Needling Depth -Technique

[Guest guest]

I'd like to get to the bottom of this issue.Lets have a survey. How

deep do you needle,what size needles and WHY?

I was trained straight Shanghai TCM, and I believed that the " proper

depth " (CAM, Deadman, etc..) was the way. Sure enough in Chinese

hospitals thats what they do, I assume because it Works. My fellow

student in school for the most part used thin seirins because you

want to keep your clients coming back and graduate.no pain.i always

thought this was a poor idea since we were taught very well by

chinese docs.I learned to use the 30 gauge 2 inch needle and do it

painlessly.

i basically scoffed at the 5 element school nearby where the needles

would fall over... there was a study showing that manipulating the

needle, entangling the myofascia, (de qi) was more effective.

so i have assumed that shallow needling would be okay for the wei qi

level but innapropriate for anything else.Of course i saw japanese

technique , and even toyo hari, but with so much " I want to believe "

going on in the new age, and so much " making stuff up " going on, i

remain skeptical of this. Some practitioners including myself ,

gradually needle less and less, because of economics. Its less

painful, but is it equally effective? Once you start prescribing

herbs, well theres a sure fire therapeutic effect, so why torture

the client with chinese acupuncture?

Sometimes i feel that intention alone is sufficient to heal, but

that confuses this issue even more.

for example my girlfreind had hiccups, and i said " they may stop

without any insertion " I dropped the needle onto neiguan, and they

stopped! I started thinking about all this...so,

So, whats the deal? Why the classical chinese depth, and what is the

clinical reality of shallow needling alone???

[Guest guest]

Hi Skip,

 

Setup a poll within the group to find your answer. Direct link is

http://health.Chinese Medicine/polls

 

Hope this helps

 

Attilio

 

 

skip8080 [skip8080]

31 October 2004 10:18

Chinese Medicine

Needling Depth -Technique

 

 

 

I'd like to get to the bottom of this issue.Lets have a survey. How

deep do you needle,what size needles and WHY?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> hello skip

>

>

> > i basically scoffed at the 5 element school nearby where the needles

> would fall over...

 

that ain't no 5 element school

5 element teaching is to hit the point at its depth and

then manipulate the ch'i

 

 

stephen

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " skip8080 " <skip8080>

wrote:

>

> i basically scoffed at the 5 element school nearby where the needles

> would fall over... there was a study showing that manipulating the

> needle, entangling the myofascia, (de qi) was more effective.

> so i have assumed that shallow needling would be okay for the wei qi

> level but innapropriate for anything else.Of course i saw japanese

> technique , and even toyo hari, but with so much " I want to believe "

> going on in the new age, and so much " making stuff up " going on, i

> remain skeptical of this. Some practitioners including myself ,

> gradually needle less and less, because of economics. Its less

> painful, but is it equally effective?

 

i largely stopped being offended by such posts long ago, but yours comes pretty

close.

 

there is nothing " new age " about Toyohari or other Japanese meridian therapy

styles.

Some of the US practitioners may be new age, but that's a different matter.

Most quite

frankly are not that good, either, so it is ridiculous to compare the technique

of someone

with one or two years of experience and a considerable amount of " un-learning "

TCM to

do to someone who has been doing it for 20 or 30 years and/or who comes from an

apprenticeship under such a practitioner.

 

Fact is that most practitioners in Japan do not have " sure fire " herbs as an

option and do

not have government-sponsored positions in hospitals but are in private practice

in a

highly competitive environment and MUST retain patients to make a living in

cities such as

Tokyo where the cost of living is high and there are plenty of therapies from

which to

choose. Japanese tend to be very pragmatic and results are valued over theory.

 

Of course there are many styles of acupuncture in Japan and many techniques,

sesshokushin (contact needling) being just one. But i would recommend you go to

Tachikawa to Yanagishita Toshio's clinic and try to get in to see him -- you

will wait hours.

He treats using sesshokushin on two or three points, a little bit of moxa, and

you're

done... ten minutes is a long treatment since he sees 70-100 patients per day,

six days a

week.

 

Fact is sesshokushin is difficult to do well where slam-bang deep needling is

easy to do.

Do what works for you, you like it do it, you don't then don't.

 

robert hayden