Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Hi Jutta, & All, Jutta wrote: > Hi Phil and Are, Thanks for your great advice. I will try Thuja > first. Phil, what do you think of a sarcoid nosode ? Do you have > any experience with that? The horse has no history of scrotal/cord > lesion or sensitivity in that area. I will keep you informed of any > progress, thanks again, kind regards, Jutta Sorry, Jutta, I have much less first-hand experience of homeopathy than of AP. Also, I have never treated a sarcoid with EITHER Thuja or a nosode because I have never had to treat treat sarcoids! WWW has only 428 hits for the profile: nosode sarcoid OR sarcoids OR wart OR warts OR papilloma OR papillomas [ http://tinyurl.com/5qgv8 ] It has NO hits for the profile: " sarcoid nosode " This means that the nosode in the 428 hits were OTHER THAN sarcoid nosode. In contrast, WWW has about 15,900 hits for the profile: thuja sarcoid OR sarcoids OR wart OR warts OR papilloma OR papillomas [ http://tinyurl.com/5u5a4 ] IMO, Thuja is a better option. If it fails, I would try acupuncture, as in my earlier mail. If THAT fails (within a few weeks), I would try " Cansema Black Salve " . See: http://tinyurl.com/64ng5 Ingredients in different formulations of Black Salve are at: http://health.centreforce.com/health/cansemaorder.html A list of other ingredients in the company's list and their actions are at: http://health.centreforce.com/health/formulas.html The Cansema formula (ingredients, percentages, and manufacturing methods) has evolved over time, largely to improve performance and minimize pain management issues. The current ingredients are: Zinc chloride (Cl2Zn) Chaparral (Larrea mexicata) Bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis) Galangal root (Alpinia officinarium) or ginger root (Zingiber officinale) Graviola leaf (Annona muricata) Bitter melon seed (Momordica charantia) Glycerine (used as a humectant, to keep the product moist). DMSO (Dimethylsulphoxidein) in Cansema Deep Tieeue Variants include emu oil and DMSO (USP) added at 15% to aid skin penetration for deeper lesions. There is also a veterinary version, not as strong (escharotic), and taking some extra days to work. See: http://www.altcancer.com/cansema_v.htm There also are versions for internal use. Some of the time-lapse photos of the salve at work are most impressive. See: http://www.diamondjdonkeys.com/Sassie.htm " We then thought that it must be some sort of sarcoid growth and consulted with our natural vet contact. We started Sassie on nosode sarcoid medicine and a topical viral cream; since the most common sarcoids are caused by a virus. There was no change in the size or the irritated look of the lump, so we discontinued the medicines " . Later, they had surgery + chemo, which failed, and they tried " Cansema Black Salve " . http://www.altcancer.com/testimonials/elmo.htm http://www.altcancer.com/can2.htm http://www.altcancer.com/can2b.htm http://www.altcancer.com/can2c.htm Judge the outcomes for yourself! Best wishes, Phil PS: Was the gelding vaccinated in the months before the onset of the sarcoid? Some WWW sources claim that sarcoids can arise as a side-effect of vaccines. This is controversial, because others say that autovaccination helpt to prevent relapse after sarcoid surgery. For example: Therapeutic vaccines in the treatment of equine papilloma virus infection [ http://tinyurl.com/6wy87 ]: NOLTE, O., Weiss, H.-E., & Sonntag, H.-G. Hygiene Institute, Dept. of Hygiene & Medical Microbiology, Im Neuenheimer Feld 324, D-69120 Heidelberg Tel.: +49/6221/567812; Fax.: +49/6221/565627; E-mail: Oliver_Nolte P57 3rd Annual Conference on Vaccine Research Washington D.C. April 30th -Mai 2nd 2000. Background: Equine sarcoids (Fig. 1) are probably the most common manifestations of cutanous tumors in horses and it`s phylogenetic relatives. It is discussed that equine papilloma virus is the causative agent of this in most cases benigne tumor (1). However, treatment is complicated by a high rate of relapse after surgery. After carbon dioxide laser surgery the rate of relapse was reported to be 38% (2). Because of that high rate of recurrence a great variety of post- operative preventative treatments have been proposed. These proposals include non specific treatment using emulsified BCG (Mycobacterium tuberculosis Bacillus Calmette Guerin, see Ref. 3) or other nonspecific immune stimulating preparations. However, the success and usefulness of those methods is subject of controversy debate (4). Another method of treatment is the use of tumor material to stimulate the immune system specifically (5). Basing on our experience in using autovaccination to treat various forms of infectious diseases in humans (see for instance Poster 1, this conference) and animals (see also talk S40, this conference), we started to evaluate patient specific autovaccination (Fig. 2) for the prevention of post-operative recurrent sarcoids. Conclusions: Autovaccination for prevention of recurrent equine sarcoids, which are normally observed quite often following surgery, seems to be a useful method of treatment. The rate of recurrence was 12.9 % when our autovaccine was used for prevention, thus being much lower than reported previously (2). However, a long time observation is necessary to evaluate the actual success rate of this methodology. Although there is no significant difference in the time without relapse between those animals vaccinated after primary and after