Guest guest Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Here is an intresting article about Magnesium and Childhood Strokes. Hugs Mary http://magnesiumforlife.com/medical-application/childhood-strokes/#arrive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Thanks for the link Mary. I know you are not responsible for the awful quality of this article, which I assume is written by Mark Sircus. This subject is something that interests me greatly, so I have just taken a good look at it, and found it is one of the worst pieces of allegedly scientific writing I have ever read. It cherry-picks quotes from studies that say the exact opposite of what the study as a whole found, puts quotes that say one thing next to the author's own assertions so it looks as if they are connected and generally leaps around confusing the reader into thinking the evidence supports the author when it simply doesn't. It is a truly dreadful piece of work, and worse, it seems to be deliberately misleading. I have left a comment there saying this, but I doubt it will make it past the moderator. The quote given at the beginning, " Magnesium deficiency can cause metabolic changes that may contribute to heart attacks and strokes. National Institute of Health " is not from the NIH at all, but from a chelation therapy website. Tracking down what the NIH actually said about magnesium and strokes, in adults, I found that they say, " some dietary surveys have suggested that a higher magnesium intake may reduce the risk of having a stroke, " and refer to this study http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/98/12/1198 which found a lower risk of strokes in people with higher dietary intake of magnesium, but concludes " Neither use of potassium supplements (RR=0.78; 95% CI, 0.69 to 1.22) nor use of magnesium supplements (RR=0.85; 95% CI, 0.55 to 1.32) was associated with risk of total or ischemic stroke " . In other words, a diet rich in magnesium is associated with a lower risk of stroke, but magnesium supplements do not affect the risk of stroke, not what this article claims at all. The author says of childhood strokes that, " studies show incident rates are increasing, " but the article he refers to actually says, " And studies show incident rates are increasing *due to better reporting by hospitals*. " Not the same thing at all. In fact, " Temporal analysis of mortality rates from childhood stroke shows falling rates but there has been little long-term study of changes in incidence rates. Improved epidemiological data should be a goal of the national and international collaborative networks that are studying childhood stroke. " http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1090379809001615 The study about childhood strokes that he refers to several times http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/STROKEAHA.108.189696v1 says, " Just under half those studied suffered with a pre-existing medical condition such as congenital heart disease or sickle cell disease. Other possible causes of childhood stroke were chicken pox, iron deficiency anaemia, head trauma or recent infection. " There is no mention at all of magnesium deficiency, and there is no plausible mechanism by which magnesium deficiency could cause a stroke in children. I know from personal experience that any child showing symptoms of a stroke would have their blood magnesium levels measured. It is a blood test done routinely on sick babies and children. A magnesium deficiency serious enough to cause an acute illness would certainly be noticed, yet the author claims, " Of course they did not even look at underlying magnesium deficiencies or to the disturbances that vaccines provoke in the vascular system. On both counts we could cry medical negligence bordering on the criminal. " This is a very serious accusation to make without a shred of evidence. The author also says, " The problem is that vaccine promoting pediatricians are pretty much brain dead themselves when it comes to speedy diagnosis or appropriate treatment for neurological and vascular problems in children because they themselves are causing these problems. " He doesn't give any evidence at all for this serious allegation. Does he really think that pediatricians are causing sickle cell anemia or congenital heart disease? Where is the evidence that pediatricians are unable to speedily diagnose or treat neurological and vascular problems in children? He then leaps to talking about women in labor being given magnesium sulfate injections to prevent cerebral palsy in their children. He also mentions that some cases of cerebral palsy in children may be caused by stroke. Well, magnesium sulfate did reduce the incidence of cerebral palsy (not prevent it) in one study, but most cases of cerebral palsy are caused by oxygen starvation during a difficult or premature birth. It is a big leap from this study, which probably shows that giving magnesium makes for a less traumatic birth, to concluding that childhood strokes are caused by magnesium deficiency. It is hard to see how vascular problems in an unborn child could be instantly cured by the administration of magnesium to its mother immediately before birth. Then the author says, " In orthodox medicine adult strokes are said to be caused by high blood pressure, high cholesterol, a history of smoking, too much alcohol and obesity. Children’s strokes, on the other hand, are thought to be caused by birth defects, infections (e.g. meningitis, encephalitis), trauma, and blood disorders such as sickle cell disease. Nowhere do you see in the literature that severe magnesium deficiency could have anything to do with it even though it is well known that high blood pressure, high cholesterol, a history of smoking and too much alcohol and obesity are all correlated with magnesium deficiencies. " I would suggest that this is because magnesium deficiency doesn't have anything to do with childhood strokes. " Thought to be caused " ? The conditions he mentions are very well understood. Strokes are caused either by a blood clot blocking a blood vessel in the brain (ischemic) or by a blood vessel leaking into the brain (hemorrhagic), and there is no obvious connection between magnesium deficiency and either of these events, particularly in a newborn child. Does the author realize that you can easily diagnose severe magnesium deficiency with a simple blood test? Does cigarette smoking somehow cause magnesium deficiency that then causes the stroke? Are the problems caused by obesity actually caused by magnesium deficiency? This looks like a weird sort of guilt by association without any actual evidence at all. The author quotes a Dr Al Pinto as saying, " In my practice the use of magnesium in the