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In response to mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 ,Sat, 13 Nov 2004

07:42:28 -0600

 

>Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are

actual structures? …Or do practitioners just think that these are all just

metaphors?

 

I think an answer would have to deal with issues of interpretation here,

beginning with the terminology - " classical info " , " actual structures " , and

" just metaphors " .

 

To a 20th-21st-century Western mind, the meaning of " actual structures " is

likely to be overloaded by the concepts of objectivisitic, even

positivistic reality. These concepts might further imply the possibility,

or, some would say, the necessity of having proof, or objective evidence to

back up a belief in " actual structures " . Imputing this kind of

understanding back into writings and traditions from many centuries past,

and another cultural evolution, I would consider, at the very least,

problematic.

 

Every so often, someone claims to have substantiated the existence of the

channels, often researchers in Japan or Korea. It is known that " points "

can be detected/located by GSR electrical measurement. The Bensky et all

book, A Comprehensive Text, has a section sampling various modern (TCM)

theories as to different mechanisms used to 'explain' point and channel

function. In the earliest days of what later became known as TCM, i.e. the

work of Zhu Lian ( " The New Acupuncture " , 1951), was characterized by

revolutionary administrative and military metaphors, and Soviet

neurological science as a leading model (notably Pavlov's theory of nerve

function).

 

My sense from an ongoing study of " classical info " , in the sense of the Han

and later writings is that the classical discussion is 'descriptive' of

perceived physiological and pathological phenomena, framed by certain

evolving theoretical concepts. These latter I think can be understood as

metaphors, but not " just " or merely metaphors.

 

I think the history of channel descriptions illustrates the idea of

metaphor. Differences in the structure of channels corresponds to different

interpretations of the process of energetic physiology and the etiology and

process of pathology in different schools of thought. Beginning with

neijing " root and termination " descriptions (jing-well and the other

" antique " points, running to termination areas on the head, thorax and

abdomen). Up to the Ming era, pathways evolved, adding points and the

concept of the 24-hour clock and the continuous connection of the 12

primary channels. The 14 channels (12 PM + Du & Ren) has been standard since

Ming times, together with the 8-Extraordinary system. The sinew, luo and

divergent systems are less elaborated in modern times (Ming and since),

while they were more vividly understood and utilized in classical times.

 

The earliest post-revolutionary model for " modern " acupuncture (the work

and writings of Zhu Lian, mentioned above), completely abandoned the

traditional jing-luo system (as well as Yin/Yang, 5-phases, etc.), in favor

of new division and zones and neurological theory. Those theoretical

aspects were later reintroduced as doctors and scholars with more

traditional knowledge were allowed to participate (though they rarely

dominated) in the formation of the new zhongyi (TCM).

 

>Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be

akin to qi that flows through these? If not, how is chronicity of problems

addressed?

 

" Substance " is another word that has a somewhat hard, objective connotation

in English. I find sense in an understanding that qi and xue/blood -

together as yingqi - move along pathways, to various degrees observable and

manipulatable. Specifically, qi as pure behavior (TCM textbook definition:

warming, moving, transmuting, protecting, holding in place - all actions)

represents the activities of living tissue and structures. To have

activity, there must be something, a substrate to carry it, something which

is warmed, moved, etc., namely xue/blood. " Qi commands xue; xue is the

mother of qi. " Living-behavior moves, interacts along various paths, and

has effects across different, often rather distal portions of the body. The

channels systems represent codification of eons of collected observations

of physiological, pathological and treatment effects. They are mental

constructs to represent that body of empirical data.

 

Chronicity is a more involved topic. For instance, in sinew channel theory

(SM), it comes up when pathology progresses from the yang leg channels and

manifests in the yang arm channels, or when the yin channels become

affected. The luo vessels in general represent transient states of

progression of PFs (pathological factors) in the battle back and forth from

the weiqi level (SM) into the yingqi (PM). Divergent channels have more do

to with chronicity, as dealing with weiqi interacting with yuan/source qi,

and source-yin mobilized to bring PFs into latency (in the major joints, in

the lymphatic system, or in tumors) to protect (divert from) the deeper

organs and yuan level.

 

Anyway, that's how I (currently) see it.

 

>And lastly, did your school encourage one theory or another?

 

(PCOM San Diego, 1987-1991) Not really. By and large the goal was gearing

up to pass the CALE (Calif. Acup. Lic. Exam), and assimilate vanilla TCM

dogma (Essentials/CAM, A Comprehensive Text, Wiseman et all texts,

Maciocia, etc.) Some teachers would impart aspects of Korean or Japanese

theory, but mostly in terms of treatment approaches. Channel theory was a

matter of memorizing the standard info from the books. The most complete

information for the channel systems beyond the primary channels, at that

time, was Royston Low's book on the 2ndary Channels, but this whole area

was (is?) considered, well, secondary.

