Bird Flu

[Guest guest]

, " wendy_watson24thmay "

<wendy@a...> wrote:

>

> Bird flu seems to have made its way to Turkey with the death of 2

> Turkish teenagers.

 

We (that is my husband and I) have been following the H5N1 virus for a

long time. Anyone who is interested in learning the truth about this

virus and much more would benefit from going to the following site. It

is amazing, as usual, what they do not tell you.

 

www.promedmail.org

 

Barbara

[Guest guest]

Hi Butch,

 

Good to hear from you on this subject. I hope you and yours stay

safe during this scary time.

 

I live 5 miles from a wildfowl sanctuary which is a little worrying.

 

I'm not one to panic unnecessarily, but I've given the subject some

thought and made some preparation should the worst happen. It was

good to read what you were doing. Where do you get your candles? Do

you have any other ideas that you could share with us Europeans?

 

Wendy

 

 

, Butch Owen <butchbsi@s...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Barbara,

>

> >>Bird flu seems to have made its way to Turkey with the death of 2

> >>Turkish teenagers.

>

> Three deaths confirmed and 1 officially unconfirmed but certain.

And

> there are a number of folks hospitalized that probably have the

disease.

>

> The below link indicates that the cases are in Eastern Turkey but

there

> is also a case in Bursa, in Western Turkey .. not far from the

Aegean.

>

> > We (that is my husband and I) have been following the H5N1 virus

for a

> > long time. Anyone who is interested in learning the truth about

this

> > virus and much more would benefit from going to the following

site. It

> > is amazing, as usual, what they do not tell you.

> >

> > www.promedmail.org

> >

> > Barbara

>

> What they don't tell us is about as much as they didn't tell us

about

> anthrax and some other weapons that are loose and unaccounted for

today.

> This is similar to the knowledge they have about how easy it is for

any

> terrorist organization to create havoc with a small scale weapon of

mass

> destruction .. be it chemical, biological or radiological.

Governments

> want to avoid having citizens panic.

>

> Those who have worked in this area understand the realities and

though

> we're not prone to panic .. we exercise as much caution as possible

> based on potential threats and are skeptical about the information

we

> read in the media.

>

> The information in the link above is good information but the World

> Health Organization runs behind the power curve in reporting because

> they are reluctant to report local government testing .. they want

> independent confirmation. That takes time so we're normally

looking at

> last weeks football scores.

>

> As can be gleaned from the link you presented .. a problem in

developing

> and emerging market countries is ignorance and people's lack of

trust in

> their governments .. they are used to censored reports even when

there

> is little reason to hide the truth .. but often there is reason ..

like

> governments are afraid to lose revenue from tourism. The reaction

of

> the mayor in the movie " Jaws " has been repeated many times in the

USA.

>

> Many peasants here depend on selling 30-40 or so turkeys at the

market

> for $665-$885 and this might be half of the cash they acquire in a

year

> because they are used to subsistence farming and barter for the

goods

> they don't produce themselves. When a government offers to pay them

> half that amount to destroy their birds some might hide the birds

and

> they are eager to accept tales put out by larger farmers claiming

the

> danger is propaganda being spread to increase sales of lamb, etc.

>

> The Turkish Minister of Health says its not a big problem now .. but

> some of the Dr. Professor types say its potentially a big problem.

>

> Two days from now begins the Feast of Sacrifice .. Kurban Bayram ..

a

> time when families who can afford it purchase an animal, slaughter

it

> and give the meat to the poor. Birds are not appropriate

sacrifices so

> that will help somewhat, but the less affluent will eat poultry

during

> this period and many of them will kill and pluck the birds

themselves ..

> all will handle the birds even if they come from a butcher shop.

>

> We're not touching poultry now .. matters not that they say cooking

it

> well makes it safe. We're not using our kitchen balcony as an extra

> refrigerator now .. that's common here in winter for storing items

> like potatoes, onions, oranges, cabbages, beer, wine and such.

Reason

> is they have also detected the virus in pigeons and Ankara has a

pigeon

> problem .. I'm not taking any chances.

>

> We're eating fish or beef and lots of vegetable borscht .. lots of

raw

> garlic and onions and spicing foods with rosemary and oregano.

We're

> not eating out now because we can't be sure some cook didn't touch a

> prepared food with hands that had previously touched poultry.

>

> We're burning Oregano and Rosemary/Rosewood candles in the house and

> diffusing and sniffing Oregano Essential Oil.

>

> Am I too careful? Maybe. Am I sure the preventive measures I'm

taking

> will be effective? No. But there are no other options so I'll not

> change my modus operandi.

>

> Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

>

> Wholesale/Retail GC Tested EO, Tested Hydrosols, Rose Products,

shipped

> from our store in downtown Friendsville, Maryland. Pop: 597

>

[Guest guest]

On Behalf Of Butch Owen

Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:49 PM

Bird Flu

 

Hi Butch, I've been thinking of you, too, and am glad you've taken the time

to post.

 

......<snipped> the less affluent will eat poultry during

this period and many of them will kill and pluck the birds

themselves ..

all will handle the birds even if they come from a butcher shop.

 

How sad, Butch. Are there any plans in place to educate those most at risk

in an attempt to alleviate sickness/potential death?

 

We're not touching poultry now .. matters not that they say cooking

it

well makes it safe. We're not using our kitchen balcony as an extra

refrigerator now .. that's common here in winter for storing items

like potatoes, onions, oranges, cabbages, beer, wine and such.

Reason

is they have also detected the virus in pigeons and Ankara has a

pigeon

problem .. I'm not taking any chances.

 

We're eating fish or beef and lots of vegetable borscht .. lots of

raw

garlic and onions and spicing foods with rosemary and oregano.

We're

not eating out now because we can't be sure some cook didn't touch a

prepared food with hands that had previously touched poultry.

 

We're burning Oregano and Rosemary/Rosewood candles in the house and

diffusing and sniffing Oregano Essential Oil.

 

Am I too careful? Maybe. Am I sure the preventive measures I'm

taking

will be effective? No. But there are no other options so I'll not

change my modus operandi.

