Guest guest Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Richard; Please read what was actually written again and attempt to figure it out. How much is paid for 15 minutes of ultrasound in your area? Multiply that times 3 for 15 minutes of acupuncture, sans electricity. In Pa, it is $24 for the ultrasound. Hey. The deal is done and lets try and make of it what we can, working with the insurers to get the best we can for our services. If we feel this is not working, we go to the CPT folks and ask for changes. Plus, we can still use ABC codes where they are accepted. I like to try ABC codes first, then when they are rejected, use CPT. David Molony " What is the relative unit value of our services? The work value of a 15-minute acupuncture treatment is .60. This compares with the work value of .21 for 15 minutes of ultrasound. This is an excellent valuation for our services and represents a real triumph for the profession. Because our codes are now timed, our work value will rise with the tide as other professions fight to increase reimbursement for their services. Additional 15 minutes of acupuncture has a work value of .55. Electroacupuncture is valued at .65 and additional electroacupuncture is valued at .60. The additional time codes do not include additional pre- and postservice time. It is assumed that the additional periods of insertion do not require additional pre- and postservice work. How much should I charge? Regardless of the new CPT codes or Relative Unit Values assigned to these codes, you must decide what your services are worth. Neither the AMA nor the insurance industry is setting your fees by assigning a work value to your services. You set your fees based on your own business needs and what the average cash-paying patient is willing to pay for your services. In other words, it is the free market, not the insurance company that determines the value of your services. " In a message dated 11/30/04 6:37:22 PM, acudoc11 writes: > > AAOM > David > > While going through this.....I seemed to have miss read the decimal point. > > If this is correct at .60 of a single RVU then that would equate (inFlorida > at $6 per RVU) to about $3.60 for an acupuncture treatment. I understand in > New > Mexico the cost factor is around $12 per RVU so there the first 15 minutes > would be billed at $7.20. > > Would you care to elaborate and/or clarify? > > Richard > > > In a message dated 11/29/04 4:58:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > acuman1 > writes: > What is the relative unit value of our services? > The work value of a 15-minute acupuncture treatment is .60. This compares > with the work value of .21 for 15 minutes of ultrasound. This is an > excellent > valuation for our services and represents a real triumph for the profession. > Because our codes are now timed, our work value will rise with the tide as > other > professions fight to increase reimbursement for their services. > > Additional 15 minutes of acupuncture has a work value of .55. > Electroacupuncture is valued at .65 and additional electroacupuncture is > valued at .60. The > additional time codes do not include additional pre- and postservice time. > It > is assumed that the additional periods of insertion do not require > additional > pre- and postservice work. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 David, So, based on what you’re saying, in PA, a 15-minute increment of acupuncture (97810) would be 3 times what an ultrasound treatment would be (in your example of $24). So, essentially $72. Is that correct?? It was earlier recommended the 2 units would comprise a typical treatment or billing which would make it $144. Now we KNOW that won’t be happening. I’m just trying to clarify, because earlier someone had said that .6 RVU’s would amount to about $22.00 (based on the medicare RVU of $37). Your information is in direct contrast to the other and I’m trying to figure out why the discrepancy??? Could you shed any light on this? Thanks, barb _____ acuman1 [acuman1] Saturday, December 04, 2004 10:36 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: new acupu ncture codes Richard; Please read what was actually written again and attempt to figure it out. How much is paid for 15 minutes of ultrasound in your area? Multiply that times 3 for 15 minutes of acupuncture, sans electricity. In Pa, it is $24 for the ultrasound. Hey. The deal is done and lets try and make of it what we can, working with the insurers to get the best we can for our services. If we feel this is not working, we go to the CPT folks and ask for changes. Plus, we can still use ABC codes where they are accepted. I like to try ABC codes first, then when they are rejected, use CPT. David Molony " What is the relative unit value of our services? The work value of a 15-minute acupuncture treatment is .60. This compares with the work value of .21 for 15 minutes of ultrasound. This is an excellent valuation for our services and represents a real triumph for the profession Because our codes are now timed, our work value will rise with the tide as other professions fight to increase reimbursement for their services. Additional 15 minutes of acupuncture has a work value of .55. Electroacupuncture is valued at .65 and additional electroacupuncture is valued at .60. The additional time codes do not include additional pre- and postservice time. It is assumed that the additional periods of insertion do not require additional pre- and postservice work. How much should I charge? Regardless of the new CPT codes or Relative Unit Values assigned to these codes, you must decide what your services are worth. Neither the AMA nor the insurance industry is setting your fees by assigning a work value to your services. You set your fees based on your own business needs and what the average cash-paying patient is willing to pay for your services. In other words, it is the free market, not the insurance company that determines the value of your services. " In a message dated 11/30/04 6:37:22 PM, acudoc11 writes: > > AAOM > David > > While going through this.....I seemed to have miss read the decimal point. > > If this is correct at .60 of a single RVU then that would equate (inFlorida > at $6 per RVU) to about $3.60 for an acupuncture treatment. I understand in > New > Mexico the cost factor is around $12 per RVU so there the first 15 minutes > would be billed at $7.20. > > Would you care to elaborate and/or clarify? > > Richard > > > In a message dated 11/29/04 4:58:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > acuman1 > writes: > What is the relative unit value of our services? > The work value of a 15-minute acupuncture treatment is .60. This compares > with the work value of .21 for 15 minutes of ultrasound. This is an > excellent > valuation for our services and represents a real triumph for the profession. > Because our codes are now timed, our work value will rise with the tide as > other > professions fight to increase reimbursement for their services. > > Additional 15 minutes of acupuncture has a work value of .55. > Electroacupuncture is valued at .65 and additional electroacupuncture is > valued at .60. The > additional time codes do not include additional pre- and postservice time. > It > is assumed that the additional periods of insertion do not require > additional > pre- and postservice work. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 David Molony We differ in our opinions and strategies and thats fine. AOMNC took the road as you may well know of NOT dealing with AMA/CPT at all.... especially when it was a foregone conclusion that they totally represent our economic competitors in healthcare (MDs/DOs). AMA is a professional organization formed by and for the benefit of ONLY MDs/DOs. That they received the ability to regulate AP/OM codes is ludicrous not to mention unconstitutional yet NO ONE or ORGANIZATION in the AP/OM profession has ever challenged this. A David Wells quote.... Further Mr. Wells states, " Bear in mind that our existing acupuncture and electroacupuncture codes were due to expire at the end of 2004. If we did not succeed in getting those reinstated, we would have no way to bill. If we overreached, we may not have ended up with ANY code at all. " AOMNC disagrees. We would have what we right now have. The ABC Codes and if the carriers continued to refuse to reimburse when there were no other codes they could have been easily sued. That would have been the IDEAL position to be in........thereby placing the US Government (DHHS/CMS) into the public view regarding it's unconstitutional delegation to a private MD organization a matter of national importance. The US government CAN NOT constitutionally delegate such a matter of national importance to such an organization AND certainly not in such a monoplistic way. If you don;t know.....you should. It is a violation of Civil Rights and continues to be so and that issue is coming forward to be dealt with. Eventually the ABC Codes WILL be adopted and the acupuncture codes within CPT will go bye-bye just where they belong....in the round file. It is AOMNCs opinion that we delay the progress of the profession by dealing with such organizations. The reasons are obvious. I will quote from a colleague who did some additional RBRVS RVU analysis: " .......consider that a chiropractic adjustment for two regions is 0.70. How could chiropractic codes have a higher RVU compared to the invasive and SURGICAL procedure of acupuncture? Does the average chiropractor handle biohazard materials and waste like syringes, bloodied cotton balls, acupuncture needles? Does the risk of chiropractic manipulations involve puncturing vital organs with surgical instruments, i.e., acupuncture needles? Does the 4 year TCM/acupuncture programs that more and more TCM schools and states require differ meaningfully from Chiropractic educational requirements? Do Chiropractors practice a complete medical system? Which practitioner experiences more stress when performing their primary treatment modality?.... Which patient is at a greater risk of injury given the inherent nature of the respective treatment modalities? No doubt the outcome makes apparent that we didn't get kissed first again before.... " One could say that AAOM has taken the barganing position with the enemy while AOMNC is taking a hard stand and doesn't deal with monopolistic enemies. AOMNC sees..... that at the end of the road the AP/OM profession in the US will have its recognition, respect, inclusion and codes and not because we bargained...but because we took the hard stance and would not allow the bullies to continue their illegal and unconstitutional acts. Richard Freiberg a message dated 12/4/2004 1:36:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, acuman1 writes: Richard; Please read what was actually written again and attempt to figure it out. How much is paid for 15 minutes of ultrasound in your area? Multiply that times 3 for 15 minutes of acupuncture, sans electricity. In Pa, it is $24 for the ultrasound. Hey. The deal is done and lets try and make of it what we can, working with the insurers to get the best we can for our services. If we feel this is not working, we go to the CPT folks and ask for changes. Plus, we can still use ABC codes where they are accepted. I like to try ABC codes first, then when they are rejected, use CPT. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 David No matter how many ways you cut it, twist it, multiply it or massage it.......$22.74 for 15 minutes of acupuncture DOES NOT represent what APs should be paid for the administration of acupuncture. Maybe thats a good rate in Philadelphia where LAcs HAVE to get permission from the economic enemy before they can even administer acupuncture but no where else have I heard that rate would ever be acceptable. As far as the majority concerned this AAOM deal might be DONE for AAOM members but certainly not for all 20,000+ AP/OM licensees in the USA unless of course they remain apathetic and silent on the issue. I on the other hand am already actively working with some of the TOP insurers to adopt the ABC Codes. See thats the difference between us....I won't ever work with the economic enemy where others will. Richard In a message dated 12/4/2004 1:36:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, acuman1 writes: Richard; Please read what was actually written again and attempt to figure it out. How much is paid for 15 minutes of ultrasound in your area? Multiply that times 3 for 15 minutes of acupuncture, sans electricity. In Pa, it is $24 for the ultrasound. Hey. The deal is done and lets try and make of it what we can, working with the insurers to get the best we can for our services. If we feel this is not working, we go to the CPT folks and ask for changes. Plus, we can still use ABC codes where they are accepted. I like to try ABC codes first, then when they are rejected, use CPT. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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