Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Hi Attilio I work in the UK and have no trouble getting patients who are prepared to pay for acupuncture. Most GPs don't actually have the time to practice acupuncture, so I don't think they are the threat you make them out to be. What are you actually doing to contribute towards educating the public and correctly regulating our industry? I note that you are not a member of the British Acupuncture Council. The BAcC do a lot of PR work and also represent us acupuncturists with the government to protect our title in the new regulatory structure. If you aren't a member then the rest of us are paying for all that work on your behalf. I do not want to work in a hospital - I have worked for 2 years as an acupuncturist in a Hospice and that was enough for me. I would be surprised if any reasonably good acupuncturist would want to work for the NHS, but I suppose it is a training ground for a newly qualified practitioner. Regards Susie Parkinson B.Sc(hons), B.A(hons),Lic.Ac. MBAcC www.susie.parkinson.net > Message: 9 > Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:57:27 -0000 > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > RE: Self-acupuncture > > Hi Anne, > > Thanks for your optimistic thoughts, but in the UK, we have a closed > healthcare system. People will pay more to get their hair done than look > after their health. They begrudge paying a penny for healthcare, therefore > they go to see their local MD and coz they are MDs they think their > acupuncture is great even though they've only studied it for 2 days!! > > We need to educate the public, correctly regulate our industry, excluding > acupuncture MDs and get into the hospitals or we're screwed. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Susie Susie: I work in the UK and have no trouble getting patients who are prepared to pay for acupuncture. Attilio: I never said I have trouble getting patients, that's not the issue. If you look at the wider implications of doctors and nurses practicing acupuncture in closed hospitals, then you may just notice that our field is being eroded under our feet. I'm not talking from a personal issue like you are, I'm looking at the wider, whole implications in the UK. Once doctors and nurses have a practical foundation under their belts, they'll start to conduct their own research into acupuncture's effects. I most probably won't be effective as their acupuncture skill and education is only a drop in the ocean and again acupuncture will be given a bad press. Susie: Most GPs don't actually have the time to practice acupuncture, so I don't think they are the threat you make them out to be. Attilio: I'm not talking about most GPs. Of course most GPs don't practice acupuncture. I'm talking about the ones that DO practice acupuncture. And yes, they are a threat to TCM if they keep on devaluing our field by providing a substandard quality of acupuncture to patients, which will give acupuncture a bad name. Susie: I note that you are not a member of the British Acupuncture Council. The BAcC do a lot of PR work and also represent us acupuncturists with the government to protect our title in the new regulatory structure. If you aren't a member then the rest of us are paying for all that work on your behalf. Attilio: What an absolute cheek. I find your comments not only childish but rude. It's of no concern to you what association I belong to. In actual fact, I'm a little cheesed off having to undergo the BAC interview when I've just graduated from the best TCM course in the UK, which for some strange reason isn't accredited with the BAC, hence I haven't joined as yet. But I will join the BAC in time, probably next year. I also do a lot of work myself by running this group, furthering discussion, education, seminars, etc and don't get paid a penny! Do I go around stating I'm working for everyone else for free? No! Susie: I do not want to work in a hospital - I have worked for 2 years as an acupuncturist in a Hospice and that was enough for me. I would be surprised if any reasonably good acupuncturist would want to work for the NHS, but I suppose it is a training ground for a newly qualified practitioner. Attilio: Again Susie, you misread my comments. I don't want to work in the NHS to get practice, I've had plenty of that already. Its the PRINCIPLE and overall state of affairs for TCM in the UK that I am concerned for, not for myself. But yes, I would like to see a acupuncturist in every NHS hospital in the UK, why not? Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Susie Parkinson [susie] 29 November 2004 21:53 Chinese Medicine RE: Digest Number 770 > Message: 9 > Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:57:27 -0000 > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > RE: Self-acupuncture > > Hi Anne, > > Thanks for your optimistic thoughts, but in the UK, we have a closed > healthcare system. People will pay more to get their hair done than look > after their health. They begrudge paying a penny for healthcare, therefore > they go to see their local MD and coz they are MDs they think their > acupuncture is great even though they've only studied it for 2 days!! > > We need to educate the public, correctly regulate our industry, excluding > acupuncture MDs and get into the hospitals or we're screwed. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Just a note Attilio. I am a new member of this group and already I appreciate the time time you are taking on this website. I do think we should all exercise more kindness toward one another just as we would give to our patients. I have seen more than one rude remark and I find it totally unnecessary. This should be a supportive group and again treat each other with the respect we are hopefully giving our patients. Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Susie > > Susie: I work in the UK and have no trouble getting patients who are > prepared to > pay for acupuncture. > > Attilio: I never said I have trouble getting patients, that's not the > issue. > If you look at the wider implications of doctors and nurses practicing > acupuncture in closed hospitals, then you may just notice that our > field is > being eroded under our feet. I'm not talking from a personal issue > like you > are, I'm looking at the wider, whole implications in the UK. Once doctors > and nurses have a practical foundation under their belts, they'll start to > conduct their own research into acupuncture's effects. I most probably > won't > be effective as their acupuncture skill and education is only a drop > in the > ocean and again acupuncture will be given a bad press. > > Susie: Most GPs don't actually have the time to practice > acupuncture, so I don't think they are the threat you make them out to be. > > Attilio: I'm not talking about most GPs. Of course most GPs don't practice > acupuncture. I'm talking about the ones that DO practice acupuncture. And > yes, they are a threat to TCM if they keep on devaluing our field by > providing a substandard quality of acupuncture to patients, which will > give > acupuncture a bad name. > > Susie: I note that you are not a member of the > British Acupuncture Council. The BAcC do a lot of PR work and also > represent us acupuncturists with the government to protect our title > in the > new regulatory structure. If you aren't a member then the rest of us are > paying for all that work on your behalf. > > Attilio: What an absolute cheek. I find your comments not only > childish but > rude. It's of no concern to you what association I belong to. In actual > fact, I'm a little cheesed off having to undergo the BAC interview > when I've > just graduated from the best TCM course in the UK, which for some strange > reason isn't accredited with the BAC, hence I haven't joined as yet. But I > will join the BAC in time, probably next year. I also do a lot of work > myself by running this group, furthering discussion, education, seminars, > etc and don't get paid a penny! Do I go around stating I'm working for > everyone else for free? No! > > Susie: I do not want to work in a hospital - I have worked for 2 years > as an > acupuncturist in a Hospice and that was enough for me. I would be > surprised > if any reasonably good acupuncturist would want to work for the NHS, but I > suppose it is a training ground for a newly qualified practitioner. > > Attilio: Again Susie, you misread my comments. I don't want to work in the > NHS to get practice, I've had plenty of that already. Its the > PRINCIPLE and > overall state of affairs for TCM in the UK that I am concerned for, > not for > myself. But yes, I would like to see a acupuncturist in every NHS hospital > in the UK, why not? > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Hi Attilio, Susie, I have similar concerns about the weekend warriors (as in a weekend's " acupuncture " training). My concern is less with GPs (who often get bored with it and drop it due to time pressures), and more with physios in both the NHS and private practice. In the NHS, they already are full-time employed, have an inbuilt referral process from doctors, and can use whatever therapy they think fit - manipulation, traction, ultrasound, or dry-needling. Any demand for acupuncture is sucked up in this system, but the practitioners of it don't rely on it solely for a living, don't require the extensive training, and can always fall back on mainstream physio techniques if results are questioned. There is still a huge shortage of funds in both primary and acute NHS care. NHS PCTs and acute trusts have to be very bold to commit an annual allocation to a dedicated acupuncture service. They have to cite the evidence for efficacy of certain conditions. It's a huge amount of bureacracy to set up a contract with a practitioner outside the NHS, with similar restrictions on in-house employment. Not so for a physiotherapy dept in the local hospital or health centre - they can just bundle in acupuncture as one of a range of bodywork therapies they offer - at no extra cost to the purchasing authority. They are already in the system. This way, the NHS can be seen to be offering alt. health without actually using the services of someone trained professionally in it. Statutory regulation will do absolutely nothing about this. In this scenario, the idea of traditional acupuncturists being employed full time in the NHS isn't something we are likely to see. Like Susie, I've provided acupuncture in a hospice, and my experience was of the usual NHS closed-shop suspicion of anything outside the norm. Getting co-operation and facilitation is exhausting and frustrating. There's a well documented case of a quite visionary acupuncturist managing to get a contract to provide acupuncture within a rheumatology dept in the Homerton Hospital (big London Hospital). In terms of both patient satisfaction and clinical outcome the service was exemplary. When it came round to renewing the contract, the hospital decided that it was too big a budget line (!!) for something still unproved. Before she left, one of the senior doctors in the department asked the acupuncturist if she could quickly show another member of staff what to do, so they could carry on providing a bit of acupuncture after she'd gone! So when British acupuncturists talk about their desire to work in the NHS, I suspect they have no idea what they're talking about. What it usually means is being told by some pompous doctor or officious nurse that acupuncture only works for nausea and limited pain relief, that most of it is placebo, there's no such thing as qi, that they will only allow treatment where the consultant thinks that acupuncture is likely to get results, that you won't be allowed to treat any clinical condition other than the one they've been referred for, that you only have 15 minutes per patient (including any undressing time), that you won't be allowed to treat a single patient more than 5 times, and that if you are deemed successful, they'll be sending the in-house physio on a weekend course to take over from you next year. What professional of any sort would be prepared to submit to such treatment? Godfrey Bartlett Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: But yes, I would like to see a acupuncturist in every NHS hospital > in the UK, why not? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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