new acupuncture codes

[Guest guest]

Alon

 

SInce it has not been publicly noticed....what are the RVUs for those new

codes if you know them? Then a simple calculation will tell us IF we will get

'paid well'.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 11/29/04 9:08:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

>>>We got a good relative value, that means that relatively to other

procedures that take 15 min we will get paid well

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for writing back on this topic. It was very heartening

to know that there are some like minded people in the professional

community.

 

After a lot of thinking, I will use the new codes and charge exactly

what I have been charging for a visit. Who is to say 15 minutes of

my time is not worth that much. I will continue to spend between 40

minutes and an hour with patients.

 

I think the new system will be fine if all we do in effect is change

the number we put on the billing form.

 

As a practical matter I only have one or two patients who get

insurance re-imbursements. I do not accept direct payments from

insurance companies.

 

Zinnia

[Guest guest]

< wrote:

> Sad that so much or the reaction seen here appears to precede careful data

gathering and analysis of inputs from various authoritative sources as to

how it all works and what it means.<

 

 

AMEN!

 

 

 

 

The all-new My – Get yours free!

 

 

[Guest guest]

No just an observer reading the lies put out by both sides in various journals

and letters to practitioners.

I belong to none of the factions but helped found two of them. I am just

generaly tired of the BS by all of the sides and really tired of your hidden

agendas that you pretend are objective statements!

Doc

 

acudoc11 wrote:

These kind of statements are nothing more than flaming from an obiosu

propagandist and not worth wasting the time nor the energy in responding.

 

In a message dated 11/28/2004 1:28:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Doc writes:

 

AOMNC and AAOM are at war with each other and have both IMO stuped to rather

less than ethical tactics,

 

My understanding is that the AOMNC is a tiny group with very little

membership or clout. I know lots of folks in both the Alliance (which i belong

to) and

the AAOM but have never even met a single AOMNC in the entire USA.

Would you please disclose in your letters on this issue your involvment with

this group and not hide your agenda on this issue.

 

Doc

[Guest guest]

I asked Richard for side by side comparisons to support his statements he

replied;

 

acudoc11 wrote:

 

>>Doc

 

If you REALLY want to know the truth then spend the .02 of your time and look

with your own eyes. It has been spoken about for years and while many like to

play the 'prove it to me' game......they will be left in the dust when it

settles.

 

As for a workable (not perfect) set of codes built for ALL of CAM (with a

special and sizeable section for Ap/OM) go and research for yourself the ABC

Codes and find out what you are missing.

 

Like Alternative Link who designed this innovative 4,000 CAM coding system

and fought the system including the AMA/CPT and now which sits at the edge of a

new era in the US about ready for US Government approval.....AOMNC with its

supposed 'tiny' membership has been at the forefront in moving forward a US

Federal Acupuncture Bill AND also sits at the forefront of 'being doers' by

having

filed the first Anti-trust Racketeering lawsuit against ten of the largest

HMOs in the US. <<

 

 

>>Do you really expect people who have known me for years to buy into a late

comer calling what we have accomplished as..... wishful thinking? Lets stop

trying to pull everyone's leg by these ludicrous statements. <<

 

Gee I guess 20 plus years in the AAOM Alliance etc and 51 plus years in TCM

makes me a late comer.

Especially all of the work done on this issue before you were an Acupuncturist.

Again if you think that in some way boycotting or ignoring CPT codes will make

them go away then you are engaged in wishful thinking

 

>>You are a big boy...right? No one especially me...needs to hold your hand

through the logical exercise of comparative analysis.<,

 

Got it you have nothing and this flame is your only response. After reading the

articles you wrote last year I am not at all surprised.

 

Doc

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/28/2004 1:53:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Doc writes:

 

Richard,

My .02

 

We are presented with a reality that -wishful thinking aside -says that we

need to fit into their system (the one that has been in place for insurance

billing since before the first Ac license was issued in the US) and not expect

them to change to suit us.

I am not a fan of the AAOM but saying that they have sold out is simply not

true -in this case.

 

This is called a foot in the door and those of us who say *I won't play

until they invite me all the way in as an equal partner* are going to grow old

waiting outside.

