Guest guest Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 In response to mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 ,Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:42:28 -0600 >Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are actual structures? …Or do practitioners just think that these are all just metaphors? I think an answer would have to deal with issues of interpretation here, beginning with the terminology - " classical info " , " actual structures " , and " just metaphors " . To a 20th-21st-century Western mind, the meaning of " actual structures " is likely to be overloaded by the concepts of objectivisitic, even positivistic reality. These concepts might further imply the possibility, or, some would say, the necessity of having proof, or objective evidence to back up a belief in " actual structures " . Imputing this kind of understanding back into writings and traditions from many centuries past, and another cultural evolution, I would consider, at the very least, problematic. Every so often, someone claims to have substantiated the existence of the channels, often researchers in Japan or Korea. It is known that " points " can be detected/located by GSR electrical measurement. The Bensky et all book, A Comprehensive Text, has a section sampling various modern (TCM) theories as to different mechanisms used to 'explain' point and channel function. In the earliest days of what later became known as TCM, i.e. the work of Zhu Lian ( " The New Acupuncture " , 1951), was characterized by revolutionary administrative and military metaphors, and Soviet neurological science as a leading model (notably Pavlov's theory of nerve function). My sense from an ongoing study of " classical info " , in the sense of the Han and later writings is that the classical discussion is 'descriptive' of perceived physiological and pathological phenomena, framed by certain evolving theoretical concepts. These latter I think can be understood as metaphors, but not " just " or merely metaphors. I think the history of channel descriptions illustrates the idea of metaphor. Differences in the structure of channels corresponds to different interpretations of the process of energetic physiology and the etiology and process of pathology in different schools of thought. Beginning with neijing " root and termination " descriptions (jing-well and the other " antique " points, running to termination areas on the head, thorax and abdomen). Up to the Ming era, pathways evolved, adding points and the concept of the 24-hour clock and the continuous connection of the 12 primary channels. The 14 channels (12 PM + Du & Ren) has been standard since Ming times, together with the 8-Extraordinary system. The sinew, luo and divergent systems are less elaborated in modern times (Ming and since), while they were more vividly understood and utilized in classical times. The earliest post-revolutionary model for " modern " acupuncture (the work and writings of Zhu Lian, mentioned above), completely abandoned the traditional jing-luo system (as well as Yin/Yang, 5-phases, etc.), in favor of new division and zones and neurological theory. Those theoretical aspects were later reintroduced as doctors and scholars with more traditional knowledge were allowed to participate (though they rarely dominated) in the formation of the new zhongyi (TCM). >Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be akin to qi that flows through these? If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? " Substance " is another word that has a somewhat hard, objective connotation in English. I find sense in an understanding that qi and xue/blood - together as yingqi - move along pathways, to various degrees observable and manipulatable. Specifically, qi as pure behavior (TCM textbook definition: warming, moving, transmuting, protecting, holding in place - all actions) represents the activities of living tissue and structures. To have activity, there must be something, a substrate to carry it, something which is warmed, moved, etc., namely xue/blood. " Qi commands xue; xue is the mother of qi. " Living-behavior moves, interacts along various paths, and has effects across different, often rather distal portions of the body. The channels systems represent codification of eons of collected observations of physiological, pathological and treatment effects. They are mental constructs to represent that body of empirical data. Chronicity is a more involved topic. For instance, in sinew channel theory (SM), it comes up when pathology progresses from the yang leg channels and manifests in the yang arm channels, or when the yin channels become affected. The luo vessels in general represent transient states of progression of PFs (pathological factors) in the battle back and forth from the weiqi level (SM) into the yingqi (PM). Divergent channels have more do to with chronicity, as dealing with weiqi interacting with yuan/source qi, and source-yin mobilized to bring PFs into latency (in the major joints, in the lymphatic system, or in tumors) to protect (divert from) the deeper organs and yuan level. Anyway, that's how I (currently) see it. >And lastly, did your school encourage one theory or another? (PCOM San Diego, 1987-1991) Not really. By and large the goal was gearing up to pass the CALE (Calif. Acup. Lic. Exam), and assimilate vanilla TCM dogma (Essentials/CAM, A Comprehensive Text, Wiseman et all texts, Maciocia, etc.) Some teachers would impart aspects of Korean or Japanese theory, but mostly in terms of treatment approaches. Channel theory was a matter of memorizing the standard info from the books. The most complete information for the channel systems beyond