Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi all, I thought I would mention my friend's progress. She has been using inhalers for her asthma for about 17 years. She says on average she had been purchasing one inhaler, which delivered 60 doses, per month. About 3 weeks ago she decided she would wean herself off inhalers. This is after having tuina/qigong treatments (once a week) for about three months. Her desire to use an inhaler has been on and off, but she has not used one in about four weeks. Last week, I did some deeper abdominal treatment on her, to sliminate qi and blood stagnation, which she said helped immensely. Since then she told me that she has been doing it regularly on herself with excellent results. She is also a Shiatsu practitioner. Now she feels she has a technique that empowers her to treat her own problems whenever the need arises. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Excellent news Rich. What acupoints and meridians did you stimulate on the abdomen? Also, has she had any acupuncture or herbs or is she planning to? Regards Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 02 November 2004 14:56 Chinese Medicine Tuina and Asthma Hi all, I thought I would mention my friend's progress. She has been using inhalers for her asthma for about 17 years. She says on average she had been purchasing one inhaler, which delivered 60 doses, per month. About 3 weeks ago she decided she would wean herself off inhalers. This is after having tuina/qigong treatments (once a week) for about three months. Her desire to use an inhaler has been on and off, but she has not used one in about four weeks. Last week, I did some deeper abdominal treatment on her, to sliminate qi and blood stagnation, which she said helped immensely. Since then she told me that she has been doing it regularly on herself with excellent results. She is also a Shiatsu practitioner. Now she feels she has a technique that empowers her to treat her own problems whenever the need arises. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 My friend's primary care over the last three months has been with the tuina/qigong practitioner who we are both learning from. My friend is very typical in that here body is tight and rigid - particularly her upper and lower spine. For this reason, she receives a typical session which includes bodywork on her whole body - this includes all muscles, joints, bones etc. There is particular emphasis on releasing the rigidity in the upper spine. This makes an enormous difference in here ability to " feel and breathe " in the upper part of her body. I can only describe it as a feeling that blockages (stagnating) in that are being released. After the first several sessions, there were heavy guasha treatments throughout her back. This revealed lots of stagnation throughout her body - purplish color running down her back especially along her vertebrae. More recently she has lots of cupping (sliding) along her back and on the upper part of her chest. The cupping on the upper part of her chest was painful for her. Maybe it could have been gentler. However, there was a substantial release of stagnation when the cupping was applied and the area turned a purplish/black. It lasted for about 2 weeks particularly in the area right below her neck. The abdominal work was based upon searching for areas that felt " hard and stagnated " . Small circular movements are used with increasing pressure as the area softens up. I am thinking that by releasing the blockages in the lower abdomen, the " downward qi " is able to flow again and connect up more easily and efficiently. The whole system is now functioning in a more natural manner. With the blockages, the qi was struggling to circulate and had numerous obstructions throughout the whole bodily system. It appears that the localized blockages that may have occurred when she was younger (she has a very typical " fear of parents " ) gradually grew over time, blocking more and more areas of the body. The breathing heaves were a " desperate " measure by the body to try to get the qi circulating through all of these blockages. Tuina and qigong (qigong working on the energetic layers) has helped getting the qi circulating. So no particular meridians or points were " pre-determined " . It is what ever feels hard and stagnated in the body - wherever it may be. Meridians are primary channels, but any part of the body can become blocked so it is merely a matter of finding these areas and releasing them. Hope this explains the process she went through. I would be glad to elaborate if you have any further questions. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Thank you for your reply Rich, but this really doesn't answer my question. The Tuina practitioners that I've met in China, all have a detailed understanding of acupoints and meridians. Also, in the majority of instances, blockages are located within acupoints. I'm sure your teacher understands what points he's manipulating and along which meridians. Therefore, the notion that Tuina is simply finding blockages on the body and is not related to acupoints or meridians is incorrect. Please ask your teacher and see what he's says. Kind regards, Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 02 November 2004 18:24 Chinese Medicine Re: Tuina and Asthma My friend's primary care over the last three months has been with the tuina/qigong practitioner who we are both learning from. My friend is very typical in that here body is tight and rigid - particularly her upper and lower spine. For this reason, she receives a typical session which includes bodywork on her whole body - this includes all muscles, joints, bones etc. There is particular emphasis on releasing the rigidity in the upper spine. This makes an enormous difference in here ability to " feel and breathe " in the upper part of her body. I can only describe it as a feeling that blockages (stagnating) in that are being released. After the first several sessions, there were heavy guasha treatments throughout her back. This revealed lots of stagnation throughout her body - purplish color running down her back especially along her vertebrae. More recently she has lots of cupping (sliding) along her back and on the upper part of her chest. The cupping on the upper part of her chest was painful for her. Maybe it could have been gentler. However, there was a substantial release of stagnation when the cupping was applied and the area turned a purplish/black. It lasted for about 2 weeks particularly in the area right below her neck. The abdominal work was based upon searching for areas that felt " hard and stagnated " . Small circular movements are used with increasing pressure as the area softens up. I am thinking that by releasing the blockages in the lower abdomen, the " downward qi " is able to flow again and connect up more easily and efficiently. The whole system is now functioning in a more natural manner. With the blockages, the qi was struggling to circulate and had numerous obstructions throughout the whole bodily system. It appears that the localized blockages that may have occurred when she was younger (she has a very typical " fear of parents " ) gradually grew over time, blocking more and more areas of the body. The breathing heaves were a " desperate " measure by the body to try to get the qi circulating through all of these blockages. Tuina and qigong (qigong working on the energetic layers) has helped getting the qi circulating. So no particular meridians or points were " pre-determined " . It is what ever feels hard and stagnated in the body - wherever it may be. Meridians are primary channels, but any part of the body can become blocked so it is merely a matter of finding these areas and releasing them. Hope this explains the process she went through. I would be glad to elaborate if you have any further questions. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi Attilio, Actually I have quite often discussed this with my teacher and the other tuina/acupuncture/qigong practitioner that I went to. It is as I described. It is very basic and commonsense. I have also gone to tuina practitioners who stick to what they learned in school in China. It is definitely a different approach and I feel much different after the session. I prefer the practitioners that do not adhere to the " textbook " approach. It is true that they will use acupoints during the process - but only when they " feel it is necessary " - e.g. hardness, stagnation, pain to the touch, lack of qi flow, etc, etc, etc. Not in any predetermined, cookbook type of fashion. Everyone is totally different. But this approach is merely my own preference and that of other people who I hang around with. It appears that meridians and acupuncture points are a very small subset of what needs to be addressed. Maybe this is all that they can teach in a four year curriculum. Maybe it is all that someone can learn who had not learned appropriate " sensitivity " . Something that comes with age. I have no idea why the schools in China limit their practice to " meridians " . It is as if I looked at a piping system and decided I would limit myself to the main pipes, when it is obvious that the primary blockage was in one of the small pipes. Sure I can try to treat the problem " remotely " by pushing a large amount of water through the main pipes hoping it would be sufficient to open up the small pipes (without breaking the system of course), but it is far easier to just go to the small pipe and clean it out. That is what I do in my home. :-) Tom Tam says the same thing in his books. Is it wrong? Well, I guess it is for each patient to decide. It is certainly right for me. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi Rich, I believe that all Tuina practitioners start with the points and Jinglou. Whether they move on from that is a different matter as you suggest. However, to move on comes from a deep understanding of the classics and are therefore based upon the classics, meridians and acupoints. I've noticed that many 'masters' of TCM have unique understandings in their fields and yet its all based upon a excellent understanding of the classics. I've asked these people what is their theories and they don't often answer and make it out to be their own, there not. Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 02 November 2004 19:00 Chinese Medicine Re: Tuina and Asthma Hi Attilio, Actually I have quite often discussed this with my teacher and the other tuina/acupuncture/qigong practitioner that I went to. It is as I described. It is very basic and commonsense. I have also gone to tuina practitioners who stick to what they learned in school in China. It is definitely a different approach and I feel much different after the session. I prefer the practitioners that do not adhere to the " textbook " approach. It is true that they will use acupoints during the process - but only when they " feel it is necessary " - e.g. hardness, stagnation, pain to the touch, lack of qi flow, etc, etc, etc. Not in any predetermined, cookbook type of fashion. Everyone is totally different. But this approach is merely my own preference and that of other people who I hang around with. It appears that meridians and acupuncture points are a very small subset of what needs to be addressed. Maybe this is all that they can teach in a four year curriculum. Maybe it is all that someone can learn who had not learned appropriate " sensitivity " . Something that comes with age. I have no idea why the schools in China limit their practice to " meridians " . It is as if I looked at a piping system and decided I would limit myself to the main pipes, when it is obvious that the primary blockage was in one of the small pipes. Sure I can try to treat the problem " remotely " by pushing a large amount of water through the main pipes hoping it would be sufficient to open up the small pipes (without breaking the system of course), but it is far easier to just go to the small pipe and clean it out. That is what I do in my home. :-) Tom Tam says the same thing in his books. Is it wrong? Well, I guess it is for each patient to decide. It is certainly right for me. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 I would like to share my two cents worth here. A practitioner of tui na or of shiatsu may free up the entire abdomen to better promote movement. While you might think that all blockages are related to channel points they simply are not. The stagnation may be related to an internal blockage. This type of work is very similar to Kiiko Matsumoto and other Japanese practitioners who work on opening up the abdomen for better circulation. In other words, a blockage in the abdomen over time can lead to problems of the channels. This work can be amazing. Later MB On 11/2/04 12:42 PM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > Thank you for your reply Rich, but this really doesn't answer my question. > > The Tuina practitioners that I've met in China, all have a detailed > understanding of acupoints and meridians. Also, in the majority of > instances, blockages are located within acupoints. I'm sure your teacher > understands what points he's manipulating and along which meridians. > Therefore, the notion that Tuina is simply finding blockages on the body and > is not related to acupoints or meridians is incorrect. > > Please ask your teacher and see what he's says. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio > > > Rich [rfinkelstein] > 02 November 2004 18:24 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Tuina and Asthma > > My friend's primary care over the last three months has been with the > tuina/qigong practitioner who we are both learning from. My friend is > very typical in that here body is tight and rigid - particularly her > upper and lower spine. For this reason, she receives a typical session > which includes bodywork on her whole body - this includes all muscles, > joints, bones etc. There is particular emphasis on releasing the > rigidity in the upper spine. This makes an enormous difference in here > ability to " feel and breathe " in the upper part of her body. I can > only describe it as a feeling that blockages (stagnating) in that are > being released. > > After the first several sessions, there were heavy guasha treatments > throughout her back. This revealed lots of stagnation throughout her > body - purplish color running down her back especially along her > vertebrae. More recently she has lots of cupping (sliding) along her > back and on the upper part of her chest. The cupping on the upper part > of her chest was painful for her. Maybe it could have been gentler. > However, there was a substantial release of stagnation when the > cupping was applied and the area turned a purplish/black. It lasted > for about 2 weeks particularly in the area right below her neck. > > The