recurrent sarcoids, long term studies are necessary to examine whether primary or secondary sarcoids are of influence concerning efficacy of autovaccination. Analysis of changes in the lymphocyte sub-populations in the blood of six horses during the course of autovaccination revealed no differences. The immunological background of the functioning of autovaccines therefor remains unknown. The autovaccine in general seems to be safe (because only material is used which is already recognized by the immune system). However, one of the horses in this study was reported to have shown adverse reaction (i.e. shock). The reason for this is hitherto unknown, the phenomena must be taken into account when using autovaccines. However, out of several thousand animals autovaccinated against a variety of micro-organisms and diseases throughout the last years, this was the first report of serious adverse effects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> J wrote [to PA-L]: > Hi all, We have a 4 year old gelding with a sarcoid growing just > above the medial aspect of the left eye. During the summer we had > it removed surgically from the roots with a good prognosis given. > However, in the last month it has reappeared and is now 2.5cm in > length at base and 0.5cm in height. We feel that a further > operation may not prove successful and wonder if any of you had > success in treating a sarcoid by alternative means? Kind regards, J > & I I would begin Tx here with a single dose of Thuja C30 and wait 4 days to see what happens. If there is no improvement, I would try Are Thoresen's method. Are gave a paper at the IVAS Congress, in Oostende, on his methods of treating cancer and sarcoids. He uses the Ko Cycle - just one needle on the CHANNEL that CONTROLS the pathway or organ of the primary lesion (cancer / sarcoid). If the sarcoid is EXACTLY on BL (Water) Channel, the KO (Controlling) Channel is SP-EARTH. Try needling ONE Pt on SP Channel. It could be SP01 (Jing/Ting- Well Pt), or SP09-He-Sea-WATER Pt, or any SP Pt that your instinct suggests. Needle the LEFT Pt and leave it in for 10-20 minutes. If no improvement after 14 days, try another session, or email Are at " Are Thoresen " <arethore Nose and penis/vagina are related via the Chongmai, which connects the perineum/groin area/organs to the vomeronasal organ, and LI20 connects to ST01 (eye). KI Governs testis and cornea, and BL Channel is mate of KI. Testicles on their cords are like eyes on their optic nerves. By any chance does/did the horse have a badly-healed scrotal/cord incision, or sensitivity on the cord? [best regards, Phil] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hi Jutta, & All, Jutta wrote: > Hi Phil and Are, Thanks for your great advice. I will try Thuja > first. Phil, what do you think of a sarcoid nosode ? Do you have > any experience with that? The horse has no history of scrotal/cord > lesion or sensitivity in that area. I will keep you informed of any > progress, thanks again, kind regards, Jutta Sorry, Jutta, I have much less first-hand experience of homeopathy than of AP. Also, I have never treated a sarcoid with EITHER Thuja or a nosode because I have never had to treat treat sarcoids! WWW has only 428 hits for the profile: nosode sarcoid OR sarcoids OR wart OR warts OR papilloma OR papillomas [ http://tinyurl.com/5qgv8 ] It has NO hits for the profile: " sarcoid nosode " This means that the nosode in the 428 hits were OTHER THAN sarcoid nosode. In contrast, WWW has about 15,900 hits for the profile: thuja sarcoid OR sarcoids OR wart OR warts OR papilloma OR papillomas [ http://tinyurl.com/5u5a4 ] IMO, Thuja is a better option. If it fails, I would try acupuncture, as in my earlier mail. If THAT fails (within a few weeks), I would try " Cansema Black Salve " . See: http://tinyurl.com/64ng5 Ingredients in different formulations of Black Salve are at: http://health.centreforce.com/health/cansemaorder.html A list of other ingredients in the company's list and their actions are at: http://health.centreforce.com/health/formulas.html The Cansema formula (ingredients, percentages, and manufacturing methods) has evolved over time, largely to improve performance and minimize pain management issues. The current ingredients are: Zinc chloride (Cl2Zn) Chaparral (Larrea mexicata) Bloodroot (Sanguinaria canadensis) Galangal root (Alpinia officinarium) or ginger root (Zingiber officinale) Graviola leaf (Annona muricata) Bitter melon seed (Momordica charantia) Glycerine (used as a humectant, to keep the product moist). DMSO (Dimethylsulphoxidein) in Cansema Deep Tieeue Variants include emu oil and DMSO (USP) added at 15% to aid skin penetration for deeper lesions. There is also a veterinary version, not as strong (escharotic), and taking some extra days to work. See: http://www.altcancer.com/cansema_v.htm There also are versions for internal use. Some of the time-lapse photos of the salve at work are most impressive. See: http://www.diamondjdonkeys.com/Sassie.htm " We then thought that it must be some sort of sarcoid growth and consulted with our natural vet contact. We started Sassie on nosode sarcoid medicine and a topical viral cream; since the most common sarcoids are caused by a virus. There was no change in the size or the irritated look of the lump, so we discontinued the medicines " . Later, they had surgery + chemo, which failed, and they tried " Cansema Black Salve " . http://www.altcancer.com/testimonials/elmo.htm http://www.altcancer.com/can2.htm http://www.altcancer.com/can2b.htm http://www.altcancer.com/can2c.htm Judge the outcomes for yourself! Best wishes, Phil PS: Was the gelding vaccinated in the months before the onset of the sarcoid? Some WWW sources claim that sarcoids can arise as a side-effect of vaccines. This is controversial, because others say that autovaccination helpt to prevent relapse after sarcoid surgery. For example: Therapeutic vaccines in the treatment of equine papilloma virus infection [ http://tinyurl.com/6wy87 ]: NOLTE, O., Weiss, H.