Depression drugs 'little better than placebos': study

[Guest guest]

Depression drugs 'little better than placebos': study

by Katherine Haddon

Agence France Presse

02-26-2008

1 hour, 55 minutes ago

 

Best-selling anti-depressants like Prozac and Seroxat are barely more

effective than placebos in treating most people with depression, a

study led by a British university said Tuesday.

 

The research, which analysed 47 clinical trials, breaks new ground by

incorporating data not previously released by drug companies which

researchers obtained under US freedom of information laws.

 

Its findings prompted some academics and mental health campaigners to

question whether people with mild and moderate depression should be

prescribed drugs like Prozac, which has been taken by 40 million

people worldwide.

 

" The difference in improvement between patients taking placebos and

patients taking anti-depressants is not very great, " said Professor

Irving Kirsch of Hull University, in northern England, who led the

team.

 

" This means that depressed people can improve without chemical

treatments.

 

" Given these results, there seems little reason to prescribe

antidepressant medication to any but the most severely depressed

patients unless alternative treatments have failed to provide a

benefit. "

 

The study, published in the journal PLoS (Public Library of Science)

Medicine, looked at Prozac, Seroxat, Effexor and Serzone and found

the drugs were only better than a placebo for some people with severe

depression.

 

Kirsch's team said it was one of the most thorough probes into the

impact of new generation anti-depressants or selective serotonin

reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs).

 

But drug companies strongly questioned the findings.

 

A spokesman for Eli Lilly, which makes Prozac, said that " extensive

scientific and medical experience " had shown it is " an effective anti-

depressant. "

 

And GlaxoSmithKline, which makes Seroxat, said the study had not

acknowledged the " very positive benefits " of the drugs.

 

" Their conclusions are at odds with what has been seen in actual

clinical practice, " a spokesman said.

 

" It is widely recognised by experts in the field that studies in

depression are challenging and very difficult to conduct. "

 

One leading academic who has studied why drug companies only publish

some of their data on new drugs said in the wake of the findings they

should be obliged to provide full details.

 

Doctor Tim Kendall, deputy director of Britain's Royal College of

Psychiatrists research unit, said the study was " fantastically

important. "

 

" I think it's too dangerous to allow drug companies -- where profit

is a key factor -- to be able to withhold data which shows that a

drug is ineffective or harmful, " he said.

 

Alison Cobb, of British mental health charity Mind, hailed the

findings as " a serious challenge to the predominance of drugs in

treating depression. "

 

" Anti-depressants do help many people but by no means all and some

people experience severe side-effects with them, " she said.

 

" Nine out of 10 GPs (general practitioners) say they've been forced

to dish out drugs because they don't have proper access to 'talking

treatments' such as cognitive behavioural therapy, which are

recommended as the first-line treatment for mild to moderate

depression. "

 

Another mental health charity, Sane, warned the findings " could

remove what has been seen as a vital choice for thousands, " adding

people should not stop taking their drugs immediately.

 

As the study was published, the British government published details

of a 170-million-pound (225-million-euro, 335-million dollar)

programme to improve access to counselling and therapy for people

with depression.

 

Officials say this should see 900,000 more people receiving such

treatments over the next three years.

 

Agence France Presse

Inc.

[Guest guest]

At 01:46 PM 2/26/2008, you wrote:

Hmmm...and here I thought it was just a problem in the U.S.

I know what the report says, and what people say about Prozac,

but it worked for me, and I didn't get crazy on it. Same with Effexor.

Have known a number of other people who it also worked well for. They

didn't get crazy on it either. Or after they stopped taking it. Would I

have gotten better without it? Don't know. Possibly. But, I doubt it

would have been as quickly.

Something else to consider - not everyone who is depressed can or will go

to therapy. Plus, some depressions are caused by a person being ill or

disabled in some way. No doubt that people in general take too much

medication, but if we're not careful, some of the good stuff is going to

wind up disappearing as well as the not so good stuff. Just my

POV

Lynn

 

 

Depression drugs 'little better

than placebos': study

by Katherine Haddon

Agence France Presse

02-26-2008

1 hour, 55 minutes ago

Best-selling anti-depressants like Prozac and Seroxat are barely more

 

effective than placebos in treating most people with depression, a

study led by a British university said Tuesday.

