description of pathology, was fused cervical vertabrae

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...>

wrote:

 

>

> Thanks much for the description of the Nine Needles that you have been

> trained in. In is interesting to see how these Needle techniques

> extend the the types of treatments that can be applied. I would not

> even call them acupuncture. " Needling " would seem to be more appropriate.

 

some of the instruments used can only be loosely described as needles, more of a

bodywork modality really. a lot of needling i do is non-inserted (sesshokushin

or contact

needling). so the lines are pretty well blurred.

 

>

>

> I figure every " family " has their own way of describing what they are

> attempting to " clear " . My teacher and Tom Tam call it " cold qi " ,

> blockages, stagnant qi. It is all the same to me. It is " qi " that is

> not " moving " in the way it should. If it becomes very " dense " then it

> causes a " blockage " . It is just like the river mud that accumulates

> and eventually causes an obstruction in the flow of the river itself.

> " Xie qi " , I guess, would be another way of naming this phenomenon.

>

 

 

pathology description is another thorn in the terminology briarpatch.

practitioners tend to

develop descriptions of their work based on their chosen methods and what they

find

useful. i trained for years in toyohari, which is a style of acupuncture that

emphasizes

palpation, especially of the pulse but also the abdomen, channels,

supraclavicular area,

etc. the description of pathology is more based on felt sensation than on

theoretical

concerns -- of course they talk about 6 evils etc but in practice it generally

doesn't get

differentiated much beyond kyo-jitsu (deficiency & excess and some other non-

classical descriptions like deficiency-type excess).

 

so pathology description in classical terms is very succint: there is something

in the body

causing problems, we'll call it ja ki, and it must be removed (in addition to

supplementing

the sei ki or zheng qi, which is the most important part of treatment). ja ki

causes

symptoms based on the channels involved, but the nature of it is known through

the

pulse, and specific techniques for its removal are based on pulse findings. the

description

of the nature of the ja ki and its associated technique come from the tactile

sensation of

the pulse -- for example floating and wiry (fujitsu, genjitsu which actually

have exterior

and circulatory associations) are used but more common are techniques based on

pulse

findings in which the sensation on the fingers is one of feeling dead leaves,

twigs or dust

(ko, ken, jin). so ja ki often gets described as ko-type, ken-type or jin-type.

there are

some theoretical associations but they are of limited use and no real

pathomechanistic

theory is used.

 

also degrees of skin tension and soft tissue induration and combinations thereof

are

deemed important and differentiated, again using tactile description --

indurations feel

like rubber or clay or dessicated bone, skin tension may be slack while

underlying soft

tissue is indurated, etc, and there are technical descriptions for these

phenomena based

on felt senses and the techniques used to address them.

 

heat and cold are not useful in that no herbs are used and moxibustion is used

freely even

in inflammatory conditions -- though the type of moxibustion and specific

techniques are

differentiated.

 

the preceding description is really specific to toyohari and does not even

represent other

schools of meridian therapy, many of which do use pathomechanism, heat/cold,

etc. but i

think it does illustrate some of the problems inherent in communication and

ultimately

education.

 

i was originally trained in TCM but began my TH studies while still in school; i

have taught

standard TCM curriculum for five years at various schools but my acumoxa

practice cannot

be described as TCM. i have no problems understanding and teaching the standard

classroom material but it does make it damn hard to teach as a clinical

instructor -- i tend

to organize my clinical data around palpation and felt sense and constantly need

to

translate this into TCM-speak for students, and much of it doesn't cross over.

 

anyway, some musings on the subject. my yard has plenty of dead leaves to

palpate so i'd

best leave the discussion here.

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert,

>

> some of the instruments used can only be loosely described as

>needles, more of a bodywork modality really. a lot of needling i do

is non-inserted (sesshokushin or contact needling). so the lines are

pretty well blurred.

 

This makes lots of sense. Your description of your work is starting to

fill in lots of blanks. It is extending my understanding of how

" needling " was classically taught and practiced. Your messages, and

this forum, has been very helpful in this regard. The classical

" toolkit " appears to have been (is) much more robust than I had

formally understood it to be.

>

> pathology description is another thorn in the terminology

>briarpatch. practitioners tend to develop descriptions of their

work based on their chosen methods and what they find useful.

 

Yes, I would very much agree. Actually, my own learning process has

been quite interesting. I learn by doing. For example, the other day I

placed my hand's on a person's Hara (lower, middle burners) and

noticed a " jumping " type of reaction. A I proceeded to do bodywork, I

began to see a " pattern " , which I will henceforth remember. Now, I

really do not need to put any words to this pattern, but suppose I

wanted to tell someone about it. If this were the case, then I would

have to begin to develop a vocabulary that would describe the feeling

of the Hara and how it manifested in the legs.

 

So it is the necessity to " describe " the situation that would

necessitate a " new vocabulary " that would be very specific to the way

I do bodywork. Maybe I will call it " Flowing Qi Therapy " . I could

copywrite it and give seminars. :-) My guess is that the vocabulary of

all styles and modalities was developed in the same way. Only it gets

kind of awkward and wierd when a vocabulary for one modality is

applied to another that really requires an entirely different

vocabularly. Homeopathic reperatorization is exactly the vocabularly

for Homeopathy, and is very comparable to herbs and flower remedies.