I will use this imperfect foot in the door to help my patients who otherwise

could not afford health care.

 

Is your argument about which set of numbers we use?

Great, present exactly what your codes mean and all of the details as the

AAOM folks just did. No tirades, no propaganda just present the cold hard facts

and let us compare them.

Set the numbers side by side and let us look at the pros and cons.

 

Insurance codes by their very nature reduce us all to a set of cold unfeeling

numbers. It is the same system that has created a thousand other inequities

of which this is but a minor example. 3000 children die every day from hunger

while the US and UK and EU each throw away enough food daily to feed them

extravagantly. Millions in the US have no access to health care and an almost

equal per capita rate exists in Europe. If that and the system that create such

thinking are what you are upset about then lets get together and bring the

change.

 

Doc

 

 

 

 

 

 

Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The big question, of course, is what monetary values get assigned to 'work

value'. This will impact the patients more than myself, as I do not

contract with insurance plans, but bill on behalf of the patients for

out-ot-network services. If one tries to build a practice largely as member

of networks, the monetary valuation issue will be more critical.

>>>We got a good relative value, that means that relatively to other procedures

that take 15 min we will get paid well

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon

 

David posted them and if I read them correctly they are 60 and 55.

 

The average 'cost factor' via zip code seems to be in the neighborhood of $6

per unit. Of course some zip codes are as high as $7 and some lower. This

doesn;t seem 'quite good' as it would result in approximately a $36 payment for

acupuncture for the so-called face to face treatment and if one could

substantiate 'sitting face to face' with the patient for a consecutive time of

say 1/2

hour (solid) then they would have the opportunity to bill another $33. Lets

then not forget that the healthcare carrier would reimburse at best between

70-80%.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 11/30/2004 4:18:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

 

 

i have not seen the RVUs but the units seem quite good

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi David,

 

Thanks for that information.

 

Perhaps part of the reaction that people are having to this has to do

with the fact that the 15 minutes that we spend inserting needles is a

very small component of what we do. The assessment and analysis is a

much larger component, and they are paying us for three minutes to do

that.

 

But I do agree that we shouldn't be surprised to be treated the way

that systems treat people. That's the way it goes, and we need to

make the best of it just like everyone else does.

 

Do you know if this is going to have any impact on us being able to be

reimbursed by medicare and medicaid? As others have mentioned, I can

only imagine the headaches that will create, but it will also open

many, many doors.

 

Thanks for your thoughts,

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , acuman1@a... wrote:

> Here is the reprot provided by AAOM to its members, which may give a

more

> complete idea of what actually is hapening.

> David Molony

>

> David Wells, DC, LAc

>

> Greetings Colleagues!

>

> After almost two years of work, a coalition led by the American

Association

> of Oriental Medicine that included the American Chiropractic

Association, the

> American Association of Medical Acupuncturists, and the AOMAlliance,

succeeded

> in updating the CPT codes for acupuncture. This was a long and

difficult

> process. Many thanks to Roger Brooks and Gene Bruno of the AAOM and

to the

> representatives of the other organizations who helped us obtain

these codes.

>

> The new codes are:

> 97180 Acupuncture, one or more needles, without electrical stimulation,

> initial 15 minutes of personal one-on-one contact with the patient.

> 97811 each additional 15 minutes of personal one-on-one contact with

the

> patient, with re-insertion(note) of needles.

> 97813 Acupuncture, one or more needles, with electrical stimulation,

initial

> 15 minutes of personal one-on-one contact with the patient.

> 97814 each additional 15 minutes of personal one-on-one contact with

the

> patient, with re-insertion of needles.

> (Please buy the 2004 CPT book to get a complete list of codes and

> descriptors).

>

> Note: The use of the term “re-insertion†does not mean that we

should

> violate sterile technique and re-insert the same needles. The term

reflects the

> intention of the CPT committee that the additional 15 minute

period(s) of

> acupuncture include location, marking and cleaning points,

hand-washing, insertion,

> manipulation, removal and disposal of needles. In other words, the

additional 15

> minute period(s) reflect the work value of performing acupuncture.