early stages of a stroke has rendered the best results for my patients who have the greatest deficits. " This quote is actually from a question Dr Pinto posed to experts on Medscape asking them about the use of magnesium in stroke. In reply the experts said that some studies had found an increased mortality from the use of magnesium after strokes, though it might help in a specific type of stroke (lacunar strokes), and concluded: " The current state of knowledge does not allow for the practical use of magnesium in human stroke. Some data are promising, and require further evaluation in randomized, large-scale studies. " http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/484569 The author says, " With magnesium treatments, the trend toward a better functional outcome at 30 days in adult patients is seen when treatments are started much earlier, within 0-2 hours from onset. " Where is the evidence for this claim? The study he cites found no such thing, and other studies have found no benefit from rapidly correcting magnesium. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17711396 The author then jumps around from one disconnected piece of information to another. A very dubious chart showing that vegetables now contain a fraction of the minerals they used to, then quotes from doctors saying that strokes are preventable, then an unsupported claim that magnesium prevents strokes as if the two were connected. Another quote from a doctor saying that rapid treatment for strokes is important, then a mention of a study that is looking into the possibility that magnesium might help strokes, but has not yet finished and has not yet come to any conclusions, again implying that the two are connected. Then the author suggests dumping a child who has just had a stroke into a bath full of magnesium chloride and sodium bicarbonate. But the author has provided us with no evidence at all that magnesium deficiency has anything whatsoever to do with childhood stroke, and among the references he gives, the biggest randomised study that looked at giving magnesium after a stroke in adults found that it increased mortality! " According to the current European treatment guidelines, no neuroprotective treatment is recommended for stroke patients " , as if this is a terrible failure of physicians. The truth is that it is because no neuroprotective treatment has been proven to be effective! All, I see in this article is a lot of unconnected bits and pieces of information, some true and supported by the evidence, and some untrue, or at least unsupported by any evidence, deliberately strung together in such a way as to fool the unwary reader into thinking that a case has been made. It hasn't, there is no evidence in this article that there is any association between magnesium deficiency and childhood stroke, that supplementing with magnesium will prevent childhood (or adult) stroke, or even that magnesium has any role in treating stroke in children or adults. It will be interesting to see the results of the Fast-Mag trial http://www.fastmag.info but until the results are in it is still not clear if giving magnesium after a stroke helps at all, and of course it has no bearing at all on childhood stroke. Magnesium supplementation is very safe, and in people with normal kidney function is very unlikely to cause any harm. It may well prove to be protective against a number of diseases, but I very much doubt that childhood stroke is one of them. I don't think there is any convincing evidence for this author's claims that conventional doctors are responsible for childhood strokes by ignoring magnesium deficiency or by administering vaccines. As you can probably gather, I rather disgusted with this piece of work. Paul H Maria wrote: > > > Here is an intresting article about Magnesium and Childhood Strokes. > Hugs Mary > http://magnesiumforlife.com/medical-application/childhood-strokes/#arrive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Thanks for the feed back Paul. But what can i say other then, we are very luck that we can google and sheck out some of this articles and find the real truth in the end. Take care hugs Mary - " Paul " <experiences <oleander soup > Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:15 AM Re: Childhood Strokes > Thanks for the link Mary. > > I know you are not responsible for the awful quality of this article, > which I assume is written by Mark Sircus. This subject is something that > interests me greatly, so I have just taken a good look at it, and found > it is one of the worst pieces of allegedly scientific writing I have > ever read. It cherry-picks quotes from studies that say the exact > opposite of what the study as a whole found, puts quotes that say one > thing next to the author's own assertions so it looks as if they are > connected and generally leaps around confusing the reader into thinking > the evidence supports the author when it simply doesn't. It is a truly > dreadful piece of work, and worse, it seems to be deliberately > misleading. I have left a comment there saying this, but I doubt it will > make it past the moderator. > > The quote given at the beginning, " Magnesium deficiency can cause > metabolic changes that may contribute to heart attacks and strokes. > National Institute of Health " is not from the NIH at all, but from a > chelation therapy website. Tracking down what the NIH actually said > about magnesium and strokes, in adults, I found that they say, " some > dietary surveys have suggested that a higher magnesium intake may reduce > the risk of having a stroke, " and refer to this study > http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/98/12/1198 which found a > lower risk of strokes in people with higher dietary intake of magnesium, > but concludes " Neither use of potassium supplements (RR=0.78; 95% CI, > 0.69 to 1.22) nor use of magnesium supplements (RR=0.85; 95% CI, 0.55 to > 1.32) was associated with risk of total or ischemic stroke " . In other > words, a diet rich in magnesium is associated with a lower risk of > stroke, but magnesium supplements do not affect the risk of stroke, not > what this article claims at all. > > The author says of childhood strokes that, " studies show incident rates > are increasing, " but the article he refers to actually says, " And > studies show incident rates are increasing *due to better reporting by > hospitals*. " Not the same thing at all. In fact, " Temporal analysis of > mortality rates from childhood stroke shows falling rates but there has > been little long-term study of changes in incidence rates. Improved > epidemiological data should be a goal of the national and international > collaborative networks that are studying childhood