Guest guest Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Attilio, I would like to pose a question as a part of the information that I am collecting for a textbook on integration. I wish to know what practitioners believe about qi and meridians. Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are actual structures? Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be akin to qi that flows through these? If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? Or do practitioners just think that these are all just metaphors? And lastly, did your school encourage one theory of another? I hope we can begin a dialogue on what constitutes jing-luo and discuss some of the research that has been published. This would help me in my research. Thanks again. Sincerely, Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Hi Mike, Sure, ask away, although you may want to create a poll, that way you'll get a clear, concise answer. Attilio mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] 13 November 2004 13:42 Chinese Medicine Re: TCM theory Attilio, I would like to pose a question as a part of the information that I am collecting for a textbook on integration. I wish to know what practitioners believe about qi and meridians. Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are actual structures? Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be akin to qi that flows through these? If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? Or do practitioners just think that these are all just metaphors? And lastly, did your school encourage one theory of another? I hope we can begin a dialogue on what constitutes jing-luo and discuss some of the research that has been published. This would help me in my research. Thanks again. Sincerely, Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Real as shoelaces. But, much like love, you have to fall into it to feel into it. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, November 13, 2004 6:42 AM Re: TCM theory > > > > Attilio, > > I would like to pose a question as a part of the information that I am > collecting for a textbook on integration. I wish to know what > practitioners believe about qi and meridians. > > Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are > actual structures? > > Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be > akin to qi that flows through these? > If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Hi Mike, My understanding of the dynamics of qi in general and the jing-luo system in particular is based on Taoist philosophy. In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu stressed the value of emptiness when he stated that while 36 spokes make a wheel, it is the empty hub in the center that allows it to be used and while one may mold clay into a vessel, it is the emptiness created that gives a vessel its value, etc. He ends this teaching by saying " Thus, what we have may be something substantial, but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " There is also a wonderful teaching by Chuang Tzu about a butcher that demonstrates mastery in butchering oxen. Explaining his skill he states that the animal has empty spaces around the joints and that he just inserts that which has no thickness (knife blade) into the empty spaces and the pieces fall away. Later, in this same book, there is a wonderful line " The body is a cavity of hollows arranged in layers " (translation by Hua-Ching Ni). I believe qi flows throughout the empty spaces within nature, including the human body. Some scientists make a powerful argument that many of the earth's most important features are empty spaces; fissures through which gas, water, and oil flow, the joints of the tectonic plates, etc. Consider a sponge; If one pours water into a dry sponge, the water will find its way out by following the path of least resistance via smaller and larger channels of space throughout the sponge. The human body is like a sponge - it has channels of spaces made up of the walls of surrounding structures. Thus, one might say the channels of the jing-lou are not themselves structures but are formed by the structures of surrounding tissues. When one considers that even the most dense tissues are riddled with empty space - indeed every atom is mostly empty space - that leaves a vast universe of nothingness for qi to flow. When it comes to the structures that comprise the human frame then, I would echo Tao Tzu; " Thus, what we have may be substantial but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " Hope this helps - Matt Bauer - mike Bowser Chinese Medicine Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:42 AM Re: TCM theory Attilio, I would like to pose a question as a part of the information that I am collecting for a textbook on integration. I wish to know what practitioners believe about qi and meridians. Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are actual structures? Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be akin to qi that flows through these? If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? Or do practitioners just think that these are all just metaphors? And lastly, did your school encourage one theory of another? I hope we can begin a dialogue on what constitutes jing-luo and discuss some of the research that has been published. This would help me in my research. Thanks again. Sincerely, Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Hi Matt, As usual you have given me a great deal of food for thought here. However, may I be so bold as to suggest that perhaps the substantial is equally important as the emptiness, and that one relies on the other just like yin and yang. I've been trying to think about what is yin and what is yang in this framework, and I could make a good argument for either one. Of course, we think of yin as being more " substantial " , so perhaps Lao Tzu was having a weak moment when he suggested the emptiness (yang?) was more important than the substantial (Yin?)