RE: Autoclaving & needle sterilisation - Fire Needles and Needle Moxa

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Attilio,

 

Attilio wrote:

> Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise an AP

> needle. ... Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all

> bacteria, so why do you think a naked flame can?

 

Autoclaving, properly done (20-40 minuteds at the proper pressure)

can kill all BACTERIA, PROTOZOA AND FUNGI, but does NOT kill

certain VIRUSES.

 

In particular, PRION-infected material remains infective after total

ashing at 600 DegC.

 

IMO, to reuse needles (including 7-Star & plum-blossom needles,

even after " standard autoclaving " , in other human patients shows

gross disrespect for them. It places them at risk of fatal cross-

infection for the sake of saving a few cents on single-use needles.

 

IMO, needle re-use between patients is an act of gross

professional misconduct. All National AP Authorities should BAN

that practice absolutely. IMO, practitioners found guilty of such

professional misconduct should be struck off the Register and the

withdrawal of their Licence to Practice should be made public.

 

If one wants to re-use needles in the SAME patient, one might give

him/her the used needles and ask him to boil them for at least 30

minutes before bringing them back for re-use at the next session.

 

Even that gives the AP profession a bad public image; patients will

(rightly) question the penny-pinching mentality of practitioners who

ask them to boil up their needles!

 

Some of my clients (especially first-timers), including those who

bring their DOGS for AP, specifically ask if I re-use needles. They

do NOT want their DOGS needled unless I can show them that I

use sterile needles from an unopened blister-pack.

 

Colleagues, wake up to this reality. I urge ALL of you to act on it!

We have enough on our plates to keep the Quackbusters off our

backs than to hand them the ammunition to finish us off!

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

When I replied to Attilio's message, I had no yet read Phil's. I also think we

should be using single-use disposable needles. That is all that I use even

though this is not required by my state (California). Phil is right about the

difficulty in Prion eradication - they are scary phenomenon. I disagree though

with his general claim that autoclaving will not render viruses non-infectious.

While I support the concept of only using single-use pre-sterilized disposable

needles, I think we should be careful not to overstate the danger that might

come with properly sterilizing acupuncture needles. Acupuncture needles are

likely the most easily sterilized type to medical equipment imaginable. A very

thin, solid metal wire. The vast majority of problems (failures) historically

associated with sterilization of medical equipment has been due to the desire of

users to find the minimum time and temperature so as to not wear out the

equipment too soon because of cost. The accepted time and pressure standard for

autoclaves is 15 pounds of pressure for 15 minutes. In California, we set a

standard of 30 pounds for 30 minutes - essentially making it four times the

accepted standard. The second most common problem with autoclaving failures has

to do with the difficulties associated with the physical cleaning that should

proceed the autoclaving process. Equipment that has complex, irregular surfaces

(like dental drills) are difficult to clean before autoclaving. A solid

acupuncture needle has no place for matter to accumulate except the region where

the shaft meets the handle. The use of ultra-sonic cleaning devices (such as a

jewelry cleaner) knocks trapped matter free so that autoclaving will then be

quite effective. Of course, there are things that can go wrong with the

autoclave or the manner in which it is used, but most all of these mistakes can

be caught by using the right type to autoclaving testing device. The newer

generations of these devices are remarkably accurate. My bottom line here is

that any properly autoclaved acupuncture needle poses much less of a health risk

than virtually every bit of dental equipment and many other devices used in many

fields of healthcare. While I agree acupuncturists should avoid all concerns by

using single-use pre-sterilized disposable needles, we should also put our

equipment into their proper perspective within the realm of medical devices.

Matt Bauer

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, October 24, 2004 3:14 PM

RE: Autoclaving & needle " sterilisation " - Fire Needles and

Needle Moxa

 

 

Hi All, & Attilio,

 

Attilio wrote:

> Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise an AP

> needle. ... Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all

> bacteria, so why do you think a naked flame can?

 

Autoclaving, properly done (20-40 minuteds at the proper pressure)

can kill all BACTERIA, PROTOZOA AND FUNGI, but does NOT kill

certain VIRUSES.

 

In particular, PRION-infected material remains infective after total

ashing at 600 DegC.

 

IMO, to reuse needles (including 7-Star & plum-blossom needles,

even after " standard autoclaving " , in other human patients shows

gross disrespect for them. It places them at risk of fatal cross-

infection for the sake of saving a few cents on single-use needles.

 

IMO, needle re-use between patients is an act of gross

professional misconduct. All National AP Authorities should BAN

that practice absolutely. IMO, practitioners found guilty of such

professional misconduct should be struck off the Register and the

withdrawal of their Licence to Practice should be made public.