stroke. " > http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1090379809001615 > > The study about childhood strokes that he refers to several times > http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/STROKEAHA.108.189696v1 says, > " Just under half those studied suffered with a pre-existing medical > condition such as congenital heart disease or sickle cell disease. Other > possible causes of childhood stroke were chicken pox, iron deficiency > anaemia, head trauma or recent infection. " There is no mention at all of > magnesium deficiency, and there is no plausible mechanism by which > magnesium deficiency could cause a stroke in children. I know from > personal experience that any child showing symptoms of a stroke would > have their blood magnesium levels measured. It is a blood test done > routinely on sick babies and children. A magnesium deficiency serious > enough to cause an acute illness would certainly be noticed, yet the > author claims, " Of course they did not even look at underlying magnesium > deficiencies or to the disturbances that vaccines provoke in the > vascular system. On both counts we could cry medical negligence > bordering on the criminal. " This is a very serious accusation to make > without a shred of evidence. > > The author also says, " The problem is that vaccine promoting > pediatricians are pretty much brain dead themselves when it comes to > speedy diagnosis or appropriate treatment for neurological and vascular > problems in children because they themselves are causing these > problems. " He doesn't give any evidence at all for this serious > allegation. Does he really think that pediatricians are causing sickle > cell anemia or congenital heart disease? Where is the evidence that > pediatricians are unable to speedily diagnose or treat neurological and > vascular problems in children? > > He then leaps to talking about women in labor being given magnesium > sulfate injections to prevent cerebral palsy in their children. He also > mentions that some cases of cerebral palsy in children may be caused by > stroke. Well, magnesium sulfate did reduce the incidence of cerebral > palsy (not prevent it) in one study, but most cases of cerebral palsy > are caused by oxygen starvation during a difficult or premature birth. > It is a big leap from this study, which probably shows that giving > magnesium makes for a less traumatic birth, to concluding that childhood > strokes are caused by magnesium deficiency. It is hard to see how > vascular problems in an unborn child could be instantly cured by the > administration of magnesium to its mother immediately before birth. > > Then the author says, " In orthodox medicine adult strokes are said to be > caused by high blood pressure, high cholesterol, a history of smoking, > too much alcohol and obesity. Children’s strokes, on the other hand, are > thought to be caused by birth defects, infections (e.g. meningitis, > encephalitis), trauma, and blood disorders such as sickle cell disease. > Nowhere do you see in the literature that severe magnesium deficiency > could have anything to do with it even though it is well known that high > blood pressure, high cholesterol, a history of smoking and too much > alcohol and obesity are all correlated with magnesium deficiencies. " I > would suggest that this is because magnesium deficiency doesn't have > anything to do with childhood strokes. " Thought to be caused " ? The > conditions he mentions are very well understood. Strokes are caused > either by a blood clot blocking a blood vessel in the brain (ischemic) > or by a blood vessel leaking into the brain (hemorrhagic), and there is > no obvious connection between magnesium deficiency and either of these > events, particularly in a newborn child. Does the author realize that > you can easily diagnose severe magnesium deficiency with a simple blood > test? Does cigarette smoking somehow cause magnesium deficiency that > then causes the stroke? Are the problems caused by obesity actually > caused by magnesium deficiency? This looks like a weird sort of guilt by > association without any actual evidence at all. > > The author quotes a Dr Al Pinto as saying, " In my practice the use of > magnesium in the early stages of a stroke has rendered the best results > for my patients who have the greatest deficits. " This quote is actually > from a question Dr Pinto posed to experts on Medscape asking them about > the use of magnesium in stroke. In reply the experts said that some > studies had found an increased mortality from the use of magnesium after > strokes, though it might help in a specific type of stroke (lacunar > strokes), and concluded: " The current state of knowledge does not allow > for the practical use of magnesium in human stroke. Some data are > promising, and require further evaluation in randomized, large-scale > studies. " http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/484569 > > The author says, " With magnesium treatments, the trend toward a better > functional outcome at 30 days in adult patients is seen when treatments > are started much earlier, within 0-2 hours from onset. " Where is the > evidence for this claim? The study he cites found no such thing, and > other studies have found no benefit from rapidly correcting magnesium. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17711396 > > The author then jumps around from one disconnected piece of information > to another. A very dubious chart showing that vegetables now contain a > fraction of the minerals they used to, then quotes from doctors saying > that strokes are preventable, then an unsupported claim that magnesium > prevents strokes as if the two were connected. Another quote from a > doctor saying that rapid treatment for strokes is important, then a > mention of a study that is looking into the possibility that magnesium > might help strokes, but has not yet finished and has not yet come to any > conclusions, again implying that the two are connected. Then the author > suggests dumping a child who has just had a stroke into a bath full of > magnesium chloride and sodium bicarbonate. But the author has provided > us with no evidence at all that magnesium deficiency has anything > whatsoever to do with childhood stroke, and among the references he > gives, the biggest randomised study that looked at giving magnesium > after a stroke in adults found that it increased mortality! > > " According to the current European treatment guidelines, no > neuroprotective treatment is recommended for stroke patients " , as if > this is a terrible failure of physicians. The truth is that it is > because no neuroprotective treatment has been proven to be effective! > > All, I see in this article is a lot of