Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM with and without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined as a reduction of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm wondering if anyone has advice about treating this condition with acupuncture & also how many treatments can be expected before change is observed. Thanks, Lisa Taylor-Swanson, LAc Tacoma, WA, USA -- Lisa J. Taylor-Swanson, LAc, MAcOM, Dipl. Ac (NCCAOM) Abundant Health Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs 253.952.2126 AHAcupuncture www.AbundantHealthAcupuncture.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hi, Linda and all, According to DO/LAc's who specialize in sports medicine, this type of tear is not going away with AP, and I agree. It usually requires surgery. Have a nice holiday season, Pam Price I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM with and without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined as a reduction of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm wondering if anyone has advice about treating this condition with acupuncture & also how many treatments can be expected before change is observed. Thanks, Lisa Taylor-Swanson, LAc Tacoma, WA, USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 AHAcupuncture wrote: > I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM with and without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined as a reduction of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm wondering if anyone has advice about treating this condition with acupuncture & also how many treatments can be expected before change is observed. > Hi Lisa! A " traditional " course of treatments is 10 treatments. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I'm one of those people who specialize in sports medicine and I agree with Pam. It's not going to go away. However, acupuncture can help reduce pain and inflammation and if the " flap " of cartilage decides to " lay down " , a person can post-pone surgery for some time. But, it'll crop up at some point down the road with just the right movement or circumstances. In the long run, it's just best to get the arthroscopic surgery; it's quick and recovery is so much less involved than it was even 7 or 8 years ago. Barbara Beale, MS, LAc, ATC _____ Pam Price [needledoc] Monday, November 22, 2004 10:32 AM Chinese Medicine Re: meniscus tear Hi, Linda and all, According to DO/LAc's who specialize in sports medicine, this type of tear is not going away with AP, and I agree. It usually requires surgery. Have a nice holiday season, Pam Price I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM with and without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined as a reduction of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm wondering if anyone has advice about treating this condition with acupuncture & also how many treatments can be expected before change is observed. Thanks, Lisa Taylor-Swanson, LAc Tacoma, WA, USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I've been told meniscus problems are impossible to treat with AP because the meniscii are avascular and won't heal. There is a chance you can treat a medial meniscus if the problem is on the medial side so there is an MCL component to it. The MCL connects to the meniscus as well as the bones, while the LCL only connects bone to bone. You can try needling alongside the MCL with e-stim. If it doesn't help then you probably have to refer out to surgery. There are tests you can perform to confirm the meniscus tear. --brian > > AHAcupuncture@c... wrote: > > I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM with and without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined as a reduction of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm wondering if anyone has advice about treating this condition with acupuncture & also how many treatments can be expected before change is observed. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I also have a note from a whittfield reeves seminar. He uses LR7 to differentiate a MCL problem from a meniscus problem. If LR7 is tender it is apparently a fairly reliable indicator that there is a MCL component. If not tender it is a meniscus problem. Another test to differentiate is have the patient lie prone with the knee bent 90 degrees. Press the leg down and grind and twist back and forth (within comfort limits) pushing down into the knee. If tender, it's a meniscus problem. Then press down on the hamstrings to hold the thigh down and pull the calf up and twist. This stresses the ligaments and indicates a ligament problem. Here's some other related notes I have from his seminar: medial treatments: horizontal nedling on both sides of the ligament. Knee flexed 15 degrees, supine, or whatever flexion is best 1) thread parallel to ligament - inferior or superior - this looks like it's really inferior and medial at the same time. Vary the angle to regulate the depth. 