Cordyceps

March 3, 2008

Hi John & All,

My notes (mainly from WWW) on Cordyceps are:

PINYIN NAME: Dongchongxiacao; Chongcao; Dongchongcao

LATIN NAME: Cordyceps Sinensis Pulvis (fungus + Hepialus Varians

Larvae); Cordyceps Sinensis Stroma On Larva Of Hepialus Armoricanus

ENGLISH NAME: Silkworm Fungus; Chinese Caterpillar Fungus on larva

corpse of Hepialus armoricanus; Cordyceps Medical Fungus; " Winter Worm,

Summer Grass " ; " Fruits " from head of dead silkworm larvae / insects; one of

dearest & most valuable Hbs In TCM; Elixir Of Life

HERB CLASS: Tonic~ Tone Yang in Yangxu

NATURE: Even; Sweet; Warm

CHANNELS: LU; KI

DOSE: As Dec: 4.5-15g; Powder: l.5-2.0g BID / TID; As Dec~ oral: 3-9g / d;

Pulverised~ oral: 1.5-3.0g / dose; also as pills / Powder w other drugs

ACTIONS: See www.Ancientway.com/pages/cordyceps.html

(1) Tone KI*; Tone KI Yang; Enrich Jing* (both Yin & Yang); Boost KI

Metabolism; Boost KI transport Fx; KI Protector; Tone KI Yuanqi; Rectify

Endocrine Fxs; Boost Libido + Sexual Fx; Boost Erection; Boost brain

power; Strengthen Bone + Sinew / Tendon & Muscle; Speed Growth;

Strengthen physical structure, esp Strengthen loin, knees & ankles; Speed

Healing;

(2) Tone KI & Aid LU / respiration* (Bushen Yifei); Tone LU*; Tone LU Yin;

Clear Phlegm; Ease Cough & Ease Asthma / panting (Zhike Pingchuan);

Antidyspnoea; Ease Wheeze / prevent LU / respiratory diseases; Aid KI to

Grasp LU Qi & Aid inspiration; Haemostat; Spasmolytic~ smooth muscle,

esp of bronchi & SI-LI;

(3) Tonic~ general; Restorative; Tone Yang; Tone Yin; Tone Qi in Xu +

debility, weakness in consumptive diseases; Tonic~ physical; Boost physical

performance, muscle strength; Tonic~ general, esp in old age, debility,

convalescence / postoperative / postpartum / after taxation (exertion~

excessive); Boost Stamina / endurance / Physical Strength / Performance;

Strengthen body; athlete's Hb; long distance Tonic**;

(4) Also: Adaptogen / Antistress; Antioxidant / Antiageing; Antihypoxia

(Boost Hypoxic Tolerance); Aid memory; Enrich Weiqi; Immunomodulator,

esp Immunostimulant, esp + other Tonic Hbs; Antiinflammation;

Antibacterial; Antifungal; Antivirus; AntiHIV; Anticancer; Rectify CNS;

Calming; Calm Shen; Strengthen Mind; Tone HT / Cardiotonic; Quicken HT

Xue (Vascular Aid); Boost HT muscle driving power; Boost RCC /

endurance; Hypotensor; Vasodilator~ HT~ arteries & peripheral vessels;

Hypocholesterolaemic; Resolve LV Qizhi / depression; LV Protector; LV~

Antihepatitic; LV~ Prevent fibrosis; Normalise GOT & GPT; Antiascites in LV

cirrhosis; Antidiabetes: Boost insulin secretion; Appetiser; Tone ST;

Antiulcer~ ST ulcer stress-related

CLINICAL USES:

(1) KI Xu* / KI Yuanqixu / Jing Insufficiency* / KI Yangxu w Cold Aversion,

mental sluggishness; Bone / Sinew / Tendon / Muscle weakness; growth

retardation~ pediatric; physical / structural weakness; Endocrine DysFxs w

sexual neurasthenia, frigidity, infertility, libido~ low / Sexual DysFx; KI Xu /

KI

Yangxu w loin pain~ chronic, impotence / ED, emission~ seminal /

spermatorrhoea; loin, knees & ankles lassitude / weakness / pain / ache;

healing~ slow; alopecia, vertigo & tinnitus; backache dt trauma, fatigue,

stress / ageing~ premature; nephritis;

