Fire Needles and Needle Moxa(to homi Kaikobad)

[Guest guest]

Yes, the thermophillic microbes would need a heat(and presumably

pressure) of much greater intensity than a 'normal' flame.

Now, thermophillic microbes are not a problem to us, they are

adapted TO THE VOLCANIC environment.

Again, I wrote to Matt about the advantage of autoclave over

fire; it does't destroy your working material. apart from that,

it is only a question of verifying the level of heat needed of

the fire to destroy ALL pathogenic(harmful to humans)microbes,

bacteria, viruses,...

Marcos

 

--- homi kaikobad <aryaone escreveu:

One needs heat under pressure.

 

A flame is hot but at the same atmospheric pressure as the

needle.

The process simply clears all microorganisms sensitive to heat at

that

particular degree.

Very many others may remain valid as they fall outside that

spectrum.

In fact there are microbes in the very well of a volcano, these

which are

thermophyillic in nature.

 

In autoclave the ones which may escape heat are done away with by

sheer pressure of so many kgs per square cm.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

 

-

" marcos " <ishk18

>

>

> Hello Atillio,

> I got a little tired of this thread, but your remark that

> " peeing " on the needle is as good as autoclave, flame, etc,

> struck me as so " scientifically objective " , that I had second

> thoughts on the matter.

> I really doubt you(or anyone) will find bacteria, virus or

> WHATEVER alive on a needle after it has been heated red-hot

over

> a flame.

> That's better than autoclave(not to mention pee!).

> Of course, even better is a NEW sterilised(but by which

method?)

> needle(disposable).

>

> regards,

> Marcos

>

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto>

> Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 am

> RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

>

> I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into

> her neck.

> Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it?

>

> Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before

> insertion. And

> no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than

> using

> autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as

a

> disinfectant.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> marcos [ishk18]

> 25 October 2004 06:01

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

>

> Hi Pam,

> Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did

not

> say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use

> disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the

fact

> that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and

> possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say

that

> 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really

> read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough

> job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And

> that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does

sterilize,

> when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not

> advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing

out

> that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE

> NEEDLES.

> And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these

things

> quite well, don't worry:-)

>

> Marcos

>

> --- Pam Price <needledoc@s...> escreveu:

>

> Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed

> acupuncturist

> would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do

> you live,

> Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with

the

> law or get

> your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any

> reason.

> Pam Price

>

>

>>

>> Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any

> acupuncture

>> needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film!

>>

>> Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all

bacteria,

> so why do

>> you think a naked flame can?

>>

>> Attilio

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Marcos,

 

Being that most everyone uses disposable needles, I did not want to go to deep

about the subject of sterilizing but I feel I need to address your email to me.

You are correct that one of the advantages of steam sterilization is its ability

to sterilize other materials with less destruction but that is not the only

reason it is preferred in most instances. Another very important reason you

touched on in this reply when you stated " apart from that,

it is only a question of verifying the level of heat needed of

the fire to destroy ALL pathogenic(harmful to humans)microbes,

bacteria, viruses,...

 

That is exactly why using an open flame is a bad procedure ... it is impossible

to verify that the parameters for achieving complete sterilization is being

consistently met. One of the greatest advancements in steam sterilization was

the development of very accurate monitoring devices that should always be

including with each load to be sterilized that will verify that the parameters

for complete sterilization have been met. The most accurate of these is using a

vial of a type of bacteria that is highly resistant to sterilization. This is

run through a sterilization cycle and then cultured to see if any survived. This

is impractical to do with every load but is to be done on a regular basis,

perhaps once a month. Much better however, is the use of inexpensive monitoring

devices that can be added to each load, these are around 99% as accurate as the

bacteria test. These device change color when all the parameters of time,

temperature, and pressure have been met. They make similar devices for dry-heat

sterilizers but you cannot develop any such device for an open flame.

 

I agree with the general idea that a hot enough open flame will kill most

microorganisms most of the time, but with sterilization there is no margin for

any error. This is why monitoring devices are so important. In California, our

law requires us to use these devices after I brought their value to the

attention of our licensing board some 17 years ago when I served as an advisor

to a task force the Board held regarding sterilization protocols. As I have

stated in all my replies on this thread, I think we should use disposable

needles, but I can imagine some scenarios in some parts of the world where

sterilizing needles and reusing them might be necessary. If anyone would like

more information on a complete protocol for the appropriate steps for steam

autoclaving acupuncture needles, reply to me off list. Matt Bauer

 

 

 

-

marcos

Chinese Medicine

Monday, November 01, 2004 8:48 PM

Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa(to homi Kaikobad)

 

 

 

Yes, the thermophillic microbes would need a heat(and presumably

pressure) of much greater intensity than a 'normal' flame.

Now, thermophillic microbes are not a problem to us, they are

adapted TO THE VOLCANIC environment.