-E., & Sonntag, H.-G. Hygiene Institute, Dept. of Hygiene & Medical Microbiology, Im Neuenheimer Feld 324, D-69120 Heidelberg Tel.: +49/6221/567812; Fax.: +49/6221/565627; E-mail: Oliver_Nolte P57 3rd Annual Conference on Vaccine Research Washington D.C. April 30th -Mai 2nd 2000. Background: Equine sarcoids (Fig. 1) are probably the most common manifestations of cutanous tumors in horses and it`s phylogenetic relatives. It is discussed that equine papilloma virus is the causative agent of this in most cases benigne tumor (1). However, treatment is complicated by a high rate of relapse after surgery. After carbon dioxide laser surgery the rate of relapse was reported to be 38% (2). Because of that high rate of recurrence a great variety of post- operative preventative treatments have been proposed. These proposals include non specific treatment using emulsified BCG (Mycobacterium tuberculosis Bacillus Calmette Guerin, see Ref. 3) or other nonspecific immune stimulating preparations. However, the success and usefulness of those methods is subject of controversy debate (4). Another method of treatment is the use of tumor material to stimulate the immune system specifically (5). Basing on our experience in using autovaccination to treat various forms of infectious diseases in humans (see for instance Poster 1, this conference) and animals (see also talk S40, this conference), we started to evaluate patient specific autovaccination (Fig. 2) for the prevention of post-operative recurrent sarcoids. Conclusions: Autovaccination for prevention of recurrent equine sarcoids, which are normally observed quite often following surgery, seems to be a useful method of treatment. The rate of recurrence was 12.9 % when our autovaccine was used for prevention, thus being much lower than reported previously (2). However, a long time observation is necessary to evaluate the actual success rate of this methodology. Although there is no significant difference in the time without relapse between those animals vaccinated after primary and after recurrent sarcoids, long term studies are necessary to examine whether primary or secondary sarcoids are of influence concerning efficacy of autovaccination. Analysis of changes in the lymphocyte sub-populations in the blood of six horses during the course of autovaccination revealed no differences. The immunological background of the functioning of autovaccines therefor remains unknown. The autovaccine in general seems to be safe (because only material is used which is already recognized by the immune system). However, one of the horses in this study was reported to have shown adverse reaction (i.e. shock). The reason for this is hitherto unknown, the phenomena must be taken into account when using autovaccines. However, out of several thousand animals autovaccinated against a variety of micro-organisms and diseases throughout the last years, this was the first report of serious adverse effects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> J wrote [to PA-L]: > Hi all, We have a 4 year old gelding with a sarcoid growing just > above the medial aspect of the left eye. During the summer we had > it removed surgically from the roots with a good prognosis given. > However, in the last month it has reappeared and is now 2.5cm in > length at base and 0.5cm in height. We feel that a further > operation may not prove successful and wonder if any of you had > success in treating a sarcoid by alternative means? Kind regards, J > & I I would begin Tx here with a single dose of Thuja C30 and wait 4 days to see what happens. If there is no improvement, I would try Are Thoresen's method. Are gave a paper at the IVAS Congress, in Oostende, on his methods of treating cancer and sarcoids. He uses the Ko Cycle - just one needle on the CHANNEL that CONTROLS the pathway or organ of the primary lesion (cancer / sarcoid). If the sarcoid is EXACTLY on BL (Water) Channel, the KO (Controlling) Channel is SP-EARTH. Try needling ONE Pt on SP Channel. It could be SP01 (Jing/Ting- Well Pt), or SP09-He-Sea-WATER Pt, or any SP Pt that your instinct suggests. Needle the LEFT Pt and leave it in for 10-20 minutes. If no improvement after 14 days, try another session, or email Are at " Are Thoresen " <arethore Nose and penis/vagina are related via the Chongmai, which connects the perineum/groin area/organs to the vomeronasal organ, and LI20 connects to ST01 (eye). KI Governs testis and cornea, and BL Channel is mate of KI. Testicles on their cords are like eyes on their optic nerves. By any chance does/did the horse have a badly-healed scrotal/cord incision, or sensitivity on the cord? [best regards, Phil] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Jutta (??? – not sure of the name of the original poster) I have had to deal w/ equine sarcoids -- they are not an easy condition to treat. Let me state up front that I am not a veterinarian. I am sharing information