(2) KI & LU Xu* / LU Qixu w respiratory diseases / DysFx*; LU Yinxu;

Phlegm / sputum excess & lacrimation w cough / asthma / panting /

dyspnoea / wheeze; spasm~ smooth muscle, esp of bronchi & SI-LI / colic;

geriatric bronchitis; KI not Grasping LU Qi w asthma / dyspnoea on

inspiration; LU Xu w bleeding / cough + blood-tinged sputum, asthma &

panting;

(3) Xu Patterns (LU Yinxu & KI Yangxu) w Yin Consumed / TB, cough~

chronic; Yangxu / Yinxu w debility in consumptive diseases; after Taxation

(exertion~ excessive) / Xu Pattern / Qixu in restoration of health in

convalescence w weakness / debility~ general; weakness; physical

performance / muscle strength poor; senile weakness, debility,

convalescence / postoperative / postpartum (its Restore effect is slow, long

period of use is needed); stamina / endurance / physical strength / athletic

performance poor**;

(4) Also: stress; oxidative stress / ageing~ premature; hypoxia / Hypoxic

Tolerance~ low; memory~ poor; Weiqixu; Immuno-mediated diseases, esp

immunosuppression; inflammation; infections (bacterial, viral, HIV, fungal &

yeast (candidiasis); cancer; senility; degenerative diseases; CNS DysFx;

nervousness, tension, Shen Disturbed; mental weakness; HT Xu; HT Xue

Insufficiency / HT muscle weakness; anaemia / endurance~ poor; vascular

diseases; hypertension; circulation~ poor / vasoconstriction~ HT~ arteries &

peripheral vessels; hypercholesterolaemia; LV~ hepatitis; LV~ fibrosis w

ascites; LV Toxin w high GOT & GPT; LV Qizhi / depression; diabetes; ST

Xu, ST ulcer stress-related; appetite~ poor

COMBINATIONS: Dongchongxiacao 10g, Kuandonghua 6g, Sangbaipi 8g,

Gancao 3g, Xiaohuixiang 2g, water 600ml in LU Xu + weakness / geriatrics

+ bronchitis~ chronic: Boil down to 200ml as 67ml servings TID;

Dongchongxiacao alone / + Shanzhuyu, Shanyao & Tusizi in KI Xu +

Erection~ DysFx, emission; loin~ pain / weak; knees~ pain / weak;

Dongchongxiacao + Shashen, Ejiao & Chuanbeimu in LU Xu + cough~

chronic, asthma~ chronic / cough + haemoptysis; Dongchongxiacao as Dec

cooked w chicken, duck / pork in Xu / debility~ chronic + sweat~

spontaneous & Cold-aversion; very costly but ranks w Lingzhi & Lurong as

Tonic~ general* & to Tone Yang* & Enrich Jing*; Ranks w Renshen, Lujiao,

Epimedium & Hailong to Tone Yang Jing* (in male athletes); Tone Yin Jing*

(in female athletes): Cordyceps & Tortoise Shell in Yinxu / Jingxu;

Immunomodulator, esp Immunostimulant, esp + other Tonic Hbs (Renshen,

Lingzhi, Lycium / Huangqi);

CAUTION dt heavy metal (Pb / Cd / As) levels, otherwise safe over long

periods but AVOID large doses (may be TOXIC); No side effects reported at

normal doses; CI: Surface Pattern; Wind Cold w cough

March 3, 2008

Hi K.

I'm posting this part of the conversation to TCM and to you, the

brothers and Phil as Bcc. I think the picture that is represented at

http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html is accurate. It's not that mysterious

to the provincial agronomists. You may be correct about the stuff that's grown

on silkworms. That " cordycps " may very well be a whole variety of fungi and not

strictly cordyceps (if at all). What's pictured at the above URL is the

wildcrafted form. There is no worm with the wildcrafted form.

