Statistics

November 17, 2003

, " Emmanuel Segmen "

<susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Barry,

>

> I would support your thesis. It's profoundly cheaper to pay out of

pocket for acupuncture than it is for even the cheapest health care

insurance. If any one feels otherwise, please, please direct me to

the cheaper healthcare insurance. Mine is absolutely minimal group

insurance and is $384 every 2 months. It only covers major medical

and nothing else. I see a good MD buddy for blood work when I want

it and pay out of pocket.

This is an outrageous example… For 1) There are only a few 's

out there that are going to forgo any kind of healthcare insurance to

opt for some acupuncture treatments. This is definitely not the

mainstream thinking and IMO a bit tilted. Acupuncture will not save

your life when you are rushed to the hospital after a car accident.

And I see you, Emmanuel, have Health insurance, why don't you give it

up and rely on out-of-pocket Chinese medicine for your health?

Certain areas will have these out-side-the box people, santa cruz,

boulder, and barry don't you like in Ashville?

2) The average person who just can't afford health insurance is

99.9% of the time not going to be seeking out acupuncture to deal

with there ailments. These people, usually low-income, are going to

be going to the drug-store and buying a remedy for $8.00. They are

not going to pay $120.00 for an initial consultation then want to

hear it will probably take 4-6 treatments to get results adding up to

around a minimum of $400. I just don't think CM is set up in any way

to service people that don't have some surplus of $$$, or are just

philosophically outside the system enough to give up basic emergency

health care.

I am trying to think of certain ailments that low-income people will

pay for. Maybe muscle-skeletal, because the results are somewhat

fast. But most minor things (colds, flues) will be dealt with by the

drugstore and most long-term ailments that need on-going treatment

seems questionable. These people might end up at the school clinics,

but not in our offices.

When would they start coming.

1) If they are seriously worried about there health condition

and have tried almost everything else, spending everything they have

on curing it… or

2) IMO, when the public eye `somehow' (probably with stats)

proves that there is some efficacy… A few posts ago, Z'ev (I think)

shouted out the need for the Andrew weil of CM to come forth

(something like that) – Why is A.W. so popular. He offers a

inexpensive solution (go to the health food store and buy a product)

to the western medical system that has been proven! If you have ever

heard him debate, he is always quoting stat after stat, and people

love it!

I do lump the middle class into the above because most of them have

no reason not to believe that Excedrin cold & flue is not going to

work. And most people that come in for long-term complaints are

coming why? Because a friend told them about it and they got some

help. But just as many people have friends that have told them that

they got help from chiros, cranial-sacral, and angel channeling. CM

is lumped into the `OTHER' and not seen as some profound amazing

system to the populous as a whole

There is statistically probably only a fraction of the population

(less than 1%) that have done CM – Most of these people that continue

to use it have money. I think it is a pipe-dream that somehow the

populous is going to suddenly knock down our doors… It hasn't

happened yet, so why would things suddenly change, especially without

some research. . I don't see us taking over the alternative field

because we are so great. Not at all, we have a niche with `some

people' and there are currently a lot of struggling CMers. So we

have courses like make $100,000 is one year. And what do they

recommend to do, stuff like standing in the aisle of a drugstore to

rope people in… As well as every marketing gimmick under the sun…

Come on… Should we have to do such a song and dance to get patients…

Well the truth is, we have too and that says enough for the state of

our profession to me….

I agree with Todd….

>

> The tens of millions of people who can not afford health insurance

are the most likely candidates for Chinese acupuncture.

Disagree!

> Actually most of my students fit into this category, and I direct

them as to where to find a local CM practitioner so they don't need

to suffer with the flu or other readily treatable malady.

Students are always poor, this is not a representation of the

population.

E – I just disagree.

-

November 17, 2003

As we know with one of the St. Johnswort studies, it was totally biased

and the intentions were malevolent. A German study was done by a

pharmaceutical company that bought out a company producing a St.

Johnswort product, measuring treatment of patients with major

depression by St. Johnswort. After the poor showing in the study, the

drug company apparently discontinued the product.

>>>>And this is my point. Do you want others to do the research. They are

already doing it. All it will take is a few very large and publicized studies to

turn around a trend in CAM therapy. We are now practicing in a society that

gives us the benefit without much good evidence. This same society still gives

much credence to so-called medical research. And again look at St Johns example

Alon

November 17, 2003

In the beginning of the last century, homeopathy was at a crossroads. The

Rockefellar commission decided to fund the majority of medical colleges because

they and the Carniges knew is was a profitably venture. It was not for the

concern of health in this country, but a major profit for themselves because if

you're sick, you will pay. The conciousness of Americans differs from

Europeans, notiably the French. The French want to understand the process and

Americans want to purchase it. I knew when I graduated from Acupuncture school

it would be constantly educating my patients to understand the process.

Concerning marketing, making a $100K a year is a valid attempt in giving tools

to acupuncturist to market themselves in a very competitive field of healthcare.

