Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 attilio, for my patients that want to quit smoking- I've found the best results when they are willing to come in 3 x for the first 2wks then 2x wk for 2 wks then weekly and so on, tapering the treatments. This is difficult for most people to afford financially -but that is what I suggest for best results. It is frustrating when a person wants to try acupuncture to quit smoking- only to have one treatment and then declare- " Acupuncture doesnt work " . I make this point clear. The person has their addiction 24 hrs a day for however long- acupuncture will help - but the patient does have to work at it too.To expect one treatment to cure an addiciton in one treatment is not reasonable for most people. That is like saying " I skipped lunch, why aren't I thin yet? " I did have one patient who stopped smoking after her first treatment.I really cant take credit for her success. She was extremely committed and ready. She came for 3 wks or so- with out having smoked between sessions. She was still not smoking 2 yrs later. This was very unusual -at least in my practice. In her case - I really believe that she was ready and willing to quit. I also remind them to drink alot of water throughout the day. Have some healthy snacks readily available. Do some sort of physical exercise- even if it is only walking. Engage in another activity that will hold their interest for a while, something that can be interrupted and picked up and put down again - preferably something that shows tangible results- such as gardening, drawing, knitting. I also share with them what other people told me has worked for them. For example, one man told me that for weeks before he planned to quit smoking - he would empty his ashtrays into clear jars. He would leave these throughout his house. He found the sight and smell disgusting and it reinforced his will to stop smoking. It is also helpful for the patient to say to themselves " smoking is a dirty habit and it is very unhealthy. " It is very difficult to disagree with yourself. Also since more and more places have a 'no smoking " rule - the patient could remind themselves that smoking is also very inconvenient and cumbersome. Remind them of how much money they are spending on sabotaging their health. Ask them if they can think of other things to spend the money on. I often advise people not to drink alcohol when they are first quitting because many people crave a cigarette with their drink. This can also be true of marijuana. It is important to remember - as with any addiction- relapses happen. when it does, don't give up. Just start again. The first few wks are the hardest. It does get easier. keep trying. Josie ---- Begin Original Message ---- " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:07:46 -0000 <Chinese Medicine > Stop Smoking Hi all, Does anyone have any good advice on additional lifestyle changes for a patient that wants to stop smoking. I'll be using the standard NADA points aswell as additional body points. He's on a formula for a different condition and wants to stop smoking. Will need additional lifestyle advice to back up my course of treatment. Any recommendations? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Hi Attilio, Recently I had two reformed smokers wanting treatment for stopping smoking as both had recently resumed, one had acute hip pain, which we resolved at the time and also treated for stop smoking. The other had a crisis in a 30 yr old marriage, I was treating his shoulder successfully for an old rotary cuff injury. What I asked was what they were smoking for? One said he was afraid he would have to get a hip operation and the other wanted to piss off his Mrs. So, I addressed the fear in one and the pain. And in the other, how else he might be able to piss off his Mrs without tobacco. So perhaps you need to understand and address the stressors and give them alternative habits?!? Best wishes, Josie Donahue Hermes [medicinemom] Wednesday, 8 December 2004 4:22 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Stop Smoking attilio, for my patients that want to quit smoking- I've found the best results when they are willing to come in 3 x for the first 2wks then 2x wk for 2 wks then weekly and so on, tapering the treatments. This is difficult for most people to afford financially -but that is what I suggest for best results. It is frustrating when a person wants to try acupuncture to quit smoking- only to have one treatment and then declare- " Acupuncture doesnt work " . I make this point clear. The person has their addiction 24 hrs a day for however long- acupuncture will help - but the patient does have to work at it too.To expect one treatment to cure an addiciton in one treatment is not reasonable for most people. That is like saying " I skipped lunch, why aren't I thin yet? " I did have one patient who stopped smoking after her first treatment.I really cant take credit for her success. She was extremely committed and ready. She came for 3 wks or so- with out having