based on my personal experience that includes working very closely with my team of veterinarians -- my primary allopathic vet, a TCM vet, a homeopathic vet and a chiropractic vet (all are DVMs). First, you may want to consider (with your vet) the pros/cons of submitting a tissue sample for a biopsy/histopath. Especially if you've tried treatments for sarcoids that aren't working as expected. One of the major cons is that the irritation caused by collecting the tissue may trigger the growth to increase in size. However, if you are considering another surgical removal of the growth, that would be an ideal time. In one case, the first histopath report that came back to us stated that the growth was nothing more than proud flesh. My vet thought this was complete hogwash and contacted a colleague of hers in Oklahoma, Dr. Rezabek DVM (a specialist in this area), for a second opinion. In this case, we had assumed the growth was a sarcoid, but Dr. Rezabek's histopath report indicated it was actually a soft tissue sarcoma (that didn't present in the usual manner, hence the initial misdiagnosis). This distinction became important in the way we eventually resolved the situation. With regards to homeopathy – we did not find homeopathic Thuja to be effective in this case. After appropriate timing, we also tried other appropriate remedies to no noticeable affect. With regards to acupuncture – I would recommend NOT to do local acupuncture (either in the growth itself or in the classic " surround the dragon " manner) because any irritation of the growth often triggers an increase in growth. (This may seem like an obvious point to make, however not all DVMs who do acupuncture are thoroughly versed in CM theory.) This goes for any bumps or scrapes to the growth as a result of horse-play or training. In my horse w/ the soft tissue sarcoma (which was located just above the coronet band) as the growth got very large (about 1.5x the size of a golf ball) it was especially prone to being knocked on cavelletti poles and the like resulting in bleeding and irritation and more growth. Yu Nan Bai Yao was effective in stopping the bleeding, although my horse found it to be slightly irritating and wasn't entirely happy about the application – so use with caution on horses that tend to strike out. With regards to Chinese herbs – we did not find this to be effective (and we gave it a good year+). Despite our efforts to transform phlegm, soften hardness, dissipate nodules etc., there was no improvement in the condition. As we know, phlegm nodules are difficult to treat – this outward/exterior manifestation of stubborn substantial phlegm was very resistant to treatment. With regards to topical Chinese herbal treatment – During one vet visit, we decided to try a topical application of phlegm resolving herbs (mu li, xia ku cao, xuan Shen, bai jie zi, etc) and within 10 minutes of the application, my horse experienced a (singular) episode of severe, acute ataxia and disorientation to the point that we thought she was going to fall down. As soon as she safely could, my vet began to needle points to extinguish wind and in about 7 minutes, the episode was over. Unfortunately, my horse ended up effusing the tendon sheath in her left front lower limb as a result of her stumbling and scrambling to maintain balance. I am glad it happened in the presence of my vet as I had immediate support available. I'm not trying to say that the external herb application caused the ataxia, just reporting the facts as they happened. The ataxia could have been a completely unrelated (to the topical herbs) occurrence as my horse had, 1 week prior, gotten cast in her stall in which she thrashed about quite a bit before we got her free. My chiropractic vet, who came the day after the ataxic episode, theorized that the subluxations she felt in the cervical spine were enough to explain the ataxia (I should state here that she treated my horses regularly and so was very familiar with how they usually felt). I am still to this day puzzled by the timing of it all. After my horse recovered, I had her thoroughly checked out and in every way, including neurologically, my horse checked out fine. My allopathic vet suggested the topical application of a product called " Xxterra " (developed by Dr. Larson, DVM at CSU) which also contains the herb bloodroot (as was the product that Phil referred to). This product is also sometimes referred to as Indian Mud, however I can only speak to the preparation labeled as Xxterra. It worked for the sarcoid, however was not initially effective for the soft tissue sarcoma. In the end, what worked for the soft tissue sarcoma was a combination surgical excision and topical application. First, my vet surgically removed as much of the sarcoma as was safe. The growth had a huge blood supply, so I had a large amount of Yu Nan Bai Yao ready to pack onto the wound over which my vet placed a pressure bandage. The next day, I changed the bandage and began applying the Xxterra over the next few weeks. Because of the close proximity of the sarcoma to the coronet band, my vet could not fully excise the growth. The Xxterra seemed able to get at the remaining growth without risk of injury to the coronet band. However, it was trial/error before we actually got results with this product – we found certain application methods to be more effective than others. I can attest to the claim that this product does not harm normal skin in any way – which is in