unconnected bits and pieces of > information, some true and supported by the evidence, and some untrue, > or at least unsupported by any evidence, deliberately strung together in > such a way as to fool the unwary reader into thinking that a case has > been made. It hasn't, there is no evidence in this article that there is > any association between magnesium deficiency and childhood stroke, that > supplementing with magnesium will prevent childhood (or adult) stroke, > or even that magnesium has any role in treating stroke in children or > adults. It will be interesting to see the results of the Fast-Mag trial > http://www.fastmag.info but until the results are in it is still not > clear if giving magnesium after a stroke helps at all, and of course it > has no bearing at all on childhood stroke. > > Magnesium supplementation is very safe, and in people with normal kidney > function is very unlikely to cause any harm. It may well prove to be > protective against a number of diseases, but I very much doubt that > childhood stroke is one of them. I don't think there is any convincing > evidence for this author's claims that conventional doctors are > responsible for childhood strokes by ignoring magnesium deficiency or by > administering vaccines. > > As you can probably gather, I rather disgusted with this piece of work. > > Paul H > > > Maria wrote: >> >> >> Here is an intresting article about Magnesium and Childhood Strokes. >> Hugs Mary >> http://magnesiumforlife.com/medical-application/childhood-strokes/#arrive > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2010 Report Share Posted January 27, 2010 Hi Mary, I got a reply from Mark Sircus, regarding my comment on that article. Needless to say he disagrees with me :-) He wrote (sic): " You expose your ignorance greatly here since blood magnesium levels hardly ever change even when the cells and tissues are stripped bare. So contemporay medicine knows zip about magneisum medicine and you dont seem to even have an intuitive sense of what todays massive magneisum deficiencies are doing to young and old alike. " I still think it's an awful article, and it really doesn't contain any evidence that magnesium deficiency causes childhood strokes. Who knows, maybe it does cause childhood stroke, but I prefer to go with the evidence where such things are concerned, rather than my intuition. Best wishes, Paul Maria wrote: > Thanks for the feed back Paul. > > But what can i say other then, we are very luck that we can google and > sheck out some of this articles and find the real truth in the end. > > Take care hugs Mary > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2010 Report Share Posted January 27, 2010 - Paul oleander soup Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:28 AM Re: Childhood Strokes Hi Mary,I got a reply from Mark Sircus, regarding my comment on that article. Needless to say he disagrees with me :-)He wrote (sic):"You expose your ignorance greatly here since blood magnesium levels hardly ever change even when the cells and tissues are stripped bare. So contemporay medicine knows zip about magneisum medicine and you dont seem to even have an intuitive sense of what todays massive magneisum deficiencies are doing to young and old alike."I still think it's an awful article, and it really doesn't contain any evidence that magnesium deficiency causes childhood strokes.Who knows, maybe it does cause childhood stroke, but I prefer to go with the evidence where such things are concerned, rather than my intuition.Best wishes,PaulMaria wrote:> Thanks for the feed back Paul.>> But what can i say other then, we are very luck that we can google and > sheck out some of this articles and find the real truth in the end.>> Take care hugs Mary>>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2010 Report Share Posted January 27, 2010 Hi Paul. I tent to lean towords taking Magnesium then be sorry i dint believe someone tryind to aducate the public, we all know Magnesium is depleted in the soils so it's not in our daily diet and we needed for good health. But it dosen't mean that i won't researched the subject, especially when kids are involved. When i was growing up we never heard kids suffering from strokes or any other adult diseases they do today, so there must be some conection to it. And where will you get the evidence Paul ? On the other head we are not married to evidence but practice- error and intuition. my two cents worth of opinion. Hugs Mary - Paul oleander soup Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:28 AM Re: Childhood Strokes Hi Mary,I got a reply from Mark Sircus, regarding my comment on that article. Needless to say he disagrees with me :-)He wrote (sic):"You expose your ignorance greatly here since blood magnesium levels hardly ever change even when the cells and tissues are stripped bare. So contemporay medicine knows zip about magneisum medicine and you dont seem to even have an intuitive sense of what todays massive magneisum deficiencies are doing to young and old alike."I still think it's an awful article, and it really doesn't contain any evidence that magnesium deficiency causes childhood strokes.Who knows, maybe it does cause childhood stroke, but I prefer to go with the evidence where such things are concerned, rather than my intuition.Best wishes,PaulMaria wrote:> Thanks for the feed back Paul.>> But what can i say other then, we are very luck that we can google and > sheck out some of this articles and find the real truth in the end.>> Take care hugs Mary>>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2010 Report Share Posted January 27, 2010 Mary, Could the strokes be due to blocked arteries? I am childless, but one time out of curiousity, i checked the powdered milk of infants. Lo and behold, they have hydrogenated oil as ingredient!!!! That is transfat right there. It does not matter whether it is partial of full....it is still harmful hydrogenated oil. Melly oleander soup , Paul <experiences wrote: > > Hi Mary, > > I got a reply from Mark Sircus, regarding my comment on that article. > Needless to say he disagrees with me :-) > > He wrote (sic): > " You expose your ignorance greatly here since blood magnesium levels > hardly ever change even when the cells and tissues are stripped bare. So > contemporay medicine knows zip about magneisum medicine and you dont > seem to even have an intuitive sense of what todays massive magneisum > deficiencies are doing to young and old alike. " > > I still think it's an awful article, and it really doesn't contain any > evidence that magnesium deficiency causes childhood strokes. > Who knows, maybe it does cause childhood stroke, but I prefer to go with > the evidence where such things are concerned, rather