Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Marcia I forgot to comment on the differences between the ADVANCED versions of two Altavista v Google for focused (BOOLEAN-type) WWW searches in my last mail about published data on Qinghao (and related synonyms) on lymphoma / lymphosarcoma. Marcia De Luna wrote: > I use ... the word QINGHAOSU and retrieve 653 only with QINGHAOSU > but not with the other key words. Marcia, your note prompted me to look at my search profiles again. You are correct. Many thanks! I had forgotten QINGHAOSU (the Chinese synonym for artemisinin in the for purified extract of Qinghao). I has also forgotten to include the alternative term " artemisinine " , and the plural terms for words like artemisinin, artemisinine, lymphoma, cancer, etc. MEDLINE is the definitive source for PUBLISHED scientific articles in medicine. 1. I have re-run searches on Medline, Google and AltaVista on 2. Medline allows Wildcards (*) to cover related words beginning with the root word before the wildcard. Therefore, the cancer part of the Medline search was: (lymphoid-neoplasia* OR lymphoid-cancer* OR lymphosarcoma* OR lymphoma* OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) It had 121967 hits for that profile. See: http://tinyurl.com/5e6c5 3. General WWW searches on Google or AltaVista (see more below) use terms like: ( " lymphoid-neoplasia " OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR " qing-hao-su " OR artemisinine OR chinghao OR " qing-hao " OR " ching-hao " OR " ching-hao-su " OR " artemisiae- annuae " OR " sweet-wormwood " OR " sweet-annie " OR artemisinines) However, Medline has no hits on the terms: qing-hao-su, chinghao, ching-hao, ching-hao-su, artemisiae-annuae, or sweet-annie. Therefore, these terms were omitted from a Medline search, and the Qinghao-related part of the search was reduced to: (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet- wormwood " OR artemisinines) That search had 1615 Medline hits. See: http://tinyurl.com/3wpmo 4. Combination of Searhes (2) AND (3) had ZERO Medline hits [see: http://tinyurl.com/42yu5 ] for: (lymphoid-neoplasia* OR lymphoid-cancer* OR lymphosarcoma* OR lymphoma* OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet-wormwood " OR artemisinines) 5. However, there were 37 hits [ http://tinyurl.com/4m3tg ] for a Medline search for: (neoplas* OR cancer* OR sarcoma*) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet-wormwood " OR artemisinines) As an aftethought, I ran the profile: (leucaemi* OR leukaem* OR leukem* OR leucem*) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet- wormwood " OR artemisinines) There were 14 hits [ http://tinyurl.com/3jptu ]. CONCLUSION: Medline had no hits on Qinghao-related topics and lymphoid-type cancers, but had 37 hits on Qinghao-related tiopics and OTHER cancers, including 14 hits on leukaemia or related conditions. WWW gives a different picture altogether! There are many CLAIMS " out there " that Qinghao (or related approaches) may influence many forms of cancer, including lymphoid-type cancers. Below is a long look at search strategies on Altavista versus Google. The bottom line is that AltaVista gets far more hits than Google. However, one must question the scientific valiidity of WWW claime that are unsupported by published work on Medline. Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpts from a mail earlier this evening to Stan Rice of http://members.cruzio.com/~autospec/ Hi Stan, , a professional veterinary researcher and a practitioner of acupuncture and Traditional , here. Your concept of " Go for the nectar! " [ http://members.cruzio.com/~autospec/ ] appeals to me very much! Though there is a vast amount of info on WWW, I am frustrated by my inability to " find the nectar " [the genuine, reliable data] using standard Engines. I find Google inadequate because one can use only 10 words in a single search. Therefore, one cannot do a complex search on it. For example, see the examples, below. If you disagree, please tell me how! I wanted to search for WWW data on the following concept: QINGHAO (a chinese herb), and its synonyms, in relation to: CANCER of the lymphoid tissues, and their synonyms. A search of scientific (by paid subscription only) databases would use a complex profile, such