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Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

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Hi All & John,

 

John Garbarini wrote:

> Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around the elbow, near

> LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG

 

John, could you please describe the exact locations of the

Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on WWW that

show these locations?

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

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Phil-

The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE

BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into

the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting

" attack " point, as striking the area renders the

opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck

correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts).

The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area,

which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the

immune points should relieve pain on this area.

John Garbarini

 

--- < wrote:

 

> Hi All & John,

>

> John Garbarini wrote:

> > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around

> the elbow, near

> > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG

>

> John, could you please describe the exact locations

> of the

> Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on

> WWW that

> show these locations?

>

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <

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To every DR and DRS

 

Phil-

The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

 

Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for HEALER

to use.

 

I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI

 

I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese.

 

www.jacupuncture.com

Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM

 

 

 

 

> [Original Message]

> John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

> <Chinese Medicine >

> 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM

> Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

>

>

>

> Phil-

> The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

> areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE

> BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into

> the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting

> " attack " point, as striking the area renders the

> opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck

> correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts).

> The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area,

> which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the

> immune points should relieve pain on this area.

> John Garbarini

>

> --- < wrote:

>

> > Hi All & John,

> >

> > John Garbarini wrote:

> > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around

> > the elbow, near

> > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG

> >

> > John, could you please describe the exact locations

> > of the

> > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on

> > WWW that

> > show these locations?

> >

> >

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Email: <

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I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions please.

 

Attilio

 

 

megumi hirayama [drmegumi]

25 October 2004 20:33

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

 

 

 

To every DR and DRS

 

Phil-

The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

 

Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for HEALER

to use.

 

I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI

 

I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese.

 

www.jacupuncture.com

Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM

 

 

> [Original Message]

> John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

> <Chinese Medicine >

> 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM

> Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

>

>

>

> Phil-

> The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

> areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE

> BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into

> the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting

> " attack " point, as striking the area renders the

> opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck

> correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts).

> The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area,

> which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the

> immune points should relieve pain on this area.

> John Garbarini

>

> --- < wrote:

>

> > Hi All & John,

> >

> > John Garbarini wrote:

> > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around

> > the elbow, near

> > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG

> >

> > John, could you please describe the exact locations

> > of the

> > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on

> > WWW that

> > show these locations?

> >

> >

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Email:

 

 

 

 

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I am new to this post so hi everyone. First I would like to say that the

abbreviation ³Jap² is common for Japan and I do not believe it to be used in

a derogatory way. Second, this information can be found in books printed by

Kiiko Matsumoto et al. She talks about this in her latest book on the

clinical treatment of illness (a must for any meridian practitioners

library). The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be

found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area (McBurney¹s

point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually

indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear. Both of

these are checked and treated in the first session. I hope this helps with

any confusion. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

On 10/25/04 5:36 PM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

wrote:

 

> I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions please.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> megumi hirayama [drmegumi]

> 25 October 2004 20:33

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

>

>

>

> To every DR and DRS

>

> Phil-

> The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

>

> Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for HEALER

> to use.

>

> I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI

>

> I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese.

>

> www.jacupuncture.com

> Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM

>

>

>> > [Original Message]

>> > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

>> > <Chinese Medicine >

>> > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM

>> > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Phil-

>> > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

>> > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE

>> > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into

>> > the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting

>> > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the

>> > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck

>> > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts).

>> > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area,

>> > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the

>> > immune points should relieve pain on this area.

>> > John Garbarini

>> >

>> > --- < wrote:

>> >

>>> > > Hi All & John,

>>> > >

>>> > > John Garbarini wrote:

>>>> > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around

>>> > > the elbow, near

>>>> > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG

>>> > >

>>> > > John, could you please describe the exact locations

>>> > > of the

>>> > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on

>>> > > WWW that

>>> > > show these locations?

>>> > >

>>> > >

>>> > >

>>> > > Best regards,

>>> > >

>>> > > Email:

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Oops! I thought I'd abbreviated Jap. JG

Do you like the treatment strategy anyway?

--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto

wrote:

 

> I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions

> please.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> megumi hirayama

> [drmegumi]

> 25 October 2004 20:33

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune

> points

>

>

>

> To every DR and DRS

>

> Phil-

> The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

>

> Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word

> was very bad for HEALER

> to use.