....perhaps a sexist moment? :0 Dare I make such a suggestion?! Thank you. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > My understanding of the dynamics of qi in general and the jing-luo system in particular is based on Taoist philosophy. In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu stressed the value of emptiness when he stated that while 36 spokes make a wheel, it is the empty hub in the center that allows it to be used and while one may mold clay into a vessel, it is the emptiness created that gives a vessel its value, etc. He ends this teaching by saying " Thus, what we have may be something substantial, but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " There is also a wonderful teaching by Chuang Tzu about a butcher that demonstrates mastery in butchering oxen. Explaining his skill he states that the animal has empty spaces around the joints and that he just inserts that which has no thickness (knife blade) into the empty spaces and the pieces fall away. Later, in this same book, there is a wonderful line " The body is a cavity of hollows arranged in layers " (translation by Hua-Ching Ni). > > I believe qi flows throughout the empty spaces within nature, including the human body. Some scientists make a powerful argument that many of the earth's most important features are empty spaces; fissures through which gas, water, and oil flow, the joints of the tectonic plates, etc. Consider a sponge; If one pours water into a dry sponge, the water will find its way out by following the path of least resistance via smaller and larger channels of space throughout the sponge. The human body is like a sponge - it has channels of spaces made up of the walls of surrounding structures. Thus, one might say the channels of the jing-lou are not themselves structures but are formed by the structures of surrounding tissues. When one considers that even the most dense tissues are riddled with empty space - indeed every atom is mostly empty space - that leaves a vast universe of nothingness for qi to flow. When it comes to the structures that comprise the human frame then, I would echo Tao Tzu; " Thus, what we have may be substantial but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " Hope this helps - Matt Bauer > > - > mike Bowser > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:42 AM > Re: TCM theory > > > > > Attilio, > > I would like to pose a question as a part of the information that I am > collecting for a textbook on integration. I wish to know what > practitioners believe about qi and meridians. > > Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are > actual structures? > > Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be > akin to qi that flows through these? > If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? > > Or do practitioners just think that these are all just metaphors? > > And lastly, did your school encourage one theory of another? > > I hope we can begin a dialogue on what constitutes jing-luo and discuss some > of the research that has been published. This would help me in my research. > Thanks again. > > Sincerely, > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 Matt Appreciate the quotes and stories. For at least the last several years I have been in various groups as Phil can attest.... working to expand the understanding that 'qi' is very nice and no doubt very real BUT 'Jin-Ye' is structurally and sensorially more available. Jin-Ye and Xue have the same source and some aspect are interchangeable directly through the vascular system (blood vessels) and in both direction most likely as plasma or a sol-gel core aspect. And certainly a liquid. Wei, Qi, Xue and Jin-Ye......ALL travel through San Jiao. And here San Jiao in its most global aspect means all empty spaces in the body whether it be inside organs, through organs, through blood vessels, through lymph vessels or interstitially (around muscles, bones, organs, vessels etc). It is correct to talk about qi travelling through the empty spaces but what about Jin-Ye? Coupled with the fact that ALL acupuncture points are either between 2 muscles or a muscle and bone.....liquids (Jin-Ye) travel there.....as in the sponge example or the earth example. Why is it important to address Jin-Ye? Because comparatively speakin git is the Yin aspect which acupuncture needles have only an indirect effect on. My clinical focus has been on BaGuaFa which addresses not only the Yin aspect or as Steve Clavey speaks about the Fluid Physiology and Fluid Pathology but also effects the nerve, vascular and lymph systems. The use of acupuncture needles has its time, place and function as no doubt moxa does....but we have been missing substantial opportunities to address Yin imbalances more DIRECTLY. Mike......the jing-lou along with other channels such as in tendio-muscle meridians.......ALL have been created in part by this labrynth (pathway-channel) made up by the proximity of more solid structures (bones, muscles, organs) which enable Wei, Qi, Xue and Jin-Ye to travel through the empty spaces (San Jiao). Saying it from a structural standpoint.....at the same time interstitial fluid travels through those areas of proximities between muscles, bones, organs, over them, around them, under them are the vascular system, lymph system and nerve system. Richard In a message dated 11/16/2004 