Guest guest Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I will be in the UK (london area) on the weekend of 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do an intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar please let me know ASAP. Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, FNAAOM Check out the new Front Page. www. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Where is your venue being held? Cost ? Regards Arthur Doc <Doc wrote: I will be in the UK (london area) on the weekend of 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do an intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar please let me know ASAP. Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, FNAAOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the Western Societal Medicine Mind? Cosmetic Acupuncture...? What happened to real ? Peace. Ai Wei --- Arthur Hing <arthurhing wrote: > > Where is your venue being held? > Cost ? > > Regards > > Arthur > > Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > I will be in the UK (london area) on the weekend of > 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do an > intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar please let me > know ASAP. > > Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, FNAAOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Hi Ai Wei, I think it happened about a thousand years ago or more when was frequently used to combat baldness, improve sexual vigour, improve skin problems and yes improve physical and cosmetic appearance, which after all is the outward reflection of inner health. Kind regards Dermot - " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:05 PM Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > > When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the Western > Societal Medicine Mind? > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > What happened to real ? > > Peace. > > Ai Wei > > > --- Arthur Hing <arthurhing wrote: > > > > > Where is your venue being held? > > Cost ? > > > > Regards > > > > Arthur > > > > Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > > > > > I will be in the UK (london area) on the weekend of > > 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do an > > intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar please let me > > know ASAP. > > > > Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, FNAAOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Aiwei Lin <daoist_linaiwei wrote: >When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the Western Societal Medicine Mind? Cosmetic Acupuncture...? What happened to real ?< Aiwei says in a truely either/or - extremely non Yin Yang and very condecending way. Thus showing a great respect for TCM principles! Well since the technique is from the Han dynasty time it has been a long sad decline. ;p Doc BTW this is a response to a flame which i choose to answer with tongue in cheek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 HHAHA... You mean they were using CHinese Medicine to treat health, and all of a sudden the body looked cleaner, smelled fresher, and last but not least had a rejuvenating effect.... THis is obvious if one takes care of their health. By no means was it Cosmetic purposely. It was common sense. If you eat badly, you will look badly. Simple. So if people come in with dark circle under their eye, green around their mouth, etc...then one would treat them accordingly and .Whalla! No more dark circle, or green around the mouth. It is just an outcome, not a means to look " GOOD " Advertising as a Cosmetic benefit degrades it. It is a Science of Life. Ai Wei --- Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > Hi Ai Wei, > > I think it happened about a thousand years ago or > more when > was frequently used to combat baldness, improve > sexual vigour, improve skin > problems and yes improve physical and cosmetic > appearance, which after all > is the outward reflection of inner health. > > Kind regards > > Dermot > > > > - > " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > <Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:05 PM > Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > > > > > > > When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > Western > > Societal Medicine Mind? > > > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > > What happened to real ? > > > > Peace. > > > > Ai Wei > > > > > > --- Arthur Hing <arthurhing wrote: > > > > > > > > Where is your venue being held? > > > Cost ? > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Arthur > > > > > > Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be in the UK (london area) on the weekend > of > > > 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do an > > > intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar please > let me > > > know ASAP. > > > > > > Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, FNAAOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Funny stuff I agree that techniques were used to look better, but over all it is to fix the inside. In today's society, people look to the exterior for comfort, thus destroying inner quality. Knowing this and placing CHinese Medicine to help them strengthen their beliefs in Outer Appearences only takes away from . In China, people use facial cremes now. They are taking example from the Western Ways. Use to help one look better, but look better not as a means to cover up and leave. Look better as an outcome of taking care of one's health. People have come to my wife and i asking to loose weight. They say " I drink Green Tea, because I heard it helps to loose weight. " I say, " How about going on a diet? How about changing your eating habits? " People want the easy way, and if it is given to them, the quality of the over all science can be left aside. It is a concern of mine. And I have reasons to be concerned for it. Peace, Ai Wei --- Doc <Doc wrote: > > > Aiwei Lin <daoist_linaiwei wrote: > > >When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > Western > Societal Medicine Mind? > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > What happened to real ?