 

Smart, but then we expect that of you. :-) Good suggestions for anyone. A

friend's son (now living in his first apartment), who isn't the brightest

bulb in the string, took chicken out of the freezer, placed it on the top

shelf of his fridge, then proceeded to eat everything below after it had

thawed and dripped . . . Bread, lunchmeat . . . And, of course, ended up in

the hospital sicker than a dog with a variety of serious bacterial

infections. So, this advice is just good common sense for all of us. The

little critters are getting smarter, more resilient and in the end, they

just might win if we don't outsmart 'em. Nice to have our Germ General

posting on the list.

 

Thanks for this, and you stay well!!

 

 

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

[Guest guest]

Hi Butch - just want you to know that my thoughts and

prayers are with you and your family. And I am so

gratful for my stock of oregano oil from you!

 

Blessings,

Doreen

 

 

 

________

DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.

[Guest guest]

This is a link to an article in the current New Life Magazine(the ones found

free in health food stores).

Title: The Great Bird Flu Epidemic is Strictly for the Birds

A criticism of the " Bird Flu Vaccination Hoax " .

http://www.newlifemag.com/media/NewLife-Jan-Feb06%20pg6-26.pdf

 

Make of it what you will.

 

ann

 

 

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and have been watching and

reading other posts for a while now. I have done a lot of research

on H5N1, mostly from a western medical perspective. I would like

discussion from you all from a perspective on

pathogen differentiation and treatment stratigies. I have talked to

a lot of other practitioners and I get the sense that no one really

has a firm handle on this. Some say it's a Wind Cold, some say it's

a hot pestilential evil. From what I've gathered, it starts as a WC

and quickly moves to the blood level. It seems signs and symptoms

often first manifest at a Yang Ming stage. I have been studying

Dr.Shubiti Darmanandas site and downloaded his paper on " Chinese

Medicines Response to Avian Influenza " . I found this helpful. I am

most concerned with the Cytokine cascade that causes massive

inflamation, internal hemmorage ARDS and respiratory failure. Onset

of S & S to death, in many cases is less than a week.

Recent genetic alteration in the H5N1 hemagglutinin gene have

occured that would lead to more efficient transmission of H5N1 to

humans. This genetic change was linked to H5N1 from migrating birds

flying into the Middle East and infecting birds indigenous to the

region already carrying another avian influenza sero-type, H9N2.On

January 19th, the scientific journal, Nature, summarized this

development and described ongoing research at the National Institute

of Medical Research (NIMR), in London, that identified the genetic

alteration, S227N (also called S223N)In late December 2005, the

first human infections by the Qinghai strain of H5N1 were reported

in Turkey. S227N was detected in the index case for that outbreak

with six additional cases confirmed four of whom died. " H5N1 is

migrating into areas where it is encountering unique influenza sero-

types it has not encountered while largely confined to Asia over the

past few years. This expanded geographical reach allows H5N1 to

exchange genetic material with novel donor sequences, which under

the appropriate selection pressures, enables the genetic changes to

become fixed in the genome of the virus. H5N1 is in the process of

acquiring genetic information that allows for more efficient

infections of humans " , said Recombinomics President, Dr. Henry Niman.

So how does CHM deal with this? Thanks for your time and thoughts.

 

----------

 

 

 

Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/265 - Release 2/20/06

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Ann:

 

I looked over the article you recommended. I feel a better read would be a

book called " The Great Influenza, " by John Barry.

 

In the first place, from what we have all read on this forum, if there were

a pandemic like there was in 1918, the TCM community would not in its present

form be in any shape to combat it. The book does an excellent job, however,

of describing just how Johns Hopkins was able to begin a major transformation

of WM so that by the end of the epidemic, they were in relatively complete

control of the field.

 

The article you recommended shows a naive lack of understanding of the

nature of viral mutation into forms that can easily move from human to human. I

refer to the author's statement about the relative rarity of " bird flu in Asia, "

and the way he tries to point out that 120 or so cases mean almost nothing.

 

Barry's book traces the epidemic from patient zero in the midwest across

America and then the world. It only takes one person to spread the H5N1 virus to

the rest of us if conditions are right. And given the greater centralization

of the population now than in 1918, the spread would be breathtaking (no pun)

 

As TCM practitioners explore whether or not TCM is a good choice for

treatment if confronted with such a pandemic, the question of herbal efficacy in

the

face of the cytokine cascade is the most important. This chain of reactions

made the 1918 viral attack so deadly, with death ensuing even hours after the

first symptoms appeared.

 

The question for us is, do we have any herbs in our arsenal that would stop

such a cascade and could we as practitioners determine when to use such a

formula without lab tests?

 

Guy Porter

 

Also, as In a message dated 2/20/2006 9:09:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,

snakeoil.works writes:

 

This is a link to an article in the current New Life Magazine(the ones found

free in health food stores).

Title: The Great Bird Flu Epidemic is Strictly for the Birds

A criticism of the " Bird Flu Vaccination Hoax " .

http://www.newlifemag.com/media/NewLife-Jan-Feb06%20pg6-26.pdf

 

Make of it what you will.

 

ann

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

.....right. Unfortunately the hoax theory dosen't hold water. There

is no vaccine, and as I mentioned in my orrigional post, WM drugs

have failed. How do the big drug companies make millions on drugs

that dont work? If anyone is making money on this it's the

alturnative community. Herbal formulas are flying off the shelves.

Ever hear of Sambucol, Curcumin, or Cold Snap? Wow, if the hoax

theory is true, the Centers for disease control, The World Health

Organization, Dr. Webster (the one who discovered and warned the

medical community about H5N1 over 20 years ago,) Dr. Henry Niman, Dr

Noboru, etc... as well as all the dead birds and people must be in

on it. Quite the scam indeed. It is pamphlets and a mind set like

this that gives alternative medicine community the " Quack "

reputation. Anyone interested in serious discussion? Anyone?

 

 

, <snakeoil.works

wrote:

>

> This is a link to an article in the current New Life Magazine(the

ones found free in health food stores).

> Title: The Great Bird Flu Epidemic is Strictly for the Birds

> A criticism of the " Bird Flu Vaccination Hoax " .