as in the detailed example (A) + (L), below. In contrast, AltaVista Advanced is much easier to use and gives more hits in complex searches than Google. However, Altavista also has quirks that I do not understand. For example by switching keyweod positios in a profile, or dropping brackets, one gets different numbers of hits for the same search words! Try this in AltaVista [ www.altavista.com/ ]: " qing-hao " OR QINGHAO (2100 hits) ( " qing-hao " OR QINGHAO) (2060 hits) [The brackets removed 40 hits] And: QINGHAO OR " qing-hao " (2050 hits) (QINGHAO OR " qing-hao " ) (2050 hits) [The hits were less than when the hyphenated term went first, but the brackets made no difference!] These quirks (and those described below) make me wonder if am using the AltaVista and/or Google engines correctly. I would greatly appreciate your tips on (1) Which WWW engine(s) you find the best for complex searches related to health & medicine, and (b) How to formulate a complex (Boolean) WWW Search to link concepts (a) and (b) above to the best advantage. More details on comparisons between Google and Altavista follow. Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> QUIRKS OF GOOGLE & ALTAVISTA Engines, by , Dublin, Nov 3, 2004 This note compares the outputs from complex searches on the Advanced (Boolean Search) option on AltaVista [ www.altavista.com/web/adv ] versus the Basic Google Engine [ www.google.com/ ]. [The Google Advanced Search [ www.google.com/advanced_search ] was no better than the Basic Search, and was more difficult to use because the OR statements had to be removed from the decided searches, as below]. Several quirks emerged from these searches. They are described, with specific examples, below. (a) Google allows only 10 search terms, including hyphenated terms. If the 10th term is the second (or later) part of a hyphenated term, (for example, “qing” in the term “qing-hao-su”), many irrelevant hits (relating to its first part (“qing”, in the cited example) are returned. Therefore, it is not possible to search Google for complex strings, with many “OR” statements. (b) In the search examples, below, Google omitted the CAPITALISED search terms. That omission resulted in less hits than one would expect, as indicated by the asterisk (*) in the Google Hits column, below. © Google also returns different numbers of hits for exactly the same profiles (for example A, B, C below) in searches done, say 10 or 20 minutes later, The numbers can go up or down, for no apparent reason! (d) CONCLUSIONS: Overall, it would seem that AltaVista was easier to use for complex searches, and returned more hits than Google. The RELEVANCE of the hits (from both sources was not examined. 1. What happens when PLURAL forms are included as “OR” options with singular forms?: Google gives LESS hits, whereas, as one might expect, Altavista gives MORE hits. Also, Altavista returns hit numbers that are multiple times greater than Google. For example: Hits on Google Basic v Hits on Altavista Advanced A For SINGULAR forms of the search terms: ( " lymphoid- neoplasia” OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 480,000 1,630,000 B For PLURAL forms of the search terms: ( " lymphoid-neoplasias” OR " lymphoid-cancers " OR lymphosarcomas OR lymphomas OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 244,000 992,000 C For BOTH OPTIONS (singular or plural): ( " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-neoplasias” OR " LYMPHOID- CANCERS " OR LYMPHOSARCOMAS OR LYMPHOMAS) 365,000* 1,860,000 2. Reversal of the SEQUENCE of the SAME search terms changes the number of hits on Google AND Altavista: D ( " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 480,000 1,630,000 E (hodgkins OR hodgkin's OR lymphoma OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia " OR lymphosarcoma) 475,000 1,660,000 F (lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia " OR lymphosarcoma) 477,000 1,650,000 G (lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia " ) 473,000 1,620,000 H ( " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 473,000 1,620,000 I Same as © except that the plurals were put in first: ( " lymphoid-neoplasias” OR " lymphoid-cancers " OR lymphosarcomas OR lymphomas OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR " LYMPHOID-CANCER " OR LYMPHOSARCOMA OR LYMPHOMA) 234,000 1,810,000 3. SECOND PART OF CONCEPT - QINGHAO or " OR qinghaosu, etc J SINGULAR: (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR QINGHAO OR " artemisia-annua " OR " qing-hao-su " OR " qing-hao " OR ARTEMISININE OR CHINGHAO OR " CHING-HAO " OR " CHING- HAO-SU " OR " ARTEMISIAE-ANNUAE " OR " SWEET- WORMWOOD " OR " SWEET-ANNIE " ) 30,300* 52,900 K PLURAL (where plural form exists) or SINGULAR (where only singulars exist): (qinghaosu OR artemisinins OR QINGHAO OR " artemisia-annua " OR " qing-hao-su " OR " qing-hao " OR ARTEMISININES OR CHINGHAO OR " CHING-HAO " OR " CHING- HAO-SU " OR " ARTEMISIAE-ANNUAE " OR " SWEET- WORMWOOD " OR " SWEET-ANNIE " ) 16,600* 37,900 L BOTH options, but optimized to get the best value for 10 words in the Google string: (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR QINGHAO OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR " qing-hao-su " OR artemisinine OR CHINGHAO OR " QING-HAO " OR " CHING-HAO " OR " CHING-HAO-SU " OR " ARTEMISIAE-ANNUAE " OR " SWEET- WORMWOOD " OR " SWEET-ANNIE " OR ARTEMISININES) 31,300* 53,000 4. COMBINATION of the TWO CONCEPTS (Lymphoma etc + Qinghao etc) using maximum hit numbers for each concepts, i.e.: M Combine (A + L) for Google, and (A + L, and C + L) for Altavista Google=405* (see hits on: tinyurl.com/6ghr8 ), whereas AltaVista=961 (A+L), or 944 (C+L) (see hits on: tinyurl.com/7xopz and tinyurl.com/3jbav * Note: Profile (A) was entered on the Basic Google search, and Profile (L) was added by taking the option “Search WITHIN Results”, at the bottom left side of each Google Results Page. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stan, I would appreciate any tips that you can give to help me formulate complex searches on WWW Engines. I have no problem with the professional databases, because their “front-end” search facilities are very powerful. But Web Engines do not allow that precision of focus. Or if they do, I have failed to find it so far! Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Marcia I forgot to comment on the differences between the ADVANCED versions of two Altavista v Google for focused (BOOLEAN-type) WWW searches in my last mail about published data on Qinghao (and related synonyms) on lymphoma / lymphosarcoma. Marcia De Luna wrote: > I use ... the word QINGHAOSU and retrieve 653 only with QINGHAOSU > but not with the other key words. Marcia, your note prompted me to look at my search profiles again. You are correct. Many thanks! I had forgotten QINGHAOSU (the Chinese synonym for artemisinin in the for purified extract of Qinghao). I has also forgotten to include the alternative term " artemisinine " , and the plural terms for words like artemisinin, artemisinine, lymphoma, cancer, etc. MEDLINE is the definitive source for PUBLISHED scientific articles in medicine. 1. I have re-run searches on Medline, Google and AltaVista on 2. Medline allows Wildcards (*) to cover related words beginning with the root word before the wildcard. Therefore, the cancer part of the Medline search was: (lymphoid-neoplasia* OR lymphoid-cancer* OR lymphosarcoma* OR lymphoma* OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) It had 121967 hits for that profile. See: http://tinyurl.com/5e6c5 3. General WWW searches on Google or AltaVista (see more below) use terms like: ( " lymphoid-neoplasia " OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR " qing-hao-su " OR artemisinine OR chinghao OR " qing-hao " OR " ching-hao " OR " ching-hao-su " OR " artemisiae- annuae " OR " sweet-wormwood " OR " sweet-annie " OR artemisinines) However, Medline has no hits on the terms: qing-hao-su, chinghao, ching-hao, ching-hao-su, artemisiae-annuae, or sweet-annie. Therefore, these terms were omitted from a Medline search, and the Qinghao-related part of the search was reduced to: (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet- wormwood " OR artemisinines) That search had 1615 Medline hits. See: http://tinyurl.com/3wpmo 4. Combination of Searhes (2) AND (3) had ZERO Medline hits [see: http://tinyurl.com/42yu5 ] for: (lymphoid-neoplasia* OR lymphoid-cancer* OR lymphosarcoma* OR lymphoma* OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet-wormwood " OR artemisinines) 5. However, there were 