Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and Chakras

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Attilio's comments concerning meridians reminded me of this article

that I read on Acupuncture Today:

 

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2003/may/05amaro.html

 

Here is a snipit:

 

" The illustration of the chakra and acupuncture meridian system, or

" psychic energy system " by Alex Grey (see figure two) in his classic

book Sacred Mirrors, may well be one of the most accurate

representations of the acupuncture energy system ever illustrated in

acupuncture's long history. Very little is ever mentioned of the

chakra system in either ancient or contemporary Chinese acupuncture

texts; however, it is mentioned often in master-to-student education,

especially through Southwest and Southeast Asia. It was in Southwest

Asia around the borders of Tibet where I was first introduced to this

concept. I learned more about it later in Cambodia and Thailand (Burma). "

 

I really like Alex Gray's depiction of the Energetic Body. I have been

told that the illustrations are unbelievably accurate.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

Yes, I actually have Alex Grey's book. Another one you may interesting is

Richard Gerber's Vibrational Medicine.

 

I started down this road aswell when I first set out in TCM, mixing

vibrational medicine, chakras and spiritual aspects altogether. Now that I'm

a little more down that road, I see them quite different. I think that they

work on different levels of 'energy' and although they are linked together,

they are not TCM. TCM is quite separate and should remain that way so we may

endeavour to understand each 'energy' section of the dynamic body. Mixing

them altogether just gets everyone confused, dilutes our tradition and so

on.

 

Attilio

 

P.S. Great places Burma, Thailand and Cambodia. In Cambodia I first saw the

effects of cupping on a young man's back, baffled me but I found it very

interesting. Perhaps that's where my interest in TCM began.

 

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

02 November 2004 20:23

Chinese Medicine

Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and Chakras

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Attilio's comments concerning meridians reminded me of this article

that I read on Acupuncture Today:

 

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2003/may/05amaro.html

 

Here is a snipit:

 

" The illustration of the chakra and acupuncture meridian system, or

" psychic energy system " by Alex Grey (see figure two) in his classic

book Sacred Mirrors, may well be one of the most accurate

representations of the acupuncture energy system ever illustrated in

acupuncture's long history. Very little is ever mentioned of the

chakra system in either ancient or contemporary Chinese acupuncture

texts; however, it is mentioned often in master-to-student education,

especially through Southwest and Southeast Asia. It was in Southwest

Asia around the borders of Tibet where I was first introduced to this

concept. I learned more about it later in Cambodia and Thailand (Burma). "

 

I really like Alex Gray's depiction of the Energetic Body. I have been

told that the illustrations are unbelievably accurate.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

> I think that they work on different levels of 'energy' and although

>they are linked together, they are not TCM. TCM is quite separate and

>should remain that way so we may endeavour to understand each

>'energy' section of the dynamic body. Mixing them altogether just

>gets everyone confused, dilutes our tradition and so on.

>

> Attilio

 

For me they are exactly the same - like musical instruments. Whether

it is a piano, violin, or harpsicord, it is all about " playing music "

(strumming and creating vibrations), and each instrument can either be

played seperately or together in harmony. Both approaches can be quite

beautiful and neither has an edge over the other. I love all kinds of

concerts. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

So your saying that you know how to differentiate between all the

instruments and know how to play each one individual?

 

I don't think so, I think you'll always be a tuina/base player.

 

I believe that we need to concentrate on the core issues of TCM without

going into others areas within this forum.

 

Attilio

 

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

03 November 2004 04:14

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and Chakras

 

 

 

 

Hi Attilio,

 

> I think that they work on different levels of 'energy' and although

>they are linked together, they are not TCM. TCM is quite separate and

>should remain that way so we may endeavour to understand each

>'energy' section of the dynamic body. Mixing them altogether just

>gets everyone confused, dilutes our tradition and so on.

>

> Attilio

 

For me they are exactly the same - like musical instruments. Whether

it is a piano, violin, or harpsicord, it is all about " playing music "

(strumming and creating vibrations), and each instrument can either be

played seperately or together in harmony. Both approaches can be quite

beautiful and neither has an edge over the other. I love all kinds of

concerts. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

> So your saying that you know how to differentiate between all the

> instruments and know how to play each one individual?

 

There must be some problems with our communication. When did I ever

say this? All I said was that all of the different approaches must

work on the body energetics in their own way and each practitioner

chooses the approach that is most suitable for himself/herself.

>

> I don't think so, I think you'll always be a tuina/base player.