than my intuition. > > Best wishes, > > Paul > > > Maria wrote: > > Thanks for the feed back Paul. > > > > But what can i say other then, we are very luck that we can google and > > sheck out some of this articles and find the real truth in the end. > > > > Take care hugs Mary > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2010 Report Share Posted January 27, 2010 Hi Melly. I will not discard that. As no body knows for sure what's the reason for our young ones to have health problems especially strokes, but yes diet and ingredients in foods plays a big role in young and old alike , and the responcibility falls on to the parents what they feed their children. Also supplements are a must which it dosen't happen, because doctors keep telling us we get our supplemrnts from our foods, what a lot of ......... Hugs Mary - tita_mel oleander soup Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:07 AM Re: Childhood Strokes Mary,Could the strokes be due to blocked arteries? I am childless, but one time out of curiousity, i checked the powdered milk of infants. Lo and behold, they have hydrogenated oil as ingredient!!!! That is transfat right there. It does not matter whether it is partial of full....it is still harmful hydrogenated oil.Mellyoleander soup , Paul <experiences wrote:>> Hi Mary,> > I got a reply from Mark Sircus, regarding my comment on that article. > Needless to say he disagrees with me :-)> > He wrote (sic):> "You expose your ignorance greatly here since blood magnesium levels > hardly ever change even when the cells and tissues are stripped bare. So > contemporay medicine knows zip about magneisum medicine and you dont > seem to even have an intuitive sense of what todays massive magneisum > deficiencies are doing to young and old alike."> > I still think it's an awful article, and it really doesn't contain any > evidence that magnesium deficiency causes childhood strokes.> Who knows, maybe it does cause childhood stroke, but I prefer to go with > the evidence where such things are concerned, rather than my intuition.> > Best wishes,> > Paul> > > Maria wrote:> > Thanks for the feed back Paul.> >> > But what can i say other then, we are very luck that we can google and > > sheck out some of this articles and find the real truth in the end.> >> > Take care hugs Mary> >> >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 Hello Mary; Where in the world do you think you get your nutrition if not from food? I'm not saying that some diets do not need supplementation but if you think a person can survive on pills you are incorrect. If you want to thrive you need to eat. I don't mean the crap which comes out of packages and cans but whole fresh produce, sprouted foods, and fermented foods. If you buy Viatmin A, for example, you are getting a bunch of beta carotene, most likely. But that is only a small component of the carotenes which, say a carrot, a sweet potato, brocolli, beets and more provide.. Don't you think it might behoove you to get the majority of your nutritional needs intact and from a whole food source rather than relying on the small component portion which man has learned to synthisize or extract? Also, whether or not youknow, all tablets have some tricalcium phoshate in them. Although considered safe for human consumption, tricalcium phosphate is an unnatural compound which can cause nausea, vomiting, increased thirst and increased urination, dry mouth and constipation and, in some, a decreased appetite (no jokes as this may be associated with a high dose poisoning leading to anorexia). It and other phosphates are added to virtually all commercial nut and rice milks as virtually all packaged and frozen foods and food powders and to pharmaceutical tablets and your tap water. A diet high in inorganic phosphates--additives commonly found in processed foods--may increase the risk for and speed spread of lung cancer, according to a preliminary study in the January, 2009 issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. Read it for yourself at: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2009/01/study-phosphates-fuel-lung-cancer.html The source is Dr. Keith Block, Director, Integrative Medical Education, University of Illinois College of Medicine. Yours with wishes for better health, Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 Hi Kathy. Maybe i dint make my self clear in my last post. I ment to say package foods do not contain any nutrients or alive vitamins and minerals, and i hope i dint upset anybody because that was not my intention. I never mention or say that a person can survive on pills, and i dont know where you got that information from, all i said was that we need supplements. I'm 100% organic garder grower and user and make my own calcium and minerals from my vegetables and herbs. So in few words i'm with you it just come up wrong and i hope this clears the air. Have a lovely day and take care. Hugs Mary - Kathy oleander soup Friday, January 29, 2010 7:39 AM Re: Childhood Strokes Hello Mary; Where in the world do you think you get your nutrition if not from food? I'm not saying that some diets do not need supplementation but if you think a person can survive on pills you are incorrect. If you want to thrive you need to eat. I don't mean the crap which comes out of packages and cans but whole fresh produce, sprouted foods, and fermented foods. If you buy Viatmin A, for example, you are getting a bunch of beta carotene, most likely. But that is only a small component of the carotenes which, say a carrot, a sweet potato, brocolli, beets and more provide.. Don't you think it might behoove you to get the majority of your nutritional needs intact and from a whole food source rather than relying on the small component portion which man has learned to synthisize or extract? Also, whether or not youknow, all tablets have some tricalcium phoshate in them. Although considered safe for human consumption, tricalcium phosphate is an unnatural compound which can cause nausea, vomiting, increased thirst and increased urination, dry mouth and constipation and, in some, a decreased appetite (no jokes as this may be associated with a high dose poisoning leading to anorexia). It and other phosphates are added to virtually all commercial nut and rice milks as virtually all packaged and frozen foods and food powders and to pharmaceutical tablets and your tap water. A diet high in inorganic phosphates--additives commonly found in processed foods--may increase the risk for and speed spread of lung cancer, according to a preliminary study in the January, 2009 issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. Read it for yourself at: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2009/01/study-phosphates-fuel-lung-cancer.html