Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi all, I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? Is it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this tricky subject? Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 In our class we were taught that " evil " qi is actually the perniculous influences that are able to bring in pathogens to assault the body........ie the influenza virus would be evil qi brought in via the wind.Wind being the strongest of all perniculous influences........what is evil then was the virus that harmed the body............no one has ever nor have i ever read in any texts the definition of evil qi having anything to do with imoral acts.......................sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA > " " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > What is evil Qi? >Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:08:42 -0000 > > >Hi all, > >I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. >During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is >related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? Is >it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this >tricky subject? > >Attilio > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I think that the conceptualization of qi as evil that is related to immorality lends itself to being a part of a continuum which practitioners of today maybe oversimplifying. Remember that we are not looking at the full historical context of what this meant nor are we seeing the full tendency or pattern of behavior upon which this premise is presented. In todays world, large amounts of research have been conducted that show, for example, that food can determine how you feel and how you behave. Yes, this is phenomenal yet most people and that includes practitioners do not seem to understand this. This leaves us as a divided group with some having a deeper understanding and others just looking for more materialistic explanations. Evil qi is a tough one to grasp. Is it a physical substance or is it figment of our imagination? > " " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > What is evil Qi? >Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:08:42 -0000 > > >Hi all, > >I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. >During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is >related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? Is >it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this >tricky subject? > >Attilio > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi All, & Attilio, Attilio wrote: > I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. > During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is > related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? > Is it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this > tricky subject? Do we really want to follow this thread? This is a tricky subject indeed, because it impinges on personal convictions or beliefs on the true meanings / values in life and death for them It impinges on their/our affiliation to, different religious beliefs / cultures. It also impinges on personal experiences that the experiencer holds as reality for him/her, but his/her brothers/sisters, and best friends, reject as reality for them. This List has members who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, HIndu, etc. Even WITHIN these groupings, I suspect that we come in all shapes and sizes, and with convictions that range from far-left to far-right. For " believers in spirit " , the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, and personal sin that needs atonement / forgiveness usually has meaning. Religious belief is classed as irrational, nonsensical, superstitious bunkum by most who hold no such beliefs. I suspect that many on this list do NOT believe in Spirit, G-d and Devil, Heaven-Hell, the concept of Sin and Karma, External Attack by Spirits / Demonic Possession, etc. Unfortunately, many people today have no concept of personal sin. For them, ANYTHING goes. The only Commandment is " Don't get caught " , especially in acts classed by their State as criminal or socially unacceptable. Anything goes, whatever takes their fancy at the time. Some examples that many of you will recognise in people that you know: Perjure myself, or bribe a Cop / Court Clerk, to escape a Court Conviction? No problem! [it is almost the NORM today in Ireland!] F**k a duck if there is nothing better available? No problem! Watch pornography for sexual gratification or other " Walter-Mitty- type " fantasy without a thought for the devastating effects on the " porn stars " (I call them the unfortunates), who are exploited and maimed for life spiritually, mentally, or physically (sometimes even killed on camera) as a result? No problem! [iMO, porn-addicts often are unaware of the devastating effects that their addiction has on their OWN spiritual, mental and physical well- being. Most addicts abuse themselves ONLY, at least initially. I believe that most serious addictions (especially porn-addiction, because it expolits / abuses the Spirits of OTHERS) allows " Dark Spirits " (human or disembodied) to INVADE or occupy the addict's " Spirit- Space " . Possession (Invasion/Occupation by Evil Spirit/Qi) has powerful effects; it evokes self-destructive behaviour that may manifest in serious addictions, psychiatric crises, severe physical malaise and, even, suicide. Other colleagues disagree, or add that External Spirit Attack of a person is easiest if the person PREVIOUSLY has weak self- esteem or is prone to self-destructive behaviour. IMO, as with Invasion by the Six Evils of TCM (Heat, Cold, etc) BOTH scenarios are possible. A very powerful Xie (=TCM " Evil " ) can overcome Weiqi, even normal Weiqi. But Xie Invasion to the deepest parts of the body/ind/spirit is easiest if that INVOKES attack by being INHERENTLY weak, or CONCOMITANTLY weak as a result of other factors, such as self-loathing. If such people come for treatment of an alleged PHYSICAL or mental problem, as part of the most effective long-term treatment outcomes, the therapist MUST (IMO) tackle the SPIRITUAL aspects (or refer them to an expert in the area). But I digress ... Read crappy papers / magazines that salivate of people's darker sides and serve only to leave a sense of despair, hopelessness and self-loathing? No problem! Take someone's Qi/energy without permission? No problem! IMO, Vampirism of Spirit or Qi (stealing someone's Qi/Spiritual power) IS a reality, just as is White Magic (Qi/Spiritual SENDING is real. I suspect that I (and some of YOU) know accomplished people in BOTH of those fields of expertise. Vampires, however, are cowards; they work by stealth and deception. They are relatively easily recognised (by anyone half-sensitive). Once recognised, they withdraw to prey on people who cannot recognise their uinderhandedness. For the " I want it ... I take it " , or the " anything goes " brigades, No problem = no sin = no need to change their attitudes / hearts / behaviour. And, especially, no sin = no need for atonement, and no bad Karma until that atonement is accepted by G-d. It follows that the concept of Evil Qi as an attack / invasion / vampirism by disembodied intelligences, or of the reality of the Evil Eye (a curse laid by another human or family of humans on a perceived enemy or opponent) seems " off-the-wall " to them, and may be a Taboo Topic for some other people. During my (Roman Catholic) primary education (1946-1954), the catechism definition of a Curse was " calling on G-D to inflict Evil on any person, place or thing " . At that time, discussion of other very real aspects of a Curse were omitted. Orthodox Catholicism shies away from educating its adherents in magical practices. Therefore, my definition of a Curse is