< > > Aiwei says in a truely either/or - extremely non Yin > Yang and very condecending way. Thus showing a > great respect for TCM principles! > > Well since the technique is from the Han dynasty > time it has been a long sad decline. ;p > > Doc > BTW this is a response to a flame which i choose to > answer with tongue in cheek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Aiwei Lin wrote: > > When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the Western > Societal Medicine Mind? > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > What happened to real ? Hi Aiwei! Maybe this is an unavoidable risk inherent in cultural exchanges? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Personally I believe that the more people who experience the benefits of the better. Some will come for spiritual or emotional reasons and of course the majority will come for purely health reasons. Other people will come to it because of purely cosmetic reasons - poor skin, hairloss, rejuvenation etc. These are entirely valid reasons and for these people IS a means to look good. I don't understand why you say it isn't a means to look good, because it clearly is. Your entitled to your opinion, but I don't think what Doc does degrades at all - in fact on the contrary, it makes more approachable for some members of the public. There is always a danger of being too arrogant about . This doesn't benefit anyone. - " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:56 PM Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > > > HHAHA... You mean they were using CHinese Medicine to > treat health, and all of a sudden the body looked > cleaner, smelled fresher, and last but not least had a > rejuvenating effect.... > > THis is obvious if one takes care of their health. > By no means was it Cosmetic purposely. It was common > sense. > If you eat badly, you will look badly. Simple. So > if people come in with dark circle under their eye, > green around their mouth, etc...then one would treat > them accordingly and .Whalla! No more dark circle, or > green around the mouth. > It is just an outcome, not a means to look " GOOD " > Advertising as a Cosmetic benefit > degrades it. It is a Science of Life. > > Ai Wei > --- Dermot O'Connor <dermot > wrote: > > > > > Hi Ai Wei, > > > > I think it happened about a thousand years ago or > > more when > > was frequently used to combat baldness, improve > > sexual vigour, improve skin > > problems and yes improve physical and cosmetic > > appearance, which after all > > is the outward reflection of inner health. > > > > Kind regards > > > > Dermot > > > > > > > > - > > " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:05 PM > > Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > > Western > > > Societal Medicine Mind? > > > > > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > > > What happened to real ? > > > > > > Peace. > > > > > > Ai Wei > > > > > > > > > --- Arthur Hing <arthurhing wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Where is your venue being held? > > > > Cost ? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be in the UK (london area) on the weekend > > of > > > > 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do an > > > > intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar please > > let me > > > > know ASAP. > > > > > > > > Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, FNAAOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 TOo Arrogant??? Look at Western Medicine..Jeezz.. Using , and advertising it for anything else other than to help someone heal their body is a degredation. More people should use it , and they should use it well, but really now, let's not feed their insecurities... for is by far a more superior medicine, and hsould be treated as so. --- Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > Personally I believe that the more people who > experience the benefits of > the better. Some will come for > spiritual or emotional > reasons and of course the majority will come for > purely health reasons. > Other people will come to it because of purely > cosmetic reasons - poor skin, > hairloss, rejuvenation etc. These are entirely valid > reasons and for these > people IS a means to look good. I > don't understand why you > say it isn't a means to look good, because it > clearly is. > > Your entitled to your opinion, but I don't think > what Doc does degrades > at all - in fact on the contrary, > it makes > more approachable for some members of the public. > There is always a danger > of being too arrogant about . This > doesn't benefit anyone. > > > > - > " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > <Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:56 PM > Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > > > > > > > > > HHAHA... You mean they were using CHinese > Medicine to > > treat health, and all of a sudden the body looked > > cleaner, smelled fresher, and last but not least > had a > > rejuvenating effect.... > > > > THis is obvious if one takes care of their > health. > > By no means was it Cosmetic purposely. It was > common > > sense. > > If you eat badly, you will look badly. Simple. > So > > if people come in with dark circle under their > eye, > > green around their mouth, etc...then one would > treat > > them accordingly and .Whalla! No more dark > circle, or > > green around the mouth. > > It is just an outcome, not a means to look > " GOOD " > > Advertising as a Cosmetic benefit > > degrades it. It is a Science of Life. > > > > Ai Wei > > --- Dermot O'Connor > <dermot > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ai Wei, > > > > > > I think it happened about a thousand