part why we had poor results initially with the soft tissue sarcoma. If someone wants more specifics, feel free to email me directly. I also documented the entire process w/ digital photos. If the Xxterra had not been effective, our next course of action would have been to use locally injected chemotherapy. Xxterra is only available to DVMs, so you would have to get it from your vet. Below is a URL to this product as a result of a google search (this is not an endorsement of the website itself, just simply a link to information): http://www.vetlineequine.com/xxterra.asp We have not had a recurrence of any of the growths that we treated with Xxterra. Again, this is just my personal experience and is not meant to act as veterinary advice one way or the other. Continue your research & consultations with your vets and work together to find a solution for your specific circumstances. The Cansema product referred to by Phil seems like a similar product to Xxterra with a few more herbs thrown in. However, I take personal issue with using animal-derived products (e.g., the emu oil) with herbivores. I know it's commonly done with nary a second thought, but it just seems wrong and unnatural in my opinion. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Hi All, Re treating equine sarcoids, here is another suggestion, from Joy Keller. See: http://www.vetlineequine.com/xxterra.asp and http://tinyurl.com/42s2a [Thanks, Joy. Your note, and the data on that URL are enlightening!] Also, one writer claimed that nail-varnigh remover worked! Post subject: Nail varnish remover: During research for my thesis a local vet advised of a 5yr old horse with several mixed sarcoids that had been treated with nail varnish remover successfully. Hasten to add it was the owner that took this course of treatment, not the vet. AnnMarie. See: http://tinyurl.com/5lr6j Some links with info on sarcoids & treatment. Sarcoid E-Group equine_sarcoid/?yguid=10654258 Compound X: Integration of Developmental Toxicity Findings to Estimate Potential for Human Risk http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/99n2079/ts00006/ Contemporary History of the Escharotic Black Salve http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/black_salve.html http://herbsforhealth.about.com http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/balofgilblac.html http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=254 & i=714 Best regards, Phil XXTERRA™ [sOLD ONLY TO VETERINARIANS] is an herbal paste for sarcoids. Made from zinc salt, water and Bloodroot (Sanguineria canadensis) XXTERRA™ is the most effective treatment sarcoids available today. Dr. Ken Larson developed the product at the CSU College of Veterinary Medicine in 1970, continuous use and refinement have produced XXTERRA™, as we know it today. Sarcoids, which are the benign skin tumors of horses, are refractory to most forms of treatments. XXTERRA™ effects sarcoids by altering the tumor antigens in-vivo. This stimulates the immune system to recognize them as foreign and mount a response quite similar to the host vs. graft rejection. The tumor bed becomes lined with sensitized WBC's and becomes inflamed causing it to slough off. It can become quite sore to the touch, however this sensitivity lasts only a few days. XXTERRA™ has been effective in >95% of the sarcoids treated. Equine warts, squamous cell carcinoma, proud flesh, melanoma and fibromas are other conditions it has been used on with various levels of success. It remains to be seen how many other neoplasms may be treated with XXTERRA™ as various members of the AAEP are doing continued experimentation. Total failures have been observed in rare instances and have been attributed to a non-functional immune system. XXTERRA™ appears safe on normal skin. It has been used in the oral cavity of humans and dogs with no ill effects. Application to shaved legs of 10 horses under a wrap for 7 days produced only transient erythema on 2 horses. Continued contact to the hands and arms of Dr. Larson for over 30 years have produced nothing but transient dry skin. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joy wrote (to Chinese Herbal Medicine List): Jutta, I have had to deal w/ equine sarcoids -- they are not an easy condition to treat. Let me state up front that I am not a veterinarian. I am sharing information based on my personal experience that includes working very closely with my team of veterinarians -- my primary allopathic vet, a TCM vet, a homeopathic vet and a chiropractic vet (all are DVMs). First, you may want to consider (with your vet) the pros/cons of submitting a tissue sample for a biopsy/histopath. Especially if you've tried treatments for sarcoids that aren't working as expected. One of the major cons is that the irritation caused by collecting the tissue may trigger the growth to increase in size. However, if you are considering another surgical removal of the growth, that would be an ideal time. In one case, the first histopath report that came back to us stated that the growth was nothing more than proud flesh. My vet thought this was complete hogwash and contacted a colleague of hers in Oklahoma, Dr. Rezabek DVM (a specialist in this area), for a second opinion. In this case, we had assumed the growth was a sarcoid, but Dr. Rezabek's histopath report indicated it was actually a soft tissue sarcoma (that didn't present in the usual manner, hence the initial misdiagnosis). This distinction became