 

Thanks for introducing this important and fascinating topic.

 

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Excellent post Chris.

 

I also heard about the discovery of the meridians by I believe a North

Korean. It was later considered a hoax.

 

Do you have any more information on this hoax? And what about the Japanese

research into the existence of the Jinglou.

 

Attilio

 

[]

14 November 2004 09:48

Chinese Medicine

Re: jing-luo theory

 

Every so often, someone claims to have substantiated the existence of the

channels, often researchers in Japan or Korea. It is known that " points "

can be detected/located by GSR electrical measurement. The Bensky et all

book, A Comprehensive Text, has a section sampling various modern (TCM)

theories as to different mechanisms used to 'explain' point and channel

function. In the earliest days of what later became known as TCM, i.e. the

work of Zhu Lian ( " The New Acupuncture " , 1951), was characterized by

revolutionary administrative and military metaphors, and Soviet

neurological science as a leading model (notably Pavlov's theory of nerve

function).

 

 

 

 

 

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Chris,

 

Are you referring to the work of the N. Korean by the name of Dr. Kim Bong

han? I would like to know more about the research that disproved his work?

We must be cautious about trusting the western scientific community. If I

believed rumors and the politics then I would not critically understand the

importance of Dr. Kervran¹s work (biological transmutation of sodium into

potassium), which won him a Nobel Prize nomination in physics) or the

hemotology work of Dr. Kikuo Chishima, which won him several government

awards. Both of these people have created proof that our ancient medicine

is correct yet their works have not been embraced nor widely accepted.

 

I am researching and writing a textbook and think that we need to explore

these and other ideas in order to have an open mind and better understanding

(ie, critical thinking) of an integrative medical understanding. Lastly, in

my endeavors there was a recent study (on Pub Med) of amputated limbs that

showed a significantly larger concentration of mast cells (cells that

produce histamine/heparine and other substances) directly along the known

jing luo pathways. This is the kind of open dialogue our profession needs

more of. Thanks for any information and the discussion.

 

Mike Bowser, L Ac

 

On 11/14/04 5:27 AM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

wrote:

 

> Excellent post Chris.

>

> I also heard about the discovery of the meridians by I believe a North

> Korean. It was later considered a hoax.

>

> Do you have any more information on this hoax? And what about the Japanese

> research into the existence of the Jinglou.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> []

> 14 November 2004 09:48

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: jing-luo theory

>

> Every so often, someone claims to have substantiated the existence of the

> channels, often researchers in Japan or Korea. It is known that " points "

> can be detected/located by GSR electrical measurement. The Bensky et all

> book, A Comprehensive Text, has a section sampling various modern (TCM)

> theories as to different mechanisms used to 'explain' point and channel

> function. In the earliest days of what later became known as TCM, i.e. the

> work of Zhu Lian ( " The New Acupuncture " , 1951), was characterized by

> revolutionary administrative and military metaphors, and Soviet

> neurological science as a leading model (notably Pavlov's theory of nerve

> function).

>

>

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Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:27:25 -0000, " Attilio D'Alberto "

<attiliodalberto wrote:

 

> Do you have any more information on this hoax? And what about the Japanese

research into the existence of the JingLuo

 

and Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:23:01 -0600, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

wrote:

 

> Are you referring to the work of the N. Korean by the name of Dr. Kim Bong

han? I would like to know more about the research that disproved his work?

.. … Both of these people have created proof that our ancient medicine is

correct yet their works have not been embraced nor widely accepted.

 

Sorry, I don't have more specific information. Several years ago I attended

a lecture by a Japanese researcher presenting impressive evidence (and good

design), but can't recall details.

 

Clearly (from the viewpoint of one educated and practically involved with

CM treatment) stimulation at body points can produce a wide range of

effects, and in patterns, locally, regionally and distally. So examining

carefully any of a number of physiological aspects is bound to find some

correlation. A problem is that science, in its current form, puts a lot of

stock in trying to 'reduce' a phenomenon to an analytically isolatable

mechanism. So looking, individually, at nerve conduction, chemical

reactions, electrolytic flows and balance, etc. will inevitably offer some

evidence. But CM/acupuncture works where-ever and however it can, using a

wide range of physiological (as well as other) effects, and organizing

these into complex, dynamic patterns. This is beyond standard scientific

explanation.

 

Also, if it were the case that a single (or combination of) reductionistic

theories (and evidence) were to adequately explain the effects of CM, then

that domain of phenomena, and the treatment thereof would appropriated by

biomechanical medicine (WM) in short order.