years ago > or > > > more when > > > was frequently used to combat baldness, improve > > > sexual vigour, improve skin > > > problems and yes improve physical and cosmetic > > > appearance, which after all > > > is the outward reflection of inner health. > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Dermot > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > > > To: > <Chinese Medicine > > > > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:05 PM > > > Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the > UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > > > Western > > > > Societal Medicine Mind? > > > > > > > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > > > > What happened to real ? > > > > > > > > Peace. > > > > > > > > Ai Wei > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Arthur Hing <arthurhing > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where is your venue being held? > > > > > Cost ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > > > Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be in the UK (london area) on the > weekend > > > of > > > > > 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do > an > > > > > intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar > please > > > let me > > > > > know ASAP. > > > > > > > > > > Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, > FNAAOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Nobody is denying that appearance is an outward relection of inner health. I doubt very much that Doc is teaching techniques to make superficial improvments to appearance without addressing the inner health of the client. Virginia Doran certainly places a large emphasis on this. I think all on this group understand well that isn't a quick superficial fix for things such as weightloss. Kind regards Dermot - " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:04 PM Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > > Funny stuff > > I agree that techniques were used to look better, > but over all it is to fix the inside. In today's > society, people look to the exterior for comfort, thus > destroying inner quality. > Knowing this and placing CHinese Medicine to help > them strengthen their beliefs in Outer Appearences > only takes away from . In China, > people use facial cremes now. They are taking example > from the Western Ways. > Use to help one look better, but > look better not as a means to cover up and leave. Look > better as an outcome of taking care of one's health. > People have come to my wife and i asking to loose > weight. They say " I drink Green Tea, because I heard > it helps to loose weight. " > I say, " How about going on a diet? How about > changing your eating habits? " > People want the easy way, and if it is given to > them, the quality of the over all science can be left > aside. It is a concern of mine. And I have reasons to > be concerned for it. > > Peace, > Ai Wei > > > --- Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > > > > Aiwei Lin <daoist_linaiwei wrote: > > > > >When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > > Western > > Societal Medicine Mind? > > > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > > What happened to real ?< > > > > Aiwei says in a truely either/or - extremely non Yin > > Yang and very condecending way. Thus showing a > > great respect for TCM principles! > > > > Well since the technique is from the Han dynasty > > time it has been a long sad decline. ;p > > > > Doc > > BTW this is a response to a flame which i choose to > > answer with tongue in cheek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Before anyone starts jumping down Doc's throat perhaps they should actually know what it is he proposes to teach. Cosmetic does not = lipstick and less wrinkles. Cosmetic is a far broader concept than what you are assuming here. Is treating Bell's palsy cosmetic? Is treating freckles, dry skin, psoriasis and acne cosmetic? These most certainly fit " cosmetic " in the broader sense of the word. Is treating overweight patients cosmetic? Yes, and it is also one of the most popular acupuncture treatments in China. ie. it is part of now whether we like it or not. Treating such " Cosmetic " conditions gives us the opportunity to educate our patients about the reasons they have these " cosmetic " difficulties and ways in which they can address them with lifestyle changes. Sure, most just want a quick fix with no effort on their part; but it is not the job of a doctor to presume all people who seek assistance with cosmetic problems are lazy people or all doctors who help them are degrading . Point of fact; many of the conditions that have a profound negative effect on a persons life are cosmetic in nature. This is especially the case in non-life threatening dermatological conditions and obesity. These are largely cosmetic, but unless addressed will result in continued suffering and disease. If an individual advertises acupuncture for weight loss and turns over patients at the rate of 100's per week with a cookbook treatment and no other interventions.........that is degrading Chinese medicine. Aiwei; is this what you assume Doc is doing? If so, how do you know this? Best Wishes, Steve On 17/11/2004, at 9:33 PM, Aiwei Lin wrote: > > > TOo Arrogant??? Look at Western Medicine..Jeezz.. > > Using , and advertising it for > anything else other than to help someone heal their > body is a degredation. > More people should use it , and they should use it > well, but really now, let's not feed their > insecurities... for is by far a more > superior medicine, and hsould be treated as so. > > > --- Dermot O'Connor <dermot > wrote: > >> >> Personally I believe that the more people who >> experience the benefits of >> the better. Some will come for >> spiritual or emotional >> reasons and of course the majority will come for >> purely health reasons. >> Other people will come to it