>

> There are two differences between the current codes and the new codes:

>

> 1. One difference is that the new codes allow for reporting and

> reimbursement of acupuncture or electroacupuncture in 15-minute

increments. We were

> previously limited to one increment of acupuncture (or

electroacupuncture)

> reimbursement per visit. Now, in more complex cases, we can bill for

additional time

> in 15-minute increments. (There is no limit as to the number of

15-minute

> increments in the CPT book however you must be able to document the

medical

> necessity of each service with your SOAP notes).

> 2. The other difference is that the procedures of the

acupuncture or

> electroacupuncture were previously not defined in terms of their

work value,

> therefore the insurance industry had no basis for deciding how much

to pay for our

> services. In defining the “relative unit valueâ€, we provide a

basis for

> insurance carriers to compare our work to that of other health

providers and pay us

> accordingly. By describing the “work†of acupuncture (including

the level of

> skill required, the difficulty and risks involved), and then

breaking that

> work into timed increments similar to physical therapy or other

timed codes, we

> can expect to rise with the tide when other timed services increase

in value.

> This way, we do not fight alone against the insurance companies.

>

> What does “15-minutes†mean?

> It is very important to note that “15 minutes†is defined as

“personal

> one-on-one contact with the patientâ€. This means that you are not

only in the room

> with the patient, you are actively performing a medically necessary

activity

> that is a component of acupuncture or electroacupuncture. The time

that the

> needles are retained is specifically excluded for reimbursement.

“Personal

> one-on-one contact with the patient†does not mean hanging out

with the patient and

> talking about their 5-element preferences or their love life for

that matter.

> We don’t get paid for counseling under these codes. We don’t get

paid for

> evaluation and management of the patient under these codes except

for the “usual

> preservice and postservice work associated with the acupuncture

servicesâ€.

> These codes are for performing the procedures of acupuncture or

> electroacupuncture, not for the initial history and exam or

subsequent re-examination (more on

> this later). You can think of this as the time your hands are doing

some

> component of the acupuncture service.

>

> “Personal one-on-one contact with the patient†is limited to;

selecting,

> locating, marking and cleaning the points, washing your hands,

inserting and

> manipulating the needles, removing and properly disposing the

needles. The only

> exception to this is in the case of a patient who must be continuously

> monitored. An example is a patient who is nauseated and may vomit at

any time. If you

> must be on hand to remove the needles during the course of

treatment, you may

> count that as face-to-face time. Another example would be a patient

who is

> getting distal acupuncture for an inflammatory joint condition like

sciatica (Yao

> Tong Xue) or bursitis of the shoulder (St. 38), and you are

directing the

> patient to move while the needles are in place to enhance and

evaluate the

> effectiveness of the treatment. Or, perhaps you are treating someone

with low blood

> pressure and you must monitor the pulse so that you can suddenly

remove the

> needles to avoid fainting.

>

> Evaluation and Management

> You are also being paid to provide the “usual preservice and

postservice work

> associated with the acupuncture services†that accompanies a

repeat visit.

> The usual preservice work means that you greet the patient, take an

interval

> history, i.e., “How have you been since your last visit?†and

re-examine any

> positive findings from your initial exam that you need to monitor to

adjust your

> treatment (such as rechecking tongue and pulse). At the end of the

acupuncture

> or electroacupuncture, you chart what you did and any instructions

you gave

> to the patient. This is the usual postservice work. In other words,

the level

> of effort that goes into performing the activities reflected in SOAP

notes is

> included in the work value of these codes. The preservice and

postservice times

> are expected to be about 3 minutes each.

>

> When the patient has suffered a significant new trauma or change in

symptoms,

> or if 4-6 weeks have passed and you feel you need to perform a

re-examination

> to monitor the effectiveness of treatment, you may (if your scope

allows)

> perform a re-examination and bill an Evaluation and Management code

(i.e., Office

> visit). It is not appropriate to bill an office visit with every

acupuncture

> treatment.

>

> How long should the treatment take?

> Based on our survey, we think that the average treatment will be two

units of

> time, with one or three units being less common. No one is

suggesting that

> you use a stopwatch and note the times in your patient chart, but if

you are

> treating 20 patients a day, it would be ridiculous to claim that

they all

> received an hour of your undivided attention.