>

> I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI

>

> I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese.

>

> www.jacupuncture.com

> Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM

>

>

> > [Original Message]

> > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

> > <Chinese Medicine >

> > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM

> > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese

> immune points

> >

> >

> >

> > Phil-

> > The Jap immune points are located in the

> gelosis

> > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER

> THE

> > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp.

> into

> > the area. This area is also an oriental-style

> fighting

> > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the

> > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck

> > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts).

> > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27

> area,

> > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the

> > immune points should relieve pain on this area.

> > John Garbarini

> >

> > --- < wrote:

> >

> > > Hi All & John,

> > >

> > > John Garbarini wrote:

> > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points,

> around

> > > the elbow, near

> > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG

> > >

> > > John, could you please describe the exact

> locations

> > > of the

> > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics

> on

> > > WWW that

> > > show these locations?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > >

> > > Email:

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Hi All, & John,

 

John Garbarini wrote:

> The ... points are located in the gelosis areas starting from LI11

> down and directly OVER THE BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put

> perp. into the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting

> " attack " point, as striking the area renders the opponent's hands

> unable to make a fist, if struck correctly. (I'm not a student of

> martial arts). The immune area on the hara is the L ST25-ST27 area,

> which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the immune points

> should relieve pain on this area.

 

Great stuff, John. Many thanks.

 

Is there any way that you could scan the pages of a textbook that

show the locations of the points relative to standard AP points?

 

Or could you print off the LI Channel and ST Channel at

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupoints/li_meridian.html

and

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupoints/st_meridian.html

 

and ink in the location of the points and mount a digital photo of the

edited chart?

 

If yes, you could upload the images to the Files area of the List

server.

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

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I don't agree, so please don't use that term in this group.

 

Thank you

 

Attilio

 

 

 

mike Bowser [naturaldoc1]

26 October 2004 00:45

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

 

 

 

I am new to this post so hi everyone. First I would like to say that the

abbreviation ³Jap² is common for Japan and I do not believe it to be used in

a derogatory way. Second, this information can be found in books printed by

Kiiko Matsumoto et al. She talks about this in her latest book on the

clinical treatment of illness (a must for any meridian practitioners

library). The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be

found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area (McBurney¹s

point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually

indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear. Both of

these are checked and treated in the first session. I hope this helps with

any confusion. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

On 10/25/04 5:36 PM, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto

wrote:

 

> I agree, no slang to illustrate cultural regions please.

>

> Attilio

>

>

> megumi hirayama [drmegumi]

> 25 October 2004 20:33

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

>

>

>

> To every DR and DRS

>

> Phil-

> The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

>

> Above sentence from John Garbarini using JAP word was very bad for

HEALER

> to use.

>

> I like to file proper complain to JOHN GARBARINI

>

> I would like you to use JAPAN or Japanese.

>

> www.jacupuncture.com

> Megumi 'Mega' Hirayama DOM

>

>

>> > [Original Message]

>> > John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

>> > <Chinese Medicine >

>> > 10/25/2004 11:59:59 AM

>> > Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Phil-

>> > The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

>> > areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE

>> > BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into

>> > the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting

>> > " attack " point, as striking the area renders the

>> > opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck

>> > correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts).

>> > The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area,

>> > which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the

>> > immune points should relieve pain on this area.

>> > John Garbarini

>> >

>> > --- < wrote:

>> >

>>> > > Hi All & John,

>>> > >

>>> > > John Garbarini wrote:

>>>> > > > Shanna- How about Japanese immune points, around

>>> > > the elbow, near

>>>> > > > LI 11-10. Needle into the " gummy " areas. JG

>>> > >

>>> > > John, could you please describe the exact locations

>>> > > of the

>>> > > Japanese immune points? Are there any graphics on

>>> > > WWW that

>>> > > show these locations?