 

If one wants to re-use needles in the SAME patient, one might give

him/her the used needles and ask him to boil them for at least 30

minutes before bringing them back for re-use at the next session.

 

Even that gives the AP profession a bad public image; patients will

(rightly) question the penny-pinching mentality of practitioners who

ask them to boil up their needles!

 

Some of my clients (especially first-timers), including those who

bring their DOGS for AP, specifically ask if I re-use needles. They

do NOT want their DOGS needled unless I can show them that I

use sterile needles from an unopened blister-pack.

 

Colleagues, wake up to this reality. I urge ALL of you to act on it!

We have enough on our plates to keep the Quackbusters off our

backs than to hand them the ammunition to finish us off!

 

 

 

Best regards,

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man

doing it "

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- < wrote:

 

 

Autoclaving, properly done (20-40 minuteds at the

proper pressure)

can kill all BACTERIA, PROTOZOA AND FUNGI, but does

NOT kill

certain VIRUSES.

 

In particular, PRION-infected material remains

infective after total

ashing at 600 DegC.

 

IMO, to reuse needles (including 7-Star & plum-blossom

needles,

even after " standard autoclaving " , in other human

patients shows

gross disrespect for them. It places them at risk of

fatal cross-

infection for the sake of saving a few cents on

single-use needles.<

 

 

A) I was talking about EO gas Autoclaving

B) I was talking about using said autoclave to render

a needle that had never been used sterile before using

it a single tim to treat a single patient.

 

Attilio and Marcos were responding to that.

 

Doc

[Guest guest]

My last order of needles through Lhasa Medical in Boston cost me 1.7

cents per needle. The cost of needles has drastically dropped in the

past 5 years or so in my experience. Why anyone would risk autoclaving

is beyond me. Would you permit an auto-claved needle to enter you or a

member of your family? I surely would not!

 

 

> Hi All, & Attilio,

>

> Attilio wrote:

> < Of course a naked flame is not sufficient to sterilise an AP

> < needle. ... Autoclaving, as Phil pointed out, cannot kill off all

> < bacteria, so why do you think a naked flame can?

>

> Autoclaving, properly done (20-40 minuteds at the proper pressure)

> can kill all BACTERIA, PROTOZOA AND FUNGI, but does NOT kill

> certain VIRUSES.

>

> In particular, PRION-infected material remains infective after total

> ashing at 600 DegC.

>

> IMO, to reuse needles (including 7-Star & plum-blossom needles,

> even after " standard autoclaving " , in other human patients shows

> gross disrespect for them. It places them at risk of fatal cross-

> infection for the sake of saving a few cents on single-use needles.

>

> IMO, needle re-use between patients is an act of gross

> professional misconduct. All National AP Authorities should BAN

> that practice absolutely. IMO, practitioners found guilty of such

> professional misconduct should be struck off the Register and the

> withdrawal of their Licence to Practice should be made public.

>

> If one wants to re-use needles in the SAME patient, one might give

> him/her the used needles and ask him to boil them for at least 30

> minutes before bringing them back for re-use at the next session.

>

> Even that gives the AP profession a bad public image; patients will

> (rightly) question the penny-pinching mentality of practitioners who

> ask them to boil up their needles!

>

> Some of my clients (especially first-timers), including those who

> bring their DOGS for AP, specifically ask if I re-use needles. They

> do NOT want their DOGS needled unless I can show them that I

> use sterile needles from an unopened blister-pack.

>

> Colleagues, wake up to this reality. I urge ALL of you to act on it!

> We have enough on our plates to keep the Quackbusters off our

> backs than to hand them the ammunition to finish us off!

>

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: >

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...>

wrote:

> > If one wants to re-use needles in the SAME patient, one might give

> him/her the used needles and ask him to boil them for at least 30

> minutes before bringing them back for re-use at the next session.

>

> Even that gives the AP profession a bad public image; patients will

> (rightly) question the penny-pinching mentality of practitioners who

> ask them to boil up their needles!

>

 

Not only that, but you could be held liable for what happens to that needle once

it leaves

the office. You would be amazed what some patients will try. I've had to refuse

patients

who wanted to take a needle home to show their friends. I've had patients who

call OMS

and order their own needles to do acupuncture on themselves between visits

despite my

admonitions. I've seen people sell " antique " (i.e. used) acupuncture needles on

ebay. If

someone to whom you give a needle uses it on another person and injures them,

guess

who is liable?

 

I've seen some " best practices " recommendations which discourage use of

intradermals for

that reason, though i'm less inclined to worry about them.

 

robert hayden