>

> Please don’t change your clinical procedures to maximize your

reimbursement.

> Do what you normally do to achieve the best clinical result and

charge what

> you think your services are worth. Whatever you do, document your

care in your

> SOAP notes. In the case of a dispute, you must have good SOAP notes

to make

> your case that the time you spent was medically necessary). Medical

necessity is

> not documented simply by listing a lot of points. You must show that

the

> patient had subjective complaints and objective findings that

required treatment to

> the points you selected. The CPT supplement has examples of

treatments and

> how to code them. You can buy that from the AMA.

>

> Electroacupuncture and Acupuncture Together

> The CPT book doesn’t allow you to bill for a “mix and matchâ€

of acupuncture

> and electroacupuncture on the same visit. This is to prevent

acupuncturists

> from charging for inserting the needles (acupuncture) and then

attaching

> electrodes to those same needles (electroacupuncture). The insurance

industry does

> not want to pay twice for inserting the same needles. To prevent

that confusion,

> they simply set up the codes so that you will only be reimbursed for

billing

> either units of acupuncture or units of electroacupuncture, not

both. So what

> do you bill if you perform an initial 15 minutes of

electroacupuncture and a

> second 15 minutes of acupuncture without electrical stimulation? You

bill both

> as electroacupuncture. As inaccurate as it appears, the relative unit

> committee decided that this is the best way to handle the issue. The

differential in

> reimbursement for the additional period of acupuncture versus

> electroacupuncture is small enough to be the lesser of two evils in

the eyes of the relative

> unit committee.

>

> How much will I be paid?

> This question cannot be answered. Insurance companies will determine

what

> they think is fair. In the case of HMO’s, the payment is by

contract, so the new

> codes may not have much effect. Some carriers may decide that they

will only

> pay for one increment of service in a day. Some may decide not to

pay you at

> all. If your patients are as unhappy as you are about your

reimbursement, they

> may advocate on your behalf. You may decide not to accept insurance

> reimbursement from carriers who are too restrictive.

>

> What is the relative unit value of our services?

> The work value of a 15-minute acupuncture treatment is .60. This

compares

> with the work value of .21 for 15 minutes of ultrasound. This is an

excellent

> valuation for our services and represents a real triumph for the

profession.

> Because our codes are now timed, our work value will rise with the

tide as other

> professions fight to increase reimbursement for their services.

>

> Additional 15 minutes of acupuncture has a work value of .55.

> Electroacupuncture is valued at .65 and additional

electroacupuncture is valued at .60. The

> additional time codes do not include additional pre- and postservice

time. It

> is assumed that the additional periods of insertion do not require

additional

> pre- and postservice work.

>

> How much should I charge?

> Regardless of the new CPT codes or Relative Unit Values assigned to

these

> codes, you must decide what your services are worth. Neither the AMA

nor the

> insurance industry is setting your fees by assigning a work value to

your

> services. You set your fees based on your own business needs and

what the average

> cash-paying patient is willing to pay for your services. In other

words, it is the

> free market, not the insurance company that determines the value of

your

> services.

>

> David Wells, D.C., L.Ac.

> AAOM Insurance Committee

>

>

> AAOM

> PO Box 162340

> Sacramento, CA 95816

> 866-455-7999 Toll Free

> info@a... | www.aaom.org

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is the primary reason for not using CPT codes.

When the ABC Codes are adopted the RVUs are much better and ALL of the

procedures that happen in an LAc's office are acknowledged....NOT just

acupuncture

needles.