I learned in part from John Zhang who was vice general manager with Gansu Meheco

(Taibo Pharmaceutical in LanZhou City). He used to work with me for several

years in my office here (late 1990s to early 2000s). He used to wild craft it

in the mountains of western Sichuan and in Qing Hai. It's like looking for a

needle in a haystack if you're not used to looking for it. John went to those

regions to study qi gong and tai ji from taoist monks. They rely on the

cordyceps wildcrafting for income. Herbs n Senses did a resonable translation

and provided a reasonable picture. We used to sell liang bags of that stuff

quite regularly when the price was lower (less than $100/liang), so I got used

to identifying good wildcrafted cordyceps. There is no worm whatsoever in the

type that is pictured at the above URL. It is only mycelium and fruiting body,

no worm at all. If you see a worm, then it's been grown on silkworm and not

wildcrafted. You can find small amounts of wildcrafted cordyceps in some herb

shops in San Francisco and in Oakland Chinatown herb shops. I've seen it there

as recently as last month. One liang is about $180 to $200. One pound is about

$2,000. I like looking at it for the value of identifying it. Otherwise it's

of no interest to me.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

Monday, March 03, 2008 11:53 AM

Re: Cordyceps

Emmanuel, et al,

When I google cordyceps and start nosing around

in the various " data " that can be found at the scads

of addresses that pop up, one thing seems quite clear.

No one even really knows wha this " organism " is, let

alone how to grow what parts of it in order to achieve

precisely what clinical effect...

<snip>

K.

Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

Hi Phil,

The information below correlates pretty well to the information diseminated

by the provincial agronomists in China who work with my company. The silk worm

is used to cultivate cordyceps traditionally. So there has always been this

method of cultivation. The wild cordyceps grows on the caterpillar of the swift

moth, and the wild cordyceps does not include any part of the caterpillar's

body. Details are below in English translation along with pictures. The

company at the URL is actually trying to sell cordyceps via the fermentation

method. But their wild cordyceps information matches the information from the

agronomists that I work with.

http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html

http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_3.html

I thought you would be interested in this since you were searching the

Internet for cordyceps information. The agronomists that I work with would not

use cultivated or fermentation-derived cordyceps. Nor would the doctors in my

company. And they would use wild-crafted cordyceps only under extremely limited

conditions. Since members of my company travel to China a great deal, we have

access to wild cordyceps from wildcrafters. We don't sell it commercially. It's

for personal use or emergency use.

<snip>

All the Best,

Emmanuel Segmen

March 4, 2008

Emmanuel,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that wildcrafted Cordyceps

doesn't have the insect intact. Here are some photos of Cordyceps

wildcrafted in Tibet:

http://www.danielwinkler.com/caterpillar_fungus_in_tibet.htm

They were taken by a guy who does tours to the area. As you can see,

the insect is intact. Are you talking about a specific type or grade

where the insect is removed?

- Bill Schoenbart

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

<mrsegmen wrote:

>

> Hi K.

>

> I'm posting this part of the conversation to TCM and to

you, the brothers and Phil as Bcc. I think the picture that is

represented at http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html is accurate.

It's not that mysterious to the provincial agronomists. You may be

correct about the stuff that's grown on silkworms. That " cordycps "

may very well be a whole variety of fungi and not strictly cordyceps

(if at all). What's pictured at the above URL is the wildcrafted

form. There is no worm with the wildcrafted form.

>

March 4, 2008

Wild Tibetan cordyceps grows with a part of a cocoon around it, there

are some species that do not like the type that grows on cicadas.

Emmanuel you are mis-informed...

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

<mrsegmen wrote:

>

> Hi K.

>

> I'm posting this part of the conversation to TCM and to

you, the brothers and Phil as Bcc. I think the picture that is

represented at http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html is accurate.

It's not that mysterious to the provincial agronomists. You may be

correct about the stuff that's grown on silkworms. That " cordycps "

may very well be a whole variety of fungi and not strictly cordyceps

(if at all). What's pictured at the above URL is the wildcrafted

form. There is no worm with the wildcrafted form.

>

> I learned in part from John Zhang who was vice general manager with

Gansu Meheco (Taibo Pharmaceutical in LanZhou City). He used to work

with me for several years in my office here (late 1990s to early

2000s). He used to wild craft it in the mountains of western Sichuan

and in Qing Hai. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack if

you're not used to looking for it. John went to those regions to

study qi gong and tai ji from taoist monks. They rely on the

cordyceps wildcrafting for income. Herbs n Senses did a resonable

translation and provided a reasonable picture. We used to sell liang

bags of that stuff quite regularly when the price was lower (less than

$100/liang), so I got used to identifying good wildcrafted cordyceps.