much broader than that taught to me in my childhood. A Curse (Malediction, Evil-wishing) is the opposite of Blessing (Benediction; Good-wishing). Curses are INVOKED, " called in " , willed, visualised, " seen to be realised " . Powerful Curses use powerful Invocations, often (but not necessarily always) involving ritual. My deficition now includes calling on ANY supernatural Power(s) to harm any person, place or thing. I also include HUMAN sheer evil intent. Example: An evil but psychically powerful person, like a Black Magician/Shaman, can cold-blooded invoke/will a Curse, simply by HUMAN evil intention. See: http://tinyurl.com/4sn78 For Catholics, cursing is (or at least used to be) classed as a Mortal Sin (the most most serious class). Mortal in that context means that it kills one's Spirit and cuts it off from G-d). Mortal Sins required confesion, sincere contrition, lifting of the curse, and atonement. Today, even amongst practising Catholics, Confession is on the way out, the concept of Mortal Sin is becoming a social and intellectual no-no, and Atonement is becoming the payment of damages to the victim if the perpetrator is caught out and convicted in Court in a social or criminal damages case. Oy-veh, everything is changing fast, even the " old certainties " . But, like the Cycles in Nature, the realities of life and death, some things do not change. One unchangeable fact (for me anyway) is that Good and Evil (G-d and Devil) exist. Another is that Spirits (good, so-so, and evil) exist. It also follows that BELIEVERS (even KNOWERS) may not want to discuss their beliefs / experiences of Spirit (both good and evil) lest they be labelled as head-bangers by the others. Personally, I have no doubt about the reality of disembodied Spirit/Thought/Qi forms (call them Angels, Demons, Spirits, Sprites, whatever you wish). Like any form of thought or Qi, they can be classed ad Good/Helpful, or Evil/Unhelpful. However, such discussions usually lead nowhere. They have occurred on other Lists to which I , but they can become divisive because they impact on religious belief as well as personal / family experiences. Is there any point in discussing colour with a colour-blind person, or writing about the beauty and texture of sound and muscial harmony (as in the music of Beethoven or Sibelius) to a deaf person? I do not think so, unless THEY indicate that THEY want to understand why others see beauty or other human value in it. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi, I like to look at the action and thought patterns of the person lecturing. His/her past record. And examine my own views. wrote: > I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. > During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is > related to immoral acts or sin. Why should qi be evil? I tell people that there is no evil in the wilderness. Natural systems lack 'evil'. It's a human construct. > I wondered then what is evil Qi? Is it really an immoral sinful act? In which spiritual system? What is immoral? Recent work indicates that we have innate views on most 'immoral' things. We use written references to paint 'right' and 'wrong' over innate views. > What do others think about this tricky subject? > I'm taoist. I follow qi/chi in natural systems - food, herbs, humans, physics ( " the tao of physics " ), strategy, interpersonal skills. I find no evil outside the belief system that paints evil over the process. The more complicated your written references (law, rules of behaviour, ...) the more likely some take advantage and some become 'evil' in breaking the references. bye, vic -- Vic Williams (604)433-5189 -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi, wrote: > Attilio wrote: what is evil Qi?... What do others think about this >>tricky subject? > > Do we really want to follow this thread? You just did. > Is there any point in discussing colour with a colour-blind person, Or the reverse, if you are well-educated in a certain culture and belief you will automatically paint that over the situations you encounter. It's ancient taoism to avoid complexity in such areas. Google on " ladder of inference " for more on this. Then consider that the ladder is really a cycle, I prefer a five phase cycle, that can spiral outward or inward. Painting things with 'evil' spirals inward. People without your culture/education may be immoral in your view. I might suggest amoral. That only makes them evil if you decide to apply your views to them. Eastern views on gods and spirits are much more fluid than Western ones. Asians may make a mandala then release it into the wind or water. Westerners freeze it -hang it on the wall etc - and block the qi. Asians are more process or flow oriented and Western views are state oriented. Applying 'evil' to qi is an subconscious attempt to freeze qi into a form or state. This is good for archetypal purposes, and the image - the mandala - should then be released into the greater river of qi. Hanging it on the wall is exactly akin to pretending one will never die or will always be 18 years old. > or writing about the beauty and texture of sound and muscial > harmony (as in the music of Beethoven or Sibelius) to a deaf > person? > Actually deaf people activate a similar part of the brain when they feel sound vibrations. Drumming is a very effective communicator. Not as good as touch but touch is completely personal, not mass media. bye, vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi Phil, Yes I believe its a very important topic in TCM. I was taught that evil Qi is external environmental elements being where they shouldn't be. However, the learned and academic scholar Dr Unschuld linked evil Qi with immoral acts and sin. Of course morals in ancient China were held in high esteem and very important. Alot of Chinese names including my own have the word moral or virtues in it, so yes, its important to understand what is evil Qi. Attilio [] 22 November 2004 14:37 Chinese Medicine Cc: MMMeeting ; Likemlist Re: What is evil Qi? Hi All, & Attilio, Attilio wrote: > I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. > During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is > related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? > Is it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this > tricky subject? Do we really want to follow this thread? This is a tricky subject indeed, because it impinges on personal convictions or beliefs on the true meanings / values in life and death for them It impinges on their/our affiliation to, different religious beliefs / cultures. It also impinges on personal experiences that the experiencer holds as reality for him/her, but his/her brothers/sisters, and best friends, reject as reality for them. This List has members who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, HIndu, etc. Even WITHIN these groupings, I suspect that we come in all shapes and sizes, and with convictions that range from far-left to far-right. For " believers in spirit " , the concept of right and wrong, good and evil, and personal sin that needs atonement / forgiveness usually has meaning. Religious belief is classed as irrational, nonsensical, superstitious bunkum by most who hold no such beliefs. I suspect that many on this list do NOT believe in Spirit, G-d and Devil, Heaven-Hell, the concept of Sin and Karma, External Attack by Spirits / Demonic Possession, etc. Unfortunately, many people today have no concept of personal sin. For them, ANYTHING goes. The only Commandment is " Don't get caught " , especially in acts classed by their State as criminal or socially unacceptable. Anything goes, whatever takes their fancy at the time. Some examples that many of you will recognise in people that you know: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi, mike Bowser wrote: > Evil qi