 

In a message dated 11/30/04 9:16:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

>>>Unfortunately this is what happens when you try to so-call main stream. I

have been arguing against this for years. Just wait until we get into the

Medicare system. Acupuncturist will get a lot less than this and it will create

a

new national standard for all other insurance and therefore even privet

practice

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Anything is a possibility but if we don't shoot for the end result we will

never get there.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 11/30/04 9:26:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

The problem with the ABC codes is that the code itself identifies the

practitioner's license and may lead to discrimination

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i have not seen the RVUs but the units seem quite good

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The problem with the ABC codes is that the code itself identifies the

practitioner's license and may lead to discrimination

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The average 'cost factor' via zip code seems to be in the neighborhood of $6

per unit. Of course some zip codes are as high as $7 and some lower. This

doesn;t seem 'quite good' as it would result in approximately a $36 payment for

acupuncture for the so-called face to face treatment and if one could

substantiate 'sitting face to face' with the patient for a consecutive time of

say 1/2

hour (solid) then they would have the opportunity to bill another $33. Lets

then not forget that the healthcare carrier would reimburse at best between

70-80%.

>>>Unfortunately this is what happens when you try to so-call main stream. I

have been arguing against this for years. Just wait until we get into the

Medicare system. Acupuncturist will get a lot less than this and it will create

a new national standard for all other insurance and therefore even privet

practice

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- acudoc11 wrote:

>>A David Wells quote....

Further Mr. Wells states, " Bear in mind that our

existing acupuncture and

electroacupuncture codes were due to expire at the end

of 2004. If we did not

succeed in getting those reinstated, we would have no

way to bill. If we

overreached, we may not have ended up with ANY code at

all. " <<

 

>AOMNC disagrees. We would have what we right now

have. The ABC Codes and if

the carriers continued to refuse to reimburse when

there were no other codes

they could have been easily sued.<

 

This is simply not true there are no grounds in the

vast majority of states to sue for this. That is the

opinion of the trial attorney I just called and asked.

 

As far as the ABC codes; since the companies that pay

me and my colleagues do not pay these we would have

had a loss of several thousand a month in our clinic

alone.

 

>That would have been the IDEAL position to be

in........thereby placing the

US Government (DHHS/CMS) into the public view

regarding it's unconstitutional

delegation to a private MD organization a matter of

national importance. The US

government CAN NOT constitutionally delegate such a

matter of national

importance to such an organization AND certainly not

in such a monoplistic way. If

you don;t know.....you should. It is a violation of

Civil Rights and continues

to be so and that issue is coming forward to be dealt

with.<

 

This sounds really nice BUT ;

This is a PRIVATE BUSNESS MATTER. It is an insurance

company set of codes. It is outside of the Gov'ts

control.

It is not a Civil Right. Civil Rights are specific

rights outlined in the US Cnstitution.

The attorney says and I quote *This is just irrational

bluster. Not aword of this has any legal basis. This

-------- has no idea what he is talking about.*

 

 

 

 

> the invasive and SURGICAL procedure of acupuncture?

Does the average chiropractor handle biohazard

materials and waste like syringes, bloodied cotton

balls, acupuncture needles?

Does the risk of chiropractic manipulations involve

puncturing vital organs with surgical instruments,

i.e., acupuncture needles?<

 

Greast now you wanmt to revive the major argument that

the MDs used to block what they call Lay

Acupuncturists and join the MDs in claiming

Acupuncture as a Surgical Proceedure. As one of the

people in the forfront of the struggle for lisenceure

I really take offence at your stance on this one.

This little bit of BS was exactly what cost yearts of

educational work to overcome so that we could become a

legal profession!

 

>Which practitioner experiences more stress when

performing their primary treatment modality?.... Which

patient is at a greater risk

of injury given the inherent nature of the respective

treatment modalities? <

 

Great so you are going on record that Acupuncture is

not as safe as Chiropractic.

 

>One could say that AAOM has taken the barganing

position with the enemy while

AOMNC is taking a hard stand and doesn't deal with

monopolistic enemies.

AOMNC sees..... that at the end of the road the AP/OM

profession in the US will

have its recognition, respect, inclusion and codes and

not because we

bargained...but because we took the hard stance and

would not allow the bullies to

continue their illegal and unconstitutional acts.<

 

Right , if we ignore the folks who own the ball, the

bat, the field, and who wrote the rule book we can

play with ourselves.

And the practitioners who depend on insurance

reimbusment can just go bankrupt and Richard and his

group will take care of you and your families and ....

 

Richard you just seem to make up facts as you go

along.