Again, I wrote to Matt about the advantage of autoclave over

fire; it does't destroy your working material. apart from that,

it is only a question of verifying the level of heat needed of

the fire to destroy ALL pathogenic(harmful to humans)microbes,

bacteria, viruses,...

Marcos

 

--- homi kaikobad <aryaone escreveu:

One needs heat under pressure.

 

A flame is hot but at the same atmospheric pressure as the

needle.

The process simply clears all microorganisms sensitive to heat at

that

particular degree.

Very many others may remain valid as they fall outside that

spectrum.

In fact there are microbes in the very well of a volcano, these

which are

thermophyillic in nature.

 

In autoclave the ones which may escape heat are done away with by

sheer pressure of so many kgs per square cm.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

 

-

" marcos " <ishk18

>

>

> Hello Atillio,

> I got a little tired of this thread, but your remark that

> " peeing " on the needle is as good as autoclave, flame, etc,

> struck me as so " scientifically objective " , that I had second

> thoughts on the matter.

> I really doubt you(or anyone) will find bacteria, virus or

> WHATEVER alive on a needle after it has been heated red-hot

over

> a flame.

> That's better than autoclave(not to mention pee!).

> Of course, even better is a NEW sterilised(but by which

method?)

> needle(disposable).

>

> regards,

> Marcos

>

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto>

> Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 am

> RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

>

> I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into

> her neck.

> Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it?

>

> Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before

> insertion. And

> no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than

> using

> autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts as

a

> disinfectant.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> marcos [ishk18]

> 25 October 2004 06:01

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

>

> Hi Pam,

> Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did

not

> say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use

> disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the

fact

> that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and

> possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say

that

> 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really

> read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough

> job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils? And

> that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does

sterilize,

> when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not

> advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing

out

> that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of FIRE

> NEEDLES.

> And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these

things

> quite well, don't worry:-)

>

> Marcos

>

> --- Pam Price <needledoc@s...> escreveu:

>

> Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed

> acupuncturist

> would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where do

> you live,

> Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with

the

> law or get

> your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any

> reason.

> Pam Price

>

>

>>

>> Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any

> acupuncture

>> needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film!

>>

>> Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all

bacteria,

> so why do

>> you think a naked flame can?

>>

>> Attilio

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Matt

 

Matt Bauer wrote:

> If anyone would like more information on a complete protocol for

> the appropriate steps for steam autoclaving acupuncture needles,

> reply to me off list. Matt Bauer

 

Just to reiterate: I know that the army and hospitals in most

civilised states prefer single-use needles, but they allow (and use)

autoclaving and other methods for recycling of instruments, etc.

 

That said, autoclaving does NOT remove PRION-INFECTIVITY from

contaminated materials. Pripn infectivity remains after ashing at

600 DegC.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt

 

As correct as it may have been in the past since we really didn;t know then

what may have been slipping by. And now with the recent knowledge of the

existence of prions and other heat resistant stealth bacteria that it no longer

makes any sense to sterilize especially acupuncture needles nor would there be

any

rationalization to do so unless autoclaving can document an upgraded

new-and-improved technology to completely erradicate these entities.

 

At this point in time isn't it superfluous as to how great autoclaving 'use

to be'?

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/3/2004 12:43:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,

acu.guy writes:

The reason I started replying to these post about fire needles and the larger

question of sterilization methods was not because I advocate reusing needles

but rather because of some of the over-the-top language some members of this

list used in condemning autoclaving acupuncture needles as a serious risk to

the public. To the best of knowledge, there has never been a case of any

cross-contamination from acupuncture needles that were autoclaved according to

accepted standards. Its great that the low cost of acupuncture needles makes it

a

no-brainer for us to use disposable equipment, but it was this low cost that

drove most (but not all) regulators to make disposable needles mandatory - not

evidence of alarming health risks. Even in the days before disposable needles,

acupuncture enjoyed a wonderful safety record as compared to other health care

professions whose equipment could cause cross-contamination. I agree that two

wrongs do not make a right and that just because other health care

professionals reuse equipment that occasionally cause cross-contamination does

not mean

we should also, but I just wanted to try to put into perspective that

autoclaving acupuncture needles is not inherently risky when compared to other

healthcare fields - such as dentistry - that we seem to accept without much

critical

thought. - Matt Bauer

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

And for those in the rural villages you can bet that a little soaking of the

needles in urine might be satisfactory to do the trick. There have been

isolated practitoners who have lost their license in the US performing that kind

of

sterilization.

 

Of course those rural villagers have the money to purchase modern autoclaving

equipment not to mention the ability and knowledge to have it regularly kept

up and checked for accuracy.

 

I can;t remember th elast tiem i heard from anyone in any internet group that

is one of those 99% you speak about.