The research, which analysed 47 clinical trials, breaks new ground by

 

incorporating data not previously released by drug companies which

researchers obtained under US freedom of information laws.

Its findings prompted some academics and mental health campaigners to

 

question whether people with mild and moderate depression should be

prescribed drugs like Prozac, which has been taken by 40 million

people worldwide.

" The difference in improvement between patients taking placebos and

 

patients taking anti-depressants is not very great, " said Professor

 

Irving Kirsch of Hull University, in northern England, who led the

team.

" This means that depressed people can improve without chemical

treatments.

" Given these results, there seems little reason to prescribe

antidepressant medication to any but the most severely depressed

patients unless alternative treatments have failed to provide a

benefit. "

The study, published in the journal PLoS (Public Library of Science)

 

Medicine, looked at Prozac, Seroxat, Effexor and Serzone and found

the drugs were only better than a placebo for some people with severe

 

depression.

Kirsch's team said it was one of the most thorough probes into the

impact of new generation anti-depressants or selective serotonin

reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs).

But drug companies strongly questioned the findings.

A spokesman for Eli Lilly, which makes Prozac, said that " extensive

 

scientific and medical experience " had shown it is " an

effective anti-

depressant. "

And GlaxoSmithKline, which makes Seroxat, said the study had not

acknowledged the " very positive benefits " of the

drugs.

" Their conclusions are at odds with what has been seen in actual

 

clinical practice, " a spokesman said.

" It is widely recognised by experts in the field that studies in

 

depression are challenging and very difficult to conduct. "

One leading academic who has studied why drug companies only publish

 

some of their data on new drugs said in the wake of the findings they

 

should be obliged to provide full details.

Doctor Tim Kendall, deputy director of Britain's Royal College of

Psychiatrists research unit, said the study was " fantastically

important. "

" I think it's too dangerous to allow drug companies -- where profit

 

is a key factor -- to be able to withhold data which shows that a

drug is ineffective or harmful, " he said.

Alison Cobb, of British mental health charity Mind, hailed the

findings as " a serious challenge to the predominance of drugs in

 

treating depression. "

" Anti-depressants do help many people but by no means all and some

 

people experience severe side-effects with them, " she said.

 

" Nine out of 10 GPs (general practitioners) say they've been forced

 

to dish out drugs because they don't have proper access to 'talking

treatments' such as cognitive behavioural therapy, which are

recommended as the first-line treatment for mild to moderate

depression. "

Another mental health charity, Sane, warned the findings " could

 

remove what has been seen as a vital choice for thousands, " adding

 

people should not stop taking their drugs immediately.

As the study was published, the British government published details

 

of a 170-million-pound (225-million-euro, 335-million dollar)

programme to improve access to counselling and therapy for people

with depression.

Officials say this should see 900,000 more people receiving such

treatments over the next three years.

Agence France Presse

Inc.

[Guest guest]

At 01:46 PM 2/26/2008, you

wrote:Hmmm...and here I thought it was just a problem in the U.S.

I know what the report says, and what people say about Prozac,

but it worked for me, and I didn't get crazy on it. Same with Effexor.

Have known a number of other people who it also worked well for. They

didn't get crazy on it either. Or after they stopped taking it. Would I

have gotten better without it? Don't know. Possibly. But, I doubt it

would have been as quickly.Something else to consider - not everyone who

is depressed can or will go to therapy. Plus, some depressions are caused

by a person being ill or disabled in some way. No doubt that people in

general take too much medication, but if we're not careful, some of the

good stuff is going to wind up disappearing as well as the not so good

stuff. Just my POV Lynn

Hi Lynn,

Everyone is different. There is vast array of human metabolic types, and

biochemical errors that cause depression and even the most severe of

mental illnesses. To understand the problem presented by SSRI meds spend

some time studying the work of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy. Her website contains

a ton of information

 

http://www.drugawareness.org. She predicted this epidemic of

murder/suicide decades ago, because when serotonin builds up too much in

the brain it is like the person is on psychedelic drugs such as LDS and

they are in a waking, walking nightmare. Often if they live through it,

when they really wake up they have no idea that they just massacred

someone or a bunch of people. Nearly every case of mass murder/suicide

can be linked to use of SSRI drugs. Does everyone react like this? No!