>

 

Tuina/qigong. :-) Yes, each person chooses the instrument or

instruments that suit them best.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

If you look at the chakras they are based on acupressure points, the chakras in

my opinion are a simplified theory of the TCM energy system. However TCM is far

more evolved due to its look history and records. I recently read that

Unification book that everyone is argueing about and he stated it in a very

simple and common sense way.He said their are only 3 parts, BODY, ENERGY &

SPIRIT(or Mind). You have the physical body, then you have the physical energy

(aura, meridians). Then you have the mind or spirit or soul part, call it what

you will according to your beliefs. The author said he believes the spirit is

eternal but this is another debate. He believes the spirit is another form of

energy (non physical), the theory works no matter what your beliefs. So

according to this you can say all treatment either work on the body, energy &

spirit. All three are connected and inseperable, I believe this simple principle

can explain nearlly any treatment very clearly. Either you are working

on the mental aspect, the energy system or on the physical body, it is common

sense to see how all three affect each other. So people tell me what do you

think of this concept, personally its simple and I like it.

 

Cheers Kenneth

 

Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

 

 

Hi Attilio,

 

> I think that they work on different levels of 'energy' and although

>they are linked together, they are not TCM. TCM is quite separate and

>should remain that way so we may endeavour to understand each

>'energy' section of the dynamic body. Mixing them altogether just

>gets everyone confused, dilutes our tradition and so on.

>

> Attilio

 

For me they are exactly the same - like musical instruments. Whether

it is a piano, violin, or harpsicord, it is all about " playing music "

(strumming and creating vibrations), and each instrument can either be

played seperately or together in harmony. Both approaches can be quite

beautiful and neither has an edge over the other. I love all kinds of

concerts. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Kenneth,

 

This is a very simplified view of looking at the whole body and the whole

array of healing arts. Yes, of course there are three parts, the body, mind

and spirit. But you cannot club together meridians with auras. They are very

different levels and are affected and balanced by very different methods of

treatment. Unification books are great, for theory that is, but in reality

they do not work. In theory, everything is One, you don't need a book to

understand that. But in day to day life, we live in a specialised world,

where everyone has a specialised job, career and illness. Life and theories

are like a cascade. They trickle down the theory of oneness to everyday

life. Don't get mixed up between, they are so so different and cannot we

worked together unless you have a very experienced and extremely detailed

understanding of the various levels and how to affect them.

 

As for chakras being acupressure/acupoints, I don't think so. Like I said

before, different energy systems.

 

Attilio

 

 

 

Kenneth Travis [traviskenneth]

08 November 2004 05:45

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and Chakras

 

 

 

Hi

 

If you look at the chakras they are based on acupressure points, the chakras

in my opinion are a simplified theory of the TCM energy system. However TCM

is far more evolved due to its look history and records. I recently read

that Unification book that everyone is argueing about and he stated it in a

very simple and common sense way.He said their are only 3 parts, BODY,

ENERGY & SPIRIT(or Mind). You have the physical body, then you have the

physical energy (aura, meridians). Then you have the mind or spirit or soul

part, call it what you will according to your beliefs. The author said he

believes the spirit is eternal but this is another debate. He believes the

spirit is another form of energy (non physical), the theory works no matter

what your beliefs. So according to this you can say all treatment either

work on the body, energy & spirit. All three are connected and inseperable,

I believe this simple principle can explain nearlly any treatment very

clearly. Either you are working

on the mental aspect, the energy system or on the physical body, it is

common sense to see how all three affect each other. So people tell me what

do you think of this concept, personally its simple and I like it.

 

Cheers Kenneth

 

Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

 

 

Hi Attilio,

 

> I think that they work on different levels of 'energy' and although

>they are linked together, they are not TCM. TCM is quite separate and

>should remain that way so we may endeavour to understand each

>'energy' section of the dynamic body. Mixing them altogether just

>gets everyone confused, dilutes our tradition and so on.

>

> Attilio

 

For me they are exactly the same - like musical instruments. Whether

it is a piano, violin, or harpsicord, it is all about " playing music "

(strumming and creating vibrations), and each instrument can either be

played seperately or together in harmony. Both approaches can be quite

beautiful and neither has an edge over the other. I love all kinds of

concerts. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kenneth,

 

> Either you are working on the mental aspect, the energy system or on

the physical body, it is common sense to see how all three affect each

other. So people tell me what do you think of this concept,

personally its simple and I like it.

>

> Cheers Kenneth

 

Yes, I very much agree. Treating of mind/body is the hallmark of

wholistic therapies. It is crucial in such modalities such as homeopathy.