There is no worm whatsoever in the type that is pictured at the above

URL. It is only mycelium and fruiting body, no worm at all. If you

see a worm, then it's been grown on silkworm and not wildcrafted. You

can find small amounts of wildcrafted cordyceps in some herb shops in

San Francisco and in Oakland Chinatown herb shops. I've seen it there

as recently as last month. One liang is about $180 to $200. One

pound is about $2,000. I like looking at it for the value of

identifying it. Otherwise it's of no interest to me.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

> Monday, March 03, 2008 11:53 AM

> Re: Cordyceps

>

> Emmanuel, et al,

>

> When I google cordyceps and start nosing around

> in the various " data " that can be found at the scads

> of addresses that pop up, one thing seems quite clear.

> No one even really knows wha this " organism " is, let

> alone how to grow what parts of it in order to achieve

> precisely what clinical effect...

>

> <snip>

>

> K.

>

> Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> The information below correlates pretty well to the information

diseminated by the provincial agronomists in China who work with my

company. The silk worm is used to cultivate cordyceps traditionally.

So there has always been this method of cultivation. The wild

cordyceps grows on the caterpillar of the swift moth, and the wild

cordyceps does not include any part of the caterpillar's body.

Details are below in English translation along with pictures. The

company at the URL is actually trying to sell cordyceps via the

fermentation method. But their wild cordyceps information matches the

information from the agronomists that I work with.

>

> http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html

> http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_3.html

>

> I thought you would be interested in this since you were

searching the Internet for cordyceps information. The agronomists

that I work with would not use cultivated or fermentation-derived

cordyceps. Nor would the doctors in my company. And they would use

wild-crafted cordyceps only under extremely limited conditions. Since

members of my company travel to China a great deal, we have access to

wild cordyceps from wildcrafters. We don't sell it commercially. It's

for personal use or emergency use.

>

> <snip>

>

> All the Best,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

March 4, 2008

Here's more photos:

http://www.alohamedicinals.com/tibet.htm

Chinese Medicine , " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed wrote:

>

> Emmanuel,

>

> I'm not sure what you mean when you say that wildcrafted Cordyceps

> doesn't have the insect intact. Here are some photos of Cordyceps

> wildcrafted in Tibet:

>

> http://www.danielwinkler.com/caterpillar_fungus_in_tibet.htm

>

> They were taken by a guy who does tours to the area. As you can see,

> the insect is intact. Are you talking about a specific type or grade

> where the insect is removed?

>

> - Bill Schoenbart

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

> <mrsegmen@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi K.

> >

> > I'm posting this part of the conversation to TCM and to

> you, the brothers and Phil as Bcc. I think the picture that is

> represented at http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html is accurate.

> It's not that mysterious to the provincial agronomists. You may be

> correct about the stuff that's grown on silkworms. That " cordycps "

> may very well be a whole variety of fungi and not strictly cordyceps

> (if at all). What's pictured at the above URL is the wildcrafted

> form. There is no worm with the wildcrafted form.

> >

>

March 4, 2008

Hi Bill,

Nice picture. Read more carefully. What you are seeing as the yellowish

colored elongated portion below the dark brown fruiting body is the mycelium,

not the worm. This is the part that grows downward into the ground. The

fruiting body rises upward above the ground. There is no worm left by summer.

The worm died in the winter and was consumed and replaced by fungus cells over

the proceeding months. The yellow colored elongated portion below the ground is

only the cordyceps mycelium. No worm. Interesting, huh?

Don't take my word for it. Please! Buy just one of these from the herb shop in

your nearby Chinatown. Scrape off some of the yellow part and prepare a slide.

Look at it under the microscope. That's what I do. It's not hard. No mystery.

The picture at http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html is helpful in

describing this. In the URL that you provide, the discussion notes that

collection should take place after spore formation. Then the wildcrafter

becomes a " vector " for widespread spore dispersal.

You can also find the tightly packed silkworms with fungus grown on them.