the primary channels, at that time, was Royston Low's book on the 2ndary Channels, but this whole area was (is?) considered, well, secondary. Thanks for introducing this important and fascinating topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Excellent post Chris. I also heard about the discovery of the meridians by I believe a North Korean. It was later considered a hoax. Do you have any more information on this hoax? And what about the Japanese research into the existence of the Jinglou. Attilio [] 14 November 2004 09:48 Chinese Medicine Re: jing-luo theory Every so often, someone claims to have substantiated the existence of the channels, often researchers in Japan or Korea. It is known that " points " can be detected/located by GSR electrical measurement. The Bensky et all book, A Comprehensive Text, has a section sampling various modern (TCM) theories as to different mechanisms used to 'explain' point and channel function. In the earliest days of what later became known as TCM, i.e. the work of Zhu Lian ( " The New Acupuncture " , 1951), was characterized by revolutionary administrative and military metaphors, and Soviet neurological science as a leading model (notably Pavlov's theory of nerve function). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Chris, Are you referring to the work of the N. Korean by the name of Dr. Kim Bong han? I would like to know more about the research that disproved his work? We must be cautious about trusting the western scientific community. If I believed rumors and the politics then I would not critically understand the importance of Dr. Kervran¹s work (biological transmutation of sodium into potassium), which won him a Nobel Prize nomination in physics) or the hemotology work of Dr. Kikuo Chishima, which won him several government awards. Both of these people have created proof that our ancient medicine is correct yet their works have not been embraced nor widely accepted. I am researching and writing a textbook and think that we need to explore these and other ideas in order to have an open mind and better understanding (ie, critical thinking) of an integrative medical understanding. Lastly, in my endeavors there was a recent study (on Pub Med) of amputated limbs that showed a significantly larger concentration of mast cells (cells that produce histamine/heparine and other substances) directly along the known jing luo pathways. This is the kind of open dialogue our profession needs more of. Thanks for any information and the discussion. Mike Bowser, L Ac On 11/14/04 5:27 AM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > Excellent post Chris. > > I also heard about the discovery of the meridians by I believe a North > Korean. It was later considered a hoax. > > Do you have any more information on this hoax? And what about the Japanese > research into the existence of the Jinglou. > > Attilio > > > [] > 14 November 2004 09:48 > Chinese Medicine > Re: jing-luo theory > > Every so often, someone claims to have substantiated the existence of the > channels, often researchers in Japan or Korea. It is known that " points " > can be detected/located by GSR electrical measurement. The Bensky et all > book, A Comprehensive Text, has a section sampling various modern (TCM) > theories as to different mechanisms used to 'explain' point and channel > function. In the earliest days of what later became known as TCM, i.e. the > work of Zhu Lian ( " The New Acupuncture " , 1951), was characterized by > revolutionary administrative and military metaphors, and Soviet > neurological science as a leading model (notably Pavlov's theory of nerve > function). > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:27:25 -0000, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > Do you have any more information on this hoax? And what about the Japanese research into the existence of the JingLuo and Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:23:01 -0600, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > Are you referring to the work of the N. Korean by the name of Dr. Kim Bong han? I would like to know more about the research that disproved his work? .. … Both of these people have created proof that our ancient medicine is correct yet their works have not been embraced nor widely accepted. Sorry, I don't have more specific information. Several years ago I attended a lecture by a Japanese researcher presenting impressive evidence (and good design), but can't recall details. Clearly (from the viewpoint of one educated and practically involved with CM treatment) stimulation at body points can produce a wide range of effects, and in patterns, locally, regionally and distally. So examining carefully any of a number of physiological aspects is bound to find some correlation. A problem is that science, in its current form, puts a lot of stock in trying to 'reduce' a phenomenon to an analytically isolatable mechanism. So looking, individually, at nerve conduction, chemical reactions, electrolytic flows and balance, etc. will inevitably offer some evidence. But CM/acupuncture works where-ever and however it can, using a wide range of physiological (as well as other) effects, and organizing these into complex, dynamic patterns. This is beyond standard scientific explanation. Also, if it were the case that a single (or combination of) reductionistic theories (and evidence) were to adequately explain the effects of CM, then that domain of phenomena, and the treatment thereof would appropriated by biomechanical medicine (WM) in short order. One bit of evidence (I can look it up if anyone wants) I consider constructive was published results demonstrating that acupuncture needle stimulation