 

The Neijing refines the concept by introducing the notions of

corporeal soul (Po), ethereal soul (Hun), and the spirit (Shen) - the

Shen being the monarch. The Neijing goes so far as to suggest that

whether a person can be healed or not depends upon the state of the

spirit:

 

" " if the complexion of the patient is lustrous, and the pulse beat is

calm, it is called the " spiritedness " , the disease can be healed. When

the complexion of the patient has no lustre, and his pulse fails to

coreespond with seasonable variations, it is called the " depletion of

spirit " , and the disease can by no means be cured. " {Chapter 8, Wu/Wu]

 

Ni's translation of the same passage goes as such:

 

" Observe the patient's spirit. When there is spirit, the prognosis is

positive. When the spirit is gone, the condition is very grave. "

 

I personally prefer Ni's transtation.

 

In Chapter 8 of the Neijing (Ni's translation),

 

" The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the

consciousness of one's being. It is responsible for intelligence,

wisdom, and spiritual transformation. .. So these twelve zang and fu

organs must work toegether harmoniously, just like a kingdom. "

 

" If the spirit is disturbed and unclear, the other organs will not

function properly. This creates damage. The pathways and roads along

which the qi flows will become blocked and health will suffer. The

citizens of the kingdom will also suffer. These are the relationships

of a kingdom. "

 

From these passages, one can establish a link between Consciousness

(the Mind) and the Body (the viscera and all that they govern).

 

It is a fairly common occurrence to observe during treatments how

tuina (or any bodywork) simultaneously affects the body and mind.

Clients relate some sort of " relief " that manifests itself as one of

the emotion (e.g. joy, anger, relief) as their body relaxes. The

opposite can also be observed. It is, I believe, the basis of all

holistic medicines - the singular view of mind/body. Chakras, are

another representation of this view and, within some health theories,

can also be used to treat the mind/body.

 

Any comments?

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Meridians can be felt and not seen.

Chakras can be neither felt nor seen.

 

As to aura, it's no more than the Wei floating out of the skin.

 

If it's replenished, it can be seen as continuous over the body surface.

If not, sectors will be missing.

 

Here's a rub. If you can see another's aura, your own can easily be invaded.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

>

> Here's a rub. If you can see another's aura, your own can easily be

invaded.

 

One might even go further by saying, that at the instand one sees

another's aura, then the " merging " (or invasion as one might have it)

has already occurred. This is literally what happens when one uses

gigong to " move " (wei) qi. Using qi to move qi (in any realm) can have

interesting results. What happens when one inserts a needle?

 

It is interesting what you have to say about the Chakras.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

I don't know why you quote the Neijing to support the discussion of chakras.

Where does it say anything about chakras in any of the classics? Stop mixing

the two, as I've already said many times before, they are two COMPLETELY

different systems. Just because it falls under the heading of a holistic

medicine in the West, doesn't mean they can be mixed together.

 

Please lets concentrate on TCM issues ONLY. Just TCM alone is hard enough to

properly learn and understand, why dilute it with every other holistic

medicine?

 

Attilio

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

08 November 2004 15:28

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and Chakras

 

 

 

Hi Kenneth,

 

> Either you are working on the mental aspect, the energy system or on

the physical body, it is common sense to see how all three affect each

other. So people tell me what do you think of this concept,

personally its simple and I like it.

>

> Cheers Kenneth

 

Yes, I very much agree. Treating of mind/body is the hallmark of

wholistic therapies. It is crucial in such modalities such as homeopathy.

 

The Neijing refines the concept by introducing the notions of

corporeal soul (Po), ethereal soul (Hun), and the spirit (Shen) - the

Shen being the monarch. The Neijing goes so far as to suggest that

whether a person can be healed or not depends upon the state of the

spirit:

 

" " if the complexion of the patient is lustrous, and the pulse beat is

calm, it is called the " spiritedness " , the disease can be healed. When

the complexion of the patient has no lustre, and his pulse fails to

coreespond with seasonable variations, it is called the " depletion of

spirit " , and the disease can by no means be cured. " {Chapter 8, Wu/Wu]

 

Ni's translation of the same passage goes as such:

 

" Observe the patient's spirit. When there is spirit, the prognosis is

positive. When the spirit is gone, the condition is very grave. "

 

I personally prefer Ni's transtation.

 

In Chapter 8 of the Neijing (Ni's translation),

 

" The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the

consciousness of one's being. It is responsible for intelligence,

wisdom, and spiritual transformation. .. So these twelve zang and fu

organs must work toegether harmoniously, just like a kingdom. "

 

" If the spirit is disturbed and unclear, the other organs will not

function properly. This creates damage. The pathways and roads along

which the qi flows will become blocked and health will suffer. The

citizens of the kingdom will also suffer. These are the relationships

of a kingdom. "

 

From these passages, one can establish a link between Consciousness

(the Mind) and the Body (the viscera and all that they govern).

