Guest guest Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Hi! Has anyone had any experience treating Endometriosis with Acupuncture & Shiatsu??? I would love to hear success stories and dos and don'ts Also has anyone had any insight on overran cysts???????? And oh.. another patient has constant contractions in her pregnancy though she is very early in her pregnancy, this is her third pregnancy (she has 2 kids) and they were all the same..is there any chinese technique to reduce these contractions at such an early point (week 26) and how are contractions perceived? Thanks and G-od bless Chanalee _______________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Chanalee - Although it is not impossible to reduce ovarian cysts and endometriosis with acupuncture, better results are usually achieved with Chinese Herbal Medicine. Because blood stasis is not the same thing as stagnant blood (endometriosis and ovarian cysts being the latter), internal medicine (herbal agents) are usually employed to treat this, and they are quite effective. You may contact me off-list at rtoo if you would like more information on this. Ray Rubio, L. Ac. On Nov 9, 2004, at 5:05 AM, chanalee kaplan-Arusy wrote: > > > Hi! > Has anyone had any experience treating Endometriosis with > Acupuncture & Shiatsu??? > I would love to hear success stories and dos and don'ts > > Also has anyone had any insight on overran cysts???????? > > And oh.. another patient has constant contractions in her pregnancy > though > she is very early in her pregnancy, this is her third pregnancy (she > has 2 > kids) and they were all the same..is there any chinese technique to > reduce > these contractions at such an early point (week 26) and how are > contractions > perceived? > Thanks and G-od bless > Chanalee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Hi Chanalee, A friend of ours had operations to remove ovarian cysts. Her MD recommended that she does not have any further operations after they became to large. She went to our tuina/qigong practitioner who sucessful reduced the size of the cysts to about the size of a coin. Tuina is similar to Shiatsu though my practitioner augments bodywork with qigong works which does appear to be a substantial differentiator when it comes to results. The practitioner operates on a single principle - to remove stagnant qi (in this case the cysts) and allow qi to flow smoothly. He removes the stagnation using primiarly bodywork (of the whole body including muscles, joints, tendons, meridians, etc.), cupping, guasha, and qigong. Her MD confirmed the results. This was several months ago, so I do not know what is her latest situation though I understand it continues to be very positive. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " chanalee kaplan-Arusy " <chanchabk12@h...> wrote: > > Hi! > Has anyone had any experience treating Endometriosis with > Acupuncture & Shiatsu??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 I've had good results with telling patients to do " homework " with the Japanese " tiger warmer " applied 5-10 mins./day, bilaterally, to Liver 8. This point has been used to successfully shrink uterine fibroids, of all sizes, and some smaller ones even " flush out. " I've seen this with my own eyes. John Garbarini. --- Rich <rfinkelstein wrote: > > > Hi Chanalee, > > A friend of ours had operations to remove ovarian > cysts. Her MD > recommended that she does not have any further > operations after they > became to large. She went to our tuina/qigong > practitioner who > sucessful reduced the size of the cysts to about the > size of a coin. > > Tuina is similar to Shiatsu though my practitioner > augments bodywork > with qigong works which does appear to be a > substantial differentiator > when it comes to results. The practitioner operates > on a single > principle - to remove stagnant qi (in this case the > cysts) and allow > qi to flow smoothly. He removes the stagnation using > primiarly > bodywork (of the whole body including muscles, > joints, tendons, > meridians, etc.), cupping, guasha, and qigong. > > Her MD confirmed the results. This was several > months ago, so I do not > know what is her latest situation though I > understand it continues to > be very positive. > > Regards, > Rich > > Chinese Medicine , > " chanalee > kaplan-Arusy " <chanchabk12@h...> wrote: > > > > Hi! > > Has anyone had any experience treating > Endometriosis with > > Acupuncture & Shiatsu??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Rich Does the process involve finding indurations and " smoothing " these out? Does one work along channels or by a notion of 5 E, or simply topically? Is the process unduly painful? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " Rich " <rfinkelstein <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:36 AM Re: Endometriosis and cysts > > > > Hi Chanalee, > > A friend of ours had operations to remove ovarian cysts. Her MD > recommended that she does not have any further operations after they > became to large. She went to our tuina/qigong practitioner who > sucessful reduced the size of the cysts to about the size of a coin. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 Dear Dr. Keikobad, To the best of my understanding: > > Does the process involve finding indurations and " smoothing " these out? This is essentially what the " bodywork component " of the treatment is attempting to accomplish. Smoothing is performed in the direction of inside-to-out. So simply smoothing is not sufficient. The negative energy that is released has to be moved out of the body - towards the extremities. Energy is never " reversed " back into the body. This is a significant difference from many forms of tuina and Shiatsu. The qigong component, as you might surmise, acts in a slightly different manner but with the same goal. Qigong is used to " move (warm) cold qi " . By warming the qi the " negative " cold qi is able to move out of the body. Qigong is always performed at the beginning of the treatment (to warm the body and also help protect the practitioner from absorbing cold qi) and during the treatment as required. > > Does one work along channels or by a notion of 5 E, or simply topically? It certainly works along channels. Within my teacher's practice, the most sigificant channels are the Du and Ren. If these are not free and clear then the energy of the body cannot flow freely. For this reason, much emphasis is place on the suppleness of the spine. In the Ren area, bodywork and qigong is performed to create suppleness especially in the abdomen (Japanese Hara) but in all areas including the chest (cupping is perfomed here when necessary). The work is not limited to the large channels. They are important but they are not sufficient. The vessels in the finger tips, for example, are considered equally important as any primary meridian and are treated (usually with guasha). Work is performed on all areas of the body so that all vessels are " opened " . To accomplish this, the whole body is treated, using tuina techniques as well as cupping and guasha, during each session. I have counted the techniques employed in an average session. There are about 90. > > Is the process unduly painful? This is a very difficult question for me to answer. The clients usually feel pain whereever there is stagnation. Frequently, the pain is followed by a feeling of relief. CLients usually react very positively to the treatments. Emotional relief after a session is as common as physical relief. Over time, the pain usually subsides. Usually this takes three sessions. Frequently (almost all long term cases) the clients request deeper pressure even when it is painful because they feel the stagnation being released. However, for a certain percentage of the patients the pain is too much to tolerate. I would say about 20%. For these, a different, more milder appraoch would probably be more beneficial, but my teacher does not always recognize this situation and does not scale back. After treating 10s of thousands of patients in China (where the pain is pretty much expected), he is not use to the responses he receives here in the U.S. He is becoming more sensitive to these issues, but clearly this type of treatment is not for everyone. I have found this so in my own practices. I believe that everyone seeks their own path in their own process of healing. I always suggest various alternatives to my friends informing them that in my own experiences, the above process seems to offer the best long term results. Of course, I am always open to new approaches. I hope this answers your questions. I would be happy to clarify further. Also, thank you for your comment on Chakras. I found it very interesting. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 With ovarian cysts, does he take into account the possibility of rupture? That is, I assume he does not work directly on them? Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 I am learning. Have much to say about the Chakras, but on my own have kept clear of these because of what comes out. Is there a different release substantially in cease or guisha and cupping? For instance guisha is redness as a basis with purplish blotching super- imposed. Is the redness one kind of substance, and the blotching, another? The more interesting blotching comes from where? Channels, subcutaneous tissue, collaterals, musculo-skeletal bands, even organs? And what " pull " it out, a positive pressure from within, or a negative pressure from without? Can guisha be dome on limbs? And on abdomen? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " Rich " <rfinkelstein <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, November 09, 2004 12:44 PM Re: Endometriosis and cysts > > > > Dear Dr. Keikobad, > > To the best of my understanding: >> >> Does the process involve finding indurations and " smoothing " these out? > > This is essentially what the " bodywork component " of the treatment is > attempting to accomplish. Smoothing is performed in the direction of > inside-to-out. So simply smoothing is not sufficient. The negative > energy that is released has to be moved out of the body - towards the > extremities. Energy is never " reversed " back into the body. This is a > significant difference from many forms of tuina and Shiatsu. > > The qigong component, as you might surmise, acts in a slightly > different manner but with the same goal. Qigong is used to " move > (warm) cold qi " . By warming the qi the " negative " cold qi is able to > move out of the body. Qigong is always performed at the beginning of > the treatment (to warm the body and also help protect the practitioner > from absorbing cold qi) and during the treatment as required. >> >> Does one work along channels or by a notion of 5 E, or simply topically? > > It certainly works along channels. Within my teacher's practice, the > most sigificant channels are the Du and Ren. If these are not free and > clear then the energy of the body cannot flow freely. For this reason, > much emphasis is place on the suppleness of the spine. In the Ren > area, bodywork and qigong is performed to create suppleness especially > in the abdomen (Japanese Hara) but in all areas including the chest > (cupping is perfomed here when necessary). > > The work is not limited to the large channels. They are important but > they are not sufficient. The vessels in the finger tips, for example, > are considered equally important as any primary meridian and are > treated (usually with guasha). Work is performed on all areas of the > body so that all vessels are " opened " . To accomplish this, the whole > body is treated, using tuina techniques as well as cupping and guasha, > during each session. I have counted the techniques employed in an > average session. There are about 90. >> >> Is the process unduly painful? > > This is a very difficult question for me to answer. The clients > usually feel pain whereever there is stagnation. Frequently, the pain > is followed by a feeling of relief. CLients usually react very > positively to the treatments. Emotional relief after a session is as > common as physical relief. Over time, the pain usually subsides. > Usually this takes three sessions. Frequently (almost all long term > cases) the clients request deeper pressure even when it is painful > because they feel the stagnation being released. > > However, for a certain percentage of the patients the pain is too much > to tolerate. I would say about 20%. For these, a different, more > milder appraoch would probably be more beneficial, but my teacher does > not always recognize this situation and does not scale back. After > treating 10s of thousands of patients in China (where the pain is > pretty much expected), he is not use to the responses he receives here > in the U.S. He is becoming more sensitive to these issues, but clearly > this type of treatment is not for everyone. I have found this so in my > own practices. > > I believe that everyone seeks their own path in their own process of > healing. I always suggest various alternatives to my friends informing > them that in my own experiences, the above process seems to offer the > best long term results. Of course, I am always open to new approaches. > > I hope this answers your questions. I would be happy to clarify > further. Also, thank you for your comment on Chakras. I found it very > interesting. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 I went to a seminar earlier this year where the topic discussed was ovarian cysts and something I think is called " myomas " but which the translator pronounced " mee-ar-mus " . anyway the person speaking was a middle aged female head of a chinese medical family clinic who has several decades of experience including being director of a TCM institute/hospital in Shenyang in north china. She said that in her experience what we call ovarian cysts were usually an advanced form of qi and blood stagnation or congealed blood, and were usually caused by emotional stress and negativity affecting the Liver and then the Uterus and Kidneys. Treatment principle was to disperse stagnation, move the blood, but some form of education or treatment of the emotional side was essential - she said that a very high proportion of people get recurring ovarian cysts because even after treatment they don't resolve the underlying emotional condition. hope that's useful. Simon Thakur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Hi Chanalee & All, Chanalee Kaplan-Arusy wrote: > Hi! Has anyone had any experience treating Endometriosis with > Acupuncture & Shiatsu??? I would love to hear success stories and > dos and don'ts Also has anyone had any insight on overran > cysts???????? See: http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/gu1.htm > And oh.. another patient has constant contractions in her pregnancy > though she is very early in her pregnancy, this is her third > pregnancy (she has 2 kids) and they were all the same..is there any > chinese technique to reduce these contractions at such an early > point (week 26) and how are contractions perceived? Thanks and G-od > bless Chanalee Chinese herbal formulas are used to " Calm the Foetus " in habitual miscarriage or threatened abortion. Such formulas often contain the term Antai or An Tai (An=Calm, Pacify; Tai=Foetus). See: http://tinyurl.com/4sz8x and http://tinyurl.com/5mo9u Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 > With ovarian cysts, does he take into account the possibility of rupture? > That is, I assume he does not work directly