because of purely >> cosmetic reasons - poor skin, >> hairloss, rejuvenation etc. These are entirely valid >> reasons and for these >> people IS a means to look good. I >> don't understand why you >> say it isn't a means to look good, because it >> clearly is. >> >> Your entitled to your opinion, but I don't think >> what Doc does degrades >> at all - in fact on the contrary, >> it makes >> more approachable for some members of the public. >> There is always a danger >> of being too arrogant about . This >> doesn't benefit anyone. >> >> >> >> - >> " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:56 PM >> Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> HHAHA... You mean they were using CHinese >> Medicine to >>> treat health, and all of a sudden the body looked >>> cleaner, smelled fresher, and last but not least >> had a >>> rejuvenating effect.... >>> >>> THis is obvious if one takes care of their >> health. >>> By no means was it Cosmetic purposely. It was >> common >>> sense. >>> If you eat badly, you will look badly. Simple. >> So >>> if people come in with dark circle under their >> eye, >>> green around their mouth, etc...then one would >> treat >>> them accordingly and .Whalla! No more dark >> circle, or >>> green around the mouth. >>> It is just an outcome, not a means to look >> " GOOD " >>> Advertising as a Cosmetic benefit >>> degrades it. It is a Science of Life. >>> >>> Ai Wei >>> --- Dermot O'Connor >> <dermot >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Ai Wei, >>>> >>>> I think it happened about a thousand years ago >> or >>>> more when >>>> was frequently used to combat baldness, improve >>>> sexual vigour, improve skin >>>> problems and yes improve physical and cosmetic >>>> appearance, which after all >>>> is the outward reflection of inner health. >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> >>>> Dermot >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - >>>> " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei >>>> To: >> <Chinese Medicine > >>>> Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:05 PM >>>> Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the >> UK >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the >>>> Western >>>>> Societal Medicine Mind? >>>>> >>>>> Cosmetic Acupuncture...? >>>>> What happened to real ? >>>>> >>>>> Peace. >>>>> >>>>> Ai Wei >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- Arthur Hing <arthurhing >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Where is your venue being held? >>>>>> Cost ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Arthur >>>>>> >>>>>> Doc <Doc wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I will be in the UK (london area) on the >> weekend >>>> of >>>>>> 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do >> an >>>>>> intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar >> please >>>> let me >>>>>> know ASAP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, >> FNAAOM > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Understood ~*~ --- Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > Nobody is denying that appearance is an outward > relection of inner health. > I doubt very much that Doc is teaching techniques to > make superficial > improvments to appearance without addressing the > inner health of the client. > Virginia Doran certainly places a large emphasis on > this. I think all on > this group understand well that > isn't a quick superficial > fix for things such as weightloss. > > Kind regards > > Dermot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 In all due respect, I am not assuming. If a patient develops an ill appearance due to their sickness, treat the sickness, the root of the problem. Illness in looking better is actual...but not from sickness. An ill appearance from sickness must be fixed by treating the sickness. My wife and I helped patience with psoriasis...not by treating their skin, but by treating the problem...thus no more skin problems. (If an individual advertises acupuncture for weight loss and turns over patients at the rate of 100's per week with a cookbook treatment and no other interventions.........that is degrading Chinese medicine.) I do agree on this with you. In modern day China, treating the superficial is popular because they are learning that from the West. I agree with you on this as well. But the sure fire way to get rid of fat....stop eating terrible things, and get herbal treatment. Peace, Ai Wei --- Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: > Before anyone starts jumping down Doc's throat > perhaps they should > actually know what it is he proposes to teach. > Cosmetic does not = > lipstick and less wrinkles. Cosmetic is a far > broader concept than what > you are assuming here. Is treating Bell's palsy > cosmetic? Is treating > freckles, dry skin, psoriasis and acne cosmetic? > These most certainly > fit " cosmetic " in the broader sense of the word. Is > treating overweight > patients cosmetic? Yes, and it is also one of the > most popular > acupuncture treatments in China. ie. it is part of > now > whether we like it or not. > > Treating such " Cosmetic " conditions gives us the > opportunity to educate > our patients about the reasons they have these > " cosmetic " difficulties > and ways in which they can address them with > lifestyle changes. Sure, > most just want a quick fix with no effort on their > part; but it is not > the job of a doctor to presume all people who seek > assistance with > cosmetic problems are lazy people or all doctors who > help them are > degrading . > > Point of fact; many of the conditions that have a > profound negative > effect on a persons life are cosmetic in nature. > This is especially the > case in non-life threatening dermatological > conditions and obesity. > These are largely cosmetic, but unless addressed > will result in > continued suffering and disease. > > If an