Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hi All & John, John Garbarini wrote: > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around the elbow, near > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG John, could you please describe the exact locations of the Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on WWW that show these locations? Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Phil- The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting " attack " point, as striking the area renders the opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts). The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area, which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the immune points should relieve pain on this area. John Garbarini --- < wrote: > Hi All & John, > > John Garbarini wrote: > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around > the elbow, near > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG > > John, could you please describe the exact locations > of the > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on > WWW that > show these locations? > > > > Best regards, > > Email: < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 To every DR and DRS Phil- The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for HEALER to use. I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese. www.jacupuncture.com Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM > [Original Message] > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000 > <Chinese Medicine > > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points > > > > Phil- > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into > the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts). > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area, > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the > immune points should relieve pain on this area. > John Garbarini > > --- < wrote: > > > Hi All & John, > > > > John Garbarini wrote: > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around > > the elbow, near > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG > > > > John, could you please describe the exact locations > > of the > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on > > WWW that > > show these locations? > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Email: < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions please. Attilio megumi hirayama [drmegumi] 25 October 2004 20:33 Chinese Medicine Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points To every DR and DRS Phil- The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for HEALER to use. I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese. www.jacupuncture.com Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM > [Original Message] > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000 > <Chinese Medicine > > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points > > > > Phil- > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into > the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts). > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area, > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the > immune points should relieve pain on this area. > John Garbarini > > --- < wrote: > > > Hi All & John, > > > > John Garbarini wrote: > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around > > the elbow, near > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG > > > > John, could you please describe the exact locations > > of the > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on > > WWW that > > show these locations? > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Email: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 I am new to this post so hi everyone. First I would like to say that the abbreviation ³Jap² is common for Japan and I do not believe it to be used in a derogatory way. Second, this information can be found in books printed by Kiiko Matsumoto et al. She talks about this in her latest book on the clinical treatment of illness (a must for any meridian practitioners library). The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area (McBurney¹s point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear. Both of these are checked and treated in the first session. I hope this helps with any confusion. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 10/25/04 5:36 PM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions please. > > Attilio > > > megumi hirayama [drmegumi] > 25 October 2004 20:33 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points > > > > To every DR and DRS > > Phil- > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis > > Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for HEALER > to use. > > I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI > > I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese. > > www.jacupuncture.com > Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM > > >> > [Original Message] >> > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000 >> > <Chinese Medicine > >> > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM >> > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points >> > >> > >> > >> > Phil- >> > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis >> > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE >> > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into >> > the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting >> > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the >> > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck >> > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts). >> > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area, >> > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the >> > immune points should relieve pain on this area. >> > John Garbarini >> > >> > --- < wrote: >> > >>> > > Hi All & John, >>> > > >>> > > John Garbarini wrote: >>>> > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around >>> > > the elbow, near >>>> > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG >>> > > >>> > > John, could you please describe the exact locations >>> > > of the >>> > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on >>> > > WWW that >>> > > show these locations? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Best regards, >>> > > >>> > > Email: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Oops! I thought I'd abbreviated Jap. JG Do you like the treatment strategy anyway? --- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: > I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions > please. > > Attilio > > > megumi hirayama > [drmegumi] > 25 October 2004 20:33 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune > points > > > > To every DR and DRS > > Phil- > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis > > Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word > was very bad for HEALER > to use. > > I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI > > I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese. > > www.jacupuncture.com > Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM > > > > [Original Message] > > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000 > > <Chinese Medicine > > > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM > > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese > immune points > > > > > > > > Phil- > > The Jap immune points are located in the > gelosis > > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER > THE > > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. > into > > the area. This area is also an oriental-style > fighting > > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the > > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck > > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts). > > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 > area, > > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the > > immune points should relieve pain on this area. > > John Garbarini > > > > --- < wrote: > > > > > Hi All & John, > > > > > > John Garbarini wrote: > > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, > around > > > the elbow, near > > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG > > > > > > John, could you please describe the exact > locations > > > of the > > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics > on > > > WWW that > > > show these locations? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Email: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Hi All, & John, John Garbarini wrote: > The ... points are located in the gelosis areas starting from LI11 > down and directly OVER THE BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put > perp. into the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the opponent's hands > unable to make a fist, if struck correctly. (I'm not a student of > martial arts). The immune area on the hara is the L ST25-ST27 area, > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the immune points > should relieve pain on this area. Great stuff, John. Many thanks. Is there any way that you could scan the pages of a textbook that show the locations of the points relative to standard AP points? Or could you print off the LI Channel and ST Channel at http://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupoints/li_meridian.html and http://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupoints/st_meridian.html and ink in the location of the points and mount a digital photo of the edited chart? If yes, you could upload the images to the Files area of the List server. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 I don't agree, so please don't use that term in this group. Thank you Attilio mike Bowser [naturaldoc1] 26 October 2004 00:45 Chinese Medicine Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points I am new to this post so hi everyone. First I would like to say that the abbreviation ³Jap² is common for Japan and I do not believe it to be used in a derogatory way. Second, this information can be found in books printed by Kiiko Matsumoto et al. She talks about this in her latest book on the clinical treatment of illness (a must for any meridian practitioners library). The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area (McBurney¹s point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear. Both of these are checked and treated in the first session. I hope this helps with any confusion. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac On 10/25/04 5:36 PM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions please. > > Attilio > > > megumi hirayama [drmegumi] > 25 October 2004 20:33 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points > > > > To every DR and DRS > > Phil- > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis > > Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for HEALER > to use. > > I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI > > I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese. > > www.jacupuncture.com > Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM > > >> > [Original Message] >> > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000 >> > <Chinese Medicine > >> > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM >> > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points >> > >> > >> > >> > Phil- >> > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis >> > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE >> > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into >> > the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting >> > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the >> > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck >> > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts). >> > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area, >> > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the >> > immune points should relieve pain on this area. >> > John Garbarini >> > >> > --- < wrote: >> > >>> > > Hi All & John, >>> > > >>> > > John Garbarini wrote: >>>> > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around >>> > > the elbow, near >>>> > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG >>> > > >>> > > John, could you please describe the exact locations >>> > > of the >>> > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on >>> > > WWW that >>> > > show these locations? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Best regards, >>> > > >>> > > Email: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Also, beyond the offensiveness of the epithet is the inaccuracy of the nomenclature. To say " Japanese immune points " implies that all Japanese practitioners recognize and utilize these points. It is like calling Tong points " Chinese extra points " . Don't be lazy -- credit the source. If you don't know the source, don't post the information. How can you be sure it is accurate? Is the " immune area of the abdomen " on the right or left? Is the blood stasis area on the left or right? This is a big list, as Phil points out, and misinformation spreads rapidly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be > found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area (McBurney¹s > point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually > indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear. Both of > these are checked and treated in the first session. This is not quite right either. The right ST27 area correlates to immunity, while the left ST27 correlates with oketsu. But you still have to perform the clearance points to clear those areas. If ST27 on the right is tender (indicating a possible immune problem), you can use nagano, four points in the vicinity of SJ16, SP6 or SP9 to clear the points. Press the abdominal area first to check for tenderness, then press the clearance points in succession to see if they clear the tenderness in the abdomen. Choose the 1-2 best points to needle from those that clear the best. For ST27 on the left (oketsu, stagnation), the clearance points are LU5(L) LR4(L) if no change ST30*, SP10. My clearance points may be slightly different from others due to who I've studied with. --brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Not to belabor the point, you mean R ST 25 to 27? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " John Garbarini " <johnlg_2000 <Chinese Medicine > Monday, October 25, 2004 10:48 AM Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points > > > Phil- > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into > the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts). > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area, > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the > immune points should relieve pain on this area. > John Garbarini > > --- < wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area (McBurney¹s point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear. Both of these are checked and treated in the first session. I hope this helps with any confusion. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > Appreciate this post. Like to add: McBurney's point is somewhat differently located than the Matsumoto-Nagano Lung area at ST 25-27. McBurney's is at junction of distal 1/3 with the medial 2/3 on the line which joins the umbilicus to the R anterior superior iliac spine, ASIS. Depending on the type of abdome, it can lie very far from tne ST 25-27 area. I've found the ST 25-27 area to be not very easily marked. The actual dimensions by Matsumoto are a sort of triangle with: a. the medial vertical formed by the Ren b. the base by a line extending from Ren at level of ST 27, to ST 27, 2 cun away c. the hypotoneuse so to say by a line which runs from Ren at umbilicus and slants downwards and outwards to ST 27. Somewhere there one throws in K 16. In clinic I've found more a vague induration or painful knot at some point in this triangle. It may be no more than a cm in diameter. Deep breath. Sometimes I've found something way down into the abdomen, more like 4 cun away from Ren, at level of or below ST 27. This location is applicable only in order to release this reflex Matsumoto style. For all other purposes, when releasing the LU in general, and not as a reflex. any induration anywhere on L abdomen serves as significant. The exact Matsumoto reflex requires a release by: 1. L LU 5 2. R LV 4 3. R LU 5, in that order. The general abdominal release requires a needle in any induration on LU channel between wrist and elbow on R forearm. The ST 25-27 reflex is either released with points at 1 to 3 above, if it is only a simple release. If you are releasing the Immune Reflex at point Evil Wind inferior and anterior to the attachment of sternomastoid into the mastoid, you will need to work with the very marvelous LI 11, and 10, but always found at wired locations. If this has tuned out to be a drafty post, ask Mike. He started the whole thing. :-) Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.