The source is Dr Keith Block, Director, Integrative Medical Education, University of Illinois College of Medicine. Yours with wishes for better health, Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Hi Mary, This isn't really directed at you, it's just you raise a couple of points that I think are important. Personally I am interested in the truth, wherever it happens to lead, and I have had a particular interest in magnesium, zinc and copper since I first started working in clinical biochemistry laboratories and measuring these substances in body fluids, back in 1980. This is something I have been researching so I have some information handy, so I thought I might as well share it, for what it's worth. Stroke is also a subject close to my heart since my mother spent the last ten years of her life in a wheelchair due to a stroke. > I tent to lean towords taking Magnesium then be sorry i dint believe > someone tryind to aducate the public, I'm not at all sure Mark Sircus is trying to educate the public. His website seems to be entirely aimed at convincing people they are deficient in magnesium to promote his books and products. The article in question seems to be arguing that either vaccination or magnesium deficiency causes childhood strokes, Sircus doesn't seem to be quite sure which, and he gives no evidence whatsoever for either assertion. Whatever causes it, it is definitely the fault of pediatricians; " they themselves are causing these problems " , he says. How it is that vaccines can be causing strokes that occur during childbirth, or how pediatricians could be responsible for parents feeding themselves or their children a diet so awful they end up severely deficient in magnesium, he does not explain. Incidentally I notice Sircus also promotes sodium bicarbonate as a cure for cancer, claims that Vernon Johnston is a " Confirmed Bicarbonate Cancer Cure " and says, " What is remarkable about Vernon’s case is that his result, and the same goes for Dr. Simoncini’s patients, shows a clear cause and effect relationship between cancer, its elimination and sodium bicarbonate, that simple household item that doubles behind hospital doors as an emergency room medicine " , when Johnston himself says on his website that he had conventional treatment: " Pre-treatment PSA was 22 but has decreased to 5.88 after institution of Finasteride and Casodex. " Finasteride and Casodex are hormone treatments for prostate cancer that are very successful in some cases. So much for " medical veritas " ! > we all know Magnesium is depleted > in the soils so it's not in our daily diet and we needed for good health. I know we have been told this over and over, but I am always suspicious of things " we all know " , and I want to know exactly how we know it. When I have looked for evidence for this claim, there doesn't seem to be much. When you think about it, plants don't grow well if the soil, doesn't have enough magnesium, and modern farming techniques are aimed at increasing yield to make more money, so it seems unlikely that farmers would not add magnesium to the soil if their crops needed it. Most people who claim that our soils are depleted of minerals, and in particular magnesium, refer to a UK study that has been disputed. It is not clear if the same methods of measuring magnesium were used in different years and if the values obtained are directly comparable. http://www.mineralresourcesint.co.uk/pdf/Mineral_Depletion_of_Foods_1940_2002.pd\ f Even that disputed study only shows a 24% reduction in the average magnesium content of vegetables, and a 16% reduction in fruit. When you realize the magnesium content of vegetables and fruit can vary by up to 700% depending on variety, where it is grown and many other factors, it is very hard to say if this is significant or not. There is an interesting review of the subject here: http://tinyurl.com/dxaq3u It found the nutrient content of foods barely changed between 1963 and 1999 and concludes: " The relatively stable relationships among the three macronutrient cations [calcium, magnesium, potassium] argues that either all three are being depleted proportionally from soils or, alternatively, none of them is depleted in soils and that alternative explanations must be sought for changes in composition when observed. The widespread use of soil testing and fertilizers as part of the strategy for the increasing yields of modern agriculture also argues strongly against the notion of widespread soil depletion of mineral nutrients. " I have also looked at USA figures from 1948 here: http://www.soilandhealth.org/06clipfile/RCE/rceALL.html These show there was, very probably still is, a huge variation in mineral content in various vegetables from different parts of the USA. These figures are given for dry weight (ash) and it is difficult to compare them with other figures. USA figures from 1942 here: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/24/1/41.pdf Current figures from the US Department of Agriculture: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ According to these figures, since 1942 there has been no change in the magnesium content of cabbage, lettuce, and tomatoes, and a slight increase in the magnesium content of spinach. > But it dosen't mean that i won't researched the subject, especially when > kids are involved. When i was growing up we never heard kids suffering > from strokes or any other adult diseases they do today, so there must > be some conection to it. There has been no increase in childhood stroke, which is still very rare - the incidence is around 2.5 per 100,000 children. Sircus says that the incidence is increasing, but he misquoted the article which actually says that doctors are better at diagnosing it than they used to be, making it look as if there are more cases. Most of us will thankfully never come across a case, unless we are acquainted with 40,000 children. > And where will you get the evidence Paul ? Well we have been measuring magnesium in blood and in other tissues for at least the past 50 years. Serum levels of magnesium are routinely measured in hospitals, there is no mystery about it. Since these do not show the levels of magnesium deficiency that Sircus claims, he has to argue that a person can be severely deficient in magnesium (low tissue levels) and still have a normal serum level. According to everything I have read about this, and my experiences measuring magnesium this is not true. People with mild deficiencies of magnesium can have normal serum levels, but not severe cases. It is serum levels that are important in supplying magnesium to muscles, particularly the heart. Intracellular levels are useful in assessing body stores of magnesium, not