individual advertises acupuncture for weight > loss and turns over > patients at the rate of 100's per week with a > cookbook treatment and no > other interventions.........that is degrading > Chinese medicine. > > Aiwei; is this what you assume Doc is doing? If so, > how do you know > this? > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > > > On 17/11/2004, at 9:33 PM, Aiwei Lin wrote: > > > > > > > TOo Arrogant??? Look at Western Medicine..Jeezz.. > > > > Using , and advertising it for > > anything else other than to help someone heal > their > > body is a degredation. > > More people should use it , and they should use > it > > well, but really now, let's not feed their > > insecurities... for is by far a > more > > superior medicine, and hsould be treated as so. > > > > > > --- Dermot O'Connor > <dermot > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Personally I believe that the more people who > >> experience the benefits of > >> the better. Some will come for > >> spiritual or emotional > >> reasons and of course the majority will come for > >> purely health reasons. > >> Other people will come to it because of purely > >> cosmetic reasons - poor skin, > >> hairloss, rejuvenation etc. These are entirely > valid > >> reasons and for these > >> people IS a means to look good. > I > >> don't understand why you > >> say it isn't a means to look good, because it > >> clearly is. > >> > >> Your entitled to your opinion, but I don't think > >> what Doc does degrades > >> at all - in fact on the > contrary, > >> it makes > >> more approachable for some members of the public. > >> There is always a danger > >> of being too arrogant about . > This > >> doesn't benefit anyone. > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > >> To: > <Chinese Medicine > > >> Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:56 PM > >> Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> HHAHA... You mean they were using CHinese > >> Medicine to > >>> treat health, and all of a sudden the body > looked > >>> cleaner, smelled fresher, and last but not least > >> had a > >>> rejuvenating effect.... > >>> > >>> THis is obvious if one takes care of their > >> health. > >>> By no means was it Cosmetic purposely. It was > >> common > >>> sense. > >>> If you eat badly, you will look badly. > Simple. > >> So > >>> if people come in with dark circle under their > >> eye, > >>> green around their mouth, etc...then one would > >> treat > >>> them accordingly and .Whalla! No more dark > >> circle, or > >>> green around the mouth. > >>> It is just an outcome, not a means to look > >> " GOOD " > >>> Advertising as a Cosmetic > benefit > >>> degrades it. It is a Science of Life. > >>> > >>> Ai Wei > >>> --- Dermot O'Connor > >> <dermot > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi Ai Wei, > >>>> > >>>> I think it happened about a thousand years ago > >> or > >>>> more when > >>>> was frequently used to combat baldness, improve > >>>> sexual vigour, improve skin > >>>> problems and yes improve physical and cosmetic > >>>> appearance, which after all > >>>> is the outward reflection of inner health. > >>>> > >>>> Kind regards > >>>> > >>>> Dermot > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - > >>>> " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > >>>> To: > >> <Chinese Medicine > > >>>> Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:05 PM > >>>> Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the > >> UK > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > >>>> Western > >>>>> Societal Medicine Mind? > >>>>> > >>>>> Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > >>>>> What happened to real ? > >>>>> > >>>>> Peace. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ai Wei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Both points of view have merit. My feeling on this issue is the following: 1) Doc has the right to promote his seminar the way he wishes, to teach what he wishes, to anyone who is interested. 2) Cosmetic acupuncture is far superior to expensive and dangerous surgery 3) By getting people into our environment, i.e. Chinese medical offices, we open them up in the future to looking more deeply at their own health. I call this the 'open door' policy. We need to attract new people to our medicine, otherwise no growth. We can do this without compromising our principles. Although Aiwei is correct in principle, Chinese medicine was the medicine of Chinese society in the past, and could fix both the inside and the outside. This is still true today, but a majority of people don't know that this is possible. When people come to us for symptomatic or superficial reasons, we have a chance to lead them inwards to a deeper understanding of health. A majority of those people may still not get it, but if we reach some of them, we've turned a corner. On Nov 16, 2004, at 3:04 PM, Aiwei Lin wrote: > > Funny stuff > > I agree that techniques were used to look better, > but over all it is to fix the inside. In today's > society, people look to the exterior for comfort, thus > destroying inner quality. > Knowing this and placing CHinese Medicine to help > them strengthen their beliefs in Outer Appearences > only takes away from . In China, > people use facial cremes now. They are taking example > from the Western Ways. > Use to help one look better, but > look better not as a means to cover up and leave. Look > better as an outcome of taking care of one's health. > People have come to my wife and i asking to loose > weight. They say " I drink Green Tea, because I heard > it helps to loose weight. " > I say, " How about going on a diet? How about > changing your eating habits? " > People want the easy way, and if it is given to > them, the quality of the over all science can be left > aside. It is a concern of mine. And I have reasons to > be concerned for it. > > Peace, > Ai Wei > > > --- Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > > > > Aiwei Lin <daoist_linaiwei wrote: > > > > >When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > > Western > > Societal Medicine Mind? > > > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > > What happened to real ?