> http://www.newlifemag.com/media/NewLife-Jan-Feb06%20pg6-26.pdf

>

> Make of it what you will.

>

> ann

>

>

> Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and have been watching and

> reading other posts for a while now. I have done a lot of

research

> on H5N1, mostly from a western medical perspective. I would

like

> discussion from you all from a perspective on

> pathogen differentiation and treatment stratigies. I have talked

to

> a lot of other practitioners and I get the sense that no one

really

> has a firm handle on this. Some say it's a Wind Cold, some say

it's

> a hot pestilential evil. From what I've gathered, it starts as a

WC

> and quickly moves to the blood level. It seems signs and

symptoms

> often first manifest at a Yang Ming stage. I have been studying

> Dr.Shubiti Darmanandas site and downloaded his paper on " Chinese

> Medicines Response to Avian Influenza " . I found this helpful. I

am

> most concerned with the Cytokine cascade that causes massive

> inflamation, internal hemmorage ARDS and respiratory failure.

Onset

> of S & S to death, in many cases is less than a week.

> Recent genetic alteration in the H5N1 hemagglutinin gene have

> occured that would lead to more efficient transmission of H5N1

to

> humans. This genetic change was linked to H5N1 from migrating

birds

> flying into the Middle East and infecting birds indigenous to

the

> region already carrying another avian influenza sero-type,

H9N2.On

> January 19th, the scientific journal, Nature, summarized this

> development and described ongoing research at the National

Institute

> of Medical Research (NIMR), in London, that identified the

genetic

> alteration, S227N (also called S223N)In late December 2005, the

> first human infections by the Qinghai strain of H5N1 were

reported

> in Turkey. S227N was detected in the index case for that

outbreak

> with six additional cases confirmed four of whom died. " H5N1 is

> migrating into areas where it is encountering unique influenza

sero-

> types it has not encountered while largely confined to Asia over

the

> past few years. This expanded geographical reach allows H5N1 to

> exchange genetic material with novel donor sequences, which

under

> the appropriate selection pressures, enables the genetic changes

to

> become fixed in the genome of the virus. H5N1 is in the process

of

> acquiring genetic information that allows for more efficient

> infections of humans " , said Recombinomics President, Dr. Henry

Niman.

> So how does CHM deal with this? Thanks for your time and

thoughts.

>

> ----------

>

>

>

> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/265 - Release Date:

2/20/06

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Porter,

 

I agree with you. I didn't mean to reccomend the article, in fact I

found it to be rather naive myself. I only ment to say that I felt

better that SOMEONE from the TCM community had looked at BF and put

SOMETHING together. This is the only thing I have found to date and

was most dissapointed. I've read " The Great Influenza " among others

and feel that it is a good primer but in no way grasps the magnitude

of what the current H5N1 strain, should it go H2H, could do, as far

as the speed of spread and number of fatalities.

As far as TCM treating BF, you are right. We have no experience

with anything like this or with anything like a cytokine cascade.

I'm not even sure I would recognize it. Any ideas? But that's the

key. Knowing how to catch it and prevent it.

What herbs do we have that treat that kind of blood heat,inflamation

and hemmorage? (I know, I'll look them up! ) I've been reading the

posts on difficulties in treating the regular seasonal flu and while

this years strain is particularly virulent, it pales in compairson

to how BF manifests and how quickly it kills. If I wern't studying

for midterms I would make an attempt at a formula for a hypothetical

H5N1 case presentation. Four stages maybe. Initial onset S & S, =

wind cold / wind heat, thats obvious, then Yang Ming stage and LU

S & S (Cytokine cascade?) and two scenarios, recovery and lastly, end

stage, ARDS. I wish I had more time. I'll check back tomorrow after

exams! Many thanks for responding! Ann.

, DrGRPorter wrote:

>

>

> Dear Ann:

>

> I looked over the article you recommended. I feel a better read

would be a

> book called " The Great Influenza, " by John Barry.

>

> In the first place, from what we have all read on this forum, if

there were

> a pandemic like there was in 1918, the TCM community would not in

its present

> form be in any shape to combat it. The book does an excellent job,

however,

> of describing just how Johns Hopkins was able to begin a major

transformation

> of WM so that by the end of the epidemic, they were in relatively

complete

> control of the field.

>

> The article you recommended shows a naive lack of understanding of

the

> nature of viral mutation into forms that can easily move from

human to human. I

> refer to the author's statement about the relative rarity of " bird

flu in Asia, "

> and the way he tries to point out that 120 or so cases mean

almost nothing.

>

> Barry's book traces the epidemic from patient zero in the midwest

across

> America and then the world. It only takes one person to spread the

H5N1 virus to

> the rest of us if conditions are right. And given the greater

centralization

> of the population now than in 1918, the spread would be

breathtaking (no pun)

>

> As TCM practitioners explore whether or not TCM is a good choice

for

> treatment if confronted with such a pandemic, the question of

herbal efficacy in the

> face of the cytokine cascade is the most important. This chain of

reactions

> made the 1918 viral attack so deadly, with death ensuing even

hours after the

> first symptoms appeared.

>

> The question for us is, do we have any herbs in our arsenal that

would stop

> such a cascade and could we as practitioners determine when to use

such a

> formula without lab tests?

>

> Guy Porter

>

> Also, as In a message dated 2/20/2006 9:09:03 P.M. Central

Standard Time,

> snakeoil.works writes:

>

> This is a link to an article in the current New Life Magazine(the

ones found

> free in health food stores).

> Title: The Great Bird Flu Epidemic is Strictly for the Birds

> A criticism of the " Bird Flu Vaccination Hoax " .

> http://www.newlifemag.com/media/NewLife-Jan-Feb06%20pg6-26.pdf

>

> Make of it what you will.

>

> ann

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with most of what you've said here. I posted the article as an example

of what is circulating in the natch health community, such as it is. Thank you

for stomping on it.

 

On the other hand....I don't get your perhaps rhetorical question, " How to the

big drug companies make millions on drugs that don't work? " Don't get me

started. Well, how about addiction for a start?

