Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 On Dec 11, 2004, at 10:01 AM, wrote: > I started AP with simple needles, and progressed to electro-AP, > laser-AP, point-injection, infrared devices and massage. I even tried > an 11,000 US$ gizmo from Japan (Super Lizer), a beautifully > designed gadget that the company lent to me for assessment. I > stopped using it after a few weeks. Dry needling of horses, dogs > and humans gave me better results than the gizmo. Phil, You're in such a great position to validate TCM without needing a placebo group. This is really great information because presumably your animal clientele is not involved with any expectation of relief and so there is no placebo involved. I am curious however if you believe that the animals you treat are sensitive to the intent of the vet. In other words, do they like to have you putting needles into them because you're a comfort or do they pretty much just put up with it because you and all the other two-legged animals seem to think that this pricking thing is important. Sorry for the deviation from the herb topic, but the whole placebo question has become quite the issue in my own mind of late. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Hi All, & Anne, Anne Crowley wrote: > One of these aritcles refers to electrical acupuncture stimulating > the hypothalmus more than regular acupuncture. Do any of you find > electrical acupuncture to be more effective than regular > acupuncture. We did not learn electrical in the 5E school I > graduated. I would have to learn it from a knowledgeable > practioner or workshop. I heard an MD who was in our area for a > while - took the 300 hr course did use it. Any thoughts on your > results with it as opposed to without it. Thanks, Anne Whatever about the research results re hypothalamic stimulation, my expereince with many different forms of AP stimulation is that simple needling works as well as, or better than, AP with fancy instruments. I started AP with simple needles, and progressed to electro-AP, laser-AP, point-injection, infrared devices and massage. I even tried an 11,000 US$ gizmo from Japan (Super Lizer), a beautifully designed gadget that the company lent to me for assessment. I stopped using it after a few weeks. Dry needling of horses, dogs and humans gave me better results than the gizmo. IMO, electro-AP beats simple AP in very few clinical situations. The best documented indications are: treatment of stroke / peripheral paralysis, and acupuncture analgesia for surgery. I have an Electro-AP stimulator in my office, but I use it very rarely now. When I was in Taiwan in the early 1980s, I saw stimulators on shelves in every clinic that I visited, but saw them used only in the two situations described above. When I asked why that did not use them, the answer was simple: manual AP works just as well and is less hassle to use. I know that several people on this list use EAP or electrostim, but I have yet to see convincing evidence from comparative trials that the gizmos are better than simple needling for most of the common conditions that acupuncturists encounter daily. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 Hi Anne, Anne Crowley wrote: > One of these aritcles refers to electrical acupuncture stimulating > the hypothalmus more than regular acupuncture. Do any of you find > electrical acupuncture to be more effective than regular > acupuncture. We did not learn electrical in the 5E school I > graduated. I would have to learn it from a knowledgeable > practioner or workshop. I heard an MD who was in our area for a > while - took the 300 hr course did use it. Any thoughts on your > results with it as opposed to without it. Thanks, Anne My practice is mostly sports medicine/musculo-skeletal injury based. I use electrical stimulation to enhance treatments with good results. I don't always use it. For example, I never use it on a first-time patient, acute injury, acute spasm, severely qi deficient patients, etc. I personally think it is potentially too strong of a treatment for a first-time patient because you could have no idea how they're going to react to acupuncture much less electro-acupuncture. I have found that it has cut down on the number of treatments a patient needs. Typically, by about 25%. If a person doesn't like the sensation or for some other reason I end up not using it, more treatments tend to be involved. It works great for chronic muscle strains, low back pain/sprain, knee pain (especially chondromalacia patellae), and muscle " knots " . <http://us.adserver./l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=grphealth /S=:HM/A=2434971/rand=782827795> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2004 Report Share Posted December 11, 2004 I also believe that you shouldn't use electro acupuncture with patients that have a Yin deficiency or excessive heat. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Barb [bbeale] 11 December 2004 18:52 Chinese Medicine RE: Electro-AP versus simple AP Hi Anne, Anne Crowley wrote: > One of these aritcles refers to electrical acupuncture stimulating > the hypothalmus more than regular acupuncture. Do any of you find > electrical acupuncture to be more effective than regular > acupuncture. We did not learn electrical in the 5E school I > graduated. I would have to learn it from a knowledgeable > practioner or workshop. I heard an MD who was in our area for a > while - took the 300 hr course did use it. Any thoughts on your > results with it as opposed to without it. Thanks, Anne My practice is mostly sports medicine/musculo-skeletal injury based. I use electrical stimulation to enhance treatments with good results. I don't always use it. For example, I never use it on a first-time patient, acute injury, acute spasm, severely qi deficient patients, etc. I personally think it is potentially too strong of a treatment for a first-time patient because you could have no idea how they're going to react to acupuncture much less electro-acupuncture. I have found that it has cut down on the number of treatments a patient needs. Typically, by about 25%. If a person doesn't like the sensation or for some other reason I end up not using it, more treatments tend to be involved. It works great for chronic muscle strains, low back pain/sprain, knee pain (especially chondromalacia patellae), and muscle " knots " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 My experience as well, Phil. All your points are well-taken. I agree that in situations involving neurological damage, such as stroke/peripheral paralysis or analgesia, electro-acupuncture may be indicated, but these are not most acupuncturist's usual clinical scenarios. On Dec 11, 2004, at 10:01 AM, wrote: > > Whatever about the research results re hypothalamic stimulation, > my expereince with many different forms of AP stimulation is that > simple needling works as well as, or better than, AP with fancy > instruments. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 It is possible to use proper needling techniques on the needles to dramatically improve post stroke/paralysis patients without using electro-acupuncture. I used it during internship per the instructor's direction but have not turned on the device on a patient in my clinic because I have not found credible bio-physical background of these devices yet. Maybe some one in the forum can shed some light on this? Mike L. <zrosenbe wrote: My experience as well, Phil. All your points are well-taken. I agree that in situations involving neurological damage, such as stroke/peripheral paralysis or analgesia, electro-acupuncture may be indicated, but these are not most acupuncturist's usual clinical scenarios. On Dec 11, 2004, at 10:01 AM, wrote: > > Whatever about the research results re hypothalamic stimulation, > my expereince with many different forms of AP stimulation is that > simple needling works as well as, or better than, AP with fancy > instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 electrical acupuncture stimulating >>>Just like all other treatments, it has advantageous in some areas and should be viewed in much more depth than just connecting needles to simple stimulators. For example, you can use monopolar stimulators to get phasic effects to enhance cell prolifiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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