for managing acute illnesses like stroke where serum levels are important. In other words scientists have been looking for evidence, and they have not found it. We do understand how magnesium works in the body very well, and there is no plausible way magnesium deficiency could cause stroke, especially not in children. There is an association between low magnesium and diabetes and high blood pressure, but low magnesium may well be a measure of a generally poor diet, not a cause. There have been trials of magnesium supplements for high blood pressure, but they have not been very successful. One of the studies that Sircus mentions is a very detailed 52 page review of what is known about childhood stroke, the different types, causes, treatment etc. I think that Sircus is utterly wrong to try to convince us that there is a growing epidemic of childhood stroke caused by magnesium deficiency and that doctors are ignorant of this. It simply is not supported by the evidence at all. > On the other head we are > not married to evidence but practice- error and intuition. my two > cents worth of opinion. I don't know how that would work in such a rare condition. Of course it is important that we get enough magnesium in our diet, but I suggest that making sure that we eat plenty of fruit and vegetables is more important than taking a magnesium supplement. That said, magnesium supplementation is unlikely to do any harm in anyone with good kidney function, and may do some good. I just dispute any connection between magnesium and childhood strokes that Sircus claims in his horribly written article. Best wishes, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Hi Again Paul. I'm sure i'ts not directed at me, as i'm not an expert on anything other then my families health and mine, but on the subject of Magnesium i have been useing Magnesium flakes for very long time and long before Mark Sircus come into the picture. I have study herbs minerals and vitamins and their health benefits since 1991 . So the Mark Sircus article means nothing to me other then as information. And dont forget evey site we visit on the net does the same thing, either they promote a book or a product but that does not buther me because i only buy the products i want locally and if i'm intrested and not because they are selling it. If Mark is wrong about Magnesium and childhood strokes so much the better, but we should also blame the people that give him the information not just Mark or any Mark out there that writes an article. And all the information on the sites you sent talk about years 1980s we are in year 2010 cant people reasearch todays soil mineral contents ? and why should we believe them and not someone else, you see where i'm going ? Who educates the educaters ? And dont get me wrong Paul i respect your knowledge and your believes.But i also know our Tony wouldn't like this subject to go any feather as this site is for healing and not disputes. Thanks for the sites though Hugs Mary - " Paul " <experiences <oleander soup > Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:34 AM Re: Childhood Strokes > Hi Mary, > > This isn't really directed at you, it's just you raise a couple of > points that I think are important. Personally I am interested in the > truth, wherever it happens to lead, and I have had a particular interest > in magnesium, zinc and copper since I first started working in clinical > biochemistry laboratories and measuring these substances in body fluids, > back in 1980. This is something I have been researching so I have some > information handy, so I thought I might as well share it, for what it's > worth. Stroke is also a subject close to my heart since my mother spent > the last ten years of her life in a wheelchair due to a stroke. > >> I tent to lean towords taking Magnesium then be sorry i dint believe >> someone tryind to aducate the public, > > I'm not at all sure Mark Sircus is trying to educate the public. His > website seems to be entirely aimed at convincing people they are > deficient in magnesium to promote his books and products. > > The article in question seems to be arguing that either vaccination or > magnesium deficiency causes childhood strokes, Sircus doesn't seem to be > quite sure which, and he gives no evidence whatsoever for either > assertion. Whatever causes it, it is definitely the fault of > pediatricians; " they themselves are causing these problems " , he says. > How it is that vaccines can be causing strokes that occur during > childbirth, or how pediatricians could be responsible for parents > feeding themselves or their children a diet so awful they end up > severely deficient in magnesium, he does not explain. > > Incidentally I notice Sircus also promotes sodium bicarbonate as a cure > for cancer, claims that Vernon Johnston is a " Confirmed Bicarbonate > Cancer Cure " and says, " What is remarkable about Vernon’s case is that > his result, and the same goes for Dr. Simoncini’s patients, shows a > clear cause and effect relationship between cancer, its elimination and > sodium bicarbonate, that simple household item that doubles behind > hospital doors as an emergency room medicine " , when Johnston himself > says on his website that he had conventional treatment: " Pre-treatment > PSA was 22 but has decreased to 5.88 after institution of Finasteride > and Casodex. " Finasteride and Casodex are hormone treatments for > prostate cancer that are very successful in some cases. So much for > " medical veritas " ! > >> we all know Magnesium is depleted >> in the soils so it's not in our daily diet and we needed for good >> health. > > I know we have been told this over and over, but I am always suspicious > of things " we all know " , and I want to know exactly how we know it. When > I have looked for evidence for this claim, there doesn't seem to be > much. When you think about it, plants don't grow well if the soil, > doesn't have enough magnesium, and modern farming techniques are aimed > at increasing yield to make more money, so it seems unlikely that > farmers would not add magnesium to the soil if their crops needed it. > > Most people who claim that our soils are depleted of minerals, and in > particular magnesium, refer to a UK study that has been disputed. It is > not clear if the same methods of measuring magnesium were used in > different years and if the values obtained are directly comparable. > http://www.mineralresourcesint.co.uk/pdf/Mineral_Depletion_of_Foods_1940_2002.pd\ f > > Even that disputed study only shows a 24% reduction in the average > magnesium content of vegetables, and a 16% reduction in fruit. When you > realize the magnesium content of vegetables and fruit can vary by up to > 700% depending on