 

It is a fairly common occurrence to observe during treatments how

tuina (or any bodywork) simultaneously affects the body and mind.

Clients relate some sort of " relief " that manifests itself as one of

the emotion (e.g. joy, anger, relief) as their body relaxes. The

opposite can also be observed. It is, I believe, the basis of all

holistic medicines - the singular view of mind/body. Chakras, are

another representation of this view and, within some health theories,

can also be used to treat the mind/body.

 

Any comments?

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with Mr. D’Alberto!

 

One of many problems of mixing TCM with other holistic medical

traditions (I have great respect for those traditions!!) is not just the

dilution of TCM but also confusion of theory and terms. It takes a

more-than-remarkable thinker and scholar to fuse TCM with other holistic

medical disciplines or with biomedicine for that matter. It demands

complete mastery of both disciplines in all other cases confusion of

terms, techniques, diagnosis, etc. will prevail and the real loser is:

Yep, you guessed it: The patient!!

 

I do not see the necessity of mixing TCM with something else. Why? As

mentioned in the previous pos TCM can be quite difficult to grasp and

without proper teachers it is simply not possible to become a good or

just a decent practitioner. Also – as everybody on this discussiongroup

knows - TCM is a complete system. However this does not mean that there

can be no development in TCM – It should just happen on TCM terms,

theory etc. not to do damage to TCM or wichever discipline people are

trying to fuse it with

 

I don’t see a problem for a therapist, doctor, etc using different

medical discplines in his/her practice as long as they are not mixed or

“fused” together since this cannot be properly done. Such fusing almost

always create theory with large gaps and practioners that are only

halfway good at what they do – once again the patient is at loss!!!!

 

I mean not to offend anybody: individuals, any group of people or any

practitioner of any given medical discipline through the following

statement – it is my experience and observation that most people who

are trying to fuse any two or more systems be it medical, martial arts,

etc. fall into one or more of following categories:

 

1) They do not have confidence in or proper respect for wichever system

they are practicing.

2) They wish to create a “better” system – more usual than not out of

selfish interests, such as establishing a name for themselves, monetary

gain, etc.

3) They do not have the patience to educate themselves properly in any

given discipline so they get the “clear picture” of what’s going on.

 

Take some time to think about this and let me know what you think! I

know – it always happens – that people will get angry and go into

defence position of sorts – they always do. But think about it

subjectively and let me hear what you think!

 

Best regards

 

Thomas Boegedal Soensen

L.Ac. & TuiNa Massage Therapist

Denmark

 

 

Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

8. november 2004 19:28

Chinese Medicine

RE: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and

Chakras

 

 

I don't know why you quote the Neijing to support the discussion of

chakras.

Where does it say anything about chakras in any of the classics? Stop

mixing

the two, as I've already said many times before, they are two COMPLETELY

different systems. Just because it falls under the heading of a holistic

medicine in the West, doesn't mean they can be mixed together.

 

Please lets concentrate on TCM issues ONLY. Just TCM alone is hard

enough to

properly learn and understand, why dilute it with every other holistic

medicine?

 

Attilio

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

08 November 2004 15:28

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and

Chakras

 

 

 

Hi Kenneth,

 

> Either you are working on the mental aspect, the energy system or on

the physical body, it is common sense to see how all three affect each

other. So people tell me what do you think of this concept,

personally its simple and I like it.

>

> Cheers Kenneth

 

Yes, I very much agree. Treating of mind/body is the hallmark of

wholistic therapies. It is crucial in such modalities such as

homeopathy.

 

The Neijing refines the concept by introducing the notions of

corporeal soul (Po), ethereal soul (Hun), and the spirit (Shen) - the

Shen being the monarch. The Neijing goes so far as to suggest that

whether a person can be healed or not depends upon the state of the

spirit:

 

" " if the complexion of the patient is lustrous, and the pulse beat is

calm, it is called the " spiritedness " , the disease can be healed. When

the complexion of the patient has no lustre, and his pulse fails to

coreespond with seasonable variations, it is called the " depletion of

spirit " , and the disease can by no means be cured. " {Chapter 8, Wu/Wu]

 

Ni's translation of the same passage goes as such:

 

" Observe the patient's spirit. When there is spirit, the prognosis is

positive. When the spirit is gone, the condition is very grave. "

 

I personally prefer Ni's transtation.