 

The laxity of those who would scorn at one use needles is beyond

comprehension.

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/3/2004 2:51:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,

vic writes:

 

Hi,

 

Another way to think about this is to consider common Chinese usage

in the rural villages today. Not high profile big city locations

but common everyday treatments. This is where 99% of the world's

usage occurs, not in big chinese cities or elsewhere in the world.

 

Arguing about how many prions can dance on the head of needle

is probably a grin generator for people who probably commonly

accidentially cut and scrape themselves with unclean things while

working.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The reason I started replying to these post about fire needles and the larger

question of sterilization methods was not because I advocate reusing needles but

rather because of some of the over-the-top language some members of this list

used in condemning autoclaving acupuncture needles as a serious risk to the

public. To the best of knowledge, there has never been a case of any

cross-contamination from acupuncture needles that were autoclaved according to

accepted standards. Its great that the low cost of acupuncture needles makes it

a no-brainer for us to use disposable equipment, but it was this low cost that

drove most (but not all) regulators to make disposable needles mandatory - not

evidence of alarming health risks. Even in the days before disposable needles,

acupuncture enjoyed a wonderful safety record as compared to other health care

professions whose equipment could cause cross-contamination. I agree that two

wrongs do not make a right and that just because other health care professionals

reuse equipment that occasionally cause cross-contamination does not mean we

should also, but I just wanted to try to put into perspective that autoclaving

acupuncture needles is not inherently risky when compared to other healthcare

fields - such as dentistry - that we seem to accept without much critical

thought. - Matt Bauer

-

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:00 PM

Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa(to homi Kaikobad)

 

 

Hi All, & Hi Matt

 

Matt Bauer wrote:

> If anyone would like more information on a complete protocol for

> the appropriate steps for steam autoclaving acupuncture needles,

> reply to me off list. Matt Bauer

 

Just to reiterate: I know that the army and hospitals in most

civilised states prefer single-use needles, but they allow (and use)

autoclaving and other methods for recycling of instruments, etc.

 

That said, autoclaving does NOT remove PRION-INFECTIVITY from

contaminated materials. Pripn infectivity remains after ashing at

600 DegC.

 

 

 

Best regards,

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man

doing it "

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Another way to think about this is to consider common Chinese usage

in the rural villages today. Not high profile big city locations

but common everyday treatments. This is where 99% of the world's

usage occurs, not in big chinese cities or elsewhere in the world.

 

Arguing about how many prions can dance on the head of needle

is probably a grin generator for people who probably commonly

accidentially cut and scrape themselves with unclean things while

working.

 

acudoc11 wrote:

> As correct as it may have been in the past since we really didn;t know then

> what may have been slipping by. And now with the recent knowledge of the

> existence of prions and other heat resistant stealth bacteria that it no

longer

> makes any sense to sterilize especially acupuncture needles nor would there be

any

> rationalization to do so unless autoclaving can document an upgraded

> new-and-improved technology to completely erradicate these entities.

>

> At this point in time isn't it superfluous as to how great autoclaving 'use

> to be'?

>

Advanced sterilization is a form of restrictive Western thinking

splashing past the point, and the succcessful history, of the practice.

 

 

bye,

Vic

--

Vic Williams (604)433-5189 -- www.strategicprocess.com -- www.spiralwild.com

Empowering personal growth. Developing Personal & Group Ecology.

" Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. Some can avoid it. Geniuses

remove it. "

-- Alan Perlis

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

That is good, to know that a sterilization procedure worked as it

should.

I(as I wrote before) use disposable, but the 'fire needle

sterilization question' interested me because the manner of

use(heating by fire) already had the potential for sterilization.

Others(you among them) raised questions and objections, all

justified, as was the contention that autoclave also isn't

perfect.

Anyway, regulations must be observed and requirements met, for

the interest here is the health and safety of our those who come

to us for treatment. In this, I find the practicality and safety

of disposable needles quite a blessing.

 

Marcos

 

--- Matt Bauer <acu.guy escreveu:

 

>Hi Marcos,

 

>Being that most everyone uses disposable needles, I did not want

to go to deep about the subject of sterilizing but I feel I need

to address your email to me. You are correct that one of the

advantages of steam sterilization is its ability to sterilize

other materials with less destruction but that is not the only

reason it is preferred in most instances. Another very important

reason you touched on in this reply when you stated " apart from

that,

it is only a question of verifying the level of heat needed of

the fire to destroy ALL pathogenic(harmful to humans)microbes,

bacteria, viruses,...

 

That is exactly why using an open flame is a bad procedure ... it

is impossible to verify that the parameters for achieving

complete sterilization is being consistently met. One of the

greatest advancements in steam sterilization was the development

of very accurate monitoring devices that should always be

including with each load to be sterilized that will verify that

the parameters for complete sterilization have been met. The most

accurate of these is using a vial of a type of bacteria that is

highly resistant to sterilization. This is run through a

sterilization cycle and then cultured to see if any survived.