is a tough one to grasp. Is it a physical substance > or is it figment of our imagination? > Evil here is a pattern or archetype for modelling behavior. The results can be physical, or mental, or can show up in person to person or person to other-thing interactions. Some see evil in other-things. If we adopt a view of evil as a state then our mindset is blocking the flow of qi; we are propagating the condition into ourselves and likely into others and our environment. Recognition of this is ancient chinese thinking and acting, and modern (physics/strategy) thinking and acting, and a natural pattern. Locking into an evil state blocks and diverts five phase flows. It's the same pattern found in rigid right/wrong states that operate like light switches instead of rheostats/spectra. Rigid right views require 'evil' to reinforce wrong. They lead to rankism/scapgoating/witchhunts, and forms of denial. Inside the individual body such blockages and diversions lead to disease and poor performance. bye, vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Of course morals in ancient China were held in high esteem and very important. They still are today. As your own name implies. This is a confucianist view, presented by dominant society to control the overall population. It matches Christian views well and is taken as a dominant representation of chinese views by christian-based thinkers. It's accepted by Buddhists as part of their philosophy, and they very much flow with it. A taoist view is much more likely to represent natural patterns. PRC communism merges very well with such confucian thinking. > Alot of Chinese names including my own have the > word moral or virtues in it, so yes, its important to understand what is > evil Qi. > Confucian values intertwine with the family in family patterns, with male dominance. This matches with yang dominance in the five phases. Yang dominance shows up 'all over the place', so one can apply accupuncture concepts in feng shui if one follows, flows with, the principles. There is no inherent correlation between yang dominance and evil. Any condition that locks into a state and builds up and blocks flow might be seen as evil to help imagine and deal with the condition. bye, vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Paul Unschuld is simply providing the historical context for the medical use of the term " evil qi " , which arose from Chinese cultural ideas about health and disease in a Confucian context. Of course, you won't find the connection with amoral acts in modern TCM textbooks. On Nov 22, 2004, at 4:29 AM, Patricia Jordan wrote: > > In our class we were taught that " evil " qi is actually the perniculous > influences that are able to bring in pathogens to assault the > body........ie > the influenza virus would be evil qi brought in via the wind.Wind > being the > strongest of all perniculous influences........what is evil then was > the > virus that harmed the body............no one has ever nor have i ever > read > in any texts the definition of evil qi having anything to do with > imoral > acts.......................sincerely,P.Jordan,DVM,CVA > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Further to Attilio's comments, the appropriation of certain natural phenomenon with negative connotations certainly has a historical basis. However I remain unclear as to the connection with immorality, and would appreciate any further comments from Attilio or the rest of the group. Kate Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Phil, > > Yes I believe its a very important topic in TCM. I was taught that evil Qi > is external environmental elements being where they shouldn't be. > > However, the learned and academic scholar Dr Unschuld linked evil Qi with > immoral acts and sin. Of course morals in ancient China were held in high > esteem and very important. Alot of Chinese names including my own have the > word moral or virtues in it, so yes, its important to understand what is > evil Qi. > > Attilio > > > [@e...] > 22 November 2004 14:37 > Chinese Medicine > Cc: MMMeeting ; Likemlist > Re: What is evil Qi? > > > Hi All, & Attilio, > > Attilio wrote: > > I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. > > During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is > > related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? > > Is it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this > > tricky subject? > > Do we really want to follow this thread? This is a tricky subject > indeed, because it impinges on personal convictions or beliefs on > the true meanings / values in life and death for them > > It impinges on their/our affiliation to, different religious beliefs / > cultures. It also impinges on personal experiences that the > experiencer holds as reality for him/her, but his/her > brothers/sisters, and best friends, reject as reality for them. > > This List has members who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, HIndu, > etc. Even WITHIN these groupings, I suspect that we come in all > shapes and sizes, and with convictions that range from far-left to > far-right. > > For " believers in spirit " , the concept of right and wrong, good and > evil, and personal sin that needs atonement / forgiveness usually > has meaning. > > Religious belief is classed as irrational, nonsensical, superstitious > bunkum by most who hold no such beliefs. I suspect that many on > this list do NOT believe in Spirit, G-d and Devil, Heaven-Hell, the > concept of Sin and Karma, External Attack by Spirits / Demonic > Possession, etc. > > Unfortunately, many people today have no concept of personal sin. > For them, ANYTHING goes. The only Commandment is " Don't get > caught " , especially in acts classed by their State as criminal or > socially unacceptable. Anything goes, whatever takes their fancy > at the time. Some examples that many of you will recognise in > people that you know: > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Evil in Confucian thought is see as a deviation from the norms of nature and society, where living by the laws benefits all life and specifically human beings. So disease evils are seen as an aberration in nature, or a concurrent lapse in behavior in people, who then have weakened correct qi, which makes them susceptible to evil qi. That is one interpretation. On Nov 22, 2004, at 12:22 PM, kate wrote: > > Further to Attilio's comments, the appropriation of certain natural > phenomenon with negative connotations certainly has a historical > basis. However I remain unclear as to the connection with > immorality, and would appreciate any further comments from Attilio > or the rest of the group. > > Kate > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Well, personally I can see the historical significance of his statements from a Confucian point of view and to a certain degree, today's relevance to the fact that negative actions cause a disharmony of Qi and so dis-ease. As you Kate were sitting in the row behind me during the lecture, you must of heard Dr Unschuld's comments about the relation between evil Qi, immoral and sin, I wonder what thoughts you had on this interesting topic. Attilio kate [littlesoul22] 22 November 2004 20:23 Chinese Medicine Re: What is evil Qi? Further to Attilio's comments, the appropriation of certain natural phenomenon with negative connotations certainly has a historical basis. However I remain unclear as to the connection with immorality, and would appreciate any further comments from Attilio or the rest of the group. Kate Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Phil, > > Yes I believe its a very important topic in TCM. I was taught that evil Qi > is external environmental elements being where they shouldn't be. > > However, the learned and academic scholar Dr Unschuld linked evil Qi with > immoral acts and sin. Of course morals in ancient China were held in high > esteem and very important. Alot of Chinese names including my own have the > word moral or virtues in it, so yes, its important to understand what is > evil Qi. > > Attilio > > > [@e...] > 22 November 2004 14:37 > Chinese Medicine > Cc: MMMeeting ; Likemlist > Re: What is evil Qi? > > > Hi All, & Attilio, > > Attilio wrote: > > I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. > > During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is > > related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? > > Is it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this > > tricky subject? > > Do we really want to follow this thread? This is a tricky subject > indeed, because it impinges on personal convictions or beliefs on > the true meanings / values in life and death for them > > It impinges on their/our affiliation to, different religious beliefs / > cultures. It also impinges on personal experiences that the > experiencer holds as reality for him/her, but his/her > brothers/sisters, and best friends, reject as reality for them. > > This List has members who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, HIndu, > etc. Even WITHIN these groupings, I suspect that we come in all > shapes and sizes, and with convictions that range from far-left to > far-right. > > For " believers in spirit " , the concept of right and wrong, good and > evil, and personal sin that needs atonement / forgiveness usually > has meaning. > > Religious belief is classed as irrational, nonsensical, superstitious > bunkum by most who hold no such beliefs. I suspect that many on > this list do NOT believe in Spirit, G-d and Devil, Heaven-Hell, the > concept of Sin and Karma, External Attack by Spirits / Demonic > Possession, etc. > > Unfortunately, many people today have no concept of personal sin. > For them, ANYTHING goes. The only Commandment is " Don't get > caught " , especially in acts classed by their State as criminal or > socially unacceptable. Anything goes, whatever takes their fancy > at the time. Some examples that many of you will recognise in > people that you know: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I've come to view evil qi as something which is trying to affect your life in a negative fashion, and can hamper your purposes or goals. This ranges from something that you get sick from to someone out to hurt you. The reason you succumbed to the illness may have some other component to it - like you should take better care of yourself, but the fact remains that you did become ill and could not properly prevent it. The evil qi could be the qi of a bug, toxin, virus, or person, etc. I view some evil qi as relative. The pernicious influences (like damp, cold, viruses, etc) are evil when you're not prepared for them. But relative to themselves they're just being themselves. Then there is evil qi which is a person or institution out to get you. Maybe it's a patient who is fishing around to find a lawsuit, or some one you work with plotting against you. This is immoral from our perspective and will do harm if not dealt with and neutralized. All crime - whether it's white collar, or robbery or whatever I believe falls into the immoral evil qi category. I suppose you could extend unschuld's ideas a step further. If one practices acts of evil qi, you essentially create your own karma out of it. --brian beard > > " " <attiliodalberto> > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine > > What is evil Qi? > >Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:08:42 -0000 > > > > > >Hi all, > > > >I attended an Unschuld lecture the other day which I interesting. > >During this time Dr Unschuld make the statement that evil Qi is > >related to immoral acts or sin. I wondered then what is evil Qi? Is > >it really an immoral sinful act? What do others think about this > >tricky subject? > > > >Attilio > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 The subject is less tricky than " < (Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:37:24 -0000) suspects, is one recognizes the historical context, as others have pointed out ( " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto, Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:06:28 -0000; Vic Williams <vic, Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:27:02 -0800; " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe,Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:46:54 -0800; and well elaborated by Vic Williams Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:45:12 -0800; and Z'ev Rosenberg " Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:38:55 -0800). The words " morality " , and especially " sin " (which Attilio used) are loaded with meaning in a contemporary and Western context (as expressed in other responses) which don't really match the context of Confucianism, as I understand it. Confucianism is more a political and social phenomenon than a religion, in the sense of many Western religions. It deals (still, since, as someone pointed out, the PRC is very much a neo-Confucian state) more with observance of the proper relationships between people in prototypical roles, within or modeled on the family structure. Less so with the character of individual actions which don't impinge on those relationships. When individuals are cognizant of and follow proper behavior, according to role, in the family, in the village (extended family), the province/state, and the nation, then all goes well. (An interesting point - I think Unschuld made at some point - is that the modern Chinese dynasty as succeeded in transferring the fundamental Confucian relationship of loyalty and obedience from the father (or more generally, the head of the family) to the state, in effect to the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). It can even be understood in the sense of following the laws of nature (of society), but not in the Daoist, more individualistic sense. Unschuld often juxtaposes Confucianism, as the dominant tone in the Neijing Suwen (and other Han classics), associating with acupuncture, as opposed to the (pre-Song) herbal tradition, which was largely aligned with Daoist, naturalistic tendencies. In the Confucian model, if one behaves out of the proper norms (vis-à-vis the crucial relationships), it leads to illness - patterns of behavior (qi) that are " evil " . Correcting behavior is curative. Acupuncture is largely dispersing and regulating, and can be " rectifying " (see below). The Daoist/herbal notion that the appropriate (natural-science) herbal therapy can supplement and heal, regardless of one's attitude or behavior was largely disdained by the Confucists. (Unschuld considers the ShangHanLun's emphasis on herbs as an exceptional phenomenon, not mainstream until the Song and subsequent eras, after the herbal model was integrated into the classical theoretical framework -- systematic correspondence, in Unschuld's terminology). A representative concept is the notion of " li " or " principle " and the idea of " rectification " which I have alluded to previously. As a therapeutic function of acupuncture points, rectification refers to correcting deviation from the (Confucian) norm. The term appears in Song times, with the rise of neo-Confucianism following the influence of the philosopher Chu Xi. On the other hand, Jeffery Yuen has mentioned that rectification, as intentionality combined with the use of points that have that function, as a legitimate approach, when the practitioner believes the patient needs straightening out in some moral sense. This might be appropriate today in a somewhat homogeneous, closed social context, e.g. working in a rural Mormon community somewhere in Utah. As others here pointed out, in a urban, cosmopolitan context and clientele, it could easily be inappropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Hi Chris, You raise some interesting points. Firstly, regarding the use of the word 'sin'. I was quoting Dr Unschuld, but yes I agree that it is a western framework word that it should be used with caution. The lecture Dr Unschuld gave focused upon three main questions, they are: 1. What evidence exists that Chinese medicine preferred acupuncture and diet? 2. Is it true that it disregarded the pharmacological tradition? 