 

In Chapter 8 of the Neijing (Ni's translation),

 

" The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the

consciousness of one's being. It is responsible for intelligence,

wisdom, and spiritual transformation. .. So these twelve zang and fu

organs must work toegether harmoniously, just like a kingdom. "

 

" If the spirit is disturbed and unclear, the other organs will not

function properly. This creates damage. The pathways and roads along

which the qi flows will become blocked and health will suffer. The

citizens of the kingdom will also suffer. These are the relationships

of a kingdom. "

 

From these passages, one can establish a link between Consciousness

(the Mind) and the Body (the viscera and all that they govern).

 

It is a fairly common occurrence to observe during treatments how

tuina (or any bodywork) simultaneously affects the body and mind.

Clients relate some sort of " relief " that manifests itself as one of

the emotion (e.g. joy, anger, relief) as their body relaxes. The

opposite can also be observed. It is, I believe, the basis of all

holistic medicines - the singular view of mind/body. Chakras, are

another representation of this view and, within some health theories,

can also be used to treat the mind/body.

 

Any comments?

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

I agree with you on mixing up of the issues but then we need to come up

with a better definition of Chinese medicine. TCM is a mix of western

allopathic medicine and Chinese medicine developed in communist China in

1949.

This system is very new not thousands of years old as some people continue

to believe.

We need to be clear about what we practice and the words we choose to

describe it.

Some definitions need to be clear, now the word qi, that¹s another issue. I

have found many schools

in the states as well as practitioners who will use the abbreviation TCM to

somehow describe this

integrated medicine as if it is ancient. Anyone who has gone to China can

vouch for the modernization

of the hospital settings with integration of TCM practitioners. It is also

hard to argue against when many

Chinese trained practitioners can and do receive MD licensure in the states

I would hope that we can

better establish a more truthful understanding for ourselves and our

patients. There is greater power in

Clarity.

Thanks

MB

 

 

On 11/8/04 12:28 PM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

wrote:

 

>

> I don't know why you quote the Neijing to support the discussion of chakras.

> Where does it say anything about chakras in any of the classics? Stop mixing

> the two, as I've already said many times before, they are two COMPLETELY

> different systems. Just because it falls under the heading of a holistic

> medicine in the West, doesn't mean they can be mixed together.

>

> Please lets concentrate on TCM issues ONLY. Just TCM alone is hard enough to

> properly learn and understand, why dilute it with every other holistic

> medicine?

>

> Attilio

>

>

> Rich [rfinkelstein]

> 08 November 2004 15:28

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and Chakras

>

>

>

> Hi Kenneth,

>

>> > Either you are working on the mental aspect, the energy system or on

> the physical body, it is common sense to see how all three affect each

> other. So people tell me what do you think of this concept,

> personally its simple and I like it.

>> >

>> > Cheers Kenneth

>

> Yes, I very much agree. Treating of mind/body is the hallmark of

> wholistic therapies. It is crucial in such modalities such as homeopathy.

>

> The Neijing refines the concept by introducing the notions of

> corporeal soul (Po), ethereal soul (Hun), and the spirit (Shen) - the

> Shen being the monarch. The Neijing goes so far as to suggest that

> whether a person can be healed or not depends upon the state of the

> spirit:

>

> " " if the complexion of the patient is lustrous, and the pulse beat is

> calm, it is called the " spiritedness " , the disease can be healed. When

> the complexion of the patient has no lustre, and his pulse fails to

> coreespond with seasonable variations, it is called the " depletion of

> spirit " , and the disease can by no means be cured. " {Chapter 8, Wu/Wu]

>

> Ni's translation of the same passage goes as such:

>

> " Observe the patient's spirit. When there is spirit, the prognosis is

> positive. When the spirit is gone, the condition is very grave. "

>

> I personally prefer Ni's transtation.

>

> In Chapter 8 of the Neijing (Ni's translation),

>

> " The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the

> consciousness of one's being. It is responsible for intelligence,

> wisdom, and spiritual transformation. .. So these twelve zang and fu

> organs must work toegether harmoniously, just like a kingdom. "

>

> " If the spirit is disturbed and unclear, the other organs will not

> function properly. This creates damage. The pathways and roads along

> which the qi flows will become blocked and health will suffer. The

> citizens of the kingdom will also suffer. These are the relationships

> of a kingdom. "

>

> From these passages, one can establish a link between Consciousness

> (the Mind) and the Body (the viscera and all that they govern).

>

> It is a fairly common occurrence to observe during treatments how

> tuina (or any bodywork) simultaneously affects the body and mind.