That's the only style of " cultivation " before the advent of fermentation

technology. We can thank Genentech and Genecor for that fermentation

technology. They needed a eukaryotic cell to group up the genes for human

insulin. So they used yeast cells with the human genes inserted into the yeast

genome. Now the fermentation technology is used for growing cordyceps. My

graduate school professors in San Francisco were also scientists at Genecor and

Genetech. The San Francisco Bay area is not just a Silicon Valley computer

science center. This is also a biotech center of equal or greater merit. I had

fun working at American College of TCM in the late 1980s while also pursuing

graduate research in genetic engineering. That combination of disciplines was a

nice challenge and kept my eyes open to multiple cultures. In the interest of

disclosure, the materials for my own graduate school labs was funded largely by

Genencor.

Respectfully and gratefully,

Emmanuel Segmen

March 5, 2008

Emmanuel,

I have to disagree, although we may just be splitting hairs here. The

mycelium is the living part of the fungus that is typically

underground or in wood. You can actually see the segmented body of the

insect in Cordyceps. I agree that it is impregnated with mycelium, but

the insect's structural framework is still there. Just like a rotten

log may be soft and crumbly when impregnated with mycelium, but it is

still a log.

I have found Cordyceps militaris in the Great Smokies where you can

clearly see the abdomen of the insect with the fungus sticking out.

I'll post a photo in the Files section titled Cordyceps militaris.

- Bill

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

<mrsegmen wrote:

>

> Hi Bill,

>

> Nice picture. Read more carefully. What you are seeing as the

yellowish colored elongated portion below the dark brown fruiting body

is the mycelium, not the worm. This is the part that grows downward

into the ground. The fruiting body rises upward above the ground.

There is no worm left by summer. The worm died in the winter and was

consumed and replaced by fungus cells over the proceeding months. The

yellow colored elongated portion below the ground is only the

cordyceps mycelium. No worm. Interesting, huh?

>

> Don't take my word for it. Please! Buy just one of these from the

herb shop in your nearby Chinatown. Scrape off some of the yellow

part and prepare a slide. Look at it under the microscope. That's

what I do. It's not hard. No mystery. The picture at

http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html is helpful in describing

this. In the URL that you provide, the discussion notes that

collection should take place after spore formation. Then the

wildcrafter becomes a " vector " for widespread spore dispersal.

>

> You can also find the tightly packed silkworms with fungus grown on

them. That's the only style of " cultivation " before the advent of

fermentation technology. We can thank Genentech and Genecor for that

fermentation technology. They needed a eukaryotic cell to group up

the genes for human insulin. So they used yeast cells with the human

genes inserted into the yeast genome. Now the fermentation technology

is used for growing cordyceps. My graduate school professors in San

Francisco were also scientists at Genecor and Genetech. The San

Francisco Bay area is not just a Silicon Valley computer science

center. This is also a biotech center of equal or greater merit. I

had fun working at American College of TCM in the late 1980s while

also pursuing graduate research in genetic engineering. That

combination of disciplines was a nice challenge and kept my eyes open

to multiple cultures. In the interest of disclosure, the materials

for my own graduate school labs was funded largely by Genencor.

>

> Respectfully and gratefully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

March 5, 2008

To really split hairs with cordyceps sinesis its not the insect but

the cocoon that is left, that picture that identifies it as myclia is

incorrect.

Chinese Medicine , " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed wrote:

>

> Emmanuel,

>

> I have to disagree, although we may just be splitting hairs here. The

> mycelium is the living part of the fungus that is typically

> underground or in wood. You can actually see the segmented body of the

> insect in Cordyceps. I agree that it is impregnated with mycelium, but

> the insect's structural framework is still there. Just like a rotten

> log may be soft and crumbly when impregnated with mycelium, but it is

> still a log.

>

> I have found Cordyceps militaris in the Great Smokies where you can

> clearly see the abdomen of the insect with the fungus sticking out.

> I'll post a photo in the Files section titled Cordyceps militaris.

>

> - Bill

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

> <mrsegmen@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Bill,

> >

> > Nice picture. Read more carefully. What you are seeing as the

> yellowish colored elongated portion below the dark brown fruiting body

> is the mycelium, not the worm. This is the part that grows downward

> into the ground. The fruiting body rises upward above the ground.

> There is no worm left by summer. The worm died in the winter and was

> consumed and replaced by fungus cells over the proceeding months. The

> yellow colored elongated portion below the ground is only the

> cordyceps mycelium. No worm. Interesting, huh?

