Guest guest Posted November 27, 2004 Report Share Posted November 27, 2004 Acupunct Med. 2004 Sep;22(3):137-40. Related Articles, Links A survey of the use of self-acupuncture in pain clinics--a safe way to meet increasing demand? Orpen M, Harvey G, Millard J. Nottingham City Hospital, UK. Michele.Orpen An acupuncture service is well established within a pain clinic in Nottingham, England, and is now unable to meet the increasing demand for treatment despite recent expansion. Patients used to be offered training in self-acupuncture. This was withdrawn because of safety concerns, but is being considered again as a way of meeting the demand. There is little published research on the topic, so a survey of 42 English hospitals was conducted to establish whether acupuncture services are provided, and to discover whether others were offering training in self-acupuncture to patients. Thirty hospitals replied, 23 of which offer an acupuncture service. The average waiting time for the first acupuncture treatment was 18.5 weeks, and the average waiting time for follow up treatments was nine weeks. One hospital taught patients auricular self-acupuncture, another was planning to teach patients, and a third hospital had previously taught patients but stopped. Discussing these findings, concerns are raised about the safety of self-acupuncture, and issues about patient selection, training, information, supervision and supply of materials are reviewed. A debate on these issues would be valuable. PMID: 15551938 [PubMed - in process] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 This Matt, is a real real shame. In the UK, doctors and nurses you have been on very shallow educational TCM programs practice 'acupuncture' in the hospitals. General practitioners (GPs), refer patients to the hospitals with poor acupuncturists because its free. Going to a regular, well qualified TCM practitioner will cost of average £25-50. In certain instances us well trained acupuncturists offer our services free in drug or pain clinics. I think this is a good thing but also serves to put the TCM field in a bad spot in the UK. We are not recognised, have our field taught to others on pathetic weekend courses, have our field devalued and we end up offering our services for free. Teaching people to self acupuncture is another nail in our coffin, a cookbook, irrational approach to healthcare. I'm totally against it. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Matt Bauer [acu.guy] 27 November 2004 20:40 Chinese Medicine Self-acupuncture Acupunct Med. 2004 Sep;22(3):137-40. Related Articles, Links A survey of the use of self-acupuncture in pain clinics--a safe way to meet increasing demand? Orpen M, Harvey G, Millard J. Nottingham City Hospital, UK. Michele.Orpen An acupuncture service is well established within a pain clinic in Nottingham, England, and is now unable to meet the increasing demand for treatment despite recent expansion. Patients used to be offered training in self-acupuncture. This was withdrawn because of safety concerns, but is being considered again as a way of meeting the demand. There is little published research on the topic, so a survey of 42 English hospitals was conducted to establish whether acupuncture services are provided, and to discover whether others were offering training in self-acupuncture to patients. Thirty hospitals replied, 23 of which offer an acupuncture service. The average waiting time for the first acupuncture treatment was 18.5 weeks, and the average waiting time for follow up treatments was nine weeks. One hospital taught patients auricular self-acupuncture, another was planning to teach patients, and a third hospital had previously taught patients but stopped. Discussing these findings, concerns are raised about the safety of self-acupuncture, and issues about patient selection, training, information, supervision and supply of materials are reviewed. A debate on these issues would be valuable. PMID: 15551938 [PubMed - in process] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Attilio: When you are faced with an environment like you are in the UK, I would recommend stepping back from all that and really setting yourself apart from it all. If you are a well qualified TCM practitioner you should charge for your services accordingly and set yourself apart. Look at your services as if you have something that is priceless to offer your patients, offer them the opportunity to be with you. There are some books written and consulting firms out there that help practitioners market in any environment. One book I read early on was How to Build Your Ideal Private Practice by Lynn Grodski - she took the therapy model and basically showed how to break out of the managed care mess in the U.S. The other group I am familar with is David Singer Enterprises in the U.S. that takes the chiropractic model and shows how to build a very successful acupuncture business. Good Luck, Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > This Matt, is a real real shame. > > In the UK, doctors and nurses you have been on very shallow > educational TCM > programs practice 'acupuncture' in the hospitals. General practitioners > (GPs), refer patients to the hospitals with poor acupuncturists > because its > free. Going to a regular, well qualified TCM practitioner will cost of > average £25-50. In certain instances us well trained acupuncturists offer > our services free in drug or pain clinics. I think this is a good > thing but > also serves to put the TCM field in a bad spot in the UK. We are not > recognised, have our field taught to others on pathetic weekend courses, > have our field devalued and we end up offering our services for free. > Teaching people to self acupuncture is another nail in our coffin, a > cookbook, irrational approach to healthcare. I'm totally against it. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Matt Bauer [acu.guy] > 27 November 2004 20:40 > Chinese Medicine > Self-acupuncture > > > Acupunct Med. 2004 Sep;22(3):137-40. Related Articles, Links > > > A survey of the use of self-acupuncture in pain clinics--a safe way to > meet > increasing demand? > > Orpen M, Harvey G, Millard J. > > Nottingham City Hospital, UK. Michele.Orpen > > An acupuncture service is well established within a pain clinic in > Nottingham, England, and is now unable to meet the increasing demand for > treatment despite recent expansion. Patients used to be offered > training in > self-acupuncture. This was withdrawn because of safety concerns, but is > being considered again as a way of meeting the demand. There is little > published research on the topic, so a survey of 42 English hospitals was > conducted to establish whether acupuncture services are provided, and to > discover whether others were offering training in self-acupuncture to > patients. Thirty hospitals replied, 23 of which offer an acupuncture > service. The average waiting time for the first acupuncture treatment was > 18.5 weeks, and the average waiting time for follow up treatments was nine > weeks. One hospital taught patients auricular self-acupuncture, > another was > planning to teach patients, and a third hospital had previously taught > patients but stopped. Discussing these findings, concerns are raised about > the safety of self-acupuncture, and issues about patient selection, > training, information, supervision and supply of materials are reviewed. A > debate on these issues would be valuable. > > PMID: 15551938 [PubMed - in process] > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 I agree, but I would have said a bad shoe salesman... Dan Martin - " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus <Chinese Medicine > Monday, November 29, 2004 4:52 AM Re: Self-acupuncture > > > The other group I am familar with is David Singer Enterprises in the > U.S. that takes the chiropractic model and shows how to build a very > successful acupuncture business. > >>>>Yes if you want to become a shoe salesman > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Hi Anne, Thanks for your optimistic thoughts, but in the UK, we have a closed healthcare system. People will pay more to get their hair done than look after their health. They begrudge paying a penny for healthcare, therefore they go to see their local MD and coz they are MDs they think their acupuncture is great even though they've only studied it for 2 days!! We need to educate the public, correctly regulate our industry, excluding acupuncture MDs and get into the hospitals or we're screwed. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] 28 November 2004 18:36 Chinese Medicine Re: Self-acupuncture Attilio: When you are faced with an environment like you are in the UK, I would recommend stepping back from all that and really setting yourself apart from it all. If you are a well qualified TCM practitioner you should charge for your services accordingly and set yourself apart. Look at your services as if you have something that is priceless to offer your patients, offer them the opportunity to be with you. There are some books written and consulting firms out there that help practitioners market in any environment. One book I read early on was How to Build Your Ideal Private Practice by Lynn Grodski - she took the therapy model and basically showed how to break out of the managed care mess in the U.S. The other group I am familar with is David Singer Enterprises in the U.S. that takes the chiropractic model and shows how to build a very successful acupuncture business. Good Luck, Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > This Matt, is a real real shame. > > In the UK, doctors and nurses you have been on very shallow > educational TCM > programs practice 'acupuncture' in the hospitals. General practitioners > (GPs), refer patients to the hospitals with poor acupuncturists > because its > free. Going to a regular, well qualified TCM practitioner will cost of > average £25-50. In certain instances us well trained acupuncturists offer > our services free in drug or pain clinics. I think this is a good > thing but > also serves to put the TCM field in a bad spot in the UK. We are not > recognised, have our field taught to others on pathetic weekend courses, > have our field devalued and we end up offering our services for free. > Teaching people to self acupuncture is another nail in our coffin, a > cookbook, irrational approach to healthcare. I'm totally against it. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Matt Bauer [acu.guy] > 27 November 2004 20:40 > Chinese Medicine > Self-acupuncture > > > Acupunct Med. 2004 Sep;22(3):137-40. Related Articles, Links > > > A survey of the use of self-acupuncture in pain clinics--a safe way to > meet > increasing demand? > > Orpen M, Harvey G, Millard J. > > Nottingham City Hospital, UK. Michele.Orpen > > An acupuncture service is well established within a pain clinic in > Nottingham, England, and is now unable to meet the increasing demand for > treatment despite recent expansion. Patients used to be offered > training in > self-acupuncture. This was withdrawn because of safety concerns, but is > being considered again as a way of meeting the demand. There is little > published research on the topic, so a survey of 42 English hospitals was > conducted to establish whether acupuncture services are provided, and to > discover whether others were offering training in self-acupuncture to > patients. Thirty hospitals replied, 23 of which offer an acupuncture > service. The average waiting time for the first acupuncture treatment was > 18.5 weeks, and the average waiting time for follow up treatments was nine > weeks. One hospital taught patients auricular self-acupuncture, > another was > planning to teach patients, and a third hospital had previously taught > patients but stopped. Discussing these findings, concerns are raised about > the safety of self-acupuncture, and issues about patient selection, > training, information, supervision and supply of materials are reviewed. A > debate on these issues would be valuable. > > PMID: 15551938 [PubMed - in process] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Hi All, & Alon, >> I agree that self-acupuncture is undesirable for most subjects. Alon Marcus wrote: > Why? i have been teaching patients for years without a single > problem. Alon, I agree, so long as they do it only on themselves, and under direction and regular assessment by a qualified acupuncturist. My " fear " would be that if they get good results by self-needling, they may be tempted to do it on others also. IMO, THAT could be problematic. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Attilio wrote: " We need to educate the public, correctly regulate our industry, excluding acupuncture MDs and get into the hospitals or we're screwed. " IMO, the very best method to educate the public about CM as a whole and also to promote the profession of fully trained practitioners, is to do so within the context of Acupuncture/CM organizations. The issues raised in this thread, the ones about insurance billing codes, and others about making a living in this field, are all best addressed by having organizations that represent the profession of CM practitioners doing the public outreach/education on behalf of the profession. It makes no sense for thousands of acupuncturists/CM practitioners to try to educated the public on their own. This is true in every country, not just the US or UK. We practitioners should be banding together in our respective countries and making the goal of educating others about the merits of fully-trained practitioners THE PRIMARY goal of our organizations. This has not yet happened anywhere I am aware of. Here in the US, most of the focus of our organization has went to political lobbying (legislative issues) and, to a lesser degree, research. While these are all noble and useful goals, I am convinced that shifting priority now to public education will do more to address the problems that face this field than anything else. There is now enough practitioners and enough funds could be raised to take this on in a serious manner if the will to do so was there. Matt - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 28, 2004 3:57 PM RE: Self-acupuncture Hi Anne, Thanks for your optimistic thoughts, but in the UK, we have a closed healthcare system. People will pay more to get their hair done than look after their health. They begrudge paying a penny for healthcare, therefore they go to see their local MD and coz they are MDs they think their acupuncture is great even though they've only studied it for 2 days!! We need to educate the public, correctly regulate our industry, excluding acupuncture MDs and get into the hospitals or we're screwed. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] 28 November 2004 18:36 Chinese Medicine Re: Self-acupuncture Attilio: When you are faced with an environment like you are in the UK, I would recommend stepping back from all that and really setting yourself apart from it all. If you are a well qualified TCM practitioner you should charge for your services accordingly and set yourself apart. Look at your services as if you have something that is priceless to offer your patients, offer them the opportunity to be with you. There are some books written and consulting firms out there that help practitioners market in any environment. One book I read early on was How to Build Your Ideal Private Practice by Lynn Grodski - she took the therapy model and basically showed how to break out of the managed care mess in the U.S. The other group I am familar with is David Singer Enterprises in the U.S. that takes the chiropractic model and shows how to build a very successful acupuncture business. Good Luck, Anne Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > This Matt, is a real real shame. > > In the UK, doctors and nurses you have been on very shallow > educational TCM > programs practice 'acupuncture' in the hospitals. General practitioners > (GPs), refer patients to the hospitals with poor acupuncturists > because its > free. Going to a regular, well qualified TCM practitioner will cost of > average £25-50. In certain instances us well trained acupuncturists offer > our services free in drug or pain clinics. I think this is a good > thing but > also serves to put the TCM field in a bad spot in the UK. We are not > recognised, have our field taught to others on pathetic weekend courses, > have our field devalued and we end up offering our services for free. > Teaching people to self acupuncture is another nail in our coffin, a > cookbook, irrational approach to healthcare. I'm totally against it. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Matt Bauer [acu.guy] > 27 November 2004 20:40 > Chinese Medicine > Self-acupuncture > > > Acupunct Med. 2004 Sep;22(3):137-40. Related Articles, Links > > > A survey of the use of self-acupuncture in pain clinics--a safe way to > meet > increasing demand? > > Orpen M, Harvey G, Millard J. > > Nottingham City Hospital, UK. Michele.Orpen > > An acupuncture service is well established within a pain clinic in > Nottingham, England, and is now unable to meet the increasing demand for > treatment despite recent expansion. Patients used to be offered > training in > self-acupuncture. This was withdrawn because of safety concerns, but is > being considered again as a way of meeting the demand. There is little > published research on the topic, so a survey of 42 English hospitals was > conducted to establish whether acupuncture services are provided, and to > discover whether others were offering training in self-acupuncture to > patients. Thirty hospitals replied, 23 of which offer an acupuncture > service. The average waiting time for the first acupuncture treatment was > 18.5 weeks, and the average waiting time for follow up treatments was nine > weeks. One hospital taught patients auricular self-acupuncture, > another was > planning to teach patients, and a third hospital had previously taught > patients but stopped. Discussing these findings, concerns are raised about > the safety of self-acupuncture, and issues about patient selection, > training, information, supervision and supply of materials are reviewed. A > debate on these issues would be valuable. > > PMID: 15551938 [PubMed - in process] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Attillio: I first want to say, I deleted your message with the address book as I was trying to type my address, so please send it again. Yes, I am not familiar with the UK but I will tell you I know the patient you are talking about in the U.S. Getting hair done, nails done, plastic surgery, plasma TV's are all more important that healthcare that you have to pay for. There is one thing happening though that Western Medicine is not cracking very well. People are getting high blood pressure, cholesterol problems, heart attacks at young ages, smoking issues. These are all things that scare people and sometimes they need to be scared at bit. I have recently been speaking about stress in a different way - stress as the cause of dis-ease. I bring up all the exotic diseases that were unknown or got little attention - fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, chronic fatigue, then the osteroarthritis (big here with the drugs we use being shown to cause heart disease.) I emphasis how acupuncture can build immunity to help prevent these diseases. There is a lot I can say about reforming a patient's orientation to acupuncture. And I would be happy to email you privately with any specific questions you might have. In Columbia, Maryland, where I went to school there are hundreds of acupuncturists between 2 cities Columbia and Baltimore.(Most of the acupuncturists in state of Maryland are located here. It is very hard to just hang out a shingle and have a successful practice. Yet, I do know people that have been very successful in what one might call a " saturated market. " Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi Anne, > > Thanks for your optimistic thoughts, but in the UK, we have a closed > healthcare system. People will pay more to get their hair done than look > after their health. They begrudge paying a penny for healthcare, therefore > they go to see their local MD and coz they are MDs they think their > acupuncture is great even though they've only studied it for 2 days!! > > We need to educate the public, correctly regulate our industry, excluding > acupuncture MDs and get into the hospitals or we're screwed. > > Kind regards > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > 07786198900 > attiliodalberto > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > Anne Crowley [blazing.valley] > 28 November 2004 18:36 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Self-acupuncture > > > Attilio: > > When you are faced with an environment like you are in the UK, I would > recommend stepping back from all that and really setting yourself apart > from it all. If you are a well qualified TCM practitioner you should > charge for your services accordingly and set yourself apart. Look at > your services as if you have something that is priceless to offer your > patients, offer them the opportunity to be with you. > > There are some books written and consulting firms out there that help > practitioners market in any environment. > > One book I read early on was How to Build Your Ideal Private Practice by > Lynn Grodski - she took the therapy model and