abdominal work was based upon searching for areas that felt " hard > and stagnated " . Small circular movements are used with increasing > pressure as the area softens up. I am thinking that by releasing the > blockages in the lower abdomen, the " downward qi " is able to flow > again and connect up more easily and efficiently. The whole system is > now functioning in a more natural manner. With the blockages, the qi > was struggling to circulate and had numerous obstructions throughout > the whole bodily system. > > It appears that the localized blockages that may have occurred when > she was younger (she has a very typical " fear of parents " ) gradually > grew over time, blocking more and more areas of the body. The > breathing heaves were a " desperate " measure by the body to try to get > the qi circulating through all of these blockages. Tuina and qigong > (qigong working on the energetic layers) has helped getting the qi > circulating. > > So no particular meridians or points were " pre-determined " . It is what > ever feels hard and stagnated in the body - wherever it may be. > Meridians are primary channels, but any part of the body can become > blocked so it is merely a matter of finding these areas and releasing > them. > > Hope this explains the process she went through. I would be glad to > elaborate if you have any further questions. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi Attilio, One of my favorite passages in the Neijing is this one: " In a word, man will survive when following the law, and dies when acts against it. If the Yang energy fails to enter into the body and Yin energy can not come out from the body, the favorable condition of health will turn to the adversity, the contradictions between exterior and interior will cause the disease of mutual excluding of Yin and Yang. " [Yellow Emperor's Canon Internal Medicine, Wu and Wu]. So it is taught in the classics that favorable conditions for health existif energy is flowing through the body without obstruction (heavenly-to-earth, positive-to-negative, in-to-out) and health were turn to illness when energy no longer flows. Energy flows everywhere in the human body and can be also obstructed anywhere - whether it be in the smallest chamber in the little finger or in the very Heart of Life. It is the nature of the Life that is manifested by the Shen. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi Mike, > In other words, a blockage in the abdomen over time > can lead to problems of the channels. This work can be amazing. > MB Thanks for your comments Mike. One can make an excellent case that all chronic blockages begin in the " abdomen " - the Shen, Po, and Hun. At least that is what it says in the Classics and that has certainly been my experience. I also very much enjoy Matsumoto's writings. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Since the Zangfu are located in the trunk of the body with the abdomen comprising half of the trunk, of course disorders (excess, deficiency, stasis, etc) will arise from here. Why I wanted to know the exact, mysterious points used on the abdomen is because I recently learnt various aspects of Fu Zhen. This is a new form of abdominal acupuncture that is practiced in Beijing. It uses Ba Gua theory aswell as two other levels (Ba Gua is the deepest level) to achieve effect. The whole body is treated on the abdomen in relation to a turtle. Therefore, abdominal points are very interesting to me, hence my questions. Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 02 November 2004 22:43 Chinese Medicine Re: Tuina and Asthma Hi Mike, > In other words, a blockage in the abdomen over time > can lead to problems of the channels. This work can be amazing. > MB Thanks for your comments Mike. One can make an excellent case that all chronic blockages begin in the " abdomen " - the Shen, Po, and Hun. At least that is what it says in the Classics and that has certainly been my experience. I also very much enjoy Matsumoto's writings. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 This is a new form of abdominal acupuncture that is practiced in Beijing. It uses Ba Gua theory aswell as two other levels (Ba Gua is the deepest level) to achieve effect. The whole body is treated on the abdomen in relation to a turtle. (Tom): Yes, Attilio. I also learned that method, at the TCM inpatient dept of the Jiangsu Provincial Hospital, Nanjing. Very interesting. Not that hard to learn, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Rich, What does this mean: 'all chronic blockages begin in the " abdomen " - the Shen, Po, and Hun'. Am a little confused. Angelo Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > > > In other words, a blockage in the abdomen over time > > can lead to problems of the channels. This work can be amazing. > > MB > > Thanks for your comments Mike. One can make an excellent case that all > chronic blockages begin in the " abdomen " - the Shen, Po, and Hun. At > least that is what it says in the Classics and that has certainly been > my experience. I also very much enjoy Matsumoto's writings. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Nice quote Rich. What do you make of the rest of the Neijing where it discusses much of the theories upon which modern TCM is based? Angelo Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > Hi Attilio, > > One of my favorite passages in the Neijing is this one: > > " In a word, man will survive when following the law, and dies when > acts against it. If the Yang energy fails to enter into the body and > Yin energy can not come out from the body, the favorable condition of > health will turn to the adversity, the contradictions between exterior > and interior will cause the disease of mutual excluding of Yin and > Yang. " [Yellow Emperor's Canon Internal Medicine, Wu and Wu]. > > So it is taught in the classics that favorable conditions for health > existif energy is flowing through the body without obstruction > (heavenly-to-earth, positive-to-negative, in-to-out) and health were > turn to illness when energy no longer flows. Energy flows everywhere > in the human body and can be also obstructed anywhere - whether it be > in the smallest chamber in the little finger or in the very Heart of > Life. It is the nature of the Life that is manifested by the Shen. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Nice quote Rich. What do you make of the rest of the Neijing where it discusses much of the theories upon which modern TCM is based? Angelo Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > Hi Attilio, > > One of my favorite passages in the Neijing is this one: > > " In a word, man will survive when following the law, and dies when > acts against it. If the Yang energy fails to enter into the body and > Yin energy can not come out from the body, the favorable condition of > health will turn to the adversity, the contradictions between exterior > and interior will cause the disease of mutual excluding of Yin and > Yang. " [Yellow Emperor's Canon Internal Medicine, Wu and Wu]. > > So it is taught in the classics that favorable conditions for health > existif energy is flowing through the body without obstruction > (heavenly-to-earth, positive-to-negative, in-to-out) and health were > turn to illness when energy no longer flows. Energy flows everywhere > in the human body and can be also obstructed anywhere - whether it be > in the smallest chamber in the little finger or in the very Heart of > Life. It is the nature of the Life that is manifested by the Shen. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Hi Angelo, > What does this mean: 'all chronic blockages begin in the " abdomen " - > the Shen, Po, and Hun'. Am a little confused. > > Angelo In Chpater 8 of the Ling Shu [Wu,Wu translation] it is written: " According to the principle of acupuncture, one must examine the patient carefully first and then treat according to the conditions of his spirtuual activities. As the blood, channel, Ying-energy, vital energy and the essence of life are all stored by the five viscera, when they become abnormal and be divorced from the storing viscus, the refined energy of the five viscera will be lost, the soul and the inferior spirit will be rising in the air, and Will will be vexed and the patient himself will lose his intelligence and fail to ponder, and why is it so? Is it due to the natural morbidity or due to the artificial fault of man? " It goes on to explain the relationship of the Shen, Po, and Hun to health and how it expresses itself physically through emotions. Mark Seem, Claude Larre, and Kiiko Matsumoto/Stephen Birch have all written excellent books on the nature of the Spirit and how it might be considered the root of disease. It is a subject that I enjoy reading about. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Hi again Angelo, :-) > > Nice quote Rich. > > What do you make of the rest of the Neijing where it discusses much > of the theories upon which modern TCM is based? > > Angelo I really like the Neijing. I have the Wu,Wu translation and the Ni translation. Both have a different flavor. Often I do not understand the Neijing until I have had my own individual experiences that I can relate to in the Neijing - e.g. the concept of " natural flow " , which finally made real sense to me when I started to study tuina and ws able to relate it all to my taiji practice. For me, the Neijing is usually the first place I go for " inspiration " or clues about the nature of life and health. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Rich, Qi flows through channels and network vessels. The flow of qi is what the ancient physicians 'mapped' through various techniques. The channel system is the 'map' we consult when releasing depressed qi, it allows us to more fully understand what it is we are doing. Otherwise, when releasing blockages, how do we know where the qi 'goes'? This also applies to abdominal blockages as well, which are associated with specific channels and mu xue/alarm or mustering points. If your point is that one doesn't need to understand or utilize channels and points to treat with tui na, you are not making it very well. On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:23 AM, Rich wrote: > The abdominal work was based upon searching for areas that felt " hard > and stagnated " . Small circular movements are used with increasing > pressure as the area softens up. I am thinking that by releasing the > blockages in the lower abdomen, the " downward qi " is able to flow > again and connect up more easily and efficiently. The whole system is > now functioning in a more natural manner. With the blockages, the qi > was struggling to circulate and had numerous obstructions throughout > the whole bodily system. So no particular meridians or points were " pre-determined " . It is what ever feels hard and stagnated in the body - wherever it may be. Meridians are primary channels, but any part of the body can become blocked so it is merely a matter of finding these areas and releasing them. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hello hello, Rich I agree that your approach is practical and effective, and cuts out a lot of the intellectualisation time which many of us love but possibly waste too much time on, so I understand why you have chosen to study this method. However, I feel that it is useful to understand the points and be able to locate and describe them in order to communicate with other practitioners, just as it is useful for us as practitioners of TCM to learn western anatomy and physiology in order to communicate with doctors, physios, etc, and our patients! so while for you it may not be necessary to know which points you are working on, it would be very useful to ME if you were able to say that when treating someone for a particular kind of asthma you found areas of stagnation around such and such a point on such and such a channel.... > It is as if I looked at a piping system and decided I would limit > myself to the main pipes, when it is obvious that the primary blockage > was in one of the small pipes.... This idea is not at all outside of standard meridian-channel theory, when we consider the network of the main channel pathways, the connecting vessels, sinew channels, " network vessels " or " collaterals " , and skin (what are they called again?) channels, capillary vessels, and of course the eight extraordinary vessels. I'm not saying you should go off and learn all the points or anything, I'm all for learning what we need and not wasting our time learning what we don't want to know (I'm just about to graduate from my course at school, where " law and massage " , " massage business practices " and " microbiology " are all compulsory subjects!!!) but I think it would definately be useful diagnostic information for the rest of us if you could describe (as you have been) the areas of the body where you find blockages. One day i'll learn to say what I want to say without repeating myself three times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi Rich Thanks for your reply. However, the quote does not explain how all chronic blockages begin in the abdomen (unless I am missing something?) and how this relates to the Shen, Po, and Hun. On another note - how do you treat disturbances of the Shen, Hun, and / or Po using Tuina? Regards Angelo Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > Hi Angelo, > > > What does this mean: 'all chronic blockages begin in the " abdomen " - > > the Shen, Po, and Hun'. Am a little confused. > > > > Angelo > > In Chpater 8 of the Ling Shu [Wu,Wu translation] it is written: > > " According to the principle of acupuncture, one must examine the > patient carefully first and then treat according to the conditions of > his spirtuual activities. As the blood, channel, Ying-energy, vital > energy and the essence of life are all stored by the five viscera, > when they become abnormal and be divorced from the storing viscus, the > refined energy of the five viscera will be lost, the soul and the > inferior spirit will be rising in the air, and Will will be vexed and > the patient himself will lose his intelligence and fail to ponder, and > why is it so? Is it due to the natural morbidity or due to the > artificial fault of man? " > > It goes on to explain the relationship of the Shen, Po, and Hun to > health and how it expresses itself physically through emotions. Mark > Seem, Claude Larre, and Kiiko Matsumoto/Stephen Birch have all written > excellent books on the nature of the Spirit and how it might be > considered the root of disease. It is a subject that I enjoy reading > about. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi, > However, I feel that it is useful to understand the points and be > >able to locate and describe them in order to communicate with other >practitioners, just as it is useful for us as practitioners of TCM to >learn western anatomy and physiology in order to communicate with >doctors, physios, etc, and our patients! Yes, I agree. For this reason, I do study points and physicology. It is useful for communication > > so while for you it may not be necessary to know which points you >are working on, it would be very > useful to ME if you were able to say that when treating someone for a particular kind of asthma you > found areas of stagnation around such and such a point on such and such a channel.... Yes, this is very true. In this particular situation the whole hara felt very hard to the touch and I gently massaged it to relieve stagnation. > This idea is not at all outside of standard meridian-channel theory, >when we consider the network of the main channel pathways, the >connecting vessels, sinew channels, " network vessels " or >collaterals " , and skin (what are they called again?) channels, >capillary vessels, and of course the eight extraordinary vessels. Yes, and probably many, many more that move off of these channels and vessels. They are all over the place and different modalities work in different ways. Qigong can work on whole areas at a time or can narrow its focus if so desired. > > I'm not saying you should go off and learn all the points or >anything, I'm all for learning what we need and not wasting our time learning what we don't want to know (I'm just about to graduate from >my course at school, where " law and massage " , " massage business >practices " and " microbiology " are all > compulsory subjects!!!) but I think it would definately be useful >diagnostic information for the rest of > us if you could describe (as you have been) the areas of the body >where you find blockages. This is a good point. The Japanese Shiatsu systems use the notion of the Hara - e.g. to describe general areas of the abdomen. The Hara is broken down into larger areas which make sense from a bodywork perspective. But your point is very well taken. > > One day i'll learn to say what I want to say without repeating myself three times! Well I enjoyed reading all three of them. Thanks! :-) Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi Angelo, > > Hi Rich > > Thanks for your reply. However, the quote does not explain how all > chronic blockages begin in the abdomen (unless I am missing > something?) and how this relates to the Shen, Po, and Hun. Claude Larre/Elisabeth Rochat discuss this very question extensively in their book " Rooted in Spirit " . Their translation of the paragraph that I quoted is this: " For every needling, the method is above all Not to miss the rooting in the Spirits Xue and Mai, Ying and Qi, Jing and Shen, These are stored by the Five Zang. If a situation becomes such that By succession of overflowings and total invasion They leave the Zang, Then the Essences are lost; And Hun and Po are carried away in an uncontrollable agitation, Will and Intent become confused and disordered. Knowing -how and Reflection abondon us. Where does this state come from? Should Heaven be blamed? Is it Man's fault? And what we call Virtue, Breaths, Life, Essences, Shen, Hin, Po, Heart, Intent, Will, Thought, Knowing-How, Reflection? " The authors go on and explain in their view: " Human activityy from beginning to end (the end simply our return to the origin), is directed by the Spirits. The quality of life and the fullness of our years are assured only by association with them. We must remember, therefore, that the root of life is in the Spirits. Root is ben and the Spirits are shen. ... To be effective, and at the same time not violate the organism, the acupunturist goes all the way to the origin of the patient's life, to that place wehre the Spirits are rooted, to ben shen. " Mark Seems in his book Bodymind Energetics quotes Andrew Weil: " Healing is not just a property of the physical body .. we area all mind-bodies, so that healling, like health and illness, must also be psychosomatic. " > > On another note - how do you treat disturbances of the Shen, Hun, > and / or Po using Tuina? Indirectly. It is as Seem's suggests in this same book (P.72): " Acupuncture therapy, while unbocking an energetic zone, simultaneously frees up the psyche trapped in the zone, and if attention is not paid to the undrelying psychological issues in the patient's life experience, a new energetic zone will be soon become disturbed. " I can hardly do service to this point of view in a short message. The authors I have referenced do a far better job than I can ever hope to do. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Dear Z'ev, Thank you for helping me clarify my point of view. Regards, Rich > Rich, > Qi flows through channels and network vessels. The flow of qi is > what the ancient physicians 'mapped' through various techniques. The > channel system is the 'map' we consult when releasing depressed qi, it > allows us to more fully understand what it is we are doing. > Otherwise, when releasing blockages, how do we know where the qi > 'goes'? This also applies to abdominal blockages as well, which are > associated with specific channels and mu xue/alarm or mustering points. > If your point is that one doesn't need to understand or utilize > channels and points to treat with tui na, you are not making it very > well. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi, Or it might be seen as an impaired five phase cycle. “The Five Phases dry up when mind and spirit are lost " -- in “The Journey to the West”, Vol 3, Anthony Yu, Trans 1980 Rich wrote: >>What does this mean: 'all chronic blockages begin in the " abdomen " - >>the Shen, Po, and Hun'. Am a little confused. > In Chpater 8 of the Ling Shu [Wu,Wu translation] it is written: > > " According to the principle of acupuncture, one must examine the > patient carefully first and then treat according to the conditions of > his spirtuual activities. As the blood, channel, Ying-energy, vital > energy and the essence of life are all stored by the five viscera, > when they become abnormal and be divorced from the storing viscus, the > refined energy of the five viscera will be lost, the soul and the > inferior spirit will be rising in the air, and Will will be vexed and > the patient himself will lose his intelligence and fail to ponder, and > why is it so? Is it due to the natural morbidity or due to the > artificial fault of man? " > > It goes on to explain the relationship of the Shen, Po, and Hun to > health and how it expresses itself physically through emotions. Mark > Seem, Claude Larre, and Kiiko Matsumoto/Stephen Birch have all written > excellent books on the nature of the Spirit and how it might be > considered the root of disease. It is a subject that I enjoy reading > about. If one steps back to the five phases one can look at a life from some perspectives - feng shui, life stage, diet - and widen awareness. Many cases of asthma are cured with simple dialogue between people, generating changed perspective as the phases re-align. Five phase cycles are 60% yang and 40% yin, so they're assumed to be proactively changing. This drifts into modern Dreambody (www.processwork.org) and ancient taoism. Processworkers can work with comatose people to wash out blockages, that then release the people to progress in various ways. (eg " Coma " by amy mindell) bye, vic -- Vic Williams (604)433-5189 -- www.strategicprocess.com -- www.spiralwild.com Empowering personal growth. Developing Personal & Group Ecology. " Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. Some can avoid it. Geniuses remove it. " -- Alan Perlis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi Vic, > > Hi, > > Or it might be seen as an impaired five phase cycle. > > " The Five Phases dry up when mind and spirit are lost " > -- in " The Journey to the West " , Vol 3, Anthony Yu, Trans 1980 > This is a great quote. I have never seen it before. I think it illustrates the cohesion of Chinese culture - philosophy, medicine, literature, life. It also, I believe, illustrates the root source of Five Phase and Yin/Yang Theory - i.e. the Spirit. Thanks much for bringing it to my attention. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Hi, I think the book (journey to the west) has scads of such weavings. It follows a confucian order to a buddhist monk with taoist protectors, under a dominant buddhist rightness blanket. It shifts through a whole range of settings showing chinese culture and life from some points of view. Rich wrote: >>Or it might be seen as an impaired five phase cycle. >> >> " The Five Phases dry up when mind and spirit are lost " >>-- in " The Journey to the West " , Vol 3, Anthony Yu, Trans 1980 > This is a great quote. I have never seen it before. I think it > illustrates the cohesion of Chinese culture - philosophy, medicine, > literature, life. It also, I believe, illustrates the root source of > Five Phase and Yin/Yang Theory - i.e. the Spirit. Thanks much for > bringing it to my attention. We use the five phase cycle all the time. We link it to the five senses, and five levels of awareness. And follow the extension to eight phases with two ears/nostrils/eyes, into the yijing. Just developing buoyancy - optimism in someone, or a group, can cure many social physical problems. Just finding individual and group blockages to release the chi/qu allows renewed health and growth in the life pattern. We teach tracing the five levels of awareness into nature and city/building/room design, healthy diet, and treatments. Let the dragons play their natural magic and the five phases will flow well. bye, vic -- Vic Williams (604)433-5189 -- www.strategicprocess.com -- www.spiralwild.com Empowering personal growth. Developing Personal & Group Ecology. " Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. Some can avoid it. Geniuses remove it. " -- Alan Perlis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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