smoked between sessions. She was still not smoking 2 yrs later. This was very unusual -at least in my practice. In her case - I really believe that she was ready and willing to quit. I also remind them to drink alot of water throughout the day. Have some healthy snacks readily available. Do some sort of physical exercise- even if it is only walking. Engage in another activity that will hold their interest for a while, something that can be interrupted and picked up and put down again - preferably something that shows tangible results- such as gardening, drawing, knitting. I also share with them what other people told me has worked for them. For example, one man told me that for weeks before he planned to quit smoking - he would empty his ashtrays into clear jars. He would leave these throughout his house. He found the sight and smell disgusting and it reinforced his will to stop smoking. It is also helpful for the patient to say to themselves " smoking is a dirty habit and it is very unhealthy. " It is very difficult to disagree with yourself. Also since more and more places have a 'no smoking " rule - the patient could remind themselves that smoking is also very inconvenient and cumbersome. Remind them of how much money they are spending on sabotaging their health. Ask them if they can think of other things to spend the money on. I often advise people not to drink alcohol when they are first quitting because many people crave a cigarette with their drink. This can also be true of marijuana. It is important to remember - as with any addiction- relapses happen. when it does, don't give up. Just start again. The first few wks are the hardest. It does get easier. keep trying. Josie ---- Begin Original Message ---- " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:07:46 -0000 <Chinese Medicine > Stop Smoking Hi all, Does anyone have any good advice on additional lifestyle changes for a patient that wants to stop smoking. I'll be using the standard NADA points aswell as additional body points. He's on a formula for a different condition and wants to stop smoking. Will need additional lifestyle advice to back up my course of treatment. Any recommendations? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hi Josie, Attilio and all, That was a great post Josie. I thought I'd share something I use: Stop Smoking Support Program by By Leah Martino, OMD, L.Ac. Homepage Acupuncture Index After setting the appointment for my first smoking treatment as a new practitioner 12 years ago. I looked up the protocol. Only one paragraph outlined the treatment points and frequency of treatment. End of subject. Sound familiar? I administered the auricular treatment, sent the patient home and hoped for the best. There were times when this treatment worked. However, my results over time didn't equal my expectations. It wasn't until I learned that acupuncture only reduces nicotine cravings that I realized I didn't really understand the role of acupuncture and hadn't been coaching my patients properly. Later I received an announcement from James S. Olms, M.D., regarding the discovery of a new point, Tim Mee and the resulting successes for patients trying to stop smoking. Adding that point to my protocol showed promise. Over the years I continued to gather information about smoking. Through trial and error I gained further insight and developed a comprehensive stop- smoking program that gives effective and lasting results. There are numerous smoking-cessation point formulas, all of which can be quite effective. But there is no " magic bullet " treatment that can make the detox experience disappear. A successful acupuncture program requires proper case management which includes patient preparation, patient commitment, and education about what acupuncture will and will not do. There are five steps to the stop-smoking program I developed: telephone consultation; patient information; acupuncture treatment; herbal treatment; and maintenance. TELEPHONE CONSULTATION The telephone consultation is important, so your office staff needs to be properly trained. Along with the fear of quitting smoking and the fear of acupuncture in general, it takes lots of courage for a person to make the call. This is a time you can offer hope and encouragement. You can also weed out those who are not yet ready to quit. Speak personally to the person who wants to quit smoking. Explain that acupuncture is an effective tool to enable one to quit smoking by minimizing cravings, calming the nervous system and strengthening will power. Acupuncture can only work if the person is ready to quit and willing to commit to the process. I always mention that I've helped many people successfully quit smoking. Explain what people can expect acupuncture to do for them. Acupuncture intercepts messages sent by the brain to the body that demand more nicotine, thereby disrupting the addictive process. It can eliminate most cravings, but not the habit. Generally the treatment reduces cravings from 20 plus to only 3-5 a day. The person's responsibility