37 hits [ http://tinyurl.com/4m3tg ] for a Medline search for: (neoplas* OR cancer* OR sarcoma*) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet-wormwood " OR artemisinines) As an aftethought, I ran the profile: (leucaemi* OR leukaem* OR leukem* OR leucem*) AND (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR qinghao OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR artemisinine OR " qing-hao " OR " sweet- wormwood " OR artemisinines) There were 14 hits [ http://tinyurl.com/3jptu ]. CONCLUSION: Medline had no hits on Qinghao-related topics and lymphoid-type cancers, but had 37 hits on Qinghao-related tiopics and OTHER cancers, including 14 hits on leukaemia or related conditions. WWW gives a different picture altogether! There are many CLAIMS " out there " that Qinghao (or related approaches) may influence many forms of cancer, including lymphoid-type cancers. Below is a long look at search strategies on Altavista versus Google. The bottom line is that AltaVista gets far more hits than Google. However, one must question the scientific valiidity of WWW claime that are unsupported by published work on Medline. Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpts from a mail earlier this evening to Stan Rice of http://members.cruzio.com/~autospec/ Hi Stan, , a professional veterinary researcher and a practitioner of acupuncture and Traditional , here. Your concept of " Go for the nectar! " [ http://members.cruzio.com/~autospec/ ] appeals to me very much! Though there is a vast amount of info on WWW, I am frustrated by my inability to " find the nectar " [the genuine, reliable data] using standard Engines. I find Google inadequate because one can use only 10 words in a single search. Therefore, one cannot do a complex search on it. For example, see the examples, below. If you disagree, please tell me how! I wanted to search for WWW data on the following concept: QINGHAO (a chinese herb), and its synonyms, in relation to: CANCER of the lymphoid tissues, and their synonyms. A search of scientific (by paid subscription only) databases would use a complex profile, such as in the detailed example (A) + (L), below. In contrast, AltaVista Advanced is much easier to use and gives more hits in complex searches than Google. However, Altavista also has quirks that I do not understand. For example by switching keyweod positios in a profile, or dropping brackets, one gets different numbers of hits for the same search words! Try this in AltaVista [ www.altavista.com/ ]: " qing-hao " OR QINGHAO (2100 hits) ( " qing-hao " OR QINGHAO) (2060 hits) [The brackets removed 40 hits] And: QINGHAO OR " qing-hao " (2050 hits) (QINGHAO OR " qing-hao " ) (2050 hits) [The hits were less than when the hyphenated term went first, but the brackets made no difference!] These quirks (and those described below) make me wonder if am using the AltaVista and/or Google engines correctly. I would greatly appreciate your tips on (1) Which WWW engine(s) you find the best for complex searches related to health & medicine, and (b) How to formulate a complex (Boolean) WWW Search to link concepts (a) and (b) above to the best advantage. More details on comparisons between Google and Altavista follow. Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> QUIRKS OF GOOGLE & ALTAVISTA Engines, by , Dublin, Nov 3, 2004 This note compares the outputs from complex searches on the Advanced (Boolean Search) option on AltaVista [ www.altavista.com/web/adv ] versus the Basic Google Engine [ www.google.com/ ]. [The Google Advanced Search [ www.google.com/advanced_search ] was no better than the Basic Search, and was more difficult to use because the OR statements had to be removed from the decided searches, as below]. Several quirks emerged from these searches. They are described, with specific examples, below. (a) Google allows only 10 search terms, including hyphenated terms. If the 10th term is the second (or later) part of a hyphenated term, (for example, “qing” in the term “qing-hao-su”), many irrelevant hits (relating to its first part (“qing”, in the cited example) are returned. Therefore, it is not possible to search Google for complex strings, with many “OR” statements. (b) In the search examples, below, Google omitted the CAPITALISED search terms. That omission resulted in less hits than one would expect, as indicated by the asterisk (*) in the Google Hits column, below. © Google also returns different numbers of hits for exactly the same profiles (for example A, B, C below) in searches done, say 10 or 20 minutes later, The numbers can go up or down, for no apparent reason! (d) CONCLUSIONS: Overall, it would seem that AltaVista was easier to use for complex searches, and returned more hits than Google. The RELEVANCE of the hits (from both sources was not examined. 