> >

> > Don't take my word for it. Please! Buy just one of these from the

> herb shop in your nearby Chinatown. Scrape off some of the yellow

> part and prepare a slide. Look at it under the microscope. That's

> what I do. It's not hard. No mystery. The picture at

> http://www.herbsnsenses.com/eng/c2_2.html is helpful in describing

> this. In the URL that you provide, the discussion notes that

> collection should take place after spore formation. Then the

> wildcrafter becomes a " vector " for widespread spore dispersal.

> >

> > You can also find the tightly packed silkworms with fungus grown on

> them. That's the only style of " cultivation " before the advent of

> fermentation technology. We can thank Genentech and Genecor for that

> fermentation technology. They needed a eukaryotic cell to group up

> the genes for human insulin. So they used yeast cells with the human

> genes inserted into the yeast genome. Now the fermentation technology

> is used for growing cordyceps. My graduate school professors in San

> Francisco were also scientists at Genecor and Genetech. The San

> Francisco Bay area is not just a Silicon Valley computer science

> center. This is also a biotech center of equal or greater merit. I

> had fun working at American College of TCM in the late 1980s while

> also pursuing graduate research in genetic engineering. That

> combination of disciplines was a nice challenge and kept my eyes open

> to multiple cultures. In the interest of disclosure, the materials

> for my own graduate school labs was funded largely by Genencor.

> >

> > Respectfully and gratefully,

> > Emmanuel Segmen

> >

March 5, 2008

Hi Bill,

I'm good with that. I honor your respectful disagreement and actually

appreciate it. It sounds like you are genuinely stating what you've seen. Me,

too. I think that's the purpose of this forum. I especially like it when

people can be both genuine as well as respectful at the same time.

I've cut open longitudinally the wild cordyceps pieces that I have used when

I've made formulas. I do this to look. You are correct that the fungal growth

has followed passively the structural morphology of the worm. However, there

were no tissues left at all of the worm in the ones I've used. Only the fungus

was there. I imagine that the fully developed fruiting body with spores need to

develop for this situation to obtain. I've checked microscopically ... partly

because I'm obsessive. (^;

Do you use a microscope in your clinic to check patients for fungus infections?

You do a skin or nail scraping, put a drop of KOH on it, stain it and look.

That's how I was trained in medical school at University of Texas back in the

1980s. Am I old-fashioned? Maybe. But I like to look at things with my own

eyes. I teach microscopic anatomy now along with gross anatomy. I'm biology

faculty at Merritt College, Oakland, CA. So I'm used to looking through the

microscope and teaching microscopic morphology. Fungus is something I think any

physician needs to be able to identify under the scope along with gram positive

and negative bacteria. My own family doc from my childhood did the same. He

honored me by giving me his office microscope when I entered medical school in

1985. I still have it and use it regularly. In my medical school, I could not

even sit for the board exam in micro (our final exam) without having

demonstrated good slide preparation technique and microscope identification.

This is not an issue of being " informed " or misinformed. This is a matter of

looking. If you have found fungus infected worms that still had animal tissues,

then this is something different from my experience with wild cordyceps. I

certainly trust your eyes and sensibilities for knowing what you've handled. I

can believe you without your having to post a picture unless you'd like to do

that. When I looked microscopically at my cordyceps, I found no animal tissue.

I have never used the silkworm style cordyceps, but I've obtained it for others.

These appeared to my eyes to still have the silkworm together with the fungal

development. There was, however, no fruiting body on the fungus from my

observation. It looked to me (in my humble opinion) like a quick and dirty

cultivation technique for marketing purposes.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

March 5, 2008

The way to really get an idea is not to use a microscope but to simply

pour some hot water on it and look as it expands, the fiberous cocoon

part is unlike any fungus, and has a fungus core it is obivous.

With respect,

-JB

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

<mrsegmen wrote:

>

> Hi Bill,

>

> I'm good with that. I honor your respectful disagreement and

actually appreciate it. It sounds like you are genuinely stating what

you've seen. Me, too. I think that's the purpose of this forum. I

especially like it when people can be both genuine as well as

respectful at the same time.