Yes, SSRI drugs do help some people, but there is what I consider a much

better way ... and it could be far more advanced today, except the

PharmaCartel took over the medical schools in the early 1900's and all

" alternatives " since then have been systematically quashed.

With the internet, the word is now getting out to the masses ...

Orthomolecular Psychiatry.

To find out more, study

 

http://alternativementalhealth.com. Almost all depression and mental

illness can be cured with the correct nutritional supplements. Most

humans today are full of hundreds of toxic chemicals and suffer from

malnutrition even if they are obese, because our food supply today is so

processed and lacking in the nutrition humans need, that the body just

keeps telling us to eat more. Because of genetic or trauma-induced

defects in biochemistry some people need massively more of certain

nutrients and less of others. I'm not talking about treating people

with herbs and homeopathy, (though those can be very effective as well)

but about the nutrients, the vitamins and minerals a body needs to

function with 100% physical and mental wellness. This is called

orthomolecular medicine and orthomolecular psychiatry and it uses

nutrient molecules such as Vitamin C, niacin, B6, and magnesium. Human

illness is not a deficiency of prescription medication. All prescription

drug molecules are " warped " and patented. The human body, in

all its time on earth has never had to deal with these new molecules and

they all have side-effects, and quite often there is a very high price to

pay. You cannot get anything but prescription drugs from most M.D.s. For

orthomolecular treatment a person needs to see someone trained in the

practice. Here is a directory of practitioners:

 

http://alternativementalhealth.com/directory/search.asp

Tests can be done to pinpoint the exact cause and nutritional cure.

 

If someone chooses the drug route, that is their choice - I'm not judging

that. That is typically all insurance will pay for and it's all some

people can manage. What I am judging as a huge crime against humanity is

the fact that very few people know that for decades there has been a much

more effective treatment for mental and physical illness than pharma

drugs. In 1952 and before Dr. Abram Hoffer was curing schizophrenia with

Vitamin C and niacin supplements! You can find a wonderful story about a

family affected by a genetic bipolar disorder at

http://truehope.com.

Ugh, wrong, they have new website and I can't find the story, but

basically the mother committed suicide and the father was left to care

for a huge family where two children were seriously mentally ill.

Cocktails of 3, 4 and 5 drugs with horrid side-effects could not control

the symptoms but when a friend helped the father make a supplement based

on that given to normalize ornery pigs - the children got off all meds

and lead a totally normal life. Farm animals don't have Blue Cross

insurance, so the farmers/vetrinarians have learned what nutrients to

use.

Have you ever heard there are basically 5 biochemical types of

depression, and each need a completely different treatment?

 

http://alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm#D This is

from the notes of Dr. Walsh

" After getting extensive biochemical data on more than 3,000 persons

diagnosed with clinical depression, we found that 95% of them fit neatly

into one of 5 separate biochemical classifications. Depression is not a

single condition, but an umbrella term covering several completely

different conditions. Anyway, we believe we have identified the 5 primary

phenotypes..... each with their own classic symptoms and each with

completely different treatment needs. "

Health Research Institute and Pfeiffer Treatment Center,

http://hriptc.org/, has

treated over 20,000 people " with symptoms of behavioral and learning

disorders (including ADD/ADHD), autism spectrum disorders, depression

(including postpartum depression), bipolar disorder, schizophrenia,

anxiety, post traumatic stress syndrome and Alzheimer’s

disease. "

To learn more about why the SSRI drugs are responsible for so much modern

mayhem, here is a starter link/article from Dr. Ann Blake Tracy:

 

http://www.drugawareness.org/Ribbon/SSRIMeds.html The rest is

copied from this page.