6:47:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, acu.guy writes: Hi Mike, My understanding of the dynamics of qi in general and the jing-luo system in particular is based on Taoist philosophy. In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu stressed the value of emptiness when he stated that while 36 spokes make a wheel, it is the empty hub in the center that allows it to be used and while one may mold clay into a vessel, it is the emptiness created that gives a vessel its value, etc. He ends this teaching by saying " Thus, what we have may be something substantial, but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " There is also a wonderful teaching by Chuang Tzu about a butcher that demonstrates mastery in butchering oxen. Explaining his skill he states that the animal has empty spaces around the joints and that he just inserts that which has no thickness (knife blade) into the empty spaces and the pieces fall away. Later, in this same book, there is a wonderful line " The body is a cavity of hollows arranged in layers " (translation by Hua-Ching Ni). I believe qi flows throughout the empty spaces within nature, including the human body. Some scientists make a powerful argument that many of the earth's most important features are empty spaces; fissures through which gas, water, and oil flow, the joints of the tectonic plates, etc. Consider a sponge; If one pours water into a dry sponge, the water will find its way out by following the path of least resistance via smaller and larger channels of space throughout the sponge. The human body is like a sponge - it has channels of spaces made up of the walls of surrounding structures. Thus, one might say the channels of the jing-lou are not themselves structures but are formed by the structures of surrounding tissues. When one considers that even the most dense tissues are riddled with empty space - indeed every atom is mostly empty space - that leaves a vast universe of nothingness for qi to flow. When it comes to the structures that comprise the human frame then, I would echo Tao Tzu; " Thus, what we have may be substantial but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " Hope this helps - Matt Bauer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Hello Laura, If you re-read what I quoted from Lao Tzu, you will see he never mentioned that the substantial was less important than the insubstantial. He was pointing out that the functional aspects of the substantial is traced to the insubstantial. Everything in Taoism is about balance. Even by Lao Tzu's time (some 500 years B.C.) people were focusing more on the material/physical and less on the immaterial/spiritual. When Lao Tzu emphasized the value of emptiness, he was helping to correct this imbalance just as TCM doctors will discuss the value of cooling foods to an overheated patient. This is not to imply that one opposite is more valuable then the other. And it most certainly has nothing to do with gender. I have noticed some have a misunderstanding when they equate male with yang and female with yin. That designation only applies to gender as a singular subject. There are two genders. Just because we designate male as yang and female as yin, this does not at all mean that other yin/yang categorizations - such as substantial/insubstantial - carry with them any implications of gender. The lists of yin/yang categorizations you see in books are only to be read horizontally - not vertically. Matt - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:29 PM Re: TCM theory Hi Matt, As usual you have given me a great deal of food for thought here. However, may I be so bold as to suggest that perhaps the substantial is equally important as the emptiness, and that one relies on the other just like yin and yang. I've been trying to think about what is yin and what is yang in this framework, and I could make a good argument for either one. Of course, we think of yin as being more " substantial " , so perhaps Lao Tzu was having a weak moment when he suggested the emptiness (yang?) was more important than the substantial (Yin?)....perhaps a sexist moment? :0 Dare I make such a suggestion?! Thank you. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > My understanding of the dynamics of qi in general and the jing-luo system in particular is based on Taoist philosophy. In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu stressed the value of emptiness when he stated that while 36 spokes make a wheel, it is the empty hub in the center that allows it to be used and while one may mold clay into a vessel, it is the emptiness created that gives a vessel its value, etc. He ends this teaching by saying " Thus, what we have may be something substantial, but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " There is also a wonderful teaching by Chuang Tzu about a butcher that demonstrates mastery in butchering oxen. Explaining his skill he states that the animal has empty spaces around the joints and that he just inserts that which has no thickness (knife blade) into the empty spaces and the pieces fall away. Later, in this same book, there is a wonderful line " The body is a cavity of hollows arranged in layers " (translation by Hua-Ching Ni). > > I believe qi flows throughout the empty spaces within nature, including the human body. Some scientists make a powerful argument that many of the earth's most important features are empty spaces; fissures through which gas, water, and oil flow, the joints of the tectonic plates, etc. Consider a sponge; If one pours water into a dry sponge, the water will find its way out by following the path of least resistance via smaller