3. If this is so, do we have an explanation? The conclusion of the lecture gave this summary of Dr Unschuld's findings, as so: Within Medical Literature: Parasitology: No Demons: No Yin and Yang plus Five agents: Yes Acupuncture and dietics: Yes Within Pharmaceutical Literature: Parasitology: Yes Demons: Yes Yin and Yang plus Five agents: No Acupuncture: No Dietics: Yes Dr Unschuld went on to state that Confucianism and legalism supported the development of beauracy at a time in China when it was sorely needed. Daoism views systems such as beauracy as the main cause of strive in life. Another interesting point made was that the popularity and development of acupuncture followed the rise and fall of Confucianism. This I find very interesting. If we look at this further, herbalism is more related to Daoism whilst acupuncture is more Confucianism. As these two political systems did not last the test of time and therefore failed to a degree, does that mean herbal medicine and acupuncture don't work or only worked during those times? We see now the PRC's TCM, based upon the western ideal of syndrome differentiation. Is this the correct form of TCM as it follows the advances of time and the development of society? When Communism collapses, will syndrome differentiation collapse aswell or will it be swallowed up by the TCM literature which has sought to contain all of the political inclusions in TCM and China over the last 2000 years. To the point what is TCM? Is it a mis-match of ideals, whether political, moral or ideological? Where are we now? And what will the future bring for the development of TCM? As it integrates into the west, surely it will development under western ideals and thinking towards life, death and illness. Therefore, it will be based upon certain ideals held in high regard in the west, such as religion, folk medicine, politics and money. How are we dependant upon the few remains of ancient texts which may not truly convey the WHOLE of TCM as it changed throughout its long history? Attilio [] 23 November 2004 08:07 Chinese Medicine Re: What is evil Qi? The subject is less tricky than " < (Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:37:24 -0000) suspects, is one recognizes the historical context, as others have pointed out ( " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto, Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:06:28 -0000; Vic Williams <vic, Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:27:02 -0800; " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe,Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:46:54 -0800; and well elaborated by Vic Williams Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:45:12 -0800; and Z'ev Rosenberg " Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:38:55 -0800). The words " morality " , and especially " sin " (which Attilio used) are loaded with meaning in a contemporary and Western context (as expressed in other responses) which don't really match the context of Confucianism, as I understand it. Confucianism is more a political and social phenomenon than a religion, in the sense of many Western religions. It deals (still, since, as someone pointed out, the PRC is very much a neo-Confucian state) more with observance of the proper relationships between people in prototypical roles, within or modeled on the family structure. Less so with the character of individual actions which don't impinge on those relationships. When individuals are cognizant of and follow proper behavior, according to role, in the family, in the village (extended family), the province/state, and the nation, then all goes well. (An interesting point - I think Unschuld made at some point - is that the modern Chinese dynasty as succeeded in transferring the fundamental Confucian relationship of loyalty and obedience from the father (or more generally, the head of the family) to the state, in effect to the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). It can even be understood in the sense of following the laws of nature (of society), but not in the Daoist, more individualistic sense. Unschuld often juxtaposes Confucianism, as the dominant tone in the Neijing Suwen (and other Han classics), associating with acupuncture, as opposed to the (pre-Song) herbal tradition, which was largely aligned with Daoist, naturalistic tendencies. In the Confucian model, if one behaves out of the proper norms (vis-à-vis the crucial relationships), it leads to illness - patterns of behavior (qi) that are " evil " . Correcting behavior is curative. Acupuncture is largely dispersing and regulating, and can be " rectifying " (see below). The Daoist/herbal notion that the appropriate (natural-science) herbal therapy can supplement and heal, regardless of one's attitude or behavior was largely disdained by the Confucists. (Unschuld considers the ShangHanLun's emphasis on herbs as an exceptional phenomenon, not mainstream until the Song and subsequent eras, after the herbal model was integrated into the classical theoretical framework -- systematic correspondence, in Unschuld's terminology). A representative concept is the notion of " li " or " principle " and the idea of " rectification " which I have alluded to previously. As a therapeutic function of acupuncture points, rectification refers to correcting deviation from the (Confucian) norm. The term appears in Song times, with the rise of neo-Confucianism following the influence of the philosopher Chu Xi. On the other hand, Jeffery Yuen has mentioned that rectification, as intentionality combined with the use of points that have that function, as a legitimate approach, when the practitioner believes the patient needs straightening out in some moral sense. This might be appropriate today in a somewhat homogeneous, closed social context, e.g. working in a rural Mormon community somewhere in Utah. As others here pointed out, in a urban, cosmopolitan context and clientele, it could easily be inappropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Hi, This could be supplemented by urban versus rural developments. Confucianism is centrally based and urban and with that has stronger ties to written records. Buddhism sprawls. Taoism follows natural patterns, most often in the country - rural - but also in strategy and science. Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Dr Unschuld went on to state that Confucianism and legalism supported the > development of beauracy at a time in China when it was sorely needed. Daoism > views systems such as beauracy as the main cause of strive in life. > Centralized systems justify themselves. We all do. If you do trade with china you'll agree with your Daoism comment above, unless you merge into the bureaucracy in a family-partner way. A good healthy community has an array of interconnections - a web or network like a family network. Bureaucracy cuts a gridwork of roads through the network for 'logical' reasons. This destroys many subtle interconnections and leads to ongoing strife as some fail and others take advantage of the new rules. TCM based on simple logical reasons may well treat peter and cause pain to paul. > Another interesting point made was that the popularity and development of > acupuncture followed the rise and fall of Confucianism. This is urban group reporting on paper on its activity, ignoring rural and outside-the-group activities. > herbalism is more related to Daoism > whilst acupuncture is more Confucianism. As these two political systems did > not last the test of time and therefore failed to a degree, does that mean > herbal medicine and acupuncture don't work or only worked during those > times? > This contains massive over-simplifications. Daoism merges very well with quantum physics and processwork psychology and strategy (war, marketing, seduction). Confucianism is a family based relationship system with sometimes political overtones. They merge in some ways in china. > We see now the PRC's TCM, based upon the western ideal of syndrome > differentiation. Is this the correct form of TCM as it follows the advances > of time and the development of society? TCM practitioners here display more variety than a standard beijing based philosphy. Asking " the correct form of TCM " displays one right answer internal thinking, where there are often some workable solutions and approaches. Please be aware that you will be intuitively attracted to someone who has similar background thinking patterns. If you believe in one god and have strong moral views you're likely attracted to similar speakers and writings. Particularly confucian views in the Asian context. Others might practise TCM following more diverse ways. And such variation has been inherent in Chinese medicine for a long long time. bye, vic -- Vic Williams (604)433-5189 -- www.strategicprocess.com -- www.spiralwild.com Empowering personal growth. Developing Personal & Group Ecology. " Friendship is the best medicine ever discovered. " -- Patch Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 > Another interesting point made was that the popularity and development of > acupuncture followed the rise and fall of Confucianism. Vic: This is urban group reporting on paper on its activity, ignoring rural and outside-the-group activities. Attilio: Are you sure Vic? Any references to justify your argument that this wasn't the case? > herbalism is more related to Daoism > whilst acupuncture is more Confucianism. As these two political systems did > not last the test of time and therefore failed to a degree, does that mean > herbal medicine and acupuncture don't work or only worked during those > times? > Vic: This contains massive over-simplifications. Daoism merges very well with quantum physics and processwork psychology and strategy (war, marketing, seduction). Confucianism is a family based relationship system with sometimes political overtones. They merge in some ways in china. Attilio: Where is the evidence that Daoism merges very well with quantum physics. > We see now the PRC's TCM, based upon the western ideal of syndrome > differentiation. Is this the correct form of TCM as it follows the advances > of time and the development of society? Vic: TCM practitioners here display more variety than a standard beijing based philosphy. Asking " the correct form of TCM " displays one right answer internal thinking, where there are often some workable solutions and approaches. Attilio: Still doesn't answer the question Vic. Will syndrome differentiation as taught my most TCM schools in the West because of the PRC's TCM continue to be used once Communism has fallen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Ni hao, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: >>Another interesting point made was that the popularity and development of >>acupuncture followed the rise and fall of Confucianism. > > Vic: This is urban group reporting on paper on its activity, ignoring > rural and outside-the-group activities. > > Attilio: Are you sure Vic? Any references to justify your argument that this > wasn't the case? The history of china is replete with examples of this sort of oneupmanship. Even the Dao is redefined differently by Daoists, Buddhists, and Confucians. If you make and sell a Toyota car in China, they clone it and and sell it in a different way. Read " The Journey to the West " as a famous example. > Modern China discounts daoism, yet students are taught aspects of it in the confucian dominated school system. It's impossible to completely separate Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism, or the family gods, from one another. Chan (Chinese precursor to zen) is a blend of Buddhism and Taoism. One can follow the threads through the interwoven web, and select by the dominant way of thinking but strict exclusion is impossible. > Attilio: Where is the evidence that Daoism merges very well with quantum > physics. " The Tao of Physics " by Fritjof Capra > Attilio: Still doesn't answer the question Vic. Will syndrome > differentiation as taught my most TCM schools in the West because of the > PRC's TCM continue to be used once Communism has fallen? > Oh but it did answer the question. Actual TCM in china is more diverse and evolves more readily and more broadly than your shown understanding. As does China. Why should Chinese Communism fall? It's already evolved to a point where the 'communist' part is rapidly being supplanted by politically agnostic Western trained technocrats. The PRC is sending MANY MANY managers into the west for training and greater awareness of western ways. I meet with some every day. China has massive diversity. The Red Army used 40,000 private enterprise companies to supply its needs for many years. Communism in China has always lived hand-in-hand with free enterprise. The dragon was never a monolith. The chinese mind is never as simple as linking accupuncture to confucianism or to communism might imply. zai jian, Vic -- Vic Williams (604)433-5189 -- www.strategicprocess.com -- www.spiralwild.com Empowering personal growth. Developing Personal & Group Ecology. Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature.... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. - Helen Keller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Hi All, & Brian, Brian wrote: > If one practices acts of evil qi, you essentially create your own > karma out of it. brian beard " As ye sow, so shall ye reap!... " is a common belief in many cultures and religions, including Hindu, Jewish & Christian.. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Attilio D'Alberto wrote: <snip> > When Communism collapses Hi Attilio! Prediction? May not happen. Change is likely but collapse is not certain. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Hi Attilio Thank you for raising these interesting questions. First, just for the record, I *think* that *most* of “syndrome differentiation” (bian4 zheng4) has been utilised within CM for at least several hundred years, ie:- Eight principle syndrome identification (ba1 gang1 bian4 zheng4) Qi-blood syndrome identification (qi4 xue4 bian4 zheng4) Organ syndrome identification (zang4 fu3 bian4 zheng4) Six-channel syndrome identification (liu4 jing1 bian4 zheng4) Four-aspect syndrome identification (wei4 qi4 ying2 xue4 bian4 zheng4) But, the one aspect of syndrome differentiation that has been introduced by the communists is:- Disease-evil syndrome identification (bing4 xie2 bian4 zheng4). I assume that this *latter* aspect is what you are referring to when you say “PRC's TCM, based upon the western ideal of syndrome differentiation”? I must say that Nathan Sivin's " Traditional Medicine in Contemporary China " is still sitting on my bookshelf waiting to be read. And I hope to buy Unschuld's book on Medicine in China sometime and read it too - when I get a spare week or two. Are there any other books (or other resources) that you (or others) can recommend for this topic? ie to help us understand where Chinese medicine was *just prior* to the batch of revolutions in China this century. (I think I read that some people consider this to be its zenith.) When we understand what CM was like at that time, it should be possible to determine *exactly* what changes the commuinists have made and therefore *exactly* how much modern Chinese TCM is coloured with communism. I haven’t yet studied this in depth; keep putting it off. So I’m going to dive in and give you some views now – maybe the resulting flak I get will spur me on to more study!!! This is my *current* impression gained from general reading in TCM. ----- Under the recent revolutions in China this century the following changes *seem* to me to have ocurred:- 1. Many richly varied, though *somewhat* incongruous, theories of Chinese medicine were fused together into one theoretical system = modern TCM. 2. This had the disadvantage of making parts of modern TCM textbooks difficult to understand and memorize as disparate streams of thought are jammed together in the same paragraph. (I've heard people say that they find the CM classics much easier to understand than modern 'zhongyi' literature - I assume this is the reason.) 