 

ann

 

 

 

stressinstudent

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:55 AM

Re: Bird Flu

 

 

....right. Unfortunately the hoax theory dosen't hold water. There

is no vaccine, and as I mentioned in my orrigional post, WM drugs

have failed. How do the big drug companies make millions on drugs

that dont work? If anyone is making money on this it's the

alturnative community. Herbal formulas are flying off the shelves.

Ever hear of Sambucol, Curcumin, or Cold Snap? Wow, if the hoax

theory is true, the Centers for disease control, The World Health

Organization, Dr. Webster (the one who discovered and warned the

medical community about H5N1 over 20 years ago,) Dr. Henry Niman, Dr

Noboru, etc... as well as all the dead birds and people must be in

on it. Quite the scam indeed. It is pamphlets and a mind set like

this that gives alternative medicine community the " Quack "

reputation. Anyone interested in serious discussion? Anyone?

 

 

, <snakeoil.works

wrote:

>

> This is a link to an article in the current New Life Magazine(the

ones found free in health food stores).

> Title: The Great Bird Flu Epidemic is Strictly for the Birds

> A criticism of the " Bird Flu Vaccination Hoax " .

> http://www.newlifemag.com/media/NewLife-Jan-Feb06%20pg6-26.pdf

>

> Make of it what you will.

>

> ann

>

>

> Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and have been watching and

> reading other posts for a while now. I have done a lot of

research

> on H5N1, mostly from a western medical perspective. I would

like

> discussion from you all from a perspective on

> pathogen differentiation and treatment stratigies. I have talked

to

> a lot of other practitioners and I get the sense that no one

really

> has a firm handle on this. Some say it's a Wind Cold, some say

it's

> a hot pestilential evil. From what I've gathered, it starts as a

WC

> and quickly moves to the blood level. It seems signs and

symptoms

> often first manifest at a Yang Ming stage. I have been studying

> Dr.Shubiti Darmanandas site and downloaded his paper on " Chinese

> Medicines Response to Avian Influenza " . I found this helpful. I

am

> most concerned with the Cytokine cascade that causes massive

> inflamation, internal hemmorage ARDS and respiratory failure.

Onset

> of S & S to death, in many cases is less than a week.

> Recent genetic alteration in the H5N1 hemagglutinin gene have

> occured that would lead to more efficient transmission of H5N1

to

> humans. This genetic change was linked to H5N1 from migrating

birds

> flying into the Middle East and infecting birds indigenous to

the

> region already carrying another avian influenza sero-type,

H9N2.On

> January 19th, the scientific journal, Nature, summarized this

> development and described ongoing research at the National

Institute

> of Medical Research (NIMR), in London, that identified the

genetic

> alteration, S227N (also called S223N)In late December 2005, the

> first human infections by the Qinghai strain of H5N1 were

reported

> in Turkey. S227N was detected in the index case for that

outbreak

> with six additional cases confirmed four of whom died. " H5N1 is

> migrating into areas where it is encountering unique influenza

sero-

> types it has not encountered while largely confined to Asia over

the

> past few years. This expanded geographical reach allows H5N1 to

> exchange genetic material with novel donor sequences, which

under

> the appropriate selection pressures, enables the genetic changes

to

> become fixed in the genome of the virus. H5N1 is in the process

of

> acquiring genetic information that allows for more efficient

> infections of humans " , said Recombinomics President, Dr. Henry

Niman.

> So how does CHM deal with this? Thanks for your time and

thoughts.

>

> ----------

>

----------

 

 

 

Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.0.0/266 - Release 2/21/06

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

As i just said in previous post, I posted the article as an example of what's

put out there in so-called alt health rags. Perhaps you could respond to the

editor. This debate will go on, probably based on the idea that so far there

aren't human-to-human transmissions, therefore, what's new about this year? Or

are there human-to-human cases I've missed? Or stats that I don't get. Every

year birds get sick and die. And ppl die of flus, pneumonias, etc. that

incubated and morphed in those dang birds that meat-eaters insist on. :-( **

Mind you, I'm not saying the warning is merely a matter of hype or hysteria. The

chance of a mega epidemic is always there, mutation, airplanes, as you've said.

All this has been testified to by Laurie Garrett, as well. The silver lining of

any " hysteria " would be an increased attention to the horrid state of public

health. But I fear what it will mean is increased profiteering and hyping of

bogus vaccines and tamiflu, such as ppl are already trying to stock in. It would

be good to be ready. But how to argue a hypothetical? Catalogue the symptoms in

those already infected. Then devise a plan. But with a fast progression, what

kind of time do we realistically have to alert the media if such a plague

strikes, presuming we think we already have a clue? Cordyceps? There's a

marketing idea. Don't vaccinate. Get the worm.

 

ann

 

**for the record, I'm no vegetarian.

 

 

 

 

Dear Ann:

 

I looked over the article you recommended. I feel a better read would be a

book called " The Great Influenza, " by John Barry.

 

In the first place, from what we have all read on this forum, if there were

a pandemic like there was in 1918, the TCM community would not in its present

form be in any shape to combat it. The book does an excellent job, however,

of describing just how Johns Hopkins was able to begin a major transformation

of WM so that by the end of the epidemic, they were in relatively complete

control of the field.

 

The article you recommended shows a naive lack of understanding of the

nature of viral mutation into forms that can easily move from human to human.

I

refer to the author's statement about the relative rarity of " bird flu in

Asia, "

and the way he tries to point out that 120 or so cases mean almost nothing.

 

Barry's book traces the epidemic from patient zero in the midwest across

America and then the world. It only takes one person to spread the H5N1 virus

to

the rest of us if conditions are right. And given the greater centralization

of the population now than in 1918, the spread would be breathtaking (no pun)

 

As TCM practitioners explore whether or not TCM is a good choice for

treatment if confronted with such a pandemic, the question of herbal efficacy

in the

face of the cytokine cascade is the most important. This chain of reactions

made the 1918 viral attack so deadly, with death ensuing even hours after the

first symptoms appeared.

 

The question for us is, do we have any herbs in our arsenal that would stop

such a cascade and could we as practitioners determine when to use such a

formula without lab tests?