>

> I've cut open longitudinally the wild cordyceps pieces that I have

used when I've made formulas. I do this to look. You are correct

that the fungal growth has followed passively the structural

morphology of the worm. However, there were no tissues left at all of

the worm in the ones I've used. Only the fungus was there. I imagine

that the fully developed fruiting body with spores need to develop for

this situation to obtain. I've checked microscopically ... partly

because I'm obsessive. (^;

>

> Do you use a microscope in your clinic to check patients for fungus

infections? You do a skin or nail scraping, put a drop of KOH on it,

stain it and look. That's how I was trained in medical school at

University of Texas back in the 1980s. Am I old-fashioned? Maybe.

But I like to look at things with my own eyes. I teach microscopic

anatomy now along with gross anatomy. I'm biology faculty at Merritt

College, Oakland, CA. So I'm used to looking through the microscope

and teaching microscopic morphology. Fungus is something I think any

physician needs to be able to identify under the scope along with gram

positive and negative bacteria. My own family doc from my childhood

did the same. He honored me by giving me his office microscope when I

entered medical school in 1985. I still have it and use it regularly.

In my medical school, I could not even sit for the board exam in micro

(our final exam) without having demonstrated good slide preparation

technique and microscope identification.

>

> This is not an issue of being " informed " or misinformed. This is a

matter of looking. If you have found fungus infected worms that still

had animal tissues, then this is something different from my

experience with wild cordyceps. I certainly trust your eyes and

sensibilities for knowing what you've handled. I can believe you

without your having to post a picture unless you'd like to do that.

When I looked microscopically at my cordyceps, I found no animal

tissue. I have never used the silkworm style cordyceps, but I've

obtained it for others. These appeared to my eyes to still have the

silkworm together with the fungal development. There was, however, no

fruiting body on the fungus from my observation. It looked to me (in

my humble opinion) like a quick and dirty cultivation technique for

marketing purposes.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

March 6, 2008

Thanks, Jason, for your comments and for your URLs with pictures. Nice

pictures.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

March 6, 2008

Very interesting discussion on Cordyceps. And I agree with Emmanuel

that cordial disagreement can lead to new information.

Check out the file I posted in the Files section titled " Cordyceps

militaris.doc " . It is from slide presentations that I did at the

Asheville Mushroom Fair and at the Santa Cruz Fungus Fair. In the

photo, you can still clearly see the insect part. I handled it, and it

was still hard, black and shiny. Of course, this is a different

species, so the degree of colonization by the mycelium may be

different. There are also individual differences, as in this set of

photos of Cordyceps militaris:

http://ocid.nacse.org/research/cordyceps/html/cmilitaris.html

The one on the left looks dark and shiny like the one I saw, but the

one on the upper right is impregnated with mycelium.

Assuming that the " insect " part in Cordyceps sinensis is mostly

mycelium by the time the fruiting body appears, how much " insect

chemistry " is still present? For example, do the Ecdysteroids from the

insect play a role in the adaptogenic effect of Cordyceps?

- Bill Schoenbart

Chinese Medicine , " jasonwcom "

<jasonwcom wrote:

>

> The way to really get an idea is not to use a microscope but to simply

> pour some hot water on it and look as it expands, the fiberous cocoon

> part is unlike any fungus, and has a fungus core it is obivous.

>

> With respect,

> -JB

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

> <mrsegmen@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Bill,

> >

> > I'm good with that. I honor your respectful disagreement and

> actually appreciate it. It sounds like you are genuinely stating what

> you've seen. Me, too. I think that's the purpose of this forum. I

> especially like it when people can be both genuine as well as

> respectful at the same time.

> >

> > I've cut open longitudinally the wild cordyceps pieces that I have

> used when I've made formulas. I do this to look. You are correct

> that the fungal growth has followed passively the structural

> morphology of the worm. However, there were no tissues left at all of

> the worm in the ones I've used. Only the fungus was there. I imagine

> that the fully developed fruiting body with spores need to develop for

> this situation to obtain. I've checked microscopically ... partly

> because I'm obsessive. (^;

> >

> > Do you use a microscope in your clinic to check patients for fungus

> infections? You do a skin or nail scraping, put a drop of KOH on it,

> stain it and look. That's how I was trained in medical school at

> University of Texas back in the 1980s. Am I old-fashioned? Maybe.