< > > > > Aiwei says in a truely either/or - extremely non Yin > > Yang and very condecending way. Thus showing a > > great respect for TCM principles! > > > > Well since the technique is from the Han dynasty > > time it has been a long sad decline. ;p > > > > Doc > > BTW this is a response to a flame which i choose to > > answer with tongue in cheek > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 A survey of my former students shows that about 85% of the patients who come in for cosmetic Acupuncture come back for other non cosmetic work. Aiwei Lin <daoist_linaiwei wrote: TOo Arrogant??? Look at Western Medicine..Jeezz.. Using , and advertising it for anything else other than to help someone heal their body is a degredation. More people should use it , and they should use it well, but really now, let's not feed their insecurities... for is by far a more superior medicine, and hsould be treated as so. --- Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: > > Personally I believe that the more people who > experience the benefits of > the better. Some will come for > spiritual or emotional > reasons and of course the majority will come for > purely health reasons. > Other people will come to it because of purely > cosmetic reasons - poor skin, > hairloss, rejuvenation etc. These are entirely valid > reasons and for these > people IS a means to look good. I > don't understand why you > say it isn't a means to look good, because it > clearly is. > > Your entitled to your opinion, but I don't think > what Doc does degrades > at all - in fact on the contrary, > it makes > more approachable for some members of the public. > There is always a danger > of being too arrogant about . This > doesn't benefit anyone. > > > > - > " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > <Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:56 PM > Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > > > > > > > > > HHAHA... You mean they were using CHinese > Medicine to > > treat health, and all of a sudden the body looked > > cleaner, smelled fresher, and last but not least > had a > > rejuvenating effect.... > > > > THis is obvious if one takes care of their > health. > > By no means was it Cosmetic purposely. It was > common > > sense. > > If you eat badly, you will look badly. Simple. > So > > if people come in with dark circle under their > eye, > > green around their mouth, etc...then one would > treat > > them accordingly and .Whalla! No more dark > circle, or > > green around the mouth. > > It is just an outcome, not a means to look > " GOOD " > > Advertising as a Cosmetic benefit > > degrades it. It is a Science of Life. > > > > Ai Wei > > --- Dermot O'Connor > <dermot > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ai Wei, > > > > > > I think it happened about a thousand years ago > or > > > more when > > > was frequently used to combat baldness, improve > > > sexual vigour, improve skin > > > problems and yes improve physical and cosmetic > > > appearance, which after all > > > is the outward reflection of inner health. > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Dermot > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > " Aiwei Lin " <daoist_linaiwei > > > To: > <Chinese Medicine > > > > Tuesday, November 16, 2004 12:05 PM > > > Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the > UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When did the Chinese Medical Mind become the > > > Western > > > > Societal Medicine Mind? > > > > > > > > Cosmetic Acupuncture...? > > > > What happened to real ? > > > > > > > > Peace. > > > > > > > > Ai Wei > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Arthur Hing <arthurhing > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where is your venue being held? > > > > > Cost ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > > > Doc <Doc wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be in the UK (london area) on the > weekend > > > of > > > > > 11-12 Dec. if any UK folk would like to do > an > > > > > intensive Cosmetic Acupuncture seminar > please > > > let me > > > > > know ASAP. > > > > > > > > > > Dr R S Doc rosen OMD (China) Dipl Ac/CH, > FNAAOM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 On 18/11/2004, at 2:16 AM, Aiwei Lin wrote: > > > > In all due respect, I am not assuming. > > If a patient develops an ill appearance due to their > sickness, treat the sickness, the root of the problem. > Illness in looking better is actual...but not from > sickness. > An ill appearance from sickness must be fixed by > treating the sickness. My wife and I helped patience > with psoriasis...not by treating their skin, but by > treating the problem...thus no more skin problems. > > (If an individual advertises acupuncture for weight > loss and turns over > patients at the rate of 100's per week with a > cookbook treatment and no > other interventions.........that is degrading > Chinese medicine.) > > I do agree on this with you. > > In modern day China, treating the superficial is > popular because they are learning that from the West. > I agree with you on this as well. > You are assuming that he is just treating the biao with no consideration for the ben unless you know his methods.....this is my point. You are missing the point altogether here. Nobody has said we are not addressing the sickness and just treating the appearance. What we are saying is that many patients come to us initially because of the affect a certain cosmetic appearance is having on their lives. So yes, the patients are coming to have the biao treated, and as doctors we must consider this but also it gives us the opportunity to address the ben and educate our patients. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I really don't like your tone of some universal Chinese superiority on this topic and the tuina/shiatsu one. Treating the superficial is NOT what the Chinese learned from the west. We did not give you concubines who's life depended on external beauty and we did not give you the idea of bound feet. Sure, modern advertising, magazines and fashion have influenced modern china and WHAT is considered beautiful, but this is different from the pursuit of beauty at all which is a universal human characteristic and one in which the Chinese have always placed a high value. I hope you can refrain from claims of everything of value being of Chinese origin and everything dubious being a " foreign influence " . Best Wishes, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 You don't have to like the fact that CHinese Medicine cures people and Western Medicine doesn't. is the Science of life. Plain and Simple, whether you like it or not. There are many things that come from China that are not well, but now most of that which is not well is much of the Western Influence. I know...I live in China. Unfortunetly, Hospitals in China are using Western Medicine, and forgetting that will work. Why? because of the cultural revolution. Many lost their most sacred texts on health and well being... now many are researching it all over again. Using the words " Cosmetic Acupuncture " already give a wrong impression, but people will not understand that. I am very blunt when I speak , and write. I do not speak diplomatically about certain things. So every thought, and word is right to the point. Peace, Ai Wei --- Steven Slater <laozhongyi wrote: > > On 18/11/2004, at 2:16 AM, Aiwei Lin wrote: > > > > > > > > > In all due respect, I am not assuming. > > > > If a patient develops an ill appearance due to > their > > sickness, treat the sickness, the root of the > problem. > > Illness in looking better is actual...but not from > > sickness. > > An ill appearance from sickness must be fixed > by > > treating the sickness. My wife and I helped > patience > > with psoriasis...not by treating their skin, but > by > > treating the problem...thus no more skin problems. > > > > (If an individual advertises acupuncture for > weight > > loss and turns over > > patients at the rate of 100's per week with a > > cookbook treatment and no > > other interventions.........that is degrading > > Chinese medicine.) > > > > I do agree on this with you. > > > > In modern day China, treating the superficial is > > popular because they are learning that from the > West. > > I agree with you on this as well. > > > > You are assuming that he is just treating the biao > with no > consideration for the ben unless you know his > methods.....this is my > point. You are missing the point altogether here. > Nobody has said we > are not addressing the sickness and just treating > the appearance. What > we are saying is that many patients come to us > initially because of the > affect a certain cosmetic appearance is having on > their lives. So yes, > the patients are coming to have the biao treated, > and as doctors we > must consider this but also it gives us the > opportunity to address the > ben and educate our patients. Don't throw the baby > out with the > bathwater. > > I really don't like your tone of some universal > Chinese superiority on > this topic and the tuina/shiatsu one. Treating the > superficial is NOT > what the Chinese learned from the west. We did not > give you concubines > who's life depended on external beauty and we did > not give you the idea > of bound feet. Sure, modern advertising, magazines > and fashion have > influenced modern china and WHAT is considered > beautiful, but this is > different from the pursuit of beauty at all which is > a universal human > characteristic and one in which the Chinese have > always placed a high > value. > > I hope you can refrain from claims of everything of > value being of > Chinese origin and everything dubious being a > " foreign influence " . > > Best Wishes, > > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 I agree heartily with what you've said Z'ev. I currently have a similar view. I see this question about cosmetic AP as being part of a bigger issue. In we often have to decide whether to treat the root and/or symptoms of disease - and the patient him- or herself often can only understand the symptoms. I often treat both root and symptoms, partly out of empathy for the patient, and partly because I want them to come back (which helps both my cashflow and also their genuine health). Now, I do accept that on strongly-held philosophical grounds some people may believe that one should only treat the internal and ignore the external (and therefore even go as far as abstaining from make-up, bathing, washing their hair, etc). I guess this is what some Taoist do? However, on philosophical grounds I think one could also argue that the internal is yin, the external (complexion etc) is yang, and we should balance our efforts between both. Beauty is not unethical, neither is the desire to be beautiful or loved. Whatever your personal view on the best place of balance here I think that this area is a matter for personal choice and an 'open door policy' (as you put it) is the best way to incourage dialogue and help us all to grow. All the best David Gordon CMIR, MBRCP(Amma), DCHA, Dip Tuina, Dip Tao-Yin, Postgrad Dip Chinese wrote:- ------------- Message: 2 Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:39:34 -0800 " " <zrosenbe Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK Both points of view have merit. My feeling on this issue is the following: 1) Doc has the right to promote his seminar the way he wishes, to teach what he wishes, to anyone who is interested. 