and larger channels of space throughout the sponge. The human body is like a sponge - it has channels of spaces made up of the walls of surrounding structures. Thus, one might say the channels of the jing-lou are not themselves structures but are formed by the structures of surrounding tissues. When one considers that even the most dense tissues are riddled with empty space - indeed every atom is mostly empty space - that leaves a vast universe of nothingness for qi to flow. When it comes to the structures that comprise the human frame then, I would echo Tao Tzu; " Thus, what we have may be substantial but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " Hope this helps - Matt Bauer > > - > mike Bowser > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:42 AM > Re: TCM theory > > > > > Attilio, > > I would like to pose a question as a part of the information that I am > collecting for a textbook on integration. I wish to know what > practitioners believe about qi and meridians. > > Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are > actual structures? > > Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be > akin to qi that flows through these? > If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? > > Or do practitioners just think that these are all just metaphors? > > And lastly, did your school encourage one theory of another? > > I hope we can begin a dialogue on what constitutes jing-luo and discuss some > of the research that has been published. This would help me in my research. > Thanks again. > > Sincerely, > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Hi Matt---I really need to learn that my sense of humor just doesn't come through via the written word. I was really just trying to be funny, actually. Pretty much the only serious sentence in my post was when I said that as usual you have given me food for thought! I am always amazed by your ability to put ideas together and convey them in writing. Clearly I need work on this at least in the area of humorour writing because I frequently am taken seriously when I'm kidding!! ARGH! Sorry for the confusion! Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hello Laura, > > If you re-read what I quoted from Lao Tzu, you will see he never mentioned that the substantial was less important than the insubstantial. He was pointing out that the functional aspects of the substantial is traced to the insubstantial. Everything in Taoism is about balance. Even by Lao Tzu's time (some 500 years B.C.) people were focusing more on the material/physical and less on the immaterial/spiritual. When Lao Tzu emphasized the value of emptiness, he was helping to correct this imbalance just as TCM doctors will discuss the value of cooling foods to an overheated patient. This is not to imply that one opposite is more valuable then the other. And it most certainly has nothing to do with gender. I have noticed some have a misunderstanding when they equate male with yang and female with yin. That designation only applies to gender as a singular subject. There are two genders. Just because we designate male as yang and female as yin, this does not at all mean that other yin/yang categorizations - such as substantial/insubstantial - carry with them any implications of gender. The lists of yin/yang categorizations you see in books are only to be read horizontally - not vertically. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Hi Matt So what you are trying to say is yang and yang is often taken so literally when it should always be used subjectively. This is the problem alot of westerns have such a limited understanding of TCM that they often fill the gaps them selves and jump to conclusions. This is not a critism it just shows the actual differculty in grasping a subject from a differnt culture that is often explained with Chinese terms that often have no equal term in english. I remember one person once told me a western TCM doctor told him if your craving salt eat sugar, or simply just eat the opposite of what your craving. This is a very good example of partial knowledge leading to bad wrong conclusions.To a well educated person would realize you often crave things because your body needs it which in turn could correct the imbalance. Regards Manu Regards Manu Matt Bauer <acu.guy wrote: Hello Laura, If you re-read what I quoted from Lao Tzu, you will see he never mentioned that the substantial was less important than the insubstantial. He was pointing out that the functional aspects of the substantial is traced to the insubstantial. Everything in Taoism is about balance. Even by Lao Tzu's time (some 500 years B.C.) people were focusing more on the material/physical and less on the immaterial/spiritual. When Lao Tzu emphasized the value of emptiness, he was helping to correct this imbalance just as TCM doctors will discuss the value of cooling foods to an overheated patient. This is not to imply that one opposite is more valuable then the other. And it most certainly has nothing to do with gender. I have noticed some have a misunderstanding when they equate male with yang and female with yin. That designation only applies to gender as a singular subject. There are two genders. Just because we designate male as yang and female as yin, this does not at all mean that other yin/yang categorizations - such as substantial/insubstantial - carry with them any implications of gender. The lists of yin/yang categorizations you see in books are only to be read horizontally - not vertically. Matt - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:29 PM Re: TCM theory Hi Matt, As usual you have given me a great deal of food for thought here. However, may I be so bold as to suggest that perhaps the substantial is equally important as the emptiness, and that one relies on the other just like yin and yang. I've been trying to think about what is yin and what is yang in this framework, and I could make a good argument for either one. Of course, we think of yin as being more " substantial " , so perhaps Lao Tzu was having a weak moment when he suggested the emptiness (yang?) was more important than the substantial (Yin?)