simply produces a physiological effect. They twisted inserted needles by machine, eliminating the 'intentionality' of the practitioner, and the manipulation produced an effect (pain). The more twisting, the more pain. (They were doing what we are taught never to do - twist continuously in one direction!) This is constructive in the sense that it demonstrates effect, rather than just something like placebo effect. It's also good that it didn't hypothesize any meaning or mechanism to the effect. Constructive in that it provides a piece in the puzzle of logic needed to convince parties like insurance companies. marcos <ishk18 Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:52:14 -0300 (ART) > This basis [of TCM] was formed by people who had direct perception of these (channels and Qi), through Qigong. Assuming that you (Marcos) are referring to the 2000+ year 'basis', as distinct from the 50+ year history of 'TCM' as a proper term, what term do you find used back through the 2000+ span for 'gigong'? My understanding is that the general usage of 'qigong' as we now use it goes back only 30-40 years. I suspect a candidate term would be 'neigong', or 'internal exercise' - at least I believe this term was used earlier. 'Daoyin' was apparently widely used in the era of the MaWangDui manuscripts, is mentioned in the historical introduction in the CAM book, and has some usage as the Japanese 'Do-In'. I've also come across Daoist alchemical practices called (tai yu) shen gong ( " Great/supreme jade spirit practice/cultivation " ), which is claimed to go back a long time. Does anyone know of any books from Tang, Song-Jin-Yuan, Ming or Qing eras that focus on 'moving meditation' or 'qi cultivation' type exercises, and what do they call it? (I think I've asked this before but didn't get much response.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Hi Mike & All, Mike Bowser wrote: > ... there was a recent study (on Pub Med) of amputated limbs that > showed a significantly larger concentration of mast cells (cells > that produce histamine/heparine and other substances) directly > along the known jing luo pathways. This is the kind of open > dialogue our profession needs more of. Thanks for any information > and the discussion. Mike Bowser, L Ac Mike, there was a paper in 1990 on that, but I can find no followup since then: Zhu Z, Xu R. [Morphometric observation on the mast cells under the acupuncture meridian lines - Article in Chinese] Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1990;15(2):157-8. Institute of Biophysics, Academia Sinica. Observation of the number, distribution and characteristics of the mast cells under the low impedance acupuncture meridian lines of 19 amputated limbs of patients suffered from osteoblastoma and 21 rats was carried out microscopically after sectioned and toluidine blue stained. Results revealed that the number of the mast cell was more concentrate under the meridian lines in comparison with their control areas. The difference was significant. This experiment reflexed another aspect of the morphological basis of the biophysical nature of the acupuncture meridian. PMID: 2125867 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Have you other (more recent) references on that? I can find only 3 papers (all dating from 1990, or before) on Medline for the profile: amput* AND acup* AND (channel* OR meridian*). Only one (#1) is relevant. 1. (the one referred to above). 2. [Not relevant]: Xue CC. Acupuncture induced phantom limb and meridian phenomenon in acquired and congenital amputees. A suggestion of the use of acupuncture as a method for investigation of phantom limb. Chin Med J (Engl). 1986 Mar;99(3):247-52. No Abstract. Publication Types: Case Reports PMID: 3095054 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 3. [Not relevant to Bonghan Theory] Bossy J. Morphological data concerning the acupuncture points and channel network. Acupunct Electrother Res. 1984;9(2):79-106. Through its traditional rules, the practice of acupuncture requires knowledge of the channel networks and point locations. For nearly three centuries, morphological research did not show any evidence on peripheral morphological support of the channels. Their courses appear as referred sensations, and the persistence of propogated sensations along the channels in amputees and their cessation after total section of the spinal cord implicates a neuraxial participation. The spatial sequence of the segmental centers seems to be the indispensable primary structure. Through the various centers having a topical organization, the somesthetic areas appear as the necessary structural support of the propogated sensation along the channel. Acupuncture points are less discussed as a basis of acupuncture in the West, but they do have equivalences in all medical systems. Nervous structures are necessary for acupuncture to work, and complete denervation totally suppresses the effect of the points. There is not only one type of acupuncture point but many of them, and the concomitant stimulation of multiple and clearly defined structures is necessary to obtain the acupuncture sensation, De Qi. Thus, the effect seems strictly correlated with convergence of nerve impulses on the primary centers. Lastly, accurate anatomical knowledge of the point and its correct puncture (location, direction, depth) are indispensable to get satisfactory therapeutic effects and to avoid iatrogenic incidents. Publication Types: Review PMID: 6148847 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] PS: Medline has NO references to: acup* AND bonghan Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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