3. Number 1 also had the disadvantage of losing some subtle detail from some of the old theories (as they were of necessity trimmed down in order to be jammed together). 4. Certain aspects of the old theories were discarded on purpose on idealogical grounds, eg the concept of the spirit. 5. Certain communist ideologies were incorporated - I have so far only noticed token ones here; they usually only feature in the opening paragraphs of chapters in modern TCM books, are more concerned with terminology and are of limited clinical relevance. 6. Certain modern western ideas were incorporated such as modern scientific research methodology (statistics and control groups) and some western physiology theory (eg role of the small intestine in digestion/assimilation). 7. This fusion of theories did however have the advantage of creating a system that could bring a large number of students up to a reasonable clinical standard in a short time so that they could make a difference - a pragmatic necessity in a modern society. When I've read Sivin and Unschuld my views on the above may change!!! However, *if* the preceding is a fair analysis of what has happened then my current opinion is that modern TCM is a worthwhile pursuit because:- a) It is a good thing to get practitioners up to an effective clinical standard in a reasonable timescale. I know there may be purists who believe that students of CM should work as an apprentice for 13 years before being allowed to practice; I think this is a great idea, but impractical for most people in the modern west, particularly if you are supporting a family and have to train in CM at an older age. b) The fusion of many relatively *incongruous* theories into one system of thought is a necessity to achieve objective a). This is particulary necessary when you consider the general trend towards statutory regulation in the UK (and I think wordwide). c) The loss of subtle detail in the old theories that comes from b) is regrettable, but, having studied this basic syllabus (ie modern TCM) and reached a level of basic clinical ability and having then got some real clinical experience under your belt, there is nothing to stop one from then branching out and studying the ancient texts and/or oral traditions, learning from them and eventually contributing to the reblending of those TCM theories. d) The discarding of certain ideas, like the spirit, is definitely regrettable, but again it can be supplemented by going back to the classics to fill the gaps. e) Regarding the inclusion of communist ideology, as I said above I cannot find very much of practical clinical import – can anyone else comment here? f) There is nothing wrong with science per say – what matters is how it’s done. The problem with a lot of modern biomedical science is that it has been hijacked by technology and miscroscopy; it de-emphasises observations and research methodologies that involve human senses (eg pulse-taking, tongue observation) and hypotheses based on macroscopic observations (eg whole-body patterns of signs and symptoms). This has made it lop-sided. But I believe genuine scientific method can and should be utilized in the pursuance of CM. The correct definition of scientific method as I understand it is:- a. Observing life; b. developing hypotheses to explain those observations (which is a purely inductive process); c. rigorously and objectively testing those hypotheses to raise them to the level of theory; d. rigorously and objectively testing those theories to improve them; and e. re-evaluating all newly emerging relevant data in likewise manner. Methodologies which resemble this, but lack the objectivity are not science; they are called metaphysics. Of course, scientific method can be pursued in a laboratory with technological instruments, statistics and double-blind radomized control groups. But it can also be done intuitively in clinical practice by a clinician using his senses to help real people. I believe we should embrace both applications of scientific method: the more intuitive clinical practice and the more mathematical (and technological if it becomes available) approach. For me this is a natural evolution of CM – mathematical and technological science is not intrinsically harmful and therefore can, and should, be utilized within CM. Regarding the remoulding of some old CM theory to accommodate modern biomedical physiology, such as the role of the small intestine in digestion/assimilation, I think this is a difficult area that requires great skill in CM. Having said all of that (largely in favour of modern TCM), a question that I find extremely interesting is this: Using this definition of scientific method (a-e above), how scientific was the CM of the classics and ancient physicians – and how metaphysical (ie shamanic) was it? In other words, how shamanic or scientific is our heritage? Of course, if our heritage was at least *partially* scientific then this would make modern TCM not so disimilar from ancient CM and therefore a perfectly valid continuum. This is quite straight-forward . *If, on the other hand*, our heritage was mostly shamanic then I think things become very unclear. Some could argue that modern TCM is *too* much of a culture shock and therefore a denial of our heritage and of the essencial philosophy of CM. But *some* could argue the opposite, ie that modern TCM brings needed change, a breath of fresh air, a new angle, something to complement the ancient shamanic ways. So I believe this question (the relative shamanic or scientific nature of ancient CM) is really important. I also thinkg it is really important, when addressing it, to avoid the trap of *automatically* ascribing to shamanism anything that is done without maths or technology, that uses the practitioner’s senses (rather than technology) and that utilizes a language that for various reasons we associate with astrology and spiritism. As I have already said above, maths and technology are not a pre-requisite for scientific method. In addition, astrological or spiritistic terminology is just that – terminology. It *may* indicate a supporting shamanic philosophy or it may merely be *labels* used to describe things that have actually been supported by scientific method. Let me give a made-up example. Say that next decade I develop a therapy whereby I needle Gv-24 (shen2 ting2 meaning “spirit gate”). Say that I use a method of stimulation that involves moving the needle up and down in time with the patient’s breathing and that I only do it during certain phases of the moon. Say that I use no technology, maths or control groups during the ten years of developing the therapy in clinic. Say that I develop a theory to explain this based on the moon’s gravitational effect on the human spirit and qi. Is this shamanism or scientific method? Some might immediately call it shamanism. Well, I don’t believe that you can answer that question without answering the following:- 1. Have I been objectively considering the results of this therapy on a reasonable number of different patients syndromes during the ten years? 