 

Guy Porter

 

Also, as In a message dated 2/20/2006 9:09:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,

snakeoil.works writes:

 

This is a link to an article in the current New Life Magazine(the ones found

free in health food stores).

Title: The Great Bird Flu Epidemic is Strictly for the Birds

A criticism of the " Bird Flu Vaccination Hoax " .

http://www.newlifemag.com/media/NewLife-Jan-Feb06%20pg6-26.pdf

 

Make of it what you will.

 

ann

 

 

 

 

 

 

----------

 

 

 

Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.0.0/266 - Release 2/21/06

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ann,

 

The first human-to-human transmission was identified in Turkey last Friday.

It was in the news.

 

 

snakeoil.works wrote:

This debate will go on, probably based on the idea that so far there aren't

human-to-human transmissions, therefore, what's new about this year? Or are

there human-to-human cases I've missed?

ann

 

 

 

 

 

What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think that the WM response to a pandemic may leave much to be

desired, as alot of the changes in WM since the last great pandemic of

1918 are actually detrimental to the containment of such an outbreak.

Radical developments in the speed of travel aside, most hospitals no

longer have infectious diseases wards where patients can be isolated,

and the development of antibiotics has led to most hospitals becoming

heavily reliable on disinfectants etc to the detriment of basic

hygiene. (For example, staff at major hospitals admitting that the

sheets arent always changed between patients, I mean, you dont get much

more fundamental than that.)

So lets just hope that if there is going to be a pandemic then the

radical developments that science is capable of these days may be the

saving grace. And then theres always those nice people in India and

China who are happy to break patent to produce tamiflu.

[Guest guest]

Andrea,

Thanks for the reply, I didn't catch that. Where did you read that?

From what source? , Andrea

Beth Damsky < wrote:

>

> Ann,

>

> The first human-to-human transmission was identified in Turkey

last Friday. It was in the news.

>

>

>

> snakeoil.works wrote:

> This debate will go on, probably based on the idea that so far

there aren't human-to-human transmissions, therefore, what's new

about this year? Or are there human-to-human cases I've missed?

> ann

>

>

>

>

>

> What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ann,

 

I heard it twice; I saw it on the news last week (Monday,I think), and I don't

remember the other

source, the Friday previous. I'm surprised we haven't been hearing more about

it, considering all

the media scare about this, this year.

 

Andrea Beth

 

--- stressinstudent <annesloft wrote:

 

> Andrea,

> Thanks for the reply, I didn't catch that. Where did you read that?

> From what source? , Andrea

> Beth Damsky < wrote:

> >

> > Ann,

> >

> > The first human-to-human transmission was identified in Turkey

> last Friday. It was in the news.

> >

> >

> >

> > snakeoil.works wrote:

> > This debate will go on, probably based on the idea that so far

> there aren't human-to-human transmissions, therefore, what's new

> about this year? Or are there human-to-human cases I've missed?

> > ann

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > What are the most popular cars? Find out at Autos

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Yandy,

 

I've done extensive research on H5N1 and have boat loads of info,

but all from a western med. perspective. I'm currently a TCM

student, and would LOVE help in putting this together from a TCM

view. I'm happy to share with you or others who are interested. I

have current S & S, clinical manifestations and variations, poss

herbal treatments, web sites, genetics, recombinations, I've been a

little obsessed! I'm glad to see there is growing interest. Let me

know, I'm more than happy to contribute.

 

Chinese Medicine , " yandy "

<yandy wrote:

>

> Hi All,

> I posted a message regarding herbal treatment for bird flu some

weeks ago. Could anyone help me analyze the formula that being use

below. Why herbs that correct shao yang disorder is being used (chai

hu and huang qin), but the differentiation syndrome is " toxic evil

assail the lung " ?

> Does the overall approach in treating bird flu is based on wen

bing (warm disease) or wen yi (scource epidemic)? Why the

term " toxic evil " being used instead of " warm evil " ? Many thanks in

advance.

>

> 1. Toxic evil assail the lung (du xie fan fei)

> - Main symptoms : fever, chill, sore pharynx, headache, muscle and

joint soreness, cough, scanty phlegm, white tongue fur, floating

slippery rapid pulse

> - Pathomechanisms : Toxic evil assail Lung-defense, causing Lung-

defense brewing (in), impaired diffusion and downbearing of the lung

> - Method of treatment : clear heat and resolve toxin, diffuse the

lung, outthurst evil.

> chai hu (Radix Bupleuri) 10g

> huang qin (Radix Scutellariae) 12g

> zhi ma huang (honey-fried Herba Ephedrae) 6g

> chao xing ren (stir-fry Semen Armeniacae Amarum) 10g

> yin hua (Flos Lonicerae) 10g

> lian qiao (Fructus Forsythiae) 15g

> niu bang zi (Fructus Arctii) 15g

> qiang huo (Rhizoma et Radix Notopterygii) 10g

> mao lu gen (Rhizoma Imperatae) 15g

> sheng gan cao (Radix Glycyrrhizae) 6g

>

> Best regards,

> Yandy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As you indicated, you are basically treating toxic

evil that has invaded the lungs with the presented

symptoms. If you look at the herbs in the formula, the

majority of them is for treating toxins, especially

relating to heat (Jin Yin Hua, Lian Qiao, etc.) In

addition, the lungs are also being treated, hence you

are finding herbs like Ma Huang, Xing Ren, etc. Lu Gen

is likely included because of its strength in

resolving lung-related issues, espeicially relating to

heat in the lungs. Meantime, herbs like Lian Qial are

also used to dissolve any kind of nodules which very

likely would accompany toxic heat conditions.

 

Xing Ren is indicated as fried versus raw to reduce

its natural toxicity. Here it is very important for

this as the discussed condition is toxic-centric, and

so the last thing you need to do is add any more

toxicity... hence the Xing Ren is pre-prepared.

 

Gan Cao when used in its raw form is especially good

for treating toxic disorders... hence Sheng Gan Cao,

versus raw, which is typically used for harmonizing

other herbs and reducing herb toxicity in formulas.