1. What happens when PLURAL forms are included as “OR” options with singular forms?: Google gives LESS hits, whereas, as one might expect, Altavista gives MORE hits. Also, Altavista returns hit numbers that are multiple times greater than Google. For example: Hits on Google Basic v Hits on Altavista Advanced A For SINGULAR forms of the search terms: ( " lymphoid- neoplasia” OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 480,000 1,630,000 B For PLURAL forms of the search terms: ( " lymphoid-neoplasias” OR " lymphoid-cancers " OR lymphosarcomas OR lymphomas OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 244,000 992,000 C For BOTH OPTIONS (singular or plural): ( " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-neoplasias” OR " LYMPHOID- CANCERS " OR LYMPHOSARCOMAS OR LYMPHOMAS) 365,000* 1,860,000 2. Reversal of the SEQUENCE of the SAME search terms changes the number of hits on Google AND Altavista: D ( " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 480,000 1,630,000 E (hodgkins OR hodgkin's OR lymphoma OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia " OR lymphosarcoma) 475,000 1,660,000 F (lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia " OR lymphosarcoma) 477,000 1,650,000 G (lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia " ) 473,000 1,620,000 H ( " lymphoid-cancer " OR " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR lymphosarcoma OR lymphoma OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins) 473,000 1,620,000 I Same as © except that the plurals were put in first: ( " lymphoid-neoplasias” OR " lymphoid-cancers " OR lymphosarcomas OR lymphomas OR hodgkin's OR hodgkins OR " lymphoid-neoplasia” OR " LYMPHOID-CANCER " OR LYMPHOSARCOMA OR LYMPHOMA) 234,000 1,810,000 3. SECOND PART OF CONCEPT - QINGHAO or " OR qinghaosu, etc J SINGULAR: (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR QINGHAO OR " artemisia-annua " OR " qing-hao-su " OR " qing-hao " OR ARTEMISININE OR CHINGHAO OR " CHING-HAO " OR " CHING- HAO-SU " OR " ARTEMISIAE-ANNUAE " OR " SWEET- WORMWOOD " OR " SWEET-ANNIE " ) 30,300* 52,900 K PLURAL (where plural form exists) or SINGULAR (where only singulars exist): (qinghaosu OR artemisinins OR QINGHAO OR " artemisia-annua " OR " qing-hao-su " OR " qing-hao " OR ARTEMISININES OR CHINGHAO OR " CHING-HAO " OR " CHING- HAO-SU " OR " ARTEMISIAE-ANNUAE " OR " SWEET- WORMWOOD " OR " SWEET-ANNIE " ) 16,600* 37,900 L BOTH options, but optimized to get the best value for 10 words in the Google string: (qinghaosu OR artemisinin OR QINGHAO OR " artemisia-annua " OR artemisinins OR " qing-hao-su " OR artemisinine OR CHINGHAO OR " QING-HAO " OR " CHING-HAO " OR " CHING-HAO-SU " OR " ARTEMISIAE-ANNUAE " OR " SWEET- WORMWOOD " OR " SWEET-ANNIE " OR ARTEMISININES) 31,300* 53,000 4. COMBINATION of the TWO CONCEPTS (Lymphoma etc + Qinghao etc) using maximum hit numbers for each concepts, i.e.: M Combine (A + L) for Google, and (A + L, and C + L) for Altavista Google=405* (see hits on: tinyurl.com/6ghr8 ), whereas AltaVista=961 (A+L), or 944 (C+L) (see hits on: tinyurl.com/7xopz and tinyurl.com/3jbav * Note: Profile (A) was entered on the Basic Google search, and Profile (L) was added by taking the option “Search WITHIN Results”, at the bottom left side of each Google Results Page. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stan, I would appreciate any tips that you can give to help me formulate complex searches on WWW Engines. I have no problem with the professional databases, because their “front-end” search facilities are very powerful. But Web Engines do not allow that precision of focus. Or if they do, I have failed to find it so far! Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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