important in the way we eventually resolved the situation. With regards to homeopathy – we did not find homeopathic Thuja to be effective in this case. After appropriate timing, we also tried other appropriate remedies to no noticeable affect. With regards to acupuncture – I would recommend NOT to do local acupuncture (either in the growth itself or in the classic " surround the dragon " manner) because any irritation of the growth often triggers an increase in growth. (This may seem like an obvious point to make, however not all DVMs who do acupuncture are thoroughly versed in CM theory.) This goes for any bumps or scrapes to the growth as a result of horse-play or training. In my horse w/ the soft tissue sarcoma (which was located just above the coronet band) as the growth got very large (about 1.5x the size of a golf ball) it was especially prone to being knocked on cavelletti poles and the like resulting in bleeding and irritation and more growth. Yu Nan Bai Yao was effective in stopping the bleeding, although my horse found it to be slightly irritating and wasn't entirely happy about the application – so use with caution on horses that tend to strike out. With regards to Chinese herbs – we did not find this to be effective (and we gave it a good year+). Despite our efforts to transform phlegm, soften hardness, dissipate nodules etc., there was no improvement in the condition. As we know, phlegm nodules are difficult to treat – this outward/exterior manifestation of stubborn substantial phlegm was very resistant to treatment. With regards to topical Chinese herbal treatment – During one vet visit, we decided to try a topical application of phlegm resolving herbs (mu li, xia ku cao, xuan Shen, bai jie zi, etc) and within 10 minutes of the application, my horse experienced a (singular) episode of severe, acute ataxia and disorientation to the point that we thought she was going to fall down. As soon as she safely could, my vet began to needle points to extinguish wind and in about 7 minutes, the episode was over. Unfortunately, my horse ended up effusing the tendon sheath in her left front lower limb as a result of her stumbling and scrambling to maintain balance. I am glad it happened in the presence of my vet as I had immediate support available. I'm not trying to say that the external herb application caused the ataxia, just reporting the facts as they happened. The ataxia could have been a completely unrelated (to the topical herbs) occurrence as my horse had, 1 week prior, gotten cast in her stall in which she thrashed about quite a bit before we got her free. My chiropractic vet, who came the day after the ataxic episode, theorized that the subluxations she felt in the cervical spine were enough to explain the ataxia (I should state here that she treated my horses regularly and so was very familiar with how they usually felt). I am still to this day puzzled by the timing of it all. After my horse recovered, I had her thoroughly checked out and in every way, including neurologically, my horse checked out fine. My allopathic vet suggested the topical application of a product called " Xxterra " (developed by Dr. Larson, DVM at CSU) which also contains the herb bloodroot (as was the product that Phil referred to). This product is also sometimes referred to as Indian Mud, however I can only speak to the preparation labeled as Xxterra. It worked for the sarcoid, however was not initially effective for the soft tissue sarcoma. In the end, what worked for the soft tissue sarcoma was a combination surgical excision and topical application. First, my vet surgically removed as much of the sarcoma as was safe. The growth had a huge blood supply, so I had a large amount of Yu Nan Bai Yao ready to pack onto the wound over which my vet placed a pressure bandage. The next day, I changed the bandage and began applying the Xxterra over the next few weeks. Because of the close proximity of the sarcoma to the coronet band, my vet could not fully excise the growth. The Xxterra seemed able to get at the remaining growth without risk of injury to the coronet band. However, it was trial/error before we actually got results with this product – we found certain application methods to be more effective than others. I can attest to the claim that this product does not harm normal skin in any way – which is in part why we had poor results initially with the soft tissue sarcoma. If someone wants more specifics, feel free to email me directly. I also documented the entire process w/ digital photos. If the Xxterra had not been effective, our next course of action would have been to use locally injected chemotherapy. Xxterra is only available to DVMs, so you would have to get it from your vet. Below is a URL to this product as a result of a google search (this is not an endorsement of the website itself, just simply a link to information): http://www.vetlineequine.com/xxterra.asp We have not had a recurrence of any of the growths that we treated with Xxterra. Again, this is just my personal experience and is not meant to act as veterinary advice one way or the other. Continue your research & consultations with your vets and work together to find a solution for your specific circumstances. The Cansema product referred to by Phil seems like a similar product to Xxterra with a few more herbs thrown in. However, I take personal issue with using animal-derived products (e.g., the emu oil) with herbivores. I know it's commonly done