Topics for discussion on the TCM List

November 11, 2004

Hi Attilio, & All,

Attilio wrote:

> ... the most important thing is to keep the group's vision focused,

> so we can maintain a high level of academic rigour. To do so, we

> need to concentrate on certain topics and abandon others.

The votes put the following as the main topics for this List:

(1) Acupuncture; (2) Case studies; (3) Herbal medicine; (4) [TCM]

Theory; (5) [TCM] Nutrition.

The following topics are no longer for discussion here:

(1) Qigong; (2) Tuina; (3) Guasha; (4) Taiqi; (5) Disadvantages of

WM.

To facilitate those interested in those, Attilio has formed a new List

at: http://health.TuinaQiGongTaiChi/

Well done, Attilio! We need to be more focused.

IMO, acupuncturists who are NOT practitioners of Guasha, Tuina

and Qigong can learn useful practical tips from practitioners who

specialise in those art-sciences! For example, I have found

Richard's inputs to be helpful in the past.

Attilio, would you consider a NEW POLL to decide if we should

CONTINUE to allow discussion of the AP POINTS used in Qigong,

Tuina and Guasha on this list?

Detailed discussion of OTHER aspects of those topics can be on

the new list.

Attilio, would you consider a poll on that suggestion?

Best regards,

Email: <

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it "

November 11, 2004

Phil,

The problem from my point of view is that when Qigong, Tuina, and /

or Guasha are discussed on this list, the discussion invariably lacks

any reference to acupuncture points or acupuncture theory and it is

for this reason that a seperate group should and has been created for

those who want to read and discuss these modalities.

Angelo

> Attilio, would you consider a NEW POLL to decide if we should

> CONTINUE to allow discussion of the AP POINTS used in Qigong,

> Tuina and Guasha on this list?

November 11, 2004

I have to say it also irks me when Qigong is discussed in a loose manner

without reference to the deeper understandings of meridian system and the

Zang Fu on which TCM is based. However ruling it out of bounds for

discussion is dissapointing as IMO it is just as honourable a modality of

TCM as acupuncture and herbal medicine.

But the people have spoken.....as George Bush would say.

Dermot

-

" Angelo DAlberto " <angelo_dalberto

Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:35 PM

Re: Topics for discussion on the TCM List

>

> Phil,

>

> The problem from my point of view is that when Qigong, Tuina, and /

> or Guasha are discussed on this list, the discussion invariably lacks

> any reference to acupuncture points or acupuncture theory and it is

> for this reason that a seperate group should and has been created for

> those who want to read and discuss these modalities.

>

> Angelo

>

> > Attilio, would you consider a NEW POLL to decide if we should

> > CONTINUE to allow discussion of the AP POINTS used in Qigong,

> > Tuina and Guasha on this list?

>

http://babel.altavista.com/

>

and adjust

accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

>

November 12, 2004

There seems to me to be a fundamental difference between how qi

practices, which are more oriented to self cultivation and

sensations, are practiced versus more western approaches to health -

like TCM acupuncture and herbs. TCM has alot of definitions that lend

to a tighter vocabulary and make it easier to have a common base of

communication.

But for body workers and qigong practitioners, the points become less

relevant. It's where you feel the sensation of where you need to be.

The stagnation or blockage at a given place may not be at a pre-

defined acupuncture point or may change with the seasons. This makes

it difficult to convey to others through written word what is being

done, and hence why people with an interest in this seek out someone

to learn from to get a direct validation that what they're doing is

right.

It's for this reason I have such a difficult time trying to figure

out pulse diagnosis from what someone wrote 2000 years ago that's

been translated by someone who thinks they've sort of got it right.

What does it mean to feel a pulse that feels like a chicken's foot in

the spleen position?

Chinese Medicine , " Angelo

DAlberto " <angelo_dalberto> wrote:

>

> Phil,

>

> The problem from my point of view is that when Qigong, Tuina, and /

> or Guasha are discussed on this list, the discussion invariably

lacks

> any reference to acupuncture points or acupuncture theory and it is

> for this reason that a seperate group should and has been created

for

> those who want to read and discuss these modalities.

>

> Angelo

>

> > Attilio, would you consider a NEW POLL to decide if we should

> > CONTINUE to allow discussion of the AP POINTS used in Qigong,

> > Tuina and Guasha on this list?

November 12, 2004

On Nov 11, 2004, at 4:02 PM, briansbeard wrote:

> There seems to me to be a fundamental difference between how qi

> practices, which are more oriented to self cultivation and

> sensations, are practiced versus more western approaches to health -

> like TCM acupuncture and herbs. TCM has alot of definitions that lend

> to a tighter vocabulary and make it easier to have a common base of

> communication.

I think that is reasonable, although Unschuld's recent seminars on the

Su Wen argue that acupuncture can also be used as a self-cultivation

method as well. Rather than say that herbal medicine and acupuncture

are 'more Western' approaches to health, I think it would be more

accurate to say that they are clearly part of professional medical

practice that has existed in all cultures that produced medical systems

(including Ayurveda, , and Greco-Arabic medicine).

>

> But for body workers and qigong practitioners, the points become less

> relevant. It's where you feel the sensation of where you need to be.

> The stagnation or blockage at a given place may not be at a pre-

> defined acupuncture point or may change with the seasons. This makes

> it difficult to convey to others through written word what is being

> done, and hence why people with an interest in this seek out someone

> to learn from to get a direct validation that what they're doing is

> right.

>

Acupuncture holes/points also change location, with season and in

individual patients. There certainly is an importance to what you

describe, but to say it cannot be communicated through words isn't

true. The classical acupuncture texts do talk about these things.