2) insert perpendicular to ligament, tap on the ligament a few times. Use two needles on both ends of attachments with e-stim. Tap in different directions. GB34, SP10 - very important - move xue & help tendons Medial - SP9 (because more likely to be swollen), SP6 (good as a crossing point because MCL is between SP,LR), LR5, LR6, SP6,8,9 medial knee pain / meniscus protocol: 1) bleed - LR1 2) opposite side - can try 3) opposite extremity - PC3 4) Shu Stream - LR3 (affected side) * PC6 (opp side) - for general knee pain (tong, tan's treatment) 5) antique - 6) empirical - LR2 & LR7 - specific for medial knee pain - whitt's own. Use LR7 as a diagnostic for MCL, if not painful it's a meniscus problem. SP4 - medial knee pain. 7) auricular - knee point 8) 8 extras - Dai 9) primary lesion - Thread the tendon, two needles at LR8 going underneath ligament or along side. homeopathics - arnica, rudigrav - rudigrav,rhustox (esp chondromalacia), calccarb, apis (true patellar bursitis), calcphos, calcfluor (patellar tendinitis) For knees, rhustox is the most important for knee. May need high potency like 200, 1M in chronic. after 72 hours, use ledum for reducing edema If you determine a meniscus problem (or not progressing), refer out. For acute - ice subacute - ice/heat LR3 (same side), PC6 (opp side) - effective for many types of knee pain (esp medial) move knee while needles are in & getting stimulated Pain doesn't have to be on LR for this to work. medial knee pain due to MCL tear on liver pathway, liver pathology test - push laterally on foot & hold knee in place For MCL grade 1 or 2, ok to do local points, for complete tear, go distally or opp side. In that case we want scar tissue to form, and needles may discourage this from happening. LR3 & PC6 LR2 & PC6 - great for acute cases LR7 - also good for MCL. It's always a sensitive point (use w/ LR2) LR8 - try to go into joint space under ligament (with electricity) Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard " <brian_s_beard@h...> wrote: > > I've been told meniscus problems are impossible to treat with AP > because the meniscii are avascular and won't heal. There is a chance > you can treat a medial meniscus if the problem is on the medial side > so there is an MCL component to it. The MCL connects to the meniscus > as well as the bones, while the LCL only connects bone to bone. You > can try needling alongside the MCL with e-stim. If it doesn't help > then you probably have to refer out to surgery. There are tests you > can perform to confirm the meniscus tear. > > --brian > > > > > AHAcupuncture@c... wrote: > > > I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM > with and without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined > as a reduction of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm > wondering if anyone has advice about treating this condition with > acupuncture & also how many treatments can be expected before change > is observed. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Hi Linda and Pam I've never treated this, but have one reference in my library: " Handbook of Acupuncture in the Treatment of Musculskeletal Conditions " , Lu Shaojie, ISBN 1-901149-00-5, p133: " Needling therapy is only effective at the initial stage in reducing swelling and relieving pain. It cannot be used when the injury is accompanied by effusion. An operation is sometimes required. Needling therapy can be used to reduce adhesions and alleviate pain during post-operative rehabilitation. " Mr Lu prescribes: Neixiyan (EX-LE-4) Dubi (St-35) Xuehai (Sp-10) Heding (EX-LE-2) Zusanli (St-36) all on affected side. All the best David Gordon CMIR, MBRCP(Amma, Tao-Yin), DCHA, Dip Tuina, Dip Tao-Yin, Postgrad Dip Chinese Previous posts:- ---------------- Message: 7 Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:32:08 -0800 " Pam Price " <needledoc Re: meniscus tear Hi, Linda and all, According to DO/LAc's who specialize in sports edicine, this type of tear is not going away with AP, and I agree. It usually requires surgery. Have a nice holiday season, Pam Price I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM with and without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined as a reduction of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm wondering if anyone has advice about treating this condition with acupuncture & also how many treatments can be expected before change is observed. Thanks, Lisa Taylor-Swanson, LAc Tacoma, WA, USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Agreed. The most you get is temporary alleviation of pain; although for small tears, I have used a combination of acupuncture and physical therapy successfully. It takes time, though, because of the limited vascularization of the tissue. The surgery these days is less invasive than it used to be, and those patients I have had to refer to the surgeon have had generally successful recoveries without long-term disability. Avery L. Jenkins, DC, DACBN, FIAMA - " Pam Price " <needledoc <Chinese Medicine > Monday, November 22, 2004 1:32 PM Re: meniscus tear > > > Hi, Linda and all, > According to DO/LAc's who specialize in sports medicine, this type of tear > is not going away with AP, and I agree. It usually requires surgery. > Have a nice holiday season, Pam Price > > > > I'm treating a person for a medial meniscus tear. I've used TCM with and > without estim, both without success. (Sucess being defined as a reduction > of pain in the 3 sessions this patient has had.) I'm wondering if anyone > has advice about treating this condition with acupuncture & also how many > treatments can be expected before change is observed. > > Thanks, > Lisa Taylor-Swanson, LAc > Tacoma, WA, USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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