with nary a second thought, but it just seems wrong and unnatural in my opinion. Joy Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Hi Phil, We have what I have assumed is a sarcoid on the ribs of a 4 yr old. After direct scaring moxa, we are applying an over the counter wart stick and it seems to be resolving quite nicely. Don't know of course if it will come back... just thought to mention it. Direct moxa has strong immune stimulating properties. Best wishes [] Wednesday, 8 December 2004 4:40 AM vet-ie-list; PVA-L ; VBMA; juttabrassil Cc: Chinese Medicine ; joy-keller Re: Equine sarcoid: Acupuncture, Thuja or Sarcoid Nosode? Hi All, Re treating equine sarcoids, here is another suggestion, from Joy Keller. See: http://www.vetlineequine.com/xxterra.asp and http://tinyurl.com/42s2a [Thanks, Joy. Your note, and the data on that URL are enlightening!] Also, one writer claimed that nail-varnigh remover worked! Post subject: Nail varnish remover: During research for my thesis a local vet advised of a 5yr old horse with several mixed sarcoids that had been treated with nail varnish remover successfully. Hasten to add it was the owner that took this course of treatment, not the vet. AnnMarie. See: http://tinyurl.com/5lr6j Some links with info on sarcoids & treatment. Sarcoid E-Group equine_sarcoid/?yguid=10654258 Compound X: Integration of Developmental Toxicity Findings to Estimate Potential for Human Risk http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/99n2079/ts00006/ Contemporary History of the Escharotic Black Salve http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/black_salve.html http://herbsforhealth.about.com http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/balofgilblac.html http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=254 & i=714 Best regards, Phil XXTERRA™ [sOLD ONLY TO VETERINARIANS] is an herbal paste for sarcoids. Made from zinc salt, water and Bloodroot (Sanguineria canadensis) XXTERRA™ is the most effective treatment sarcoids available today. Dr. Ken Larson developed the product at the CSU College of Veterinary Medicine in 1970, continuous use and refinement have produced XXTERRA™, as we know it today. Sarcoids, which are the benign skin tumors of horses, are refractory to most forms of treatments. XXTERRA™ effects sarcoids by altering the tumor antigens in-vivo. This stimulates the immune system to recognize them as foreign and mount a response quite similar to the host vs. graft rejection. The tumor bed becomes lined with sensitized WBC's and becomes inflamed causing it to slough off. It can become quite sore to the touch, however this sensitivity lasts only a few days. XXTERRA™ has been effective in >95% of the sarcoids treated. Equine warts, squamous cell carcinoma, proud flesh, melanoma and fibromas are other conditions it has been used on with various levels of success. It remains to be seen how many other neoplasms may be treated with XXTERRA™ as various members of the AAEP are doing continued experimentation. Total failures have been observed in rare instances and have been attributed to a non-functional immune system. XXTERRA™ appears safe on normal skin. It has been used in the oral cavity of humans and dogs with no ill effects. Application to shaved legs of 10 horses under a wrap for 7 days produced only transient erythema on 2 horses. Continued contact to the hands and arms of Dr. Larson for over 30 years have produced nothing but transient dry skin. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joy wrote (to Chinese Herbal Medicine List): Jutta, I have had to deal w/ equine sarcoids -- they are not an easy condition to treat. Let me state up front that I am not a veterinarian. I am sharing information based on my personal experience that includes working very closely with my team of veterinarians -- my primary allopathic vet, a TCM vet, a homeopathic vet and a chiropractic vet (all are DVMs). First, you may want to consider (with your vet) the pros/cons of submitting a tissue sample for a biopsy/histopath. Especially if you've tried treatments for sarcoids that aren't working as expected. One of the major cons is that the irritation caused by collecting the tissue may trigger the growth to increase in size. However, if you are considering another surgical removal of the growth, that would be an ideal time. In one case, the first histopath report that came back to us stated that the growth was nothing more than proud flesh. My vet thought this was complete hogwash and contacted a colleague of hers in Oklahoma, Dr. Rezabek DVM (a specialist in this area), for a second opinion. In this case, we had assumed the growth was a sarcoid, but Dr. Rezabek's histopath report indicated it was actually a soft tissue sarcoma (that didn't present in the usual manner, hence the initial misdiagnosis). This distinction became important in the way we eventually resolved the situation. With regards to homeopathy – we did not find homeopathic Thuja to be effective in this case. After appropriate timing, we also tried other appropriate remedies to no noticeable affect. With regards to acupuncture – I would recommend NOT to do local acupuncture (either in the growth itself or in the classic " surround the dragon " manner) because any irritation of the growth often triggers an increase in growth. (This may seem like an obvious point to make, however not all DVMs who do acupuncture are thoroughly versed in CM theory.) This goes for any bumps or scrapes