....perhaps a sexist moment? :0 Dare I make such a suggestion?! Thank you. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hi Mike, > > My understanding of the dynamics of qi in general and the jing-luo system in particular is based on Taoist philosophy. In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu stressed the value of emptiness when he stated that while 36 spokes make a wheel, it is the empty hub in the center that allows it to be used and while one may mold clay into a vessel, it is the emptiness created that gives a vessel its value, etc. He ends this teaching by saying " Thus, what we have may be something substantial, but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " There is also a wonderful teaching by Chuang Tzu about a butcher that demonstrates mastery in butchering oxen. Explaining his skill he states that the animal has empty spaces around the joints and that he just inserts that which has no thickness (knife blade) into the empty spaces and the pieces fall away. Later, in this same book, there is a wonderful line " The body is a cavity of hollows arranged in layers " (translation by Hua-Ching Ni). > > I believe qi flows throughout the empty spaces within nature, including the human body. Some scientists make a powerful argument that many of the earth's most important features are empty spaces; fissures through which gas, water, and oil flow, the joints of the tectonic plates, etc. Consider a sponge; If one pours water into a dry sponge, the water will find its way out by following the path of least resistance via smaller and larger channels of space throughout the sponge. The human body is like a sponge - it has channels of spaces made up of the walls of surrounding structures. Thus, one might say the channels of the jing-lou are not themselves structures but are formed by the structures of surrounding tissues. When one considers that even the most dense tissues are riddled with empty space - indeed every atom is mostly empty space - that leaves a vast universe of nothingness for qi to flow. When it comes to the structures that comprise the human frame then, I would echo Tao Tzu; " Thus, what we have may be substantial but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " Hope this helps - Matt Bauer > > - > mike Bowser > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:42 AM > Re: TCM theory > > > > > Attilio, > > I would like to pose a question as a part of the information that I am > collecting for a textbook on integration. I wish to know what > practitioners believe about qi and meridians. > > Do practitioners/students agree with the classical info that meridians are > actual structures? > > Do practitioners/students believe that there is a substance, which may be > akin to qi that flows through these? > If not, how is chronicity of problems addressed? > > Or do practitioners just think that these are all just metaphors? > > And lastly, did your school encourage one theory of another? > > I hope we can begin a dialogue on what constitutes jing-luo and discuss some > of the research that has been published. This would help me in my research. > Thanks again. > > Sincerely, > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:47:22 -0700, " Benjamin Hawes " <ben_laura wrote: > The actual biology / physics of " qi " and the jing-luo may be extremely complex, involving things like standing electromagnetic waves, photons, quirks of quantum physics, chaos / nonlinear theory, etc. Yes, complex and multi-layered, multi-dimensional. Scientifically approachable from various angles, but unlikely to be reducible to any satisfactory single-dimensional explanation or theory. The interpretation of jing-luo theory and structure that I am currently studying/working-with (largely from Jeffery Yuen) uses three layers/dimensions: 1) Weiqi, whose dynamics is represented in the sinew / tendino-muscular system. Reflexive, instinctual, fast moving, rooted in Yangqi that expresses in the motive, muscular-skeletal, and immune/defense activity of the body, and intimately linked to the sense organs (portals) in the sense of perceiving and reacting to the environment. (Not in their deeper, more cognitive sense of communicating and constructing (intentionality) the meaning of the outer world.) And is moves quickly -- 50 cycles per diem. 2) Yinqi, aka 'qi and blood' moves through the 12 primary channels, in the more measured daily 24-hour cycle; the engine, the currency of post-natal life, transforming daqi (air) and guqi (food/drink) into the qi and blood that informs, carries, and expresses cognitive experience (the functioning and qualities of awareness/shen of the zang organs). Interacts with the weiqi level via the luo-vessel pathological model, and with the yuanqi level via the source points, the sanjiao and back-shu points, alarm-mu points, etc. 3) Yuanqi, aka source qi, from jing. Its cycle is the whole life-cycle of one's life, imprinted and expressed in the 8 extraordinary channels. It supports, gives development and form to post-natal life (yingqi level), and can be enhanced or damaged/exhausted by lifestyle type factors. The biejing, divergent/distinct channel system represents interaction