However, it is totally unsatisfactory for bodywork.

 

 

>i trained for years in toyohari, which is a style of acupuncture that

>emphasizes palpation, especially of the pulse but also the abdomen,

>channels, supraclavicular area, etc. the description of pathology

>is more based on felt sensation than on theoretical concerns

 

Yes, this is very similar to what I am learning. Partly in a

structured manner and partly on a more ad hoc basis.

 

 

> -- of course they talk about 6 evils etc but in practice it

>generally doesn't get

> differentiated much beyond kyo-jitsu (deficiency & excess and some

>other non- classical descriptions like deficiency-type excess

 

Similar to what I have learned, only we call it warm and cold qi,

though there are the concepts of wind, damp, sha etc. Different words

to describe the various qualities of qi along the continuum. But

actually warm and cold could be perfectly adequate. Someone asks me

what do I feel, I say it is warm or cold qi. :-) Someone asks me what

I am doing? I say I am removing the cold qi and allowing warm qi to

flow - just like oil in a car. When I use qigong I say I am filling

the gas tank with more fuel (energy). Very simple ideas that everyone

can easily relate to. I think simplicity enables everyone to

participate in the maintenance of their own health.

 

).

>

> so pathology description in classical terms is very succint: there

is something in the body

> causing problems, we'll call it ja ki, and it must be removed (in

ddition to supplementing

> the sei ki or zheng qi, which is the most important part of treatment).

 

Yes. This is how I look at it also.

 

> ja ki causes

> symptoms based on the channels involved, but the nature of it is

known through the

> pulse, and specific techniques for its removal are based on pulse

>findings.

 

At this point in my experiences, I try not to " diagnose " or analyze. I

just try to move the cold qi out and allow warm qi to flow in. But I

do " listen " to feel and hear (from the client) what is happening. My

practice may evolve in another direction.

 

 

>the description of the nature of the ja ki and its associated

>technique come from the tactile sensation of the pulse -- for

>example floating and wiry (fujitsu, genjitsu which actually have

>exterior and circulatory associations) are used but more common are

>techniques based on pulse findings in which the sensation on the

>fingers is one of feeling dead leaves, twigs or dust

> (ko, ken, jin).

 

I also try to put a " macro " image to the quality of sensations that I

am feeling. It helps me create an image of the body as a whole, and it

also allows me to communicate with my client. A client may ask why

his/her joints hurt. I say, it is like a branch on a tree. When the

branch is dry because it is not getting water, then it will turn brown

and become very breakable. When it is green and is getting water then

it is healthier and more flexible. It is better able to withstand

unexpected events (such as a hurricane) and is better able to resist

disease since the water acts as an internal cleanser.

 

>

> also degrees of skin tension and soft tissue induration and

combinations thereof are

> deemed important and differentiated, again using tactile description

-- indurations feel

> like rubber or clay or dessicated bone, skin tension may be slack

while underlying soft

> tissue is indurated, etc, and there are technical descriptions for

these phenomena based

> on felt senses and the techniques used to address them.

 

Yes, all this is very similar to the way I approach the process. I can

feel the skin. Is it resilient? Does it feel like it is filled with

energy (qi) or is it " empty " . Is it a nice color (showing qi and blood

flow) or is it brown with stagnation. Does it feel like " sand " (sha)

or is it smooth as a flowing river. All of this gives me a very good

idea of the " person " .

>

> heat and cold are not useful in that no herbs are used and

>moxibustion is used freely even

> in inflammatory conditions -- though the type of moxibustion and

>specific techniques are differentiated.

 

I am looking forward to taking your moxibustion class. It will be

interesting to see whether qigong treatment and moxibustion are

interchangeable or whether one is more applicable than the other given

certain situations. I think it would be much easier to train a person

to use moxibustion than qigong.

>

> the preceding description is really specific to toyohari and does

>not even represent other schools of meridian therapy, many of which

>do use pathomechanism, heat/cold, etc. but i think it does

>illustrate some of the problems inherent in communication and

>ultimately education.

 

It is great to read these descriptions. I can see the similarities and

the differences from what I am learning.

>

> i was originally trained in TCM but began my TH studies while still

in school; i have taught

> standard TCM curriculum for five years at various schools but my

acumoxa practice cannot

> be described as TCM. i have no problems understanding and teaching

the standard

> classroom material but it does make it damn hard to teach as a

clinical instructor -- i tend

> to organize my clinical data around palpation and felt sense and

constantly need to

> translate this into TCM-speak for students, and much of it doesn't

cross over.

 

From a student's perspective, I would much rather learn more about

your acumoxa practice. It seems much more applicable to bodywork and

also it seems like it would have more practical every day use.

Sometimes the textbook learning seems very remote and inaccessible -

particularly if it is primarily oriented towards matching symptom

patterns to herb patterns. You may want to consider this in your

future courses.

>

> anyway, some musings on the subject. my yard has plenty of dead

leaves to palpate so i'd

> best leave the discussion here.

 

Thanks for your musings. I very much enjoyed reading about your

practice. I learned a lot.

 

Regards,

Rich