> Clients relate some sort of " relief " that manifests itself as one of

> the emotion (e.g. joy, anger, relief) as their body relaxes. The

> opposite can also be observed. It is, I believe, the basis of all

> holistic medicines - the singular view of mind/body. Chakras, are

> another representation of this view and, within some health theories,

> can also be used to treat the mind/body.

>

> Any comments?

>

> Regards,

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Even though most popular Yoga systems describe only 7 or 8 chakras

this shouldn't be mistaken for the entirety of the indian system with

its many variations.

 

Consider that in india there is or was a system of medicine or

understanding of the body based on the idea of balancing what is

usually translated as the " male " and " female " energies of the

universe within the body, involving energy centres or vortexes

( " chakra " means " wheel " , the few talked about in Yoga at the

relatively shallow level that most people practice at are considered

the Main Centres) and energy lines (prana nadis), " pressure points "

(war elephants in ancient india were apparently controlled and

maintained using a system of acupressure)...as well as detailed

knowledge of medicinal herbs, all integrated with a science of the

mind and spirit - and consider that a very similar but different

tradition exists in Tibet (again with energy centres and points,

energy lines, herbs, psychology and meditation), another system even

more similar to that of the chinese exists in Japan (containing

methods no longer used in TCM) and that similar forms of massage can

be found from thailand to china and tibet (thai massage came from

india, again with the spread of buddhism, and is based completely on

indian yoga theory with massage of the energy lines - three on the

inside and outside of each arm and leg crossing and meeting around

the torso and head)....

 

when I look at this picture I see variations around a central theme

rather than completely different forms of medicine. I agree that TCM

is a complete system and doesn't NEED any additions but I also reckon

that much of traditional...shall I say oriental? medicine is a result

of the mixing of these different traditions, depending to a great

degree on the people of the area and their direct or filtered contact

with other cultures in the greater region. The current

systematisation of TCM is very useful to all of us learning in

schools but it is also apparent that it may impose the idea of being

a closed system that cannot be integrated with, take from, or give

to, any other tradition.

 

 

This said, I agree absolutely that in order to be effective as a

practitioner, martial artist, musician or artist of any type we each

need to pick one style and become adept in it as it is, before

developing our own individual way.

 

 

(how does one sign off on an internet group full of people one

doesn't know? respectfully, sincerely...?)

 

happily,

 

Simon Thakur

[Guest guest]

Here's an odd element in Chakras.

 

All flow from inside the body to outwards, centripetally

 

Not one flows inwards.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Undoubtedly, Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine have similarities to

Chinese medicine, even though they had independent development over

many centuries. There was cross-fertilization of these traditions to

some extent, but not to the degree that their essential character was

altered. Japan, after many centuries of importing Chinese medicine,

developed aspects of the medicine that strengthened its unique

qualities, and emphasized texts such as the Shang Han Lun, Pi Wei Lun,

and Nan Jing.

 

I don't think, however, this is the issue being debated here. I think

it is more the regrettable idea of using spiritualist generalities to

say 'everything is the same' because it all derives from spirit. One

cannot equate the chakras and nadis of Indian traditions with the

channels and network vessels of Chinese medicine in a generalist

fashion. It would take a great familiarity with both systems at an

academic level to make comparisons. To use the Nei Jing as the central

metaphor for this 'unification' would require even more academic level

study. We have to be careful when we equate concepts from different

medicines and cultures that we are not simply lumping together those

ideas that are appealing to our univeralist streak without

differentiating those ideas first.

 

 

On Nov 8, 2004, at 4:56 PM, wackname wrote:

 

>

> when I look at this picture I see variations around a central theme

> rather than completely different forms of medicine. I agree that TCM

> is a complete system and doesn't NEED any additions but I also reckon

> that much of traditional...shall I say oriental? medicine is a result

> of the mixing of these different traditions, depending to a great

> degree on the people of the area and their direct or filtered contact

> with other cultures in the greater region. The current

> systematisation of TCM is very useful to all of us learning in

> schools but it is also apparent that it may impose the idea of being

> a closed system that cannot be integrated with, take from, or give

> to, any other tradition.

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

I agree with what you are saying Z'ev about universiality tendencies.