variety, where it is grown and many other factors, it > is very hard to say if this is significant or not. > > There is an interesting review of the subject here: > http://tinyurl.com/dxaq3u > It found the nutrient content of foods barely changed between 1963 and > 1999 and concludes: " The relatively stable relationships among the three > macronutrient cations [calcium, magnesium, potassium] argues that either > all three are being depleted proportionally from soils or, > alternatively, none of them is depleted in soils and that alternative > explanations must be sought for changes in composition when observed. > The widespread use of soil testing and fertilizers as part of the > strategy for the increasing yields of modern agriculture also argues > strongly against the notion of widespread soil depletion of mineral > nutrients. " > > I have also looked at USA figures from 1948 here: > http://www.soilandhealth.org/06clipfile/RCE/rceALL.html > These show there was, very probably still is, a huge variation in > mineral content in various vegetables from different parts of the USA. > These figures are given for dry weight (ash) and it is difficult to > compare them with other figures. > > USA figures from 1942 here: > http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/24/1/41.pdf > > Current figures from the US Department of Agriculture: > http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ > > According to these figures, since 1942 there has been no change in the > magnesium content of cabbage, lettuce, and tomatoes, and a slight > increase in the magnesium content of spinach. > >> But it dosen't mean that i won't researched the subject, especially when >> kids are involved. When i was growing up we never heard kids suffering >> from strokes or any other adult diseases they do today, so there must >> be some conection to it. > > There has been no increase in childhood stroke, which is still very rare > - the incidence is around 2.5 per 100,000 children. Sircus says that the > incidence is increasing, but he misquoted the article which actually > says that doctors are better at diagnosing it than they used to be, > making it look as if there are more cases. Most of us will thankfully > never come across a case, unless we are acquainted with 40,000 children. > >> And where will you get the evidence Paul ? > > Well we have been measuring magnesium in blood and in other tissues for > at least the past 50 years. Serum levels of magnesium are routinely > measured in hospitals, there is no mystery about it. Since these do not > show the levels of magnesium deficiency that Sircus claims, he has to > argue that a person can be severely deficient in magnesium (low tissue > levels) and still have a normal serum level. According to everything I > have read about this, and my experiences measuring magnesium this is not > true. People with mild deficiencies of magnesium can have normal serum > levels, but not severe cases. It is serum levels that are important in > supplying magnesium to muscles, particularly the heart. Intracellular > levels are useful in assessing body stores of magnesium, not for > managing acute illnesses like stroke where serum levels are important. > > In other words scientists have been looking for evidence, and they have > not found it. We do understand how magnesium works in the body very > well, and there is no plausible way magnesium deficiency could cause > stroke, especially not in children. There is an association between low > magnesium and diabetes and high blood pressure, but low magnesium may > well be a measure of a generally poor diet, not a cause. There have been > trials of magnesium supplements for high blood pressure, but they have > not been very successful. > > One of the studies that Sircus mentions is a very detailed 52 page > review of what is known about childhood stroke, the different types, > causes, treatment etc. I think that Sircus is utterly wrong to try to > convince us that there is a growing epidemic of childhood stroke caused > by magnesium deficiency and that doctors are ignorant of this. It simply > is not supported by the evidence at all. > > > On the other head we are >> not married to evidence but practice- error and intuition. my two >> cents worth of opinion. > > I don't know how that would work in such a rare condition. Of course it > is important that we get enough magnesium in our diet, but I suggest > that making sure that we eat plenty of fruit and vegetables is more > important than taking a magnesium supplement. > > That said, magnesium supplementation is unlikely to do any harm in > anyone with good kidney function, and may do some good. > > I just dispute any connection between magnesium and childhood strokes > that Sircus claims in his horribly written article. > > Best wishes, > > Paul --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Dear Mark & Paul & Others: I think Sircus offers a lot of helpful recommendations for sustainable non-toxic self-care. Bends over backwards in fact. Unfortunately he is also a bloviating windbag & may not always serve his own cause well. For Sircus-free, pre-Sircus, information on magnesium, see Dr. Mildred S. Seelig's even-handed work at: www.mgwater.com With best wishes, mgw oleander soup , " Maria " <mary1kon wrote: > > Hi Again Paul. > > I'm sure i'ts not directed at me, as i'm not an expert on anything other then my families health and mine, but on the subject of Magnesium i have been useing Magnesium flakes for very long time and long before Mark Sircus come into the picture. I have study herbs minerals and vitamins and their health benefits since 1991 . So the Mark Sircus article means nothing to me other then as information. > And dont forget evey site we visit on the net does the same thing, either they promote a book or a product but that does not buther me because i only buy the products i want locally and if i'm intrested and not because they are selling it. > > If Mark is wrong about Magnesium and childhood strokes so much the better, but we should also blame the people that give him the information not just Mark or any Mark out there that writes an article. > > And all the information on the sites you sent talk about years 1980s we are in year 2010 cant people reasearch todays soil mineral contents ? and why should we believe them and not someone else, you see where i'm going ? Who educates the educaters ? > > And dont get me wrong Paul i respect your knowledge and your believes. But i also know our Tony wouldn't like this subject to go any feather as this site is for healing and not disputes. > > Thanks for the sites though > Hugs Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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