Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Attilio thanks for the link, I will post a poll. To Robert hayden, Please, dont be even " almost offended " ! I am quite aware of some prejudice and skepticism in TCM circles and I am admitting that. This WAS certainly my attitude in the past as well ..... Perhaps less stimulation can be just as effective. I was quite amazed when I treated someone effectively with No Insertion at all! I'm just not clear on how and why things are the way they are in the evolution of the practice. I tend to be conservative and stick with classical chinese approaches, based on my training. Perhaps I should just get some training outside of China and then I will know for myself. In the meantime, I'd like to hear from others who have made the transition to a 'kinder , gentler " acupuncture. Thats my point. I see some really agressive techniques here that i am not so comfortable with.Are they really necessary? Why or why not? Just wondering... Skip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Hi Skip, > > Perhaps less stimulation can be just as effective. There is the concept of " placebo effect " - where seemingly " nothing " produces " cure " . What role does the " Mind " play in the process? A person can cure himself/herself in many ways - and I believe a health practitioner should be humble and not always presume complete credit. There is the patient and the practitioner - and both have a role. Whether or not it is equal, I guess may be impossible to say, since it is always changing. > I was quite amazed when I treated someone effectively with No > Insertion at all! Yes, the Mind (Shen, Po, Hun) takes over and does what it needs to do to stay alive. It is doing this during every moment in every life. It is a tough job, but someone has to do it. :-) > In the meantime, I'd like to hear from others who have made the > transition to a 'kinder , gentler " acupuncture. I can speak from my experiences using Tuina/Qigong. There doesn't appear to be one way. Each patient(client)/practitioner relationship is different, and therefore predictablity is about as much as quantum physics allows - just an infinite set of possibilities. >Thats my point. > I see some really agressive techniques here that i am not so > comfortable with.Are they really necessary? I can say, again from Tuina/Qigong perspective, in some cases yes and other cases no. It is a back-and-forth play between the patient and the practitioner, as they seek to find " harmony " . I have yet to see the " magic " formula. >Why or why not? Because everyone is different? >Just wondering... > Skip Yep, so do I. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Hi All Su Wen: Ci Yao Lun (Simple questions: " Treatise on the essentials of nedling " ): 'Diseases are floating [i.e, superficial] or deep, while needling may be superficial and deep. Each has its own reason. Do not exceed its dao. Exceeding leads to internal damage, while not reaching leads to the engenderment of external congestion, and congestion leads to evils following...' [reproduced from Golden Needle Wang Le-Ting, A 20th century masters approach to acupuncture, Blue Poppy Press, 1996] On the matter of insertion depth there is no one correct depth and no incorrect depth, this goes against the dao, the yin in yang and yang in yin, we seek to obtain harmony between yin and yang by intervention, intention and expectation. As a guide gleaning from the classics and contemporary masters if the disease is superficial needling should be, if the disease is deep, needling should be. From experience, reflection and reading, if the pulse is superficial the qi will be superficial therefore needle superficially, if the pulse is deep the qi will be found deep therefore needle deep. Dai Fu said: But what if some are deep and some superficial! i.e the different pulse positions (cubit, bar, inch or cun, guan, chi left and right) Somebody replied: according to the classics the pulse positions represent the nature of the qi in the corresponding " channel " (see book on pulse diagnosis by Bob Flaws, cant remember the exact name) and vacuity/repletion of the organ. therefore when needling a channel check its pulse and base needle depth accordingly. About not needling at all, the shen is involved to a lesser or greater extent in any disorder, and therefore the patients awareness will be either consciously or subconsciously on the point or area of pathology and/or the point that should return harmony. therefore non- insertion with intent of healing plus expectation of cure on the side of the patient will produce positive therapeutic effect in many cases, if you take the statistics with regards to placebo, 45%. Just a thought, although this is my own opinion, if the pulse is superficial from exterior vacuity, the needle can be inserted superficially, qi obtained and then pushed deeper to root the qi, while in the same condtion it is common to find the kidney pulses deep, the kidney channel can then be needled deep and the qi brought to the surface to balance. Feroz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi Skip and All, When I am trying to tonify, I tap the needle in and then either leave it or just barely push it in a tad bit and turn it halfway clockwise. I have found this to be significantly more effective when trying to tonify a point. My results greatly improved when I stopped over-stimulating the points. That's my 2 cents! Laura Chinese Medicine , " skip8080 " <skip8080> wrote: > > > Attilio thanks for the link, I will post a poll. > > To Robert hayden, > Please, dont be even " almost offended " ! I am quite aware of some > prejudice and skepticism in TCM circles and I am admitting that. > This WAS certainly my attitude in the past as well ..... > Perhaps less stimulation can be just as effective. > I was quite amazed when I treated someone effectively with No > Insertion at all! > I'm just not clear on how and why things are the way they are in the > evolution of the practice. I tend to be conservative and stick with > classical chinese approaches, based on my training. > Perhaps I should just get some training outside of China and then I > will know for myself. > In the meantime, I'd like to hear from others who have made the > transition to a 'kinder , gentler " acupuncture. Thats my point. > I see some really agressive techniques here that i am not so > comfortable with.Are they really necessary? Why or why not? Just > wondering... > Skip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Hi all, I recently visited a tuina/acupuncturist/qigong practitioner (as a patient) who was trained in China and practiced in Asia for about 20 years. This is how her acupuncture felt to me. First she palpated and used various tuina techniques in the areas that felt hard and stagnant. When she came to an area where she felt there was deep and localized blockage (it didn't matter whether or not it was on any meridian), she took a needle and began to probe and create, what felt to be, an alternative channel around and away from the blockage. Sort of like an " relief " vessel. From my point of view, I felt the energy draining immediately, but of course the problem would return until the primary blockage was removed. I felt this within my body. The interesting point was that the probing and needling was performed at the depth of the blockage and it could happen anywhere on the body. She just talked about them as points of stagnation that she found while palpating. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > Hi Skip and All, > > When I am trying to tonify, I tap the needle in and then either leave > it or just barely push it in a tad bit and turn it halfway > clockwise. I have found this to be significantly more effective when > trying to tonify a point. My results greatly improved when I stopped > over-stimulating the points. That's my 2 cents! > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , " skip8080 " > <skip8080> wrote: > > > > > > Attilio thanks for the link, I will post a poll. > > > > To Robert hayden, > > Please, dont be even " almost offended " ! I am quite aware of some > > prejudice and skepticism in TCM circles and I am admitting that. > > This WAS certainly my attitude in the past as well ..... > > Perhaps less stimulation can be just as effective. > > I was quite amazed when I treated someone effectively with No > > Insertion at all! > > I'm just not clear on how and why things are the way they are in > the > > evolution of the practice. I tend to be conservative and stick with > > classical chinese approaches, based on my training. > > Perhaps I should just get some training outside of China and then I > > will know for myself. > > In the meantime, I'd like to hear from others who have made the > > transition to a 'kinder , gentler " acupuncture. Thats my point. > > I see some really agressive techniques here that i am not so > > comfortable with.Are they really necessary? Why or why not? Just > > wondering... > > Skip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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