 

The symptoms also indicate irritation of the throat

manifesting in soreness, and is due to heat. Niu Bang

Zi is well known for its strength in treating sore

thorats (especially of the heat type), and this is

probably the reason why it is used here.

 

The toxicity in bird flu is likely to present with

indications of excess Liver pathology, like Liver fire

and Liver Yang rising. These, over time will cause Qi

stagnation, and with addition of more fire, will

likely generate toxic heat. Chai Hu is likely used to

counter this because of its strength in treating liver

qi constraint with underlying heat pathology (Chai Hu

being bitter and cool)

 

Last but not least, the symptoms presented are febrile

and excess heat based, and in these cases, treating

the Yang is a common approach. Hence, the

" Yang-focused " nature of this formula.

 

My two cents.

 

Rene

 

--- yandy <yandy wrote:

 

> Hi All,

> I posted a message regarding herbal treatment for

> bird flu some weeks ago. Could anyone help me

> analyze the formula that being use below. Why herbs

> that correct shao yang disorder is being used (chai

> hu and huang qin), but the differentiation syndrome

> is " toxic evil assail the lung " ?

> Does the overall approach in treating bird flu is

> based on wen bing (warm disease) or wen yi (scource

> epidemic)? Why the term " toxic evil " being used

> instead of " warm evil " ? Many thanks in advance.

>

> 1. Toxic evil assail the lung (du xie fan fei)

> - Main symptoms : fever, chill, sore pharynx,

> headache, muscle and joint soreness, cough, scanty

> phlegm, white tongue fur, floating slippery rapid

> pulse

> - Pathomechanisms : Toxic evil assail Lung-defense,

> causing Lung-defense brewing (in), impaired

> diffusion and downbearing of the lung

> - Method of treatment : clear heat and resolve

> toxin, diffuse the lung, outthurst evil.

> chai hu (Radix Bupleuri) 10g

> huang qin (Radix Scutellariae) 12g

> zhi ma huang (honey-fried Herba Ephedrae) 6g

> chao xing ren (stir-fry Semen Armeniacae Amarum) 10g

> yin hua (Flos Lonicerae) 10g

> lian qiao (Fructus Forsythiae) 15g

> niu bang zi (Fructus Arctii) 15g

> qiang huo (Rhizoma et Radix Notopterygii) 10g

> mao lu gen (Rhizoma Imperatae) 15g

> sheng gan cao (Radix Glycyrrhizae) 6g

>

> Best regards,

> Yandy

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Rene,

Thanks a lot. I really like your analysis.

It would be great if I could get your analysis on other pattern identification.

I am looking forward for it. Here is the other patterns.

 

2. Toxic assail the Lung and Stomach (du fan fei wei)

- Main symptoms : fever or chill, headache, muscle and joint soreness, nausea,

vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, slimy tongue fur, floating slippery pulse.

- Pathomechanisms : Toxic evil assail the Lung and Stomach, internal brewing of

damp turbidity, impaired harmonizing and

downbearing of the Stomach Intestine

- Method of treatment : clear heat and resolve toxin, dispel dampness, harmonize

the Stomach

Prescription :

ge gen (Radix Puerariae) 20g

huang qin (Radix Scutellariae) 10g

huang lian (Rhizoma Coptidis) 6g

yu xing cao (Herba Houttuyniae) 30g

cang zhu (Rhizoma Atractylodis) 10g

ru xiang (Gummi Olibanu) 10g

jiang ban xia (ginger-processed Rhizoma Pinelliae) 10g

hou po (Cortex Magnoliae Officinalis) 6g

lian qiao (Fructus Forsythiae) 15g

bai zhi (Radix Angelicae Dahuricae) 10g

bai mao gen (Rhizoma Imperatae) 20g

 

3. Toxic evil congesting the Lung (du xie yong fei)

- Main symptoms : high fever, cough with scanty phlegm, oppression in the chest;

suffocation, shortness of breath, hasty panting, or palpitation, agitation,

disquieted, in severe case clouded spirit and dilirious speech, dark purple

lips, dark red tongue, slimy yellow fur or slimy gray fur.

- Pathomechanisms : in severe pathocondition toxic evil congesting the Lung,

impaired diffusion and downbearing of the lung, hence high fever, cough,

phlegm-stasis obstructing the Lung, dark purple lips, shortness of breath, hasty

panting.

- Method of treatment : Clear heat, drain the Lung, resolve toxin, transform

stasis.

 

Prescription :

zhi ma huang (Radix Glycyrrhizae Preparata) 9g

sheng shi gao (Gypsum Fibrosum) 30g (predecoction)

chao xing ren (stir-fry Semen Armeniacae Amarum) 10g

huang qin (Radix Scutellariae) 10g

zhi mu (Radix Anemarrhenae) 10g

zhe bei mu (Bulbus Fritillariae Thunbergii) 10g

ting li zi (Semen Descurainiae seu Lepidii) 15g

sang bai pi (Cortex Mori) 15g

pu gong hing (Herba Taraxaci) 15g

cao he che (Rhizoma paridis) 10g

chi shao (Radix Paeoniae Rubrae) 10g

dan pi (Cortex Moutan) 10g

 

4. Internal block outward desertion (nei bi wai tuo)

- Main symptoms : high fever or low fever, cough, suffocation, hasty panting,

lack of warmth in the extremities or cold limbs, cold sweating, dark purple lips

and nails, sunken fine pulse or faint pulse verging on expiry.

- Pathomechanisms : Toxic evil falling inward, qi desertion, yang disertion,

exhaution of yin.

- Method of treatment : Support the right, stem desertion

Prescription :

sheng sai shen (fresh sun-dried radix ginseng) 15g

mai dong (Radix Ophiopogonis) 15g

wu wei zi (Fructus Schisandrae Chinensis) 10g

bao fu zi (roasted Radix Aconiti Lateralis Praeparata) 10g (predecoction)

gan jiang (Rhizoma Zingiberis) 10g

shan zhu yu (Fructus Corni) 30g

zhi gan cao (Radix Glycyrrhizae Preparata) 6g

 

 

> Message 19

> " Rene Ng " sdngr

> Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:08am(PDT)

> Re: Bird flu

 

> As you indicated, you are basically treating toxic

> evil that has invaded the lungs with the presented

> symptoms. If you look at the herbs in the formula, the

> majority of them is for treating toxins, especially

> relating to heat (Jin Yin Hua, Lian Qiao, etc.) .....