AND

FYI I believe that there are two organizations that

were involved in this fight for our ability to bill

Insurance companies

The AAOM and the Alliance

 

Doc

[Guest guest]

Mr. Doc.....as to this attorney giving you advice....he/she obviously knows

nothing about the law OR would have you/everyone believe such legal misguidance.

 

Mr. DOC says: " The attorney says and I quote *This is just irrational

bluster. Not aword of this has any legal basis. This-------- has no idea what he

is

talking about.* " And then we read: " This is simply not true there are no

grounds in the vast majority of states to sue for this. That is the opinion of

the

trial attorney I just called and asked. "

 

Richard says: Why don't you ASK your attorney about what happened in the 1994

landmark decision when the US Supreme Court ruled that Interstate commerce

violations are in FACT Civil Rights violations. Are you man enough to post the

apology and admit that neither you nor those advising you know what the heck

they are talking about?

 

Oh I see..a trial attorney. No wonder...an attorney who specializes in

dueling (building a clients bill) and not the finer points of Law especially NOT

Consitutional Law.

 

As to who owns the ball, field, bat and whatever.......all that can be said

is that that's the reason why the AP/OM profession in the US hasn't been able

to get its act together in over 30 years. More of the mini monopolies

desperately trying to keep the profession in technician status.

 

This will be my last post discussing these issues.

 

Seems that it is always the same play actors with the same stories. They can

TRY as they will to discourage and laugh which has never and will never effect

what I do. In the end we shall see what strategies prevail.

[Guest guest]

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

as goes Medicare GOES

the rest of the reimbursement marketplace'

>>>>That is very true and why i have been warning

against Medicare inclusion. If acup is going to become

part of medicare $15 acup treatments will become the

norm for all insurance's and soon after privet

practice.

 

 

This has not been my experience at all. I have found

only Kaiser to try and set their reimbursment by

Medicare standards. I will not take Kaiser

reimbursment. (they also have twice the paperwork.

All of the other insurance companies I do business

with on a daily basis set their rates by the RVU

based on non Medicare rates.

As an example:

Under the old CPT codes I was getting only .55 for an

acupuncture treatment(without Electricity) I was paid

68.50 and also billed for diagnostic time if

aplicable.

This works out to $75 under the new code RVU of .60.

No twists turns or nonsense.

If the RVU is .6 that is what I will get here in CO.

 

Doc

BTW I will not go anywhere near Medicare personally (i

just give my fixed income patients a huge discount)

but that is the stamp of legitimacy for our

profession.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

 

[Guest guest]

This is simply not true there are no grounds in the

vast majority of states to sue for this. That is the

opinion of the trial attorney I just called and asked.

>>>Just let them dream on

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You bring up good points about this. Rather than quibble about what, who

and if it is right why don't we list the issues, possible solutions and

potential outcomes for discussion. That would seem to do more to solve this

issue than continue with the bickering. There are many ways to describe

something, no one person can do it all. Let's work together. Thanks

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

>acudoc11

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: new acupuncture codes

>Sun, 5 Dec 2004 20:01:35 EST

>

>

>Mr. Doc.....as to this attorney giving you advice....he/she obviously knows

>nothing about the law OR would have you/everyone believe such legal

>misguidance.

>

>Mr. DOC says: " The attorney says and I quote *This is just irrational

>bluster. Not aword of this has any legal basis. This-------- has no idea

>what he is

>talking about.* " And then we read: " This is simply not true there are no

>grounds in the vast majority of states to sue for this. That is the

>opinion of the

>trial attorney I just called and asked. "

>

>Richard says: Why don't you ASK your attorney about what happened in the

>1994

>landmark decision when the US Supreme Court ruled that Interstate commerce

>violations are in FACT Civil Rights violations. Are you man enough to post

>the

>apology and admit that neither you nor those advising you know what the

>heck

>they are talking about?

>

>Oh I see..a trial attorney. No wonder...an attorney who specializes in

>dueling (building a clients bill) and not the finer points of Law

>especially NOT

>Consitutional Law.

>

>As to who owns the ball, field, bat and whatever.......all that can be said

>is that that's the reason why the AP/OM profession in the US hasn't been

>able

>to get its act together in over 30 years. More of the mini monopolies

>desperately trying to keep the profession in technician status.

