns. Very good practitioners do little more than a root treatment, the rest of us rely more on our symptom treatment. I suggest if you want to know more, the best thing to do is to attain a treatment of this style and see for yourself. I think the best of the best of any style is all 'divine' and that it comes down to what suits each practitioner. In the Manaka style there is less concept of excess deficient and hence there is less attention paid to the direction of flow, breathing etc, these things are very important in Toyohari style. If you want to know of practitioners studying and practicing Toyohari style, please email me your address and I will post it on the closed Toyohari list to find the closest practitioners. Best regards, wjuhe [wjuhe] Monday, 13 December 2004 12:50 PM Chinese Medicine needle stimulation Xie - sedating - reducing Bu - tonifying - reinforcing even method wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. If they needle on exhalation to tonify insert on inhlation - to sedate does this made any difference. If the correct point is used do you think it makes so much difference - how much stimulation. how long to people suggest needle are left in (situe) to tonify or sedate - do people cover the point with a swob after removal to tonify and leave open to sedate - please share your thoughts. wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Chinese Medicine , wrote: > > Hi Robert, > Your comment is quite correct. > > There are numerous point locations some are Master 'x' Sp 9; Master 'y' Sp 9 > for example. > well, yes, that too. but what i'm talking about is the process of point location; locating a point to perform sesshokushin or even in toyohari talking about hoho/shaho/ho-chu-no-shaho, not to mention various forms of moxibustion, root vs local tx, various depths of tissue, naso/ muno, extra vessel points etc. etc. one needs to be clear about what technique, what modality, what type of tissue in what body region, desired outcome, feedback, all of that. if i'm going treat LR3 with moxa or hoho or shaho or TCM style needling for four gates, LR3 will probably be in a somewhat different location with with different criteria for locating the point depending on what technique i'm going to use... often the findings determine the technique. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Zev, Nice to hear from you also. I would like to discuss my text on integration with you at some future time. I would appreciate it if you would contact me offline to discuss this. I think that the reason for the difference is due to two disparate systems of medical knowledge. The acupuncturists tended to use and focus on the jing luo as this is their main mode. The herbalists tended to treat organs and areas as this is what they focused upon. I think we have two divergent yet complimentary systems due to different focuses. The acupuncturists tools focused treatment from outside in and herbalists operate from inside out. They both can be effective and more so when they are combined. I think of it as herbs add substances to the person, acupuncture does not. This may be one reason why the Japanese concept of Liver Xu mimics the TCM Liver qi stagnation pattern. Lets not forget that acupuncture is regulatory in nature. I like your ending and agree. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: needle stimulation >Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:10:39 -0800 > >Mike, > Nice to hear from you after several years. > >No, I have to respectfully disagree with you. This isn't my own idea >about how acupuncture works. . for a good English language discussion >of some of these ideas, read " Understanding Acupuncture " by Stephen >Birch and Robert Felt. > >One can also become calm through the supplementation method, or even >method, i.e. communicating essence. I don't think this is what the >original sources had in mind for xie4. Xie4 is translated as drain or >draining in almost every English language herbal text, as in Long dan >xie gan tang/Gentiana Drain the Liver Decoction, Xie xin tang/Drain the >epigastrium (heart) Decoction, etc. Why should it be different in >acupuncture texts? > >I also don't think that the traditional understanding of acupuncture is >a 'limited metaphor'. . . .just a different looking glass for viewing >the human being. The Chinese were not separating physical reality from >idea with channels, points, etc. > > >On Dec 13, 2004, at 9:47 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > > > Zev, > > Interesting translation. Is it possible that the effect of this > > needling > > creates a sense of calm due to qi moving and that this maybe what was > > referenced as sedation? > > We will never really know for sure what was meant. > > As for what is being sedated I think that the physiological research > > of Dr. > > Kim Bonghan and Dr. Kwang Soh and others will be most helpful in > > demonstrating a physical substance and construct in line with the > > ancient > > writings. We may need to open up our understanding to include a > > physical > > reality and not just a limited metaphor. Later > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > >Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine >Pacific