is to make it through those few cravings, which you will discuss in greater detail at the initial appointment Outline your treatment program - how many visits, how often, cost, etc. Ask if the person is ready to quit now and would like to set an appointment. Set a morning appointment when possible. Acupuncture works best if the person is in detox. Instruct the client to refrain from smoking upon awakening, or for at least five hours before the treatment. PATIENT INFORMATION HANDOUT At the initial office visit I give a handout to the patient with the following instructions: Support Person - The decision to stop smoking can elicit uncomfortable emotions. Ask someone who is available to you in the next few weeks to act as a sounding board and provide encouragement when needed. Affirmation - An affirmation is a positive statement repeated often to create desired changes in your life. Repeating the affirmation helps not only to remind you why you are no longer smoking but imprints a new image of health so that the body can then produce health. Examples: " I am a non-smoker. I make healthy choices in my life. " Setting Boundaries - Set up contracts with other smokers to refrain from smoking in your presence. This includes spouses. When possible stay away from smokers until you feel more confident with your nonsmoking health status. Drink water - Research shows that dryness causes cravings. Sip water frequently throughout the day. Refrain from drinking coffee - Research shows that coffee causes cravings and dehydrates the body. Food choices - Eat a lot of carrots. celery and other vegetables throughout the next few days. Candies upset blood sugar level, which can aggravate smoking-withdrawal symptoms. Sugar substitutes such as NutraSweet are sweeter than sugar and cause further sugar cravings. Managing cravings - Cravings feel like they will last forever but actually fade in two minutes. Plan what you will do during a craving. Examples: Take your herbs; repeat your affirmation; breathe deeply; walk to another place; sing a song; dance; call your support person. ACUPUNCTURE TREATMENT During the initial treatment instruct patients to refrain from smoking or having any cigarettes in their possession. If they make it through the next 24 hours smoke-free, they have a 90% chance of being successful. I give four treatments total, two the first week, two days apart, and two follow-up appointments a week apart. I've tried many ear points and find the following points work best: Ear points: Shenmen-alleviates tension Kidney- increases will power Master Point Zero (Nogier system) returns the body to homeostatic balance Lung 1 or 2 - relieves withdrawal symptoms Hunger - Diminishes appetite and cravings. Body points: Tim Mee-located at the level of Lung 7, proximal to L.I. 5 in a depression between the tendons that make up the anatomical snuffbox. Perpendicular needle insertion. LI 4 (Hegu) - pacifies spirit, regulates chi and blood. Treatment Method: Treat ear and body points on one side only, alternating sides with each visit. Using electrical stimulation, connect a positive (red) clip to ear Shen Men and negative (black) clip to hand Tim Mee, and positive (red) clip to hand LI-4 and negative (black) to ear Lung 1 or 2 using 10 Hz for 40-45 minutes. After removing the needles, apply either ear press needles or silver magrain pellets to the ear points. HERBS There are three areas to address for herbal support: Lung yin tonic. Remember that dryness causes cravings. Liver Qi stagnation. Craving Support. Any quality herbal products can be used. I use Seven Forest Lily 14 by ITM, similar to Ophiopogon Combination, for lung yin support. Although clients don't feel a direct effect from Lily 14, when I added it to my treatment, they reported a feeling of sustenance and " not running on empty. " I recommend a second bottle and many people continue taking it for months. Other formulas may be indicated if there is lung disease. Ardisia 16 (Seven Forest by ITM), similar to Bupleurum Dragon Bone, helps relieve irritability and anxiety associated with detox. I instruct the client to take it three times a day for two days, then on an as-needed basis. Many people use this formula to help them through stressful situations. I believe it helps minimize relapse. Allertox Tobacco by Apex Energetics, is a homeopathic remedy which relieves tobacco cravings. Any homeopathic formulas for smoking cessation could be helpful. I haven't used Chinese smelling herbs, but they would probably serve the same purpose. MAINTENANCE After the initial four treatments, the focus becomes wellness, so differential diagnosis and constitutional work is appropriate. I recommend monthly treatments for four to six months. I usually include auricular points in the treatment since patients generally look forward to the treatment that gave them results. RECIDIVISM No one expects a person to quit drinking alcohol by attending a few AA meetings. Quitting smoking is only the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of triggers that can