2) Cosmetic acupuncture is far superior to expensive and dangerous surgery 3) By getting people into our environment, i.e. Chinese medical offices, we open them up in the future to looking more deeply at their own health. I call this the 'open door' policy. We need to attract new people to our medicine, otherwise no growth. We can do this without compromising our principles. Although Aiwei is correct in principle, Chinese medicine was the medicine of Chinese society in the past, and could fix both the inside and the outside. This is still true today, but a majority of people don't know that this is possible. When people come to us for symptomatic or superficial reasons, we have a chance to lead them inwards to a deeper understanding of health. A majority of those people may still not get it, but if we reach some of them, we've turned a corner. --------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Aiwei Lin 11/18/04 17:03:38 Chinese Medicine Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK is the Science of life. Plain and Simple, whether you like it or not. There are many things that come from China that are not well, but now most of that which is not well is much of the Western Influence. I know...I live in China. Unfortunetly, Hospitals in China are using Western Medicine, and forgetting that will work. Why? because of the cultural revolution. Many lost their most sacred texts on health and well being... now many are researching it all over again. (Tom): I also live in China. And I don't think that the West can be blamed for most of the problems in China. I have never seen a greater material drive ever in another country. Going to a bank or post-office is a fight, since everyone is trying to jump a non-existing queue. Dirty streets in certain areas are just habits, and I don't think that that necessarily is a western habit. It is my personal opinion that many of these problems are caused by a lack of education, mainly in the older generation and the countryside- another thing not to be blamed upon the West. I love China, the hospitality, the food, the Tai Ji,....and the medicine. I think that most of the people choose Western medicine because it DOES work in many cases. Just not many people care about side-effects, or natural remedies- they prefer quick solutions. Just like many people in the West. But these are always personal decisions, although sometimes regulated by the media and/or promoted by governments. One more question: which sacred texts do you think were lost in the Cultural Revolution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 I don't want my patience coming back. If they do, I am not a good doctor. I agree, sometimes the symptoms, pain, is too much for the patient to handle, and thus treating both is best instead of just treating the symptom or the root. Daoists donot refrain from keeping themselves clean, lol. To be free from disease is to be clear both internally and externally. Showering, bathing, etc, does not have to be every day, because, for one, you drain away your energy if you wash under running water too much, too long. If you shower or bathe on an empty stomach, you loose energy as well. I hope a good discussion can be encouraged by these posts. Peace, Ai Wei --- David Gordon <junhengclinic wrote: > > I agree heartily with what you've said Z'ev. I > currently have a similar view. > > I see this question about cosmetic AP as being > part of a bigger issue. In we > often have to decide whether to treat the root > and/or symptoms of disease - and the patient him- > or herself often can only understand the > symptoms. I often treat both root and symptoms, > partly out of empathy for the patient, and partly > because I want them to come back (which helps > both my cashflow and also their genuine > health). > > Now, I do accept that on strongly-held > philosophical grounds some people may believe > that one should only treat the internal and > ignore the external (and therefore even go as far > as abstaining from make-up, bathing, washing > their hair, etc). I guess this is what some > Taoist do? > > However, on philosophical grounds I think one > could also argue that the internal is yin, the > external (complexion etc) is yang, and we should > balance our efforts between both. Beauty is not > unethical, neither is the desire to be beautiful > or loved. > > Whatever your personal view on the best place of > balance here I think that this area is a matter > for personal choice and an 'open door policy' (as > you put it) is the best way to incourage dialogue > and help us all to grow. > > All the best > > David Gordon > CMIR, MBRCP(Amma), DCHA, Dip Tuina, Dip Tao-Yin, > Postgrad Dip Chinese > > > wrote:- > ------------- > Message: 2 > Wed, 17 Nov 2004 07:39:34 -0800 > " " <zrosenbe > Re: Cosmetic Acupuncture in the UK > > Both points of view have merit. > > My feeling on this issue is the following: > > 1) Doc has the right to promote his seminar the > way he wishes, to teach > what he wishes, to anyone who is interested. > > 2) Cosmetic acupuncture is far superior to > expensive and dangerous > surgery > > 3) By getting people into our environment, i.e. > Chinese medical offices, we open them up in the > future to looking more deeply at their own > health. I call this the 'open door' policy. > > We need to attract new people to our medicine, > otherwise no growth. We can do this without > compromising our principles. > > Although Aiwei is correct in principle, Chinese > medicine was the medicine of Chinese society in > the past, and could fix both the inside > and the outside. This is still true today, but a > majority of people don't know that this is > possible. When people come to us for > symptomatic or superficial reasons, we have a > chance to lead them inwards to a deeper > understanding of health. A majority of those > people may still not get it, but if we reach some > of them, we've turned a corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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