The Native communities in America also suffer from these kinds of

thinking, and when people say that Native Spirituality is all the same

they are speaking from ignorance and a desire to join up and be

together. Which is percieved as disrespectful and is usually not

corrected because of the fact 'who listens to people who don't have an

English language written abiltiy or economic power enough to stand up to

it so to speak.. The problem of Chinese, Tibetan, and Ayurvedic

medicines is that many Americans and Europeans, haven't made the journey

to meet the people these ideas come from or learn the language, and see

the specific details that distinguish between them. And then of course

people are seeing results from what they are doing, its working even

though it isn't pure Chinese medicine in the particulars and Americans

have a different cultural mindset themselves that can't help blend with

what they are learning. Seeing one's own culure is the hardest to

discern in some ways.

 

I find it fascinating that the Pacific Symposium has shown that people

are moving strongly in the direction of Human Potential or New Age

application of the medicine. This is something that the Chinese aren't

doing, They are doing what they can do, look more closely at Western

Medicine in positive ways and working to see how they can work

together. I don't know that for sure, but it sure seems like it.

I wish I could have been at the Chinese specific workshops because I am

surrounded by the Human Potential movement and a colleage of mine is

teaching aromatherapy point work in her massage teaching. I am

surrounded by people who don't care about learning Chinese terms. This

makes my learning difficult. I get caught up in the New Age as well and

I don't like it very much, it's just, where do I go? I love Alaska, I

love the plants here. I am thinking of teaching beginning Chinese just

to gather some other bodies around the idea of learning Chinese and

beginning to put terms to meaning on a deeper level than what the

dictionary says it is. I believe the characters speak for themselves some.

 

But I thind that what is marketable out there is part of this movement.

I think teaching the real thing is a little more difficult because how

many have immersed themselves into Chinese Culture and who can take them

there.

 

These represent my musings and I am not an expert. These are just what

seems true to me.

 

Rozz

 

 

wrote:

 

>Undoubtedly, Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine have similarities to

>Chinese medicine, even though they had independent development over

>many centuries. There was cross-fertilization of these traditions to

>some extent, but not to the degree that their essential character was

>altered. Japan, after many centuries of importing Chinese medicine,

>developed aspects of the medicine that strengthened its unique

>qualities, and emphasized texts such as the Shang Han Lun, Pi Wei Lun,

>and Nan Jing.

>

>I don't think, however, this is the issue being debated here. I think

>it is more the regrettable idea of using spiritualist generalities to

>say 'everything is the same' because it all derives from spirit. One

>cannot equate the chakras and nadis of Indian traditions with the

>channels and network vessels of Chinese medicine in a generalist

>fashion. It would take a great familiarity with both systems at an

>academic level to make comparisons. To use the Nei Jing as the central

>metaphor for this 'unification' would require even more academic level

>study. We have to be careful when we equate concepts from different

>medicines and cultures that we are not simply lumping together those

>ideas that are appealing to our univeralist streak without

>differentiating those ideas first.

>

>

>On Nov 8, 2004, at 4:56 PM, wackname wrote:

>

>

>

>> when I look at this picture I see variations around a central theme

>> rather than completely different forms of medicine. I agree that TCM

>> is a complete system and doesn't NEED any additions but I also reckon

>> that much of traditional...shall I say oriental? medicine is a result

>> of the mixing of these different traditions, depending to a great

>> degree on the people of the area and their direct or filtered contact

>> with other cultures in the greater region. The current

>> systematisation of TCM is very useful to all of us learning in

>> schools but it is also apparent that it may impose the idea of being

>> a closed system that cannot be integrated with, take from, or give

>> to, any other tradition.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Thomas

 

You have some very strong points and in the vast majority of the cases you would

be correct. However their are certainly a few exceptions to these rules.

Providing the utmost care is taken to prevent watering down or vested interests

from polluting it (not easy) somethings can be mixed to evolve past their

seperate limits. You used martial arts as an example, well if you take Jeet Kun

Do " Bruce Lees style " for example he tried to take the best from everything and

remove the weaknesses, most will agree he succedded. As for the concept of

Unification I believe the true concept of the author has been misrepresented by

Manu and his posts, I dont believe it was intentional. The idea is not to jion

the two its how the two can work together more closely without conflicts in the

west. This is what we all want is it not, his real approach is just to make

things more clear. Unification should never come at the price of watering down

TCM and I dont believe he has done that.

 

Cheers Kenneth

Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <thomasboegedal wrote:

 

I agree with Mr. D’Alberto!

 

One of many problems of mixing TCM with other holistic medical

traditions (I have great respect for those traditions!!) is not just the

dilution of TCM but also confusion of theory and terms. It takes a

more-than-remarkable thinker and scholar to fuse TCM with other holistic

medical disciplines or with biomedicine for that matter. It demands

complete mastery of both disciplines in all other cases confusion of

terms, techniques, diagnosis, etc. will prevail and the real loser is:

Yep, you guessed it: The patient!!