basically showed how to > break out of the managed care mess in the U.S. > > The other group I am familar with is David Singer Enterprises in the > U.S. that takes the chiropractic model and shows how to build a very > successful acupuncture business. > > Good Luck, > > Anne > > > Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > > This Matt, is a real real shame. > > > > In the UK, doctors and nurses you have been on very shallow > > educational TCM > > programs practice 'acupuncture' in the hospitals. General practitioners > > (GPs), refer patients to the hospitals with poor acupuncturists > > because its > > free. Going to a regular, well qualified TCM practitioner will cost of > > average £25-50. In certain instances us well trained acupuncturists > offer > > our services free in drug or pain clinics. I think this is a good > > thing but > > also serves to put the TCM field in a bad spot in the UK. We are not > > recognised, have our field taught to others on pathetic weekend courses, > > have our field devalued and we end up offering our services for free. > > Teaching people to self acupuncture is another nail in our coffin, a > > cookbook, irrational approach to healthcare. I'm totally against it. > > > > Kind regards > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM > > 07786198900 > > attiliodalberto > > <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com > > > > > > Matt Bauer [acu.guy] > > 27 November 2004 20:40 > > Chinese Medicine > > Self-acupuncture > > > > > > Acupunct Med. 2004 Sep;22(3):137-40. Related Articles, Links > > > > > > A survey of the use of self-acupuncture in pain clinics--a safe way to > > meet > > increasing demand? > > > > Orpen M, Harvey G, Millard J. > > > > Nottingham City Hospital, UK. Michele.Orpen > > > > An acupuncture service is well established within a pain clinic in > > Nottingham, England, and is now unable to meet the increasing demand for > > treatment despite recent expansion. Patients used to be offered > > training in > > self-acupuncture. This was withdrawn because of safety concerns, but is > > being considered again as a way of meeting the demand. There is little > > published research on the topic, so a survey of 42 English hospitals was > > conducted to establish whether acupuncture services are provided, and to > > discover whether others were offering training in self-acupuncture to > > patients. Thirty hospitals replied, 23 of which offer an acupuncture > > service. The average waiting time for the first acupuncture > treatment was > > 18.5 weeks, and the average waiting time for follow up treatments > was nine > > weeks. One hospital taught patients auricular self-acupuncture, > > another was > > planning to teach patients, and a third hospital had previously taught > > patients but stopped. Discussing these findings, concerns are raised > about > > the safety of self-acupuncture, and issues about patient selection, > > training, information, supervision and supply of materials are > reviewed. A > > debate on these issues would be valuable. > > > > PMID: 15551938 [PubMed - in process] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Bravo! Excellent point Matt! Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Attilio wrote: " We need to educate the public, correctly regulate our industry, excluding > acupuncture MDs and get into the hospitals or we're screwed. " > > IMO, the very best method to educate the public about CM as a whole and also to promote the profession of fully trained practitioners, is to do so within the context of Acupuncture/CM organizations. The issues raised in this thread, the ones about insurance billing codes, and others about making a living in this field, are all best addressed by having organizations that represent the profession of CM practitioners doing the public outreach/education on behalf of the profession. It makes no sense for thousands of acupuncturists/CM practitioners to try to educated the public on their own. This is true in every country, not just the US or UK. We practitioners should be banding together in our respective countries and making the goal of educating others about the merits of fully-trained practitioners THE PRIMARY goal of our organizations. This has not yet happened anywhere I am aware of. Here in the US, most of the focus of our organization has went to political lobbying (legislative issues) and, to a lesser degree, research. While these are all noble and useful goals, I am convinced that shifting priority now to public education will do more to address the problems that face this field than anything else. There is now enough practitioners and enough funds could be raised to take this on in a serious manner if the will to do so was there. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 The other group I am familar with is David Singer Enterprises in the U.S. that takes the chiropractic model and shows how to build a very successful acupuncture business. >>>Yes if you want to become a shoe salesman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Alon, I agree, so long as they do it only on themselves, and under direction and regular assessment by a qualified acupuncturist. My " fear " would be that if they get good results by self-needling, they may be tempted to do it on others also. >>>We cant control everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.