> But I like to look at things with my own eyes. I teach microscopic

> anatomy now along with gross anatomy. I'm biology faculty at Merritt

> College, Oakland, CA. So I'm used to looking through the microscope

> and teaching microscopic morphology. Fungus is something I think any

> physician needs to be able to identify under the scope along with gram

> positive and negative bacteria. My own family doc from my childhood

> did the same. He honored me by giving me his office microscope when I

> entered medical school in 1985. I still have it and use it regularly.

> In my medical school, I could not even sit for the board exam in micro

> (our final exam) without having demonstrated good slide preparation

> technique and microscope identification.

> >

> > This is not an issue of being " informed " or misinformed. This is a

> matter of looking. If you have found fungus infected worms that still

> had animal tissues, then this is something different from my

> experience with wild cordyceps. I certainly trust your eyes and

> sensibilities for knowing what you've handled. I can believe you

> without your having to post a picture unless you'd like to do that.

> When I looked microscopically at my cordyceps, I found no animal

> tissue. I have never used the silkworm style cordyceps, but I've

> obtained it for others. These appeared to my eyes to still have the

> silkworm together with the fungal development. There was, however, no

> fruiting body on the fungus from my observation. It looked to me (in

> my humble opinion) like a quick and dirty cultivation technique for

> marketing purposes.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> > Emmanuel Segmen

> >

March 6, 2008

Furthermore, I don't believe there is cordyceps cultivated on

silkworms, at least I've never seen it and I would think I would've in

one of the Chinatown shops...See these pictures all are wild, they

don't even picture the high grade that is short like a thumb and has a

straight stout shape, in Vancouver herb shops they have huge jars with

thousands stacked.

http://beijingmuseum.gov.cn/materia/identifying/75665.shtml

Can anyone find a picture anywhere on the net of cultivated cordyceps

that has a worm attached or worm shape? I could be wrong but I have

been going broke from this herb for years I love it so much and I

speak from my experience with it, I am open to the fact I could be

wrong...I have sampled various grades and always when you brew it,

there is a fiberous cocoon around it with no medicinal value, and a

very bland taste, I've eaten those seperate and there is no effect,

its a cocoon case, if it was mycelium it would have some effect or

taste because cultivated types don't have to fruit to be effective a

lot of companies are just selling the mycelia. I don't think the

fungus can take over the cocoon part because its got a consistency

like cotton.

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "

<mrsegmen wrote:

>

> Thanks, Jason, for your comments and for your URLs with pictures.

Nice pictures.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

March 6, 2008

bill_schoenbart <plantmed

Assuming that the " insect " part in Cordyceps sinensis is mostly

mycelium by the time the fruiting body appears, how much " insect

chemistry " is still present?

I think the old adage, you are what you eat applies here, and, if the cordyceps

is grown on a medium that is different than it's natural host (rice), the

properties will be different.

Douglas Knapp

Doctoral Fellow, L.Ac.

Full Moon Acupuncture

1600 York Avenue

New York, NY 10028

212-734-1459

bill_schoenbart <plantmed

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, March 6, 2008 12:02:55 AM

Re: Cordyceps

Very interesting discussion on Cordyceps. And I agree with

Emmanuel

that cordial disagreement can lead to new information.

Check out the file I posted in the Files section titled " Cordyceps

militaris.doc " . It is from slide presentations that I did at the

Asheville Mushroom Fair and at the Santa Cruz Fungus Fair. In the

photo, you can still clearly see the insect part. I handled it, and it

was still hard, black and shiny. Of course, this is a different

species, so the degree of colonization by the mycelium may be

different. There are also individual differences, as in this set of

photos of Cordyceps militaris:

http://ocid. nacse.org/ research/ cordyceps/ html/cmilitaris. html

The one on the left looks dark and shiny like the one I saw, but the

one on the upper right is impregnated with mycelium.

Assuming that the " insect " part in Cordyceps sinensis is mostly

mycelium by the time the fruiting body appears, how much " insect

chemistry " is still present? For example, do the Ecdysteroids from the

insect play a role in the adaptogenic effect of Cordyceps?

- Bill Schoenbart

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " jasonwcom "

<jasonwcom@. ..> wrote:

>

> The way to really get an idea is not to use a microscope but to simply

> pour some hot water on it and look as it expands, the fiberous cocoon

> part is unlike any fungus, and has a fungus core it is obivous.

>

> With respect,

> -JB

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen "