Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 > Z'ev, page 572 of the Management of Cancer with by Li Peiwan -Donica Publishing- in defining stagnation says that " qi stagnation in the Lungs manifests as turbid Lung Qi, copious phlegm, and coughing and wheezing. " Note that this book makes a clear differentiation between qi stagnation and the various depressions. doug > Message: 19 > Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:28:26 -0700 > " " <zrosenbe > Re: Lung Qi stagnation > > The pattern is mentioned on pg. 903 in Giovanni's " Diagnosis in Chinese > Medicine " . The symptoms and signs Giovanni list include " a feeling or > lump in the throat, difficulty swallowing, a feeling of oppression or > distention of the chest, slight breathlessness, sighing, sadness, > slight anxiety, depression " . I was unable to find the pattern " lung > qi stagnation " in my Chinese medical dictionaries or internal medicine > texts, however I was able to find these symptoms listed under several > patterns listed in Chinese medical dictionaries or internal medicine > texts as fei bi/lung impediment (oppression and vexation in the chest), > or mei he qi/plum pit qi (sensation of a foreign body in the throat > with difficult swallowing). There is also a pattern in the Su Wen > called jin yu or metal depression, that includes some of these > symptoms, later discussed in the Chi shui xuan zhu/Mysterious Pearl of > Red Water as lung depression (mental depression, chest oppression). > > If anyone else has sources for lung qi stagnation, I would be > interested in knowing. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 On 31/10/2004, at 8:43 PM, doug wrote: > > >> > Z'ev, page 572 of the Management of Cancer with by Li > Peiwan -Donica Publishing- in defining stagnation says that " qi > stagnation in the Lungs manifests as turbid Lung Qi, copious phlegm, > and coughing and wheezing. " Note that this book makes a clear > differentiation between qi stagnation and the various depressions. > doug > Hi Doug, Qi stagnation is a very general term for one of the 3 major pathological processes of qi in the body ie. stagnation, vacuity and counterflow. However, saying " qi stagnation in the Lungs " as part of a pathological process manifests in certain ways as you mention above is IMO different from saying there is a pattern called " Lung Qi stagnation " . Regarding the physiology and pathology of the Lung; Wiseman fundamentals says in regards to the lung governing qi.... " Non-diffusion of lung qi or impairment of depurative downbearing are characterised by cough, rapid or hasty breathing, as well as by distension and fullness in the chest and rib-side. Elementary questions (su wen, wu zang sheng cheng pia) states : " All huffing and depression of qi is ascribed to the Lung " . One can certainly say when the lung qi is not diffusing or downbearing that the qi has stagnated in the lungs, but this is a very general term for a pathological process that is part of many lung patterns.; this process occurs due to emotional disturbance, wind-cold, wind-heat, phelgm-rhuem retention etc.......it is not a pattern of Lung qi stagnation as such, but the process of stagnation/depression of the qi in the lung which produces specific patterns. What the common pathological process of " stagnation " of qi in the lung does do is produce the patterns of non-diffusion of lung qi, impaired depurative downbearing of lung qi, inhibition of lung qi and is present in other patterns such as wind-heat and wind-cold invading the lungs, phlegm-rheum patterns etc. which each have some common characteristics due to the effects on the lung functions. Perhaps Maciocia is confusing a complex pattern of " liver depression qi stagnation " complicated by signs of " non-diffusion of lung qi " or " impaired depurative downbearing of lung qi " as a " new " pattern or has made a conscious decision to group these patterns together in an attempt to " simplify " matters as he has often done (especially in his case study examples). However, after looking through a Maciocia text I don't believe what he may call lung qi stagnation is really a primary lung condition at all......it is complicated liver depression...... From Maciocia's Gynaecology text I found these references to lung qi stagnation :- " Worry knots the qi of the Lungs, heart and spleen. It leads to stagnation of qi which may cause delayed periods or painful periods. It is important to note that, as the above-mentioned organs also may suffer from stagnation of qi, the latter is not always synonymous with liver-qi stagnation. " Steve - This says to me that he is trying to use the general term of stagnation to cover " knot " here which suggests to me that this is not really qi stagnation, but more likely what Wiseman translates as qi depression. He is also suggesting qi stagnation is always due to the liver; this is not true in TCM at all. As I mentioned above, qi stagnation is a GENERAL pathological process, not a pattern although the signs he gives here are typical liver depression qi stagnation signs. " Stagnation of Lung-qi from emotional stress plays an important role in pre-menstrual tension because in the chest area it affects the breasts in women and may therefore cause breast distension, slight breathlessness, sighing, etc. This is often an overlooked factor; qi stagnation is invariably only related to the liver, although in fact, it does affect the lungs as well.........Worry, grief and sadness may all lead to stagnation of the lung qi in the chest... " Steve - these are predominantly liver depression signs with some subsequent complication of lung involvement to me, not a lung qi stagnation pattern. The impairment of qi movement due to emotions is " depression " (yu) not " stagnation " (Zhi) in Wiseman speak. " It is important to realize that stagnation of qi comes not only from the liver but also from the heart and, especially the lungs. In fact, even emotions that cause depletion of qi, such as sadness and grief may cause stagnation of qi (of the lungs) because, when qi is depleted in the chest, it does not circulate well and therefore stagnates " . Steve -These are explanations of pathological processes, which I believe he is simplifying the terminology to cover terms such as depression/binding/ " knots " /stagnation into one word which is not very accurate to TCM as it is presented in Chinese. Macioicia suggest a formula for " Stagnation of Lung-qi from emotional problems " presenting as sighing, a feeling of tightness or oppression in the chest, sadness, grief and a pale tongue. He recommends ban xia hou po tang. Now ban xia hou po tang is the classic formula for treating plum-pit qi caused by liver depression due to stress which disturbs the spleen, stomach and lungs functions of moving qi and fluids resulting in the accumulation of phlegm. Surely, if lung qi stagnation was a distinct pattern is would require a distinct formula? But no. This says to me that rather than consider such cases as involving more than one organ, for simplicity he calls it lung qi stagnation but keeps the formula for liver depression with concomitant spleen/stomach or lung involvement and phlegm retention. Patients in clinic as a rule never have " a " pattern, they have two or more (usually more) and the ways these patterns interact can produce interesting mixes of signs and symptoms. However, I have never found a reason to make a new pattern to fit a patient, I just tease out the threads of the already recognised patterns in professional TCM that are the cause of the patients complex presentation. Sorry to dribble on for so long on this; but I find it fascinating in terms of what less precise terminology can do to the depth and complexity of TCM. Rather than simplifying it, it actually confuses it IMO leaving practitioners (not to mention beginning students!) to re-invent the wheel every-time they try to understand and reconcile the different terminology's out there. Many of the core texts omit the subtleties in terminology of TCM as is it is presented in Chinese and offer no way of tracing the terminology back to the pinyin or chinese, while others offer more detailed, referenced and more accurate IMO presentation of the Chinese literature. Best Wishes, Steve Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0437 033 500 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 _____ doug [res19zl9] Sunday, October 31, 2004 2:44 AM Chinese Medicine lung stagnation > Z'ev, page 572 of the Management of Cancer with by Li Peiwan -Donica Publishing- in defining stagnation says that " qi stagnation in the Lungs manifests as turbid Lung Qi, copious phlegm, and coughing and wheezing. " Note that this book makes a clear differentiation between qi stagnation and the various depressions. doug [Jason] If one does an internet search for lung qi depression (in Chinese) it does come up quite a bit... But that helps us very little in figuring out what G.M. is saying. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 _____ Steven Slater [laozhongyi] " Stagnation of Lung-qi from emotional stress plays an important role in pre-menstrual tension because in the chest area it affects the breasts in women and may therefore cause breast distension, slight breathlessness, sighing, etc. This is often an overlooked factor; qi stagnation is invariably only related to the liver, although in fact, it does affect the lungs as well.........Worry, grief and sadness may all lead to stagnation of the lung qi in the chest... " Steve - these are predominantly liver depression signs with some subsequent complication of lung involvement to me, not a lung qi stagnation pattern. The impairment of qi movement due to emotions is " depression " (yu) not " stagnation " (Zhi) in Wiseman speak. [Jason] What is the treatment for this.. that would say a lot. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Thanks, Doug. I'll look that one up, I have the book. Z'ev On Oct 31, 2004, at 1:43 AM, doug wrote: > > > > Z'ev, page 572 of the Management of Cancer with by Li > Peiwan -Donica Publishing- in defining stagnation says that " qi > stagnation in the Lungs manifests as turbid Lung Qi, copious phlegm, > and coughing and wheezing. " Note that this book makes a clear > differentiation between qi stagnation and the various depressions. > doug > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Hi Jason, Sorry, he doesn't give any prescription here. This was from the intro section on women's pathology. I just noticed I made a mistake in the quote also...... It should have said " Stagnation of lung-qi from emotional stress plays an INDIRECT role... " I gave all the info I could find in reference to lung qi stagnation in my previous post, which included the only formula he mentioned ie. ban xia hou po tang. What is your take on this lung qi stagnation " pattern " Maciocia is fond of? Is it just lung complications due to liver depression? Best Wishes, Steve On 01/11/2004, at 2:22 AM, wrote: _____ > > Steven Slater [laozhongyi] > > > " Stagnation of Lung-qi from emotional stress plays an important role in > pre-menstrual tension because in the chest area it affects the breasts > in women and may therefore cause breast distension, slight > breathlessness, sighing, etc. This is often an overlooked factor; qi > stagnation is invariably only related to the liver, although in fact, > it does affect the lungs as well.........Worry, grief and sadness may > all lead to stagnation of the lung qi in the chest... " > > Steve - these are predominantly liver depression signs with some > subsequent complication of lung involvement to me, not a lung qi > stagnation pattern. The impairment of qi movement due to emotions is > " depression " (yu) not " stagnation " (Zhi) in Wiseman speak. > > [Jason] > > What is the treatment for this.. that would say a lot. > > > > - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 This is the point. If we had the pinyin and/or Chinese characters, it would be easier to figure out. Jason, is it fei qi yu, or fei qi zhi? On Oct 31, 2004, at 6:44 AM, wrote: > If one does an internet search for lung qi depression (in Chinese) > it does come up quite a bit... But that helps us very little in > figuring out > what G.M. is saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 _____ [zrosenbe] Sunday, October 31, 2004 8:53 AM Chinese Medicine Re: lung stagnation This is the point. If we had the pinyin and/or Chinese characters, it would be easier to figure out. Jason, is it fei qi yu, or fei qi zhi? [Jason] IT was fei qi yu - I did not check fei qi zhi. I have wondered about the pattern for sometime and at the moment do not have anything intelligent to say about, I will get to Steve et al, if I come across or think of something. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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