> It's for this reason I have such a difficult time trying to figure

> out pulse diagnosis from what someone wrote 2000 years ago that's

> been translated by someone who thinks they've sort of got it right.

> What does it mean to feel a pulse that feels like a chicken's foot in

> the spleen position?

>

This pulse has been discussed in some detail in many texts, both

classical and modern, so there is quite a bit of agreement on what it

means. The original source is in the Nan Jing, and it associated

there with the heart being diseased. " A chicken lifting its feet "

simply is a metaphor for a pulse that arrives strong and rapid, but

departs empty with no strength.

>

November 12, 2004

----

Dermot O'Connor

11/12/04 01:07:52

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Topics for discussion on the TCM List

But the people have spoken.....as George Bush would say.

Dermot

(Tom): yes, but did the people also decide that only the top 5 of the results

could be discussed within this group? Gua Sha, for example is really a part of

TCM.

November 13, 2004

Z'ev:

> Rather than say that herbal medicine and acupuncture

> are 'more Western' approaches to health, I think it would be more

> accurate to say that they are clearly part of professional medical

> practice that has existed in all cultures that produced medical

systems

> (including Ayurveda, , and Greco-Arabic medicine).

> >

Brian:

I would agree with you. I think it's also interesting to note that

essentially we have limited ourselves to about half of the eight

limbs of oriental medicine - herbs, acupuncture, etc which are the

parts that are done by someone to someone, versus the parts which are

done for one-self such as meditation, qigong, etc.

And by their very nature it's the part that has developed into a

professional medical practice.

As for the rest, I guess I have alot more studying to do.

--brian

November 13, 2004

I tend to agree that topics such as internal/external Qi Gong, TuiNa etc

should not have been removed from the list of “allowed” topics.

First of all – as it was posted – TuiNa, QiGong, GuaSha, cupping etc are

all modalities of TCM. However I do agree that the discussions there has

been on TuiNa has been quite below par! TuiNa is ALWAYS based on TCM

theory including points, meridians, ashii points and what have we!! I

have never met any TuiNa Massage Therapist (there’s actually only quite

few good ones around!!) yet who couldn’t explain what he/she was doing

in terms of TCM, meridians etc. There are a thousand styles and types of

excellent and less excellent Asian Body Work that do not adhere to TCM

theory very strictly or at all, but TuiNa does so very much and true

TuiNa is taught true to TCM theory no less detailed than when you study

acupuncture!!! Medical or external QiGong can also be explained and

discussed in terms of TCM and are/should always be taught and performed

keeping TCM theory in mind – afterall Qi Gong is the study and training

of gathering and manipulating Qi and to do this properly you need good

understanding of TCM – poor foundation, unstable house!

Tradiditional is – in my opinion – not necessarily

identifiable with acupuncture or herbs – these are “just” modalities

like TuiNa, Cupping, Moxa treatment etc. These modalities are “tools of

the trade” used to correct imbalances, break up stagnation etc.

Traditional should be identified through its theory,

philosophy and inherent problemsolving measures in the form of

diagnosis, treament plans etc.. Acupuncture and herbs are the most

welldescribed modalities in classical as well as modern TCM litterature

and might be the modalities of choice for most. However TuiNa and Qi

Gong are just as valid as TCM modalities and are actually theoretically

quite welldefined and can be discussed at the same theoretical level as

acupuncture and herbs – it just takes better trained practitioners!?!

Even though internal Qi Gong isn’t historically well supported in the

classics and most likely a daoist/martial arts invention it should – in

my opinion and according to any teacher I ever had – be a part of any

TCM practitioners daily routine to prepare himself for giving treatment

and as a part to keep the practitioner at good health.

When I give treatments I do not necessarily seperate TuiNa, external Qi

Gong, cupping, etc. My treatments would be less effective, I feel, if I

was not to use external Qi Gong whenever I do needling or different

TuiNa manipulations. As a herbalist would most often give herbs and

supporting them with acupuncture (whichever tactics chosen). If I am to

discuss a case story from my practice I would necessarily have to

mention about the TuiNa, external Qi Gong, acupuncture, etc I made use

of to help the patient and so I would have to bring up topics as Qi Gong

etc. If not how could the case I was working on be properly described

and how could there be given proper advise so as to help my patient the

best way possible?! For me it is not separable.

Humbly,

Thomas Boegedal Soerensen

WHRDA Lic. Instructor

L.Ac. & TuiNa Massage Therapist

November 13, 2004

Hi Ai and Thomas,

Thanks for your concerns. Personally, I was disappointed that GuaSha didn't

make alot of votes. I still have a close connection to GuaSha and would like

to see it in the group.

This whole episode had to be undertaken to refocus this group back into a

TCM group. It was becoming a solely Tuina and QiGong group for which I

didn't set up it for.

Certain members refused to believe that it was integrated with acupuncture,

meridians, etc. And even though I patiently tried to coax them into the

idea, it didn't happen.

So instead of silencing a few members, I decided that the whole group needed

to become more focused and specialised. I set this group up for the same

reasons as the large majority of votes, for acupuncture, theory, herbs, case

studies and nutrition. We are a long way off those subjects.

No, I don't agree that subject heading will work, as it never has done in

the past. Every month I remind members to alter their subject headings but

members don't. I'm not prepared to alter every message's subject heading as

it comes through. At the moment I have to cut out people's excess tags,

signatures, etc which people forget to do. I can't take on any more work.

Even setting up a new group is too much.

So, it will stay the way it is at the moment and let's see if it works.

Attilio

Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen [thomasboegedal]

13 November 2004 07:23