College of Oriental Medicine >San Diego, Ca. 92122 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Dear, Sharon Do you know anybody in Toronto Canada working in this style? Peter Sharon <> wrote: Dear Wayne, Most of my needling is now Japanese style. Including total non-insertion of the needle. Perhaps intention as defined in Phil's recently mentioned article is more important in this approach?!? My Japanese training is in the style of the Toyohari Association as well as Manaka. As students in Toyohari we have the advantage of having a master on the pulse tell the person making the needle stimulation what is happening to the pulse. Very accelerated learning style. Others feel the radial, foot, temple pulse (also one can feel the pulse of the person on the radial pulse in a daisy chain ie many people holding each others pulse) this way we can also understand and can feel the change as the Master makes the needle stimulation. To capture an idea, I would perhaps suggest that this style of treatment is homeopathic in approach as it treats one of four basic yin deficient patterns. Very good practitioners do little more than a root treatment, the rest of us rely more on our symptom treatment. I suggest if you want to know more, the best thing to do is to attain a treatment of this style and see for yourself. I think the best of the best of any style is all 'divine' and that it comes down to what suits each practitioner. In the Manaka style there is less concept of excess deficient and hence there is less attention paid to the direction of flow, breathing etc, these things are very important in Toyohari style. If you want to know of practitioners studying and practicing Toyohari style, please email me your address and I will post it on the closed Toyohari list to find the closest practitioners. Best regards, wjuhe [wjuhe] Monday, 13 December 2004 12:50 PM Chinese Medicine needle stimulation Xie - sedating - reducing Bu - tonifying - reinforcing even method wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. If they needle on exhalation to tonify insert on inhlation - to sedate does this made any difference. If the correct point is used do you think it makes so much difference - how much stimulation. how long to people suggest needle are left in (situe) to tonify or sedate - do people cover the point with a swob after removal to tonify and leave open to sedate - please share your thoughts. wayne To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 In the end Robert, no matter what the style, the depth, the technique, one has to be clinically effective. All the description of what is and how to do has to come down to this, did it work? kampo36 [kampo36] Wednesday, 15 December 2004 12:36 AM Chinese Medicine Re: needle stimulation Chinese Medicine , wrote: > > Hi Robert, > Your comment is quite correct. > > There are numerous point locations some are Master 'x' Sp 9; Master 'y' Sp 9 > for example. > well, yes, that too. but what i'm talking about is the process of point location; locating a point to perform sesshokushin or even in toyohari talking about hoho/shaho/ho-chu-no-shaho, not to mention various forms of moxibustion, root vs local tx, various depths of tissue, naso/ muno, extra vessel points etc. etc. one needs to be clear about what technique, what modality, what type of tissue in what body region, desired outcome, feedback, all of that. if i'm going treat LR3 with moxa or hoho or shaho or TCM style needling for four gates, LR3 will probably be in a somewhat different location with with different criteria for locating the point depending on what technique i'm going to use... often the findings determine the technique. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Hi Pete, Like Arthur, I will post to the toyohari list, cheers Peter Pavolotsky [peter911cm] Wednesday, 15 December 2004 3:10 AM Chinese Medicine RE: needle stimulation Dear, Sharon Do you know anybody in Toronto Canada working in this style? Peter Sharon <> wrote: Dear Wayne, Most of my needling is now Japanese style. Including total non-insertion of the needle. Perhaps intention as defined in Phil's recently mentioned article is more important in this approach?!? My Japanese training is in the style of the Toyohari Association as well as Manaka. As students in Toyohari we have the advantage of having a master on the pulse tell the person making the needle stimulation what is happening to the pulse. Very accelerated learning style. Others feel the radial, foot, temple pulse (also one can feel the pulse of the person on the radial pulse in a daisy chain ie many people holding each others pulse) this way we can also understand and can feel the change as the Master makes the needle stimulation. To capture an idea, I would perhaps suggest that this style of treatment is homeopathic in approach as it treats one of four basic yin deficient patterns. Very good practitioners do little more than a root treatment, the rest of us rely more on our symptom treatment. I suggest if you want to know more, the best thing to do is to attain a treatment of this style and see for yourself. I think the best of the best of any style is all 'divine' and that it comes down to what suits each practitioner. In the