 

One bit of evidence (I can look it up if anyone wants) I consider

constructive was published results demonstrating that acupuncture needle

stimulation simply produces a physiological effect. They twisted inserted

needles by machine, eliminating the 'intentionality' of the practitioner,

and the manipulation produced an effect (pain). The more twisting, the more

pain. (They were doing what we are taught never to do - twist continuously

in one direction!) This is constructive in the sense that it demonstrates

effect, rather than just something like placebo effect. It's also good that

it didn't hypothesize any meaning or mechanism to the effect. Constructive

in that it provides a piece in the puzzle of logic needed to convince

parties like insurance companies.

 

marcos <ishk18

Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:52:14 -0300 (ART)

 

> This basis [of TCM] was formed by people who had direct perception of

these (channels and Qi), through Qigong.

 

Assuming that you (Marcos) are referring to the 2000+ year 'basis', as

distinct from the 50+ year history of 'TCM' as a proper term, what term do

you find used back through the 2000+ span for 'gigong'? My understanding is

that the general usage of 'qigong' as we now use it goes back only 30-40

years. I suspect a candidate term would be 'neigong', or 'internal

exercise' - at least I believe this term was used earlier. 'Daoyin' was

apparently widely used in the era of the MaWangDui manuscripts, is

mentioned in the historical introduction in the CAM book, and has some

usage as the Japanese 'Do-In'. I've also come across Daoist alchemical

practices called (tai yu) shen gong ( " Great/supreme jade spirit

practice/cultivation " ), which is claimed to go back a long time.

 

Does anyone know of any books from Tang, Song-Jin-Yuan, Ming or Qing eras

that focus on 'moving meditation' or 'qi cultivation' type exercises, and

what do they call it?

 

(I think I've asked this before but didn't get much response.)

 

 

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Hi Mike & All,

 

Mike Bowser wrote:

> ... there was a recent study (on Pub Med) of amputated limbs that

> showed a significantly larger concentration of mast cells (cells

> that produce histamine/heparine and other substances) directly

> along the known jing luo pathways. This is the kind of open

> dialogue our profession needs more of. Thanks for any information

> and the discussion. Mike Bowser, L Ac

 

Mike, there was a paper in 1990 on that, but I can find no followup

since then:

 

Zhu Z, Xu R. [Morphometric observation on the mast cells under

the acupuncture meridian lines - Article in Chinese] Zhen Ci Yan

Jiu. 1990;15(2):157-8. Institute of Biophysics, Academia Sinica.

Observation of the number, distribution and characteristics of the

mast cells under the low impedance acupuncture meridian lines of

19 amputated limbs of patients suffered from osteoblastoma and 21

rats was carried out microscopically after sectioned and toluidine

blue stained. Results revealed that the number of the mast cell was

more concentrate under the meridian lines in comparison with their

control areas. The difference was significant. This experiment reflexed another

aspect of the morphological basis of the biophysical nature of the acupuncture

meridian. PMID: 2125867

[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

Have you other (more recent) references on that? I can find only 3 papers (all

dating from 1990, or before) on Medline for the profile:

amput* AND acup* AND (channel* OR meridian*). Only one (#1) is relevant.

 

1. (the one referred to above).

 

2. [Not relevant]: Xue CC. Acupuncture induced phantom limb and meridian

phenomenon in acquired and congenital amputees. A suggestion of the use of

acupuncture as a method for investigation of phantom limb. Chin Med J (Engl).

1986 Mar;99(3):247-52. No Abstract. Publication Types: Case Reports PMID:

3095054 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

3. [Not relevant to Bonghan Theory] Bossy J. Morphological data concerning

the acupuncture points and channel network. Acupunct Electrother Res.

1984;9(2):79-106. Through its traditional rules, the practice of acupuncture

requires knowledge of the channel networks and point locations. For nearly

three centuries, morphological research did not show any evidence on

peripheral morphological support of the channels. Their courses appear as

referred sensations, and the persistence of propogated sensations along the

channels in amputees and their cessation after total section of the spinal cord

implicates a neuraxial participation. The spatial sequence of the segmental

centers seems to be the indispensable primary structure. Through the various

centers having a topical organization, the somesthetic areas appear as the

necessary structural support of the propogated sensation along the channel.

Acupuncture points are less discussed as a basis of acupuncture in the West,

but they do have equivalences in all medical systems. Nervous structures are

necessary for acupuncture to work, and complete denervation totally

suppresses the effect of the points. There is not only one type of acupuncture

point but many of them, and the concomitant stimulation of multiple and clearly

defined structures is necessary to obtain the acupuncture sensation, De Qi.

Thus, the effect seems strictly correlated with convergence of nerve impulses

on the primary centers. Lastly, accurate anatomical knowledge of the point and

its correct puncture (location, direction, depth) are indispensable to get

satisfactory therapeutic effects and to avoid iatrogenic incidents. Publication

Types: Review PMID: 6148847 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

PS: Medline has NO references to: acup* AND bonghan

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

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