of the weiqi and yuanqi levels, when PFs (pathological factors, external or internal or other) penetrate the defenses of the weigi level and overcome or bypass the integrity of yingqi operation. Expressing, for instance, auto-immune disease as weiqi/immune system activity attacks the yuanqi/jing, as in the joints with RA, or the marrow/sui with MS; and providing the yin to encapsulate chaotic yang (metastasis) into latency (tumors). One may find this schema strange, or not exactly TCM, buy I don't want to defend or debate that here. But just to point out that these three levels/layer represent, provide models or metaphors for widely different, although interrelated, kinds of structure and activity. By this interpretation, the complete jing-luo system is not just conduits of similar structure but different sizes, at different depths and in different distributions. By way of analogy, not just a waterway system of lakes/reservoirs, major rivers, smaller canals and tributaries, down to the plumbing of individual buildings. The whole system is rather a combination of representations of a broad range of different qualities of behavior and levels of life. (Again, as analogy) the summation of water-way conveyance, auto-roads and railroads, wired and wireless electronic communications, hard-copy documents, face-to-face communication, as well as whatever else is transmitted between people, including social and political behavior. Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:39:59 -0800, " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy wrote: > Tao Tzu; " Thus, what we have may be substantial but its usefulness lies in its emptiness. " (Is that 'Lao Tzu'?) Scientific American magazine, August 2002, cover story: " Is 95% of the Universe Really Missing? … Dark Matter. " The idea is that most the matter/energy is in the emptiness of space, or in black holes, or somewhere but nowhere. Theoretical and cosmological physics is an area where often incredible 'metaphors' seem to best express the state of current scientific knowledge. Maybe because they are dealing, in some sense, and more than most other branches of science, with the physical universe seen holistically. The more they try to find reductionist theories (particle/wave, quarks, strings, etc.), the weirder and more incomprehensible it becomes. Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:08:40 -0800, " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy wrote about gender and Yin/Yang. Somewhere (forgot where), Unschuld expresses the opinion that gender is likely involved in the historical origin of the yin/yang. He likes to take things back to basic human and social relationships as original impetus. This is just a footnote to the discussion, not to contradict or question any of Matt's points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 heylaurag wrote: > > Hi Matt---I really need to learn that my sense of humor just doesn't > come through via the written word. I was really just trying to be > funny, actually. Pretty much the only serious sentence in my post > was when I said that as usual you have given me food for thought! I > am always amazed by your ability to put ideas together and convey > them in writing. Clearly I need work on this at least in the area of > humorour writing because I frequently am taken seriously when I'm > kidding!! ARGH! Hi Laura! Use emoticons. :-) smiley face <s> smile <g> grin You get the idea. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Hi Laura - I understand. I often find the slant of my e-messages misinterpreted also. The other side to this though is that I tend to take thinks too seriously. Thanks for you kind thoughts about my writing. - Matt - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:32 PM Re: TCM theory Hi Matt---I really need to learn that my sense of humor just doesn't come through via the written word. I was really just trying to be funny, actually. Pretty much the only serious sentence in my post was when I said that as usual you have given me food for thought! I am always amazed by your ability to put ideas together and convey them in writing. Clearly I need work on this at least in the area of humorour writing because I frequently am taken seriously when I'm kidding!! ARGH! Sorry for the confusion! Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > Hello Laura, > > If you re-read what I quoted from Lao Tzu, you will see he never mentioned that the substantial was less important than the insubstantial. He was pointing out that the functional aspects of the substantial is traced to the insubstantial. Everything in Taoism is about balance. Even by Lao Tzu's time (some 500 years B.C.) people were focusing more on the material/physical and less on the immaterial/spiritual. When Lao Tzu emphasized the value of emptiness, he was helping to correct this imbalance just as TCM doctors will discuss the value of cooling foods to an overheated patient. This is not to imply that one opposite is more valuable then the other. And it most certainly has nothing to do with gender. I have noticed some have a misunderstanding when they equate male with yang and female with yin. That designation only applies to gender as a singular subject. There are two genders. Just because we designate male as yang and female as yin, this does not at all mean that other yin/yang categorizations - such as substantial/insubstantial - carry with them any implications of gender. The lists of yin/yang categorizations you see in books are only to be read horizontally - not vertically. Matt http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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