>>> > >

>>> > >

>>> > >

>>> > > Best regards,

>>> > >

>>> > > Email:

 

 

 

 

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Also, beyond the offensiveness of the epithet is the inaccuracy of the

nomenclature. To

say " Japanese immune points " implies that all Japanese practitioners recognize

and utilize

these points. It is like calling Tong points " Chinese extra points " . Don't be

lazy -- credit

the source. If you don't know the source, don't post the information. How can

you be

sure it is accurate? Is the " immune area of the abdomen " on the right or left?

Is the blood

stasis area on the left or right? This is a big list, as Phil points out, and

misinformation

spreads rapidly.

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The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be

> found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area

(McBurney¹s

> point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually

> indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear.

Both of

> these are checked and treated in the first session.

 

This is not quite right either.

 

The right ST27 area correlates to immunity, while the left ST27

correlates with oketsu. But you still have to perform the clearance

points to clear those areas.

 

If ST27 on the right is tender (indicating a possible immune

problem), you can use nagano, four points in the vicinity of SJ16,

SP6 or SP9 to clear the points. Press the abdominal area first to

check for tenderness, then press the clearance points in succession

to see if they clear the tenderness in the abdomen. Choose the 1-2

best points to needle from those that clear the best.

 

For ST27 on the left (oketsu, stagnation), the clearance points are

LU5(L) LR4(L) if no change ST30*, SP10. My clearance points may be

slightly different from others due to who I've studied with.

 

--brian

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Not to belabor the point, you mean R ST 25 to 27?

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

-

" John Garbarini " <johnlg_2000

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, October 25, 2004 10:48 AM

Re: Re:- snake bite & Japanese immune points

 

 

>

>

> Phil-

> The Jap immune points are located in the gelosis

> areas starting from LI-11 down and directly OVER THE

> BONE there. Usually, 2-3 needles are put perp. into

> the area. This area is also an oriental-style fighting

> " attack " point, as striking the area renders the

> opponent's hands unable to make a fist, if struck

> correctly. (I'm not a student of martial arts).

> The immune area on the hara is the L ST 25-27 area,

> which will be painful upon palpation. Needling the

> immune points should relieve pain on this area.

> John Garbarini

>

> --- < wrote:

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Share on other sites

The location of the abdominal findings is incorrect, it should be

found on the patient¹s right side near the ileocecal valve area (McBurney¹s

point) near St 25-27. The right abdomen of the patient is usually

indicative of blood stagnation also an important sign to clear. Both of

these are checked and treated in the first session. I hope this helps with

any confusion. Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

 

Appreciate this post. Like to add:

 

McBurney's point is somewhat differently located than the Matsumoto-Nagano

Lung area at ST 25-27.

 

McBurney's is at junction of distal 1/3 with the medial 2/3 on the line

which joins

the umbilicus to the R anterior superior iliac spine, ASIS.

 

Depending on the type of abdome, it can lie very far from tne ST 25-27 area.

 

I've found the ST 25-27 area to be not very easily marked. The actual

dimensions by

Matsumoto are a sort of triangle with:

a. the medial vertical formed by the Ren

b. the base by a line extending from Ren at level of ST 27, to ST 27, 2 cun

away

c. the hypotoneuse so to say by a line which runs from Ren at umbilicus and

slants

downwards and outwards to ST 27.

 

Somewhere there one throws in K 16.

 

In clinic I've found more a vague induration or painful knot at some point

in this

triangle. It may be no more than a cm in diameter.

 

Deep breath. Sometimes I've found something way down into the abdomen, more

like 4 cun away from Ren, at level of or below ST 27.

 

This location is applicable only in order to release this reflex Matsumoto

style.

 

For all other purposes, when releasing the LU in general, and not as a

reflex.

any induration anywhere on L abdomen serves as significant.

 

The exact Matsumoto reflex requires a release by:

1. L LU 5

2. R LV 4

3. R LU 5, in that order.

 

The general abdominal release requires a needle in any induration on LU

channel between wrist and elbow on R forearm.

 

The ST 25-27 reflex is either released with points at 1 to 3 above, if it is

only a simple release.

 

If you are releasing the Immune Reflex at point Evil Wind inferior and

anterior

to the attachment of sternomastoid into the mastoid, you will need to work

with the very marvelous LI 11, and 10, but always found at wired locations.

 

If this has tuned out to be a drafty post, ask Mike. He started the whole

thing. :-)

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

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