This is impractical to do with every load but is to be done on a

regular basis, perhaps once a month. Much better however, is the

use of inexpensive monitoring devices that can be added to each

load, these are around 99% as accurate as the bacteria test.

These device change color when all the parameters of time,

temperature, and pressure have been met. They make similar

devices for dry-heat sterilizers but you cannot develop any such

device for an open flame.

 

I agree with the general idea that a hot enough open flame will

kill most microorganisms most of the time, but with sterilization

there is no margin for any error. This is why monitoring devices

are so important. In California, our law requires us to use these

devices after I brought their value to the attention of our

licensing board some 17 years ago when I served as an advisor to

a task force the Board held regarding sterilization protocols. As

I have stated in all my replies on this thread, I think we should

use disposable needles, but I can imagine some scenarios in some

parts of the world where sterilizing needles and reusing them

might be necessary. If anyone would like more information on a

complete protocol for the appropriate steps for steam autoclaving

acupuncture needles, reply to me off list. Matt Bauer

 

 

 

-

marcos

Chinese Medicine

Monday, November 01, 2004 8:48 PM

Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa(to homi

Kaikobad)

 

 

 

Yes, the thermophillic microbes would need a heat(and

presumably

pressure) of much greater intensity than a 'normal' flame.

Now, thermophillic microbes are not a problem to us, they are

adapted TO THE VOLCANIC environment.

Again, I wrote to Matt about the advantage of autoclave over

fire; it does't destroy your working material. apart from that,

it is only a question of verifying the level of heat needed of

the fire to destroy ALL pathogenic(harmful to humans)microbes,

bacteria, viruses,...

Marcos

 

--- homi kaikobad <aryaone escreveu:

One needs heat under pressure.

 

A flame is hot but at the same atmospheric pressure as the

needle.

The process simply clears all microorganisms sensitive to heat

at

that

particular degree.

Very many others may remain valid as they fall outside that

spectrum.

In fact there are microbes in the very well of a volcano, these

which are

thermophyillic in nature.

 

In autoclave the ones which may escape heat are done away with

by

sheer pressure of so many kgs per square cm.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

 

-

" marcos " <ishk18

>

>

> Hello Atillio,

> I got a little tired of this thread, but your remark that

> " peeing " on the needle is as good as autoclave, flame, etc,

> struck me as so " scientifically objective " , that I had second

> thoughts on the matter.

> I really doubt you(or anyone) will find bacteria, virus or

> WHATEVER alive on a needle after it has been heated red-hot

over

> a flame.

> That's better than autoclave(not to mention pee!).

> Of course, even better is a NEW sterilised(but by which

method?)

> needle(disposable).

>

> regards,

> Marcos

>

> " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto>

> Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 am

> RE: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

>

> I saw Jet Lee put a woman to sleep by inserting a needle into

> her neck.

> Doesn't mean I'm gonna do it, does it?

>

> Even in China, Fire needles are autoclaved then heated before

> insertion. And

> no, putting a naked flame to a fire needle is no better than

> using

> autoclave. You might aswell pee on the needle as urine acts

as

a

> disinfectant.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> marcos [ishk18]

> 25 October 2004 06:01

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

>

> Hi Pam,

> Good that you asked that, lets get the record straight; I did

not

> say I used 'fire sterilised needles'(for the record, I use

> disposable, throw-away after use!), I was commenting on the

fact

> that a chinese film brought to my attention that it was(and

> possibly still is) done in rural China. By the way, you say

that

> 'it is beyond comprehension' to consider such, did you really

> read what Attilio wrote, that autoclave DOESN'T do a thorough

> job? and that a visit to a DENTIST is fraught with perils?

And

> that a FLAME(yes, innocent looking fire!)can and does

sterilize,

> when it doesnt melt or burn what is put in it? I am not

> advocating fire(I prefer disposable anyway), but am pointing

out

> that it may be BETTER than autoclave, etc, in the case of

FIRE

> NEEDLES.

> And last but not least: yes we have laws that cover these

things

> quite well, don't worry:-)

>

> Marcos

>

> --- Pam Price <needledoc@s...> escreveu:

>

> Marco and all, it is beyond comprehension that a licensed

> acupuncturist

> would even Consider using fire to sterilize a needle. Where

do

> you live,

> Marco? There are laws that govern this quite well. Stick with

the

> law or get

> your license revoked! Needles are NOT to be reused for any

> reason.

> Pam Price

>

>

>>

>> Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise any

> acupuncture

>> needle. Even if you saw it in a epic martial arts film!

>>

>> Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all

bacteria,

> so why do

>> you think a naked flame can?

>>

>> Attilio

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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