 

What you need to know about serotonin-enhancing medications

Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors do exactly that: Inhibit

the reuptake of serotonin, thus leaving excess serotonin which allows

this stimulation to continue. It has long been known that inhibiting the

reuptake of serotonin will produce depression, suicide, violence,

psychosis, mania, cravings for alcohol and other drugs, reckless driving,

etc. [see full list of reactions below]

The most popular drugs that produce this reuptake of serotonin

are:

SSRI Antidepressants: Prozac, Serafem, Zoloft, Paxil, Luvox,

Celexa, Lexapro

SNRI Antidepressants: Effexor, Remeron, Serzone, Cymbalta

Atypical Antipsychotics: Zyprexa, Geodon, Abilify, Seroquel,

Risperdal

Weight Loss Medications: Fen-Phen, Redux, Meridia

Pain Killers: (Any opium or heroin derivative) Morphine,

OxyContin, Ultram, Tramadol, Percocet, Percodan, Lortab, Demerol, Darvon

or Darvocet, Codeine, Buprenex, Dilaudid, Talwin, Stadol, Vicodin,

Duragesic Patches, Fentanyl Transdermal, Methadone, Dextromethorphan

(commonly used in cough syrups), etc.

WARNING: Anesthetics can also fall into this group as well as

drugs used for other purposes. Always check to see what the mechanism of

action is in a drug before combining it with another serotonergic agent

or using it soon after the use of a serotonergic agent because the

combination of two can cause the potentially fatal reaction known as

Serotonin Syndrome. As the main function of serotonin is constriction of

smooth muscle tissue, Serotonin Syndrome produces death via multiple

organ failure.

" Psychedelic agents mimic the effects of

serotonin. "

The brain chemical these drugs increase, serotonin, is the same brain

chemical that LSD, PCP and other psychedelic drugs mimic in order to

produce their hallucinogenic effects. And remember that psychedelic

agents are " a class of compounds with no demonstrated therapeutic

use, a history of extensive abuse, and the ability to provoke psychosis.

Yet many brain researchers value the psychedelic agents above any of the

other psychoactive drugs " because " the research into

psychedelic drugs has already enriched our understanding of how the brain

regulates behavior. " (Dr. Solomon Snyder, DRUGS AND THE BRAIN). Just

how much will these brain researchers learn from our experience with

these drugs designed to specifically increase serotonin, the same brain

chemical the psychedelic agents mimic to produce their effects?

We know that these drugs interfere with serotonin metabolism

(demonstrated by levels of the serotonin metabolite 5HIAA). It is not

serotonin that is low in these disorders, it is this by-product 5HIAA,

which indicates the level of serotonin metabolism, that is low in

depression, suicide, etc. Yet as serotonin (5HT) goes up serotonin

metabolism (5HIAA) generally comes down. We already have studies

demonstrating at what percentage each of these drugs increase 5HT and

decrease 5HIAA. Here are the results of elevated levels of serotonin

(5HT) and decreased levels of serotonin metabolism (5HIAA):

Elevated 5HT (serotonin) levels:

 

schizophrenia, psychosis, mania, etc. mood disorders (depression, anxiety, etc.) organic brain disease - especially mental retardation at a greater

incident rate in children autism (a self-centered or self-focused mental state with no basis in

reality) Alzheimer's disease old age anorexia constriction of the blood vessels blood clotting constriction of bronchials and other physical effects

Lower 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) levels:

 

suicide (especially violent suicide) arson violent crime insomnia depression alcohol abuse impulsive acts with no concern for punishment reckless driving dependence upon various substances bulimia multiple suicide attempts hostility and more contact with police exhibitionism arguments with spouses, friends and relatives obsessive compulsive behavior impaired employment due to hostility, etc.

All are exactly what patients and their families have continued to report

to be their experience on these drugs since Prozac was introduced! These

individuals are frantically searching for answers while this research

sits right under our noses. Although this is a totally different picture

than pharmaceutical marketing departments would have us believe,

marketing claims and reality rarely have much in common.

Researchers tell us that five, ten or twenty years later it is not

uncommon to find we have another thalidomide on our hands. Raising 5HT

(serotonin) and lowering 5HIAA (serotonin metabolism) in such a high

number of people can produce very serious, extensive and long term

problems for all of society. Even more frightening for the future of our

society is the rapidly rising and widely accepted practice of prescribing

these drugs to small children and adolescents. This crucial medical

research must be addressed openly, without delay, rather than remain

buried in seldom read medical research documents as has been the case in

the past with other mind-altering medications, once thought to be safe,

which were subsequently prohibited by law.

[sOURCE: PROZAC: PANACEA OR PANDORA?, BY ANN BLAKE TRACY,

PH.D.]

[end quote]

[Guest guest]

I don't want to wade thru all the rhetoric--I just

KNOW that after several experiences, I COULD TELL IN A

DAY OR TWO, when I was out of meds, that " things

weren't right " --I don't think placebos wouldv'e

helped...

 

Those times were the most miserable times in my life,

(and I'm 76).

 

----------------------

--- Karen Eck <kareneck wrote:

 

>

> >At 01:46 PM 2/26/2008, you wrote:Hmmm...and here I

> thought it was

> >just a problem in the U.S. I know what the

> report says, and

> >what people say about Prozac, but it worked for me,

> and I didn't get

> >crazy on it. Same with Effexor. Have known a number

> of other people

> >who it also worked well for. They didn't get crazy

> on it either. Or

> >after they stopped taking it. Would I have gotten

> better without it?

> >Don't know. Possibly. But, I doubt it would have

> been as

> >quickly.Something else to consider - not everyone

> who is depressed

> >can or will go to therapy. Plus, some depressions

> are caused by a

> >person being ill or disabled in some way. No doubt

> that people in

> >general take too much medication, but if we're not

> careful, some of

> >the good stuff is going to wind up disappearing as

> well as the not

> >so good stuff. Just my POV Lynn

>

> Hi Lynn,

>

> Everyone is different. There is vast array of human

> metabolic types,

> and biochemical errors that cause depression and

> even the most severe

> of mental illnesses. To understand the problem

> presented by SSRI meds

> spend some time studying the work of Dr. Ann Blake

> Tracy. Her website

> contains a ton of information

> http://www.drugawareness.org. She

> predicted this epidemic of murder/suicide decades

> ago, because when

> serotonin builds up too much in the brain it is like

> the person is on

> psychedelic drugs such as LDS and they are in a

> waking, walking

> nightmare. Often if they live through it, when they

> really wake up

> they have no idea that they just massacred someone

> or a bunch of

> people. Nearly every case of mass murder/suicide can

> be linked to use

> of SSRI drugs. Does everyone react like this? No!

> Yes, SSRI drugs do

> help some people, but there is what I consider a

> much better way ...

> and it could be far more advanced today, except the

> PharmaCartel took

> over the medical schools in the early 1900's and all

> " alternatives "

> since then have been systematically quashed. With

> the internet, the

> word is now getting out to the masses ...

> Orthomolecular Psychiatry.

>

> To find out more, study

> http://alternativementalhealth.com. Almost

> all depression and mental illness can be cured with

> the correct

> nutritional supplements. Most humans today are full

> of hundreds of

> toxic chemicals and suffer from malnutrition even if

> they are obese,

> because our food supply today is so processed and

> lacking in the

> nutrition humans need, that the body just keeps

> telling us to eat

> more. Because of genetic or trauma-induced defects

> in biochemistry

> some people need massively more of certain nutrients

> and less of

> others. I'm not talking about treating people with

> herbs and

> homeopathy, (though those can be very effective as

> well) but about

> the nutrients, the vitamins and minerals a body

> needs to function

> with 100% physical and mental wellness. This is

> called orthomolecular

> medicine and orthomolecular psychiatry and it uses

> nutrient molecules

> such as Vitamin C, niacin, B6, and magnesium. Human

> illness is not a

> deficiency of prescription medication. All

> prescription drug

> molecules are " warped " and patented. The human body,

> in all its time

> on earth has never had to deal with these new

> molecules and they all

> have side-effects, and quite often there is a very

> high price to pay.

> You cannot get anything but prescription drugs from

> most M.D.s. For

> orthomolecular treatment a person needs to see

> someone trained in the

> practice. Here is a directory of practitioners:

>

http://alternativementalhealth.com/directory/search.asp

> Tests can be done to pinpoint the exact cause and

> nutritional cure.

>

> If someone chooses the drug route, that is their

> choice - I'm not

> judging that. That is typically all insurance will

> pay for and it's

> all some people can manage. What I am judging as a

> huge crime against

> humanity is the fact that very few people know that

> for decades there

> has been a much more effective treatment for mental

> and physical

> illness than pharma drugs. In 1952 and before Dr.

> Abram Hoffer was

> curing schizophrenia with Vitamin C and niacin

> supplements! You can

> find a wonderful story about a family affected by a

> genetic bipolar

> disorder at http://truehope.com. Ugh, wrong, they

> have new website

> and I can't find the story, but basically the mother

> committed

> suicide and the father was left to care for a huge

> family where two

> children were seriously mentally ill. Cocktails of

> 3, 4 and 5 drugs

> with horrid side-effects could not control the

> symptoms but when a

> friend helped the father make a supplement based on

> that given to

> normalize ornery pigs - the children got off all

> meds and lead a

> totally normal life. Farm animals don't have Blue

> Cross insurance, so

> the farmers/vetrinarians have learned what nutrients

> to use.

>

> Have you ever heard there are basically 5

> biochemical types of

> depression, and each need a completely different

> treatment?

>

http://alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walsh.htm#D

> This is from

> the notes of Dr. Walsh

> " After getting extensive biochemical data on more

> than 3,000 persons

> diagnosed with clinical depression, we found that

> 95% of them fit

> neatly into one of 5 separate biochemical

> classifications. Depression

> is not a single condition, but an umbrella term

> covering several

> completely different conditions. Anyway, we believe

> we have

> identified the 5 primary phenotypes..... each with

> their own classic

> symptoms and each with completely different

> treatment needs. "

>

> Health Research Institute and Pfeiffer Treatment

> Center,

> http://hriptc.org/, has treated over 20,000 people

> " with symptoms of

> behavioral and learning disorders (including

> ADD/ADHD), autism

> spectrum disorders, depression (including postpartum

> depression),

> bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, anxiety, post

> traumatic stress

> syndrome and Alzheimer's disease. "

>

> To learn more about why the SSRI drugs are

> responsible for so much

> modern mayhem, here is a starter link/article from

> Dr. Ann Blake Tracy:

> http://www.drugawareness.org/Ribbon/SSRIMeds.html

> The rest is copied

> from this page.

>

>

> What you need to know about serotonin-enhancing

> medications

>

> Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors do exactly

> that: Inhibit the

> reuptake of serotonin, thus leaving excess serotonin

> which allows

> this stimulation to continue. It has long been known

> that inhibiting

> the reuptake of serotonin will produce depression,

> suicide, violence,

> psychosis, mania, cravings for alcohol and other

> drugs, reckless

> driving, etc. [see full list of reactions below]

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

At 08:23 PM 2/26/2008, you wrote:

My point exactly! Wouldn't want to go through some of that again

either...........And, good for you that at 76 you're messin' around with

the computer. I get so tired of people saying (in their 50's), that

they're too old and/or set in their ways to learn how to do the

computer.

Lynn

I don't want to wade thru all

the rhetoric--I just

KNOW that after several experiences, I COULD TELL IN A

DAY OR TWO, when I was out of meds, that " things

weren't right " --I don't think placebos wouldv'e

helped...

Those times were the most miserable times in my life,

(and I'm 76).