[Guest guest]

Hi Anne,

I am interested with your info. Please share your research, I really appreciate

it. Do you post your info on any webpage?

 

By the way, I have just found some TCM bird flu articles on

http://www.chinesemedicines.net/qlg/index.asp

Note : Phil, may be you would like to traslate those? I like your translation

better than my own.

 

Best regards,

Yandy

 

 

Message 20

" stressinstudent " annesloft

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:09am(PDT)

Re: Bird flu

 

Dear Yandy,

 

I've done extensive research on H5N1 and have boat loads of info,

but all from a western med. perspective. I'm currently a TCM

student, and would LOVE help in putting this together from a TCM

view. I'm happy to share with you or others who are interested. I

[Guest guest]

Are these formulas being used now for the bird to human strain or are

they thinking a head to when the virus changed to the human to human

version?

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " yandy "

<yandy wrote:

>

> Hi All,

> I posted a message regarding herbal treatment for bird flu some

weeks ago. Could anyone help me analyze the formula that being use

below. Why herbs that correct shao yang disorder is being used (chai

hu and huang qin), but the differentiation syndrome is " toxic evil

assail the lung " ?

> Does the overall approach in treating bird flu is based on wen bing

(warm disease) or wen yi (scource epidemic)? Why the term " toxic evil "

being used instead of " warm evil " ? Many thanks in advance.

>

> 1. Toxic evil assail the lung (du xie fan fei)

> - Main symptoms : fever, chill, sore pharynx, headache, muscle and

joint soreness, cough, scanty phlegm, white tongue fur, floating

slippery rapid pulse

> - Pathomechanisms : Toxic evil assail Lung-defense, causing

Lung-defense brewing (in), impaired diffusion and downbearing of the lung

> - Method of treatment : clear heat and resolve toxin, diffuse the

lung, outthurst evil.

> chai hu (Radix Bupleuri) 10g

> huang qin (Radix Scutellariae) 12g

> zhi ma huang (honey-fried Herba Ephedrae) 6g

> chao xing ren (stir-fry Semen Armeniacae Amarum) 10g

> yin hua (Flos Lonicerae) 10g

> lian qiao (Fructus Forsythiae) 15g

> niu bang zi (Fructus Arctii) 15g

> qiang huo (Rhizoma et Radix Notopterygii) 10g

> mao lu gen (Rhizoma Imperatae) 15g

> sheng gan cao (Radix Glycyrrhizae) 6g

>

> Best regards,

> Yandy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Something I miss in the so far offered TCM analyses of the H5N1

phenomenon is a phased treatment approach. I'm not sure what else to

call it, but remember it's explicit use back in the SARS context, in

a report of clinical experience at a hospital in HongKong. That

struck a bell in my mind, having a year or so earlier been exposed to

an introduction to the treatment strategies of the School of

Attacking and Purging (GongXiaPai) which used a multiple phase herbal

treatment protocol.

 

A rough (from memory) thumbnail example from the GongXiaPai context

(which, as I recall, was recognizably similar to the SARS approach):

 

1) Open the portals, remove blockages including usually the

sinuses/URT, and often also the lower portals; until passages clear,

ready for attacking and purging.

 

2) Attack, clearing heat (specific to the Sx & location), and

ejecting (purging, vomiting, sweating, etc.); until the EPF

substantially removed.

 

3) Nurture and refresh Yin, repair damage from the EPF and from the

attacking process.

 

I may not have the details extact here, but the sense is, I think,

clear. In the SARS info (which I am still looking for, across several

computers, as I switched machines/operating systems in the meantime),

as in the Zhang HeZi approach, each stage is theoretically outlined,

but in fact used, modified to presentation, within a theory of progression.

 

What strikes me also is that the Western accounts (e.g. back with

SARS, and here as reported for H5N1 in recent messages) take pains to

characterize the progression patterns of the disease process. But the

TCM response (also as seen in recent messages) seems to deal with

discreet, albeit often related patterns. I.e. little mention of

progression tactics (the " Illness Mechanism " info seems relatively static).

 

One other instance of a formalized phased approach comes to

mind that described by Misha Cohen in articles on the

AIDS/Hepatitis/Cancer research/protocols used in San Francisco.

Namely, most cases required strong PiWei tonification prior to more

condition-specific treatment, because the digestive system often in

these cases lacks the basic oomph to handle herbal treatment at all.

In fact this does remind me of bits of information from my TCM

education you have to clear heat/stagnation before tonifying; and

the widely known Earth School tenet that PiWei often needs bolstering

before stronger treatment. It may have been a weakness in my

education (or I wasn't listening) that more elaborate ideas of

staged-treatment seemed something new when I ran across them in

post-graduate studies of SuWen progression theory, and Earth and

Attack/Purge schools.

 

Maybe that, back in those days, we didn't get a good enough grounding

in the ShangHanLun. Even this book, though, in terms of its somewhat

comprehensive theoretical structure, seems to deal with discreet

states and individual transmutations. Perhaps if Zhang Ji had written

a companion work of case studies, this perspective would have come out more.

 

Sorry I'm offering more questions than solutions. Has anyone come

across more progression oriented information or case studies for H5N1

Tx from the CM perspective?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chris,

I have charts and articles that used a phased approach to

treatment of SARS during the epidemic translated from the Chinese.

Also, in the latest issue of The Lantern, a great English language

journal of Chinese medicine out of Australia, there is an article by

Chip Chace on Liu Bao-yi's treatment and case histories of fu xie wen

bing/latent qi warm disease. Clearly, Yisheng Liu uses a 'layered'

or 'phased' approach in treating latent evils, which can afflict

multiple levels and channels requiring the phased approach you mention.

 

I agree that much of what has been discussed on the bird flu

limits approaches to a more pharmaceutical one, rather than one that

recognizes the transmutations of disease evils by stages. But, of

course, the bird flu has yet to strike humans in enough numbers,

(thank G-d) to be able to observe its transmutations in a large

number of patients.

 

 

On Apr 21, 2006, at 2:55 AM, wrote:

 

> Something I miss in the so far offered TCM analyses of the H5N1

> phenomenon is a phased treatment approach. I'm not sure what else to

> call it, but remember it's explicit use back in the SARS context, in

> a report of clinical experience at a hospital in HongKong. That

> struck a bell in my mind, having a year or so earlier been exposed to

> an introduction to the treatment strategies of the School of

> Attacking and Purging (GongXiaPai) which used a multiple phase herbal

> treatment protocol.

>

> A rough (from memory) thumbnail example from the GongXiaPai context

> (which, as I recall, was recognizably similar to the SARS approach):

>

> 1) Open the portals, remove blockages including usually the

> sinuses/URT, and often also the lower portals; until passages clear,

> ready for attacking and purging.

>

> 2) Attack, clearing heat (specific to the Sx & location), and

> ejecting (purging, vomiting, sweating, etc.); until the EPF

> substantially removed.

>

> 3) Nurture and refresh Yin, repair damage from the EPF and from the

> attacking process.

>

> I may not have the details extact here, but the sense is, I think,

> clear. In the SARS info (which I am still looking for, across several

> computers, as I switched machines/operating systems in the meantime),

> as in the Zhang HeZi approach, each stage is theoretically outlined,

> but in fact used, modified to presentation, within a theory of

> progression.

>

> What strikes me also is that the Western accounts (e.g. back with

> SARS, and here as reported for H5N1 in recent messages) take pains to

> characterize the progression patterns of the disease process. But the

> TCM response (also as seen in recent messages) seems to deal with

> discreet, albeit often related patterns. I.e. little mention of

> progression tactics (the " Illness Mechanism " info seems relatively

> static).

>

> One other instance of a formalized phased approach comes to

> mind that described by Misha Cohen in articles on the

> AIDS/Hepatitis/Cancer research/protocols used in San Francisco.

> Namely, most cases required strong PiWei tonification prior to more

> condition-specific treatment, because the digestive system often in

> these cases lacks the basic oomph to handle herbal treatment at all.

> In fact this does remind me of bits of information from my TCM

> education you have to clear heat/stagnation before tonifying; and

> the widely known Earth School tenet that PiWei often needs bolstering

> before stronger treatment. It may have been a weakness in my

> education (or I wasn't listening) that more elaborate ideas of

> staged-treatment seemed something new when I ran across them in

> post-graduate studies of SuWen progression theory, and Earth and

> Attack/Purge schools.

>

> Maybe that, back in those days, we didn't get a good enough grounding

> in the ShangHanLun. Even this book, though, in terms of its somewhat

> comprehensive theoretical structure, seems to deal with discreet

> states and individual transmutations. Perhaps if Zhang Ji had written

> a companion work of case studies, this perspective would have come

> out more.

>

> Sorry I'm offering more questions than solutions. Has anyone come

> across more progression oriented information or case studies for H5N1

> Tx from the CM perspective?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The article was published in 2005 and revised at the same year on November 2005.

Not sure what is being revised. It's not impossible they might revise their

approach when the virus has changed to the human to human version.

 

Zev, would you share your insight if the approach to the bird flu is based on

wen bing perspective. Thanks.

 

Regards,

Yandy

 

 

> " acupuncturebeverlyhills " acupuncturebeverlyhills

> Are these formulas being used now for the bird to human strain or are

> they thinking a head to when the virus changed to the human to human

> version?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'll ask my friend Rey Tiquia, who likes to translate articles on

subjects like this. I'll see him at the Asian Medicine conference

this weekend.

 

As far as my own view of wen bing perspectives on bird flu, they

would be pretty much the same principles that apply to warm epidemic

diseases, including SARS.

 

Z'ev

On Apr 23, 2006, at 7:42 AM, yandy wrote:

 

> The article was published in 2005 and revised at the same year on

> November 2005. Not sure what is being revised. It's not impossible

> they might revise their approach when the virus has changed to the

> human to human version.

>

> Zev, would you share your insight if the approach to the bird flu

> is based on wen bing perspective. Thanks.

>

> Regards,

> Yandy

>

>

>> " acupuncturebeverlyhills " acupuncturebeverlyhills

>> Are these formulas being used now for the bird to human strain or are

>> they thinking a head to when the virus changed to the human to human

>> version?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As I brought up earlier on, there has, until recently, been nothing

in English on bing ji or pathomechanisms, which describe the

progressions and development of patterns from onset to the present.

The first volume, Pathomechanisms of the Heart has been published by

Paradigm Press, with four more to come soon on Spleen, Lung, Liver

and Kidneys. I consider them to be essential to the practice of

Chinese medicine, and provide information to fill the many holes in

the Western understanding of pathomechanisms.

 

Also, both Jeffrey Yuen and Michael Broffman teach pattern

differentiation and diagnosis as a moving stream of phenomena, not as

static disease states. Michael bases his teaching largely on the Nan

Jing, especially using vessel/pulse diagnosis and channel theory to

create a matrix on which to frame disease phenomena in a relational

setting.

 

 

On Apr 21, 2006, at 2:55 AM, wrote:

 

> What strikes me also is that the Western accounts (e.g. back with

> SARS, and here as reported for H5N1 in recent messages) take pains to

> characterize the progression patterns of the disease process. But the

> TCM response (also as seen in recent messages) seems to deal with

> discreet, albeit often related patterns. I.e. little mention of

> progression tactics (the " Illness Mechanism " info seems relatively

> static).

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Foreword:A great concern of the klein-klein-aktion team was that a compulsory bird flu vaccination in advance of the World Cup would be carried out. This concern luckily did not materialise because of a concerted effort by klein-klein-aktion. This concern was real at the time of this interview in late October 2005.

No Panic. The truth about Bird Flu, H5N1, vaccines and AIDSInterview by Christopher Ray 27.10.2005

 

 

MORE............... http://www.klein-klein-aktion.de:80/contents/Bird_Flu/hauptteil_bird_flu.html

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