cause relapse. Cigarettes can act as a shield to insulate uncomfortable feelings and situations. A new nonsmoker can feel vulnerable and confused when trying to handle a stressful situation. Monthly treatments provide support and bring the person back into harmony. It is not our job to provide therapy. However, we can help the client clarify feelings. If a person " slips " and smokes, question what was really at issue, and how could the person handle it differently. Relapse is often part of the process. It is important to change the negative, failure concept in assessing what happened and how the person can use the experience to prevent the situation from occurring again. Encourage people to call immediately if necessary to get back on track. People sometimes request to try quitting wit fewer sessions, or without herbs. I remember Iris Gold's words of wisdom in her practice building seminar, " This is the way I work. " I tell people, " If you follow my program you will be successful. " Compromise is rarely effective. I built some of my practice around my smoking program. I find this work to be very rewarding and beneficial for future referrals. Smoking treatments are an effective way to increase credibility of our profession and to help mainstream acupuncture into modern health care. ---- ---------- Resource listings do not signify an endorsement of the products mentioned in this article. For more information, please contact: Institute for Traditional Medcine (Lily 14, Ardisia 16) at 800-544- 7504, Longherb Health Products, Inc., 800-766-5372, (Chinese smelling herbs) and Apex Energetics, 800-736-4381 (Allertox Tobacco). Institute for Traditional Medicine Aromatic herbs as an adjunct to acupuncture stop-smoking treatment programs: Longherb Health Products, Inc. 3007 E. Washington Avenue Fairfield, IA 52556 Tel: (800) 766-5372 Allertox Tobacco, by Futureplex Reprinted with permission form the California Journal of Oriental Medicine. © Acupuncture.com 2004, Chinese Medicine , " Josie Donahue Hermes " <medicinemom@m...> wrote: > attilio, > for my patients that want to quit smoking- I've found the best > results when they are willing to come in 3 x for the first 2wks then > 2x wk for 2 wks then weekly and so on, tapering the treatments. This > is difficult for most people to afford financially -but that is what > I suggest for best results. > > It is frustrating when a person wants to try acupuncture to quit > smoking- only to have one treatment and then declare- " Acupuncture > doesnt work " . > > I make this point clear. The person has their addiction 24 hrs a day > for however long- acupuncture will help - but the patient does have > to work at it too.To expect one treatment to cure an addiciton in one > treatment is not reasonable for most people. That is like saying " I > skipped lunch, why aren't I thin yet? " > > > > I did have one patient who stopped smoking after her first > treatment.I really cant take credit for her success. She was > extremely committed and ready. She came for 3 wks or so- with out > having smoked between sessions. She was still not smoking 2 yrs > later. This was very unusual -at least in my practice. In her case - > I really believe that she was ready and willing to quit. > > > I also remind them to drink alot of water throughout the day. > > Have some healthy snacks readily available. > > Do some sort of physical exercise- even if it is only walking. > > Engage in another activity that will hold their interest for a while, > something that can be interrupted and picked up and put down again - > preferably something that shows tangible results- such as gardening, > drawing, knitting. > > I also share with them what other people told me has worked for them. > For example, one man told me that for weeks before he planned to quit > smoking - he would empty his ashtrays into clear jars. He would leave > these throughout his house. He found the sight and smell disgusting > and it reinforced his will to stop smoking. > > It is also helpful for the patient to say to themselves " smoking is a > dirty habit and it is very unhealthy. " It is very difficult to > disagree with yourself. > > > > Also since more and more places have a 'no smoking " rule - the > patient could remind themselves that smoking is also very > inconvenient and cumbersome. > > Remind them of how much money they are spending on sabotaging their > health. Ask them if they can think of other things to spend the money > on. > > I often advise people not to drink alcohol when they are first > quitting because many people crave a cigarette with their drink. This > can also be true of marijuana. > > It is important to remember - as with any addiction- relapses happen. > when it does, don't give up. Just start again. The first few wks are > the hardest. It does get easier. keep trying. > > > > Josie > > > > > > ---- Begin Original Message ---- > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> > Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:07:46 -0000 > <Chinese Medicine > > Stop Smoking > > > > Hi all, > > Does anyone have any good advice on additional lifestyle changes for a > patient that wants to stop smoking. > > I'll be using the standard NADA points aswell as additional body > points. > He's on a formula for a different condition and wants to stop > smoking. > > Will need additional lifestyle advice to back up my course of > treatment. > > Any recommendations? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Many thanks to all for your positive replies. I too have treated a number of stop-smoking patients. They often think that acupuncture is the magic-bullet and will make it so easy to stop. They usually have one treatment and then don't come back. Acupuncture and herbal medicine can only work as part of a team of treatments, lifestyle changes and positive perceptions. Shame this wasn't taught in my TCM school. It's always the same nowadays that what you learn is not what you need. It's left up to a enthusiastic practitioner to observe and find the answers to these problems. Thank God for the internet and forums such as these, otherwise we could be stabbing away (no pun intended) in the dark for years. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com heylaurag [heylaurag] 08 December 2004 01:26 Chinese Medicine Re: Stop Smoking Hi Josie, Attilio and all, That was a great post Josie. I thought I'd share something I use: Stop Smoking Support Program by By Leah Martino, OMD, L.Ac. Homepage Acupuncture Index Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hi, all, I have stop smoking patients pay for 5 tx up front. They are more than willing to use them up, as the plan is 5 consecutive days. Since I work Tu, We, Th now, have changed it to 3 consecutive days and two followups the next week. Also, even though they may want to discontinue tx, the only way for non-used days is via check mailed to them or they can have their non-used money credited to another patient. Keeping the money in your clinic is the key! Since I'm on a roll with finances here, we are not banks. Therefore, for any appointment, collect your money upfront (day of treatment), including copays. If you do insurance billing, companies do not want you billing their clients for any reason. Living in a state capitol where money is very tight for my patients, most have benefits for AP. There are many money management tips that your local Chamber of Commerce, network group, or bank will be happy to enlighten you with any questions you have. Happy holidays, all, Pam Price > > Many thanks to all for your positive replies. > > I too have treated a number of stop-smoking patients. They often think > that > acupuncture is the magic-bullet and will make it so easy to stop. They > usually have one treatment and then don't come back. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Mine is similar to Pam’s. I sell my stop smoking plan as a package of 10 appointments for a reasonable fee. The first treatment is done the day they STOP smoking and it is a full, one hour, lying down, two-sided treatment intended to relax the patient. They pay the whole fee up front. I recommend they use their other 9 “mini” treatments on consecutive days (as I am available) that first week or so and they can use the remaining appointment for up to a year. (My “mini” treatments are 45-50 minute sitting treatments, in the waiting room like they would be at a detox center. This allows for my price to stay affordable). Perhaps they’ll only need 5 “mini” treatments for the stop smoking part, but 3 months later or so, the in-laws will visit or some stressful situation will occur and they’ll want to smoke. They can come in then for another “mini” treatment (up to a year) to maintain sanity. I also tell my patients, as this has been my experience, that these treatments work BEST if the patient is willing to quit cold turkey. I explain that acupuncture helps with the withdrawal process from nicotine, tobacco (and god knows what else that is addictive now in cigarettes). If they are not truly withdrawing, it won’t be as effective. The “patch”, cutting down on cigarettes or nicotine gum is not withdrawal, it’s substitution. For the patients who are willing to do cold turkey, this makes quitting much easier than without acupuncture. In my experience, I have found this method is effective 80% of the time. If they are doing the patch, gum, cutting down, etc., it’s closer to 25%. So, anymore, I don’t take people on unless they are willing to go cold turkey. I hate to fail and I hate to see them fail, too. _____ Pam Price [needledoc2] Wednesday, December 08, 2004 2:34 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Stop Smoking Hi, all, I have stop smoking patients pay for 5 tx up front. They are more than willing to use them up, as the plan is 5 consecutive days. Since I work Tu, We, Th now, have changed it to 3 consecutive days and two followups the next week. Also, even though they may want to discontinue tx, the only way for non-used days is via check mailed to them or they can have their non-used money credited to another patient. Keeping the money in your clinic is the key! Since I'm on a roll with finances here, we are not banks. Therefore, for any appointment, collect your money upfront (day of treatment), including copays. If you do insurance billing, companies do not want you billing their clients for any reason. Living in a state capitol where money is very tight for my patients, most have benefits for AP. There are many money management tips that your local Chamber of Commerce, network group, or bank will be happy to enlighten you with any questions you have. Happy holidays, all, Pam Price > > Many thanks to all for your positive replies. > > I too have treated a number of stop-smoking patients. They often think > that > acupuncture is the magic-bullet and will make it so easy to stop. They > usually have one treatment and then don't come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Pam, I would like to share with you a sad story about a practitioner in San Diego who was arrested for having his patients pay upfront. He also conducted his business in an unethical manner. He had his licensed suspended. When I was researching the issue of prepay for a seminar that I had put together I ran across an online article on a decision by the NAIC (national association of insurance commissioners). They issued an opinion based upon the way practitioners of healthcare were conducting business and the legal definition of insurance. Their conclusion was that prepay is the conducting of insurance and warned providers to contact their own insurance boards for further clarification and guidelines. This article seemed to target the chiropractors as they were mentioned. I have heard and seen many ads by this group advertising discounted wellness services for prepayment. They also encouraged the state insurance commisioners to start enforcement. If it was up to me I would not risk it. If you have further questions, let me know. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " Pam Price " <needledoc2 >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: Stop Smoking >Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:33:45 -0800 > > >Hi, all, >I have stop smoking patients pay for 5 tx up front. They are more than >willing to use them up, as the plan is 5 consecutive days. Since I work Tu, >We, Th now, have changed it to 3 consecutive days and two followups the >next >week. Also, even though they may want to discontinue tx, the only way for >non-used days is via check mailed to them or they can have their non-used >money credited to another patient. Keeping the money in your clinic is the >key! > >Since I'm on a roll with finances here, we are not banks. Therefore, for >any >appointment, collect your money upfront (day of treatment), including >copays. If you do insurance billing, companies do not want you billing >their >clients for any reason. Living in a state capitol where money is very tight >for my patients, most have benefits for AP. There are many money management >tips that your local Chamber of Commerce, network group, or bank will be >happy to enlighten you with any questions you have. > >Happy holidays, all, >Pam Price > > > > Many thanks to all for your positive replies. > > > > I too have treated a number of stop-smoking patients. They often think > > that > > acupuncture is the magic-bullet and will make it so easy to stop. They > > usually have one treatment and then don't come back. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Attilio, I think you summed up many practitioner's feelings. It would be great if some of the schools would recognize this need. The CEU classes are great. Frequently, however, there is no post-seminar contact in order to ask more specific questions. Thanks for a great forum. I am new to the group and have enjoyed the ability to read emails regarding different TCM topics. Larlee L.Ac. Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: Many thanks to all for your positive replies. I too have treated a number of stop-smoking patients. They often think that acupuncture is the magic-bullet and will make it so easy to stop. They usually have one treatment and then don't come back. Acupuncture and herbal medicine can only work as part of a team of treatments, lifestyle changes and positive perceptions. Shame this wasn't taught in my TCM school. It's always the same nowadays that what you learn is not what you need. It's left up to a enthusiastic practitioner to observe and find the answers to these problems. Thank God for the internet and forums such as these, otherwise we could be stabbing away (no pun intended) in the dark for years. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com heylaurag [heylaurag] 08 December 2004 01:26 Chinese Medicine Re: Stop Smoking Hi Josie, Attilio and all, That was a great post Josie. I thought I'd share something I use: Stop Smoking Support Program by By Leah Martino, OMD, L.Ac. Homepage Acupuncture Index Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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