2. Have I honestly and objectively re-drafted my theory where the findings have been contradictory? This is what determines whether it is shamanism or science. So how shamanic and how scientific was ancient CM? Any thoughts? ----- Ok. I put my head above the parapet. Let’s see what happens! All the best David Gordon CMIR, MBRCP(Amma, Tao-Yin), DCHA, Dip Tuina, Dip Tao-Yin, Postgrad Dip Chinese Attilio wrote:- ------- Message: 13 Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:59:58 -0000 " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto Re: What is evil Qi? .... We see now the PRC's TCM, based upon the western ideal of syndrome differentiation. Is this the correct form of TCM as it follows the advances of time and the development of society? When Communism collapses, will syndrome differentiation collapse aswell or will it be swallowed up by the TCM literature which has sought to contain all of the political inclusions in TCM and China over the last 2000 years. To the point what is TCM? Is it a mis-match of ideals, whether political, moral or ideological? Where are we now? And what will the future bring for the development of TCM? As it integrates into the west, surely it will development under western ideals and thinking towards life, death and illness. Therefore, it will be based upon certain ideals held in high regard in the west, such as religion, folk medicine, politics and money. How are we dependant upon the few remains of ancient texts which may not truly convey the WHOLE of TCM as it changed throughout its long history? Attilio .... ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Hi David, David:I assume that this *latter* aspect is what you are referring to when you say " PRC's TCM, based upon the western ideal of syndrome differentiation " ? Attilio: Yes it was, sorry. David: 1. Many richly varied, though *somewhat* incongruous, theories of Chinese medicine were fused together into one theoretical system = modern TCM. Attilio: I agree. As Unschuld said there are many contradictions in the Neijing when compared to later classics such as the Nanjing. This illustrates a number of aspects; that various thoughts were blended together, probably some difficult ancient schools of thought. And also, the Neijing wasn't edited as later classics were. David: 4. Certain aspects of the old theories were discarded on purpose on idealogical grounds, eg the concept of the spirit. Attilio: This is a major problem for TCM in China and a good reason why TCM had to expand outside of China in the west. We'll most likely end up importing certain TCM theories such as the spirit and its relation to disease back to China in the coming future. David: 5. Certain communist ideologies were incorporated - I have so far only noticed token ones here; they usually only feature in the opening paragraphs of chapters in modern TCM books, are more concerned with terminology and are of limited clinical relevance. Attilio: Yes, this is true. Also more notably is that everyone says the same thing! If you look in TCM books of today they don't really have different schools of thought, just slightly different termology and translating! David: a) It is a good thing to get practitioners up to an effective clinical standard in a reasonable timescale. I know there may be purists who believe that students of CM should work as an apprentice for 13 years before being allowed to practice; I think this is a great idea, but impractical for most people in the modern west, particularly if you are supporting a family and have to train in CM at an older age. Attilio: This is very true. In China and Korea you have long standing shadowing with your mentor. Here in the UK that is now starting with the RCHM and herbs, but even so, i've heard that as you follow your mentor in China and Korea, they'll tell you alot of insights and secrets regarding TCM handed down from generation to generation of practitioners. I can see this working here but i'm very sceptical as to how much handed down knowledge western practitioners have to start with, especially since the west is still catching up in the level of TCM education which IMO has been somewhat lacking until recently. David: f) There is nothing wrong with science per say - what matters is how it's done. The problem with a lot of modern biomedical science is that it has been hijacked by technology and miscroscopy; it de-emphasises observations and research methodologies that involve human senses (eg pulse-taking, tongue observation) and hypotheses based on macroscopic observations (eg whole-body patterns of signs and symptoms). Attilio: This is very true. I heard only recently at my first aid course that most doctors and nurses can't find a patient's pulse nowadays. Crazy I know. David: This has made it lop-sided. But I believe genuine scientific method can and should be utilized in the pursuance of CM. The correct definition of scientific method as I understand it is:- a. Observing life; b. developing hypotheses to explain those observations (which is a purely inductive process); c. rigorously and objectively testing those hypotheses to raise them to the level of theory; d. rigorously and objectively testing those theories to improve them; and e. re-evaluating all newly emerging relevant data in likewise manner. Methodologies which resemble this, but lack the objectivity are not science; they are called metaphysics. Of course, scientific method can be pursued in a laboratory with technological instruments, statistics and double-blind radomized control groups. Attilio: Sure but does a double blinded RCT work any better for allopathic medicine than it does for TCM? Syndrome differentiation doesn't allow an RCT to work and as the head of Glaxo-Welcome pointed out half their medicines don't work on half the people it should do. So, does any medicine work across the board? I don't think so. We may see the totally collapse of across the board medicines in favour of individual medications. Although I don't think this will happen until genetic medicine is born. David: Modern TCM brings needed change, a breath of fresh air, a new angle, something to complement the ancient shamanic ways. Attilio: Very true. You'll find I think, that TCM is very popular in countries and races of people that had a strong ancient folk medicine. In those races that didn't, WM is most favoured. David: Let me give a made-up example. Say that next decade I develop a therapy whereby I needle Gv-24 (shen2 ting2 meaning " spirit gate " ). Say that I use a method of stimulation that involves moving the needle up and down in time with the patient's breathing and that I only do it during certain phases of the moon. Say that I use no technology, maths or control groups during the ten years of developing the therapy in clinic. Say that I develop a theory to explain this based on the moon's gravitational effect on the human spirit and qi. Is this shamanism or scientific method? Some might immediately call it shamanism. Well, I don't believe that you can answer that question without answering the following:- 1. Have I been objectively considering the results of this therapy on a reasonable number of different patients syndromes during the ten years? 2. Have I honestly and objectively re-drafted my theory where the findings have been contradictory? This is what determines whether it is shamanism or science. So how shamanic and how scientific was ancient CM? Any thoughts? Attilio: Good question for Matt Bauer to answer!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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