>

>This will be my last post discussing these issues.

>

>Seems that it is always the same play actors with the same stories. They

>can

>TRY as they will to discourage and laugh which has never and will never

>effect

>what I do. In the end we shall see what strategies prevail.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kaiser to try and set their reimbursment by

Medicare standards.

>>>>>>Where are you? Here in northern CA Kaiser pays $50 per treatment and has

NO paperwork. The patient must have been preautorized and then all you need to

due is bill them. No report or anything else.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree Mike. This bickering is getting too much. Can we be more

constructive please?

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

Doctor of (Beijing, China)

BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM

07786198900

attiliodalberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

mike Bowser [naturaldoc1]

06 December 2004 16:32

Chinese Medicine

Re: new acupuncture codes

 

 

 

You bring up good points about this. Rather than quibble about what, who

and if it is right why don't we list the issues, possible solutions and

potential outcomes for discussion. That would seem to do more to solve this

 

issue than continue with the bickering. There are many ways to describe

something, no one person can do it all. Let's work together. Thanks

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

>acudoc11

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: new acupuncture codes

>Sun, 5 Dec 2004 20:01:35 EST

>

>

>Mr. Doc.....as to this attorney giving you advice....he/she obviously knows

>nothing about the law OR would have you/everyone believe such legal

>misguidance.

>

>Mr. DOC says: " The attorney says and I quote *This is just irrational

>bluster. Not aword of this has any legal basis. This-------- has no idea

>what he is

>talking about.* " And then we read: " This is simply not true there are no

>grounds in the vast majority of states to sue for this. That is the

>opinion of the

>trial attorney I just called and asked. "

>

>Richard says: Why don't you ASK your attorney about what happened in the

>1994

>landmark decision when the US Supreme Court ruled that Interstate commerce

>violations are in FACT Civil Rights violations. Are you man enough to post

>the

>apology and admit that neither you nor those advising you know what the

>heck

>they are talking about?

>

>Oh I see..a trial attorney. No wonder...an attorney who specializes in

>dueling (building a clients bill) and not the finer points of Law

>especially NOT

>Consitutional Law.

>

>As to who owns the ball, field, bat and whatever.......all that can be said

>is that that's the reason why the AP/OM profession in the US hasn't been

>able

>to get its act together in over 30 years. More of the mini monopolies

>desperately trying to keep the profession in technician status.

>

>This will be my last post discussing these issues.

>

>Seems that it is always the same play actors with the same stories. They

>can

>TRY as they will to discourage and laugh which has never and will never

>effect

>what I do. In the end we shall see what strategies prevail.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm in Colorado and $50 is still only 2/3 my usual

fee.

 

Doc

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

 

 

 

Kaiser to try and set their reimbursment by

Medicare standards.

>>>>>>Where are you? Here in northern CA Kaiser pays

$50 per treatment and has NO paperwork. The patient

must have been preautorized and then all you need to

due is bill them. No report or anything else.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm in Arkansas, specialize in point injection and my full price is about

$52.00.

 

$40-OV

$12-injection-vitamin or mineral,homeopathic,glandular. 3cc or less.

or

$20-sarapin injection 6cc or less

 

 

-

" Doc " <Doc

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, December 06, 2004 12:51 PM

Re: new acupuncture codes

 

 

>

> I'm in Colorado and $50 is still only 2/3 my usual

> fee.

>

> Doc

> --- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Kaiser to try and set their reimbursment by

> Medicare standards.

>>>>>>>Where are you? Here in northern CA Kaiser pays

> $50 per treatment and has NO paperwork. The patient

> must have been preautorized and then all you need to

> due is bill them. No report or anything else.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm in Colorado and $50 is still only 2/3 my usual

fee.

>>>HMOs never pay full fee

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

True Alon but with the CPT codes I've been getting full or 80% payment from

other than Kaiser.

Doc

 

alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

I'm in Colorado and $50 is still only 2/3 my usual

fee.

>>>HMOs never pay full fee

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

True Alon but with the CPT codes I've been getting full or 80% payment from

other than Kaiser.

>>>Not HMOs however. Correct?