on them? > > Pat I am not sure since I never discussed this question with him directly. If I have a chance, I will raise the question the next time I see him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Hi Dr. Keikobad, > > Is there a different release substantially in cease or guisha and cupping? My teacher explains taht he uses guasha when there are large areas of stagnation while he uses cupping in more localized areas. He says if the whole back, for example, is stagnant, it makes no sense to use cupping. When I suggested " sliding cupping " as alternative, he acknowledge this as an alternative but suggested there were some differences. With cupping, the sha can " leak out " to the sides. It can find a place to " hide " . The motion is more like a vacuum cleaner than a broom where sha is being pulled up and not pushed along. So guasha is more precise in its action to move " out " while cupping is better at pulling deep stagnation out of the tissue and bones. I can feel the difference when I practice the two techniques. > > For instance guisha is redness as a basis with purplish blotching >super-imposed. One can say that guasha is more " superficial " and not as deep as the plusplish stagnation of cupping. Though very deep (and usually painful) guasha can yield very similar results. I know this since my son was just guashaed. > > Is the redness one kind of substance, and the blotching, another? Not in the way my teacher sees it. He views both as different formation of qi stagnation - though he may suggest that purplish has more " wind " and/or " dampness " in it. He sometimes uses this phraseology without much further comment. I don't really delve too much into it because he is usually busy with a client. > > The more interesting blotching comes from where? Channels, subcutaneous tissue, collaterals, musculo-skeletal bands, even organs? I would say the most interesting come from the bones, muscles, and tissues, where there are usually huge pools of stored " stagnation " . These, are what I would call, overflow areas where the stagnation comes spilling out of the channels and are stored in a place that the " Mind " seems fit. It is interesting that when I do bodywork on people who teach yoga, that even they have these pools of stagnation. The Mind seems to always find some place in the body to store the " stagnation " when it sees fit. The organs are interesting more for the effect on the person than the actual color. I personally consider this spot to " tender " for such technique though my teacher will use them. He says it is quite common in China. > > And what " pull " it out, a positive pressure from within, or a negative pressure from without? I would decribe it as the " condensed " being freed so that it can be flow again. > Can guisha be dome on limbs? And on abdomen? Certainly on the limbs - particularly on the hands where there is often lots of stagnation (sha). The energy in the hands in made to move " out of the body " , via the fingers. Often, the fingers are pulled in order to effect the final release. As, I mentioned above, I have seen my teacher use it on the abdomen but my own preference in this area, at least at this moment of my own learning, is to use the hands. I view the abdomen as the seat of consciousness and should be approached as such. I hope my explanations were adequate. If not, I will try to explain better. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Hola chanalee, I have (thank G-d) had great success in treating Endometriosis to the point of complete and -seemingly permanent- remmission. (95%+) I use (among other points determined by pulse and tongue and along with herbs) SJ5 LI4 G26 G27 (S30 on one side with contralateral Livg 4) Liv 3 through to K1 and G41. I treat with strong manipulation to disperse. Ear points are; Utero, Shen Men, Kidney etc -all obvious . Treatment is 2-3 times a week for 2-3 months and - this is the hardest part- it is important to get the Pt to understand that she must keep coming for Tx for 3-4 weeks after the symptoms are completely gone. OTOH I have had limited success with Ovarian Cysts and so refer these patients to a local practitioner who has great success with this. Doc chanalee kaplan-Arusy <chanchabk12 wrote: Hi! Has anyone had any experience treating Endometriosis with Acupuncture & Shiatsu??? I would love to hear success stories and dos and don'ts Also has anyone had any insight on overran cysts???????? And oh.. another patient has constant contractions in her pregnancy though she is very early in her pregnancy, this is her third pregnancy (she has 2 kids) and they were all the same..is there any chinese technique to reduce these contractions at such an early point (week 26) and how are contractions perceived? Thanks and G-od bless Chanalee Check out the new Front Page. www. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Hi Doc Re your endometriosis points, you say: " Liv 3 through to K1 " . Do you locate KI01-Yongquan between metatarsal bones 1-2? Most of my references locate it proximal to the metatarsal- phalangeal joints 2 and 3. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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