Manaka style there is less concept of excess deficient and hence there is less attention paid to the direction of flow, breathing etc, these things are very important in Toyohari style. If you want to know of practitioners studying and practicing Toyohari style, please email me your address and I will post it on the closed Toyohari list to find the closest practitioners. Best regards, wjuhe [wjuhe] Monday, 13 December 2004 12:50 PM Chinese Medicine needle stimulation Xie - sedating - reducing Bu - tonifying - reinforcing even method wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. If they needle on exhalation to tonify insert on inhlation - to sedate does this made any difference. If the correct point is used do you think it makes so much difference - how much stimulation. how long to people suggest needle are left in (situe) to tonify or sedate - do people cover the point with a swob after removal to tonify and leave open to sedate - please share your thoughts. wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Dear Sharon Thankyou for your information wjuhe Victoria Australia I love Japan and wish to visit as a holiday and to study. Do you know or anyone on line - any Japanese acupuncture short seminars etc in Japan. I speak basic ( gaijin) Japanese so would need it to be in English. Does anyone know of the shinwataido in Japan. The contact details please. ( shinwataido -Inoue Sensei - Aikido like style) thankyou - Love , Joy and Peace. Wayne Sharon <> wrote: Peter Pavolotsky [peter911cm] Wednesday, 15 December 2004 3:10 AM Chinese Medicine RE: needle stimulation Dear, Sharon Do you know anybody in Toronto Canada working in this style? Peter Sharon <> wrote: Dear Wayne, Most of my needling is now Japanese style. Including total non-insertion of the needle. Perhaps intention as defined in Phil's recently mentioned article is more important in this approach?!? My Japanese training is in the style of the Toyohari Association as well as Manaka. As students in Toyohari we have the advantage of having a master on the pulse tell the person making the needle stimulation what is happening to the pulse. Very accelerated learning style. Others feel the radial, foot, temple pulse (also one can feel the pulse of the person on the radial pulse in a daisy chain ie many people holding each others pulse) this way we can also understand and can feel the change as the Master makes the needle stimulation. To capture an idea, I would perhaps suggest that this style of treatment is homeopathic in approach as it treats one of four basic yin deficient patterns. Very good practitioners do little more than a root treatment, the rest of us rely more on our symptom treatment. I suggest if you want to know more, the best thing to do is to attain a treatment of this style and see for yourself. I think the best of the best of any style is all 'divine' and that it comes down to what suits each practitioner. In the Manaka style there is less concept of excess deficient and hence there is less attention paid to the direction of flow, breathing etc, these things are very important in Toyohari style. If you want to know of practitioners studying and practicing Toyohari style, please email me your address and I will post it on the closed Toyohari list to find the closest practitioners. Best regards, wjuhe [wjuhe] Monday, 13 December 2004 12:50 PM Chinese Medicine needle stimulation Xie - sedating - reducing Bu - tonifying - reinforcing even method wonder peoples ideas on how they perform the above. What the difference japanese stimulation is to Chinese style I read Japanese use less deep insertion and less stimulae what are peoples experiences have you tried both and compared. If people needle with or against flow of qi (ki) to tonify or reduce. If they needle on exhalation to tonify insert on inhlation - to sedate does this made any difference. If the correct point is used do you think it makes so much difference - how much stimulation. how long to people suggest needle are left in (situe) to tonify or sedate - do people cover the point with a swob after removal to tonify and leave open to sedate - please share your thoughts. wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 On Dec 14, 2004, at 7:16 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev, > Nice to hear from you also. I would like to discuss my text on > integration > with you at some future time. I would appreciate it if you would > contact me > offline to discuss this. Glad to. Just send me a private e-mail. > I think that the reason for the difference is due to two disparate > systems > of medical knowledge. The acupuncturists tended to use and focus on > the > jing luo as this is their main mode. The herbalists tended to treat > organs > and areas as this is what they focused upon. I think we have two > divergent > yet complimentary systems due to different focuses. The > acupuncturists > tools focused treatment from outside in and herbalists operate from > inside > out. They both can be effective and more so when they are combined. > I > think of it as herbs add substances to the person, acupuncture does > not. > This may be one reason why the Japanese concept of Liver Xu mimics > the TCM > Liver qi stagnation pattern. Lets not forget that acupuncture is > regulatory > in nature. I like your ending and agree. Mike, I've been teaching precisely this for fifteen years at PCOM (the different focuses of acupuncture and herbal medicine, jing-luo compared with zang-fu). However, even though I used the example of an herbal prescription ( ban xia xie xin tang, etc.), the issue here is not the context (herbal medicine vs. point prescriptions), but the terminology. There is no way to make an argument for sedation as a translation for xie4. No Chinese-English dictionary I am aware of lists this as a translation choice. Sedate is translated in Chinese as wen3. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 Zev, Thanks for the email. This is one place that I believe we need to have some standard terminology. Be in touch. So, let's create it. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: needle stimulation >Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:38:12 -0800 > > >On Dec 14, 2004, at 7:16 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > Zev, > > Nice to hear from you also. I would like to discuss my text on > > integration > > with you at some future time. I would appreciate it if you would > > contact me > > offline to discuss this. > >Glad to. Just send me a private e-mail. > > > I think that the reason for the difference is due to two disparate > > systems > > of medical knowledge. The acupuncturists tended to use and focus on > > the > > jing luo as this is their main mode. The herbalists tended to treat > > organs > > and areas as this is what they focused upon. I think we have two > > divergent > > yet complimentary systems due to different focuses. The > > acupuncturists > > tools focused treatment from outside in and herbalists operate from > > inside > > out. They both can be effective and more so when they are combined. > > I > > think of it as herbs add substances to the person, acupuncture does > > not. > > This may be one reason why the Japanese concept of Liver Xu mimics > > the TCM > > Liver qi stagnation pattern. Lets not forget that acupuncture is > > regulatory > > in nature. I like your ending and agree. > >Mike, I've been teaching precisely this for fifteen years at PCOM (the >different focuses of acupuncture and herbal medicine, jing-luo compared >with zang-fu). > >However, even though I used the example of an herbal prescription ( ban >xia xie xin tang, etc.), the issue here is not the context (herbal >medicine vs. point prescriptions), but the terminology. There is no >way to make an argument for sedation as a translation for xie4. No >Chinese-English dictionary I am aware of lists this as a translation >choice. Sedate is translated in Chinese as wen3. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 The point that Z'ev is making is well-established. The mistranslation of xie4 as " sedate " instead of " drain " is one of the most clear examples that exists of an English term distorting the meaning of a Chinese medical concept. I have seen Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that Westerners translate xie4 as " sedate. " Many Chinese doctors know enough English to know the meaning of these two words, and they know which one describes something that happens with acupuncture and which one happens when they prescribe diazepam. Eric Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > On Dec 14, 2004, at 7:16 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > > > > Zev, > > Nice to hear from you also. I would like to discuss my text on > > integration > > with you at some future time. I would appreciate it if you would > > contact me > > offline to discuss this. > > Glad to. Just send me a private e-mail. > > > I think that the reason for the difference is due to two disparate > > systems > > of medical knowledge. The acupuncturists tended to use and focus on > > the > > jing luo as this is their main mode. The herbalists tended to treat > > organs > > and areas as this is what they focused upon. I think we have two > > divergent > > yet complimentary systems due to different focuses. The > > acupuncturists > > tools focused treatment from outside in and herbalists operate from > > inside > > out. They both can be effective and more so when they are combined. > > I > > think of it as herbs add substances to the person, acupuncture does > > not. > > This may be one reason why the Japanese concept of Liver Xu mimics > > the TCM > > Liver qi stagnation pattern. Lets not forget that acupuncture is > > regulatory > > in nature. I like your ending and agree. > > Mike, I've been teaching precisely this for fifteen years at PCOM (the > different focuses of acupuncture and herbal medicine, jing-luo compared > with zang-fu). > > However, even though I used the example of an herbal prescription ( ban > xia xie xin tang, etc.), the issue here is not the context (herbal > medicine vs. point prescriptions), but the terminology. There is no > way to make an argument for sedation as a translation for xie4. No > Chinese-English dictionary I am aware of lists this as a translation > choice. Sedate is translated in Chinese as wen3. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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