to the growth as a result of horse-play or training. In my horse w/ the soft tissue sarcoma (which was located just above the coronet band) as the growth got very large (about 1.5x the size of a golf ball) it was especially prone to being knocked on cavelletti poles and the like resulting in bleeding and irritation and more growth. Yu Nan Bai Yao was effective in stopping the bleeding, although my horse found it to be slightly irritating and wasn't entirely happy about the application – so use with caution on horses that tend to strike out. With regards to Chinese herbs – we did not find this to be effective (and we gave it a good year+). Despite our efforts to transform phlegm, soften hardness, dissipate nodules etc., there was no improvement in the condition. As we know, phlegm nodules are difficult to treat – this outward/exterior manifestation of stubborn substantial phlegm was very resistant to treatment. With regards to topical Chinese herbal treatment – During one vet visit, we decided to try a topical application of phlegm resolving herbs (mu li, xia ku cao, xuan Shen, bai jie zi, etc) and within 10 minutes of the application, my horse experienced a (singular) episode of severe, acute ataxia and disorientation to the point that we thought she was going to fall down. As soon as she safely could, my vet began to needle points to extinguish wind and in about 7 minutes, the episode was over. Unfortunately, my horse ended up effusing the tendon sheath in her left front lower limb as a result of her stumbling and scrambling to maintain balance. I am glad it happened in the presence of my vet as I had immediate support available. I'm not trying to say that the external herb application caused the ataxia, just reporting the facts as they happened. The ataxia could have been a completely unrelated (to the topical herbs) occurrence as my horse had, 1 week prior, gotten cast in her stall in which she thrashed about quite a bit before we got her free. My chiropractic vet, who came the day after the ataxic episode, theorized that the subluxations she felt in the cervical spine were enough to explain the ataxia (I should state here that she treated my horses regularly and so was very familiar with how they usually felt). I am still to this day puzzled by the timing of it all. After my horse recovered, I had her thoroughly checked out and in every way, including neurologically, my horse checked out fine. My allopathic vet suggested the topical application of a product called " Xxterra " (developed by Dr. Larson, DVM at CSU) which also contains the herb bloodroot (as was the product that Phil referred to). This product is also sometimes referred to as Indian Mud, however I can only speak to the preparation labeled as Xxterra. It worked for the sarcoid, however was not initially effective for the soft tissue sarcoma. In the end, what worked for the soft tissue sarcoma was a combination surgical excision and topical application. First, my vet surgically removed as much of the sarcoma as was safe. The growth had a huge blood supply, so I had a large amount of Yu Nan Bai Yao ready to pack onto the wound over which my vet placed a pressure bandage. The next day, I changed the bandage and began applying the Xxterra over the next few weeks. Because of the close proximity of the sarcoma to the coronet band, my vet could not fully excise the growth. The Xxterra seemed able to get at the remaining growth without risk of injury to the coronet band. However, it was trial/error before we actually got results with this product – we found certain application methods to be more effective than others. I can attest to the claim that this product does not harm normal skin in any way – which is in part why we had poor results initially with the soft tissue sarcoma. If someone wants more specifics, feel free to email me directly. I also documented the entire process w/ digital photos. If the Xxterra had not been effective, our next course of action would have been to use locally injected chemotherapy. Xxterra is only available to DVMs, so you would have to get it from your vet. Below is a URL to this product as a result of a google search (this is not an endorsement of the website itself, just simply a link to information): http://www.vetlineequine.com/xxterra.asp We have not had a recurrence of any of the growths that we treated with Xxterra. Again, this is just my personal experience and is not meant to act as veterinary advice one way or the other. Continue your research & consultations with your vets and work together to find a solution for your specific circumstances. The Cansema product referred to by Phil seems like a similar product to Xxterra with a few more herbs thrown in. However, I take personal issue with using animal-derived products (e.g., the emu oil) with herbivores. I know it's commonly done with nary a second thought, but it just seems wrong and unnatural in my opinion. Joy Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Hi Sharon, & All, > Hi Phil, We have what I have assumed is a sarcoid on the ribs of a > 4 yr old. After direct scaring moxa, we are applying an over the > counter wart stick and it seems to be resolving quite nicely. > Don't know of course if it will come back... just thought to > mention it. Direct moxa has strong immune stimulating properties. > Best wishes, Many thanks, Shar. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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