 

I do not see the necessity of mixing TCM with something else. Why? As

mentioned in the previous pos TCM can be quite difficult to grasp and

without proper teachers it is simply not possible to become a good or

just a decent practitioner. Also – as everybody on this discussiongroup

knows - TCM is a complete system. However this does not mean that there

can be no development in TCM – It should just happen on TCM terms,

theory etc. not to do damage to TCM or wichever discipline people are

trying to fuse it with

 

I don’t see a problem for a therapist, doctor, etc using different

medical discplines in his/her practice as long as they are not mixed or

“fused” together since this cannot be properly done. Such fusing almost

always create theory with large gaps and practioners that are only

halfway good at what they do – once again the patient is at loss!!!!

 

I mean not to offend anybody: individuals, any group of people or any

practitioner of any given medical discipline through the following

statement – it is my experience and observation that most people who

are trying to fuse any two or more systems be it medical, martial arts,

etc. fall into one or more of following categories:

 

1) They do not have confidence in or proper respect for wichever system

they are practicing.

2) They wish to create a “better” system – more usual than not out of

selfish interests, such as establishing a name for themselves, monetary

gain, etc.

3) They do not have the patience to educate themselves properly in any

given discipline so they get the “clear picture” of what’s going on.

 

Take some time to think about this and let me know what you think! I

know – it always happens – that people will get angry and go into

defence position of sorts – they always do. But think about it

subjectively and let me hear what you think!

 

Best regards

 

Thomas Boegedal Soensen

L.Ac. & TuiNa Massage Therapist

Denmark

 

 

Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

8. november 2004 19:28

Chinese Medicine

RE: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and

Chakras

 

 

I don't know why you quote the Neijing to support the discussion of

chakras.

Where does it say anything about chakras in any of the classics? Stop

mixing

the two, as I've already said many times before, they are two COMPLETELY

different systems. Just because it falls under the heading of a holistic

medicine in the West, doesn't mean they can be mixed together.

 

Please lets concentrate on TCM issues ONLY. Just TCM alone is hard

enough to

properly learn and understand, why dilute it with every other holistic

medicine?

 

Attilio

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

08 November 2004 15:28

Chinese Medicine

Re: Acupuncture Meridian System, Energetic Body, and

Chakras

 

 

 

Hi Kenneth,

 

> Either you are working on the mental aspect, the energy system or on

the physical body, it is common sense to see how all three affect each

other. So people tell me what do you think of this concept,

personally its simple and I like it.

>

> Cheers Kenneth

 

Yes, I very much agree. Treating of mind/body is the hallmark of

wholistic therapies. It is crucial in such modalities such as

homeopathy.

 

The Neijing refines the concept by introducing the notions of

corporeal soul (Po), ethereal soul (Hun), and the spirit (Shen) - the

Shen being the monarch. The Neijing goes so far as to suggest that

whether a person can be healed or not depends upon the state of the

spirit:

 

" " if the complexion of the patient is lustrous, and the pulse beat is

calm, it is called the " spiritedness " , the disease can be healed. When

the complexion of the patient has no lustre, and his pulse fails to

coreespond with seasonable variations, it is called the " depletion of

spirit " , and the disease can by no means be cured. " {Chapter 8, Wu/Wu]

 

Ni's translation of the same passage goes as such:

 

" Observe the patient's spirit. When there is spirit, the prognosis is

positive. When the spirit is gone, the condition is very grave. "

 

I personally prefer Ni's transtation.

 

In Chapter 8 of the Neijing (Ni's translation),

 

" The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the

consciousness of one's being. It is responsible for intelligence,

wisdom, and spiritual transformation. .. So these twelve zang and fu

organs must work toegether harmoniously, just like a kingdom. "

 

" If the spirit is disturbed and unclear, the other organs will not

function properly. This creates damage. The pathways and roads along

which the qi flows will become blocked and health will suffer. The

citizens of the kingdom will also suffer. These are the relationships

of a kingdom. "

 

From these passages, one can establish a link between Consciousness

(the Mind) and the Body (the viscera and all that they govern).

 

It is a fairly common occurrence to observe during treatments how

tuina (or any bodywork) simultaneously affects the body and mind.

Clients relate some sort of " relief " that manifests itself as one of

the emotion (e.g. joy, anger, relief) as their body relaxes. The

opposite can also be observed. It is, I believe, the basis of all

holistic medicines - the singular view of mind/body. Chakras, are

another representation of this view and, within some health theories,

can also be used to treat the mind/body.

 

Any comments?

 

Regards,

Rich