I feel Bob Flaws has his heart in the right place, but because of the immense

amount of time and energy and dedication understanding chinese medicine we

inherently feel blighted by the fact that we not only have to understand the

process but we have to sell it with little support from the established medical

community. I suspect that this is where our love and dedication comes in. The

love of practicing chinese medicine and helping people obtain tools and

knowledge. But with all this, why can't we do more? Why can we get to more?

When will be accepted? Because many of my patients come to me as the cure of

last resort. After surgery, after years of drug use, you know the scene. And

we all know what could have been done if they had come to us first.

K Kochek

-

Monday, November 17, 2003 3:42 AM

Re: Statistics

, " Kurt Kochek " <earthmed@m...>

wrote:

I don't see us isolated as a profession, but parallel to a whole movement that

is

gradually gaining momentum.

I wish I could agree but the rise of the SUV and the epidemic of obesity and

the war mongering have me really doubting that America is on the path of

redemption. I feel like we saw a blip of interest in alternative health

peaking

a little while ago, which has now actually dipped (partly, I believe, because

the

research has lagged). Meat and tobacco consumption are both fashionable

again as an example of this trend. I think we either need to infiltrate the

mainstream healthcare system and lock in our gains, so to speak or we will be

marginalized. There will be a small group of the faithful in any era, but I

see

no evidence that middle america is leaving the couch anytime soon.

Todd

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

November 17, 2003

By the way, if you are interested in a real eye opener regarding the how's and

why's of marketing in America the layman's jargon, try reading these two books:

Fast Food Nation and Culture Jam. They will give you some insight as to the

processes they use to hook new consumers in at younger and younger ages. A lot

of the marketing you see now was successfully developed by McDonald's and

Disney. The rest just followed their leads and eventually have improved on

them. Profit at all cost will have an all new meaning to you after reading

these books.

K Kochek

-

Monday, November 17, 2003 3:42 AM

Re: Statistics

, " Kurt Kochek " <earthmed@m...>

wrote:

I don't see us isolated as a profession, but parallel to a whole movement that

is

gradually gaining momentum.

I wish I could agree but the rise of the SUV and the epidemic of obesity and

the war mongering have me really doubting that America is on the path of

redemption. I feel like we saw a blip of interest in alternative health

peaking

a little while ago, which has now actually dipped (partly, I believe, because

the

research has lagged). Meat and tobacco consumption are both fashionable

again as an example of this trend. I think we either need to infiltrate the

mainstream healthcare system and lock in our gains, so to speak or we will be

marginalized. There will be a small group of the faithful in any era, but I

see

no evidence that middle america is leaving the couch anytime soon.

Todd

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

November 17, 2003

Acupuncture treatment is the endogenous endorphins of the people.

-Wainwright

I absolutely love it!

Emmanuel Segmen

November 17, 2003

Jason

Easy, Big Guy. I learned to function like an accountant and only pay for major

medical insurance and pay for all the rest out of pocket. My major medical just

recently doubled in price, and yes Jason I may have to drop it. Yes, Jason, I

do rely and have relied on acupuncture for my main healthcare since I broke my

back in 1976. I looked at Western medicine for help and didn't like what I saw.

I also couldn't afford it. So I thank God for CM and Dr. Kang's tui na.

Overcoming a fractured vertebra and disc damage is a lot to ask of a paradigm

that I wasn't born into or that familiar with. But I'm running forest trails

and marathons today at 55 years of age, so I guess CM works well enough.

I'm sorry you are outraged by my suggestion that CM makes sense for those who

like me can't afford or wish not to pay for WM health insurance. I worked on a

project a couple of years ago with the notorious Howard Harrison to get public

funding to put LAcs into Central Valley healthcare clinics that are California

Community Clinics. He hired me in 1988 to do that for ACTCM, and I joined him

to try again on a larger scale. Like many things that Howard brainstorms, this

one did not work out. Year 2000 happened, Art Torres of the Democratic Party

was less forthcoming with funds, and the rest is history. The Fruitvale Clinic

in Oakland did get some benefit, but our grand scheme did not work out. I still

think it's a great idea.

At any rate, I'm personally willing to pay Nam Singh for classes and have him

come to my public institution to teach. My students are mostly poor African

American and Hispanic students from Oakland's flatlands. If I can't pay for

health insurance, it's clear that they can't. Merritt College is the home of

the Black Panthers, and everyone who works there takes on the volunteer spirit

of trying to make things work for the poorer communities in Oakland. It's with

that spirit that I've sent students to various CM practitioners as well as to

the Oakland and San Francisco schools of CM. These people can afford CM far

easier than they can afford WM ... especially considering that they can't afford

WM at all. They're poor, Jason. Flat out poor. For very little money they can

get at least some guidance, a bit of acupuncture ... and raw herbs are pretty

cheap compared to prescription medicine.

This is not an argument to your views, Jason. This is just what's happening

where I am ... where I work and live. I never had healthcare insurance even

when I was a medical student in the 1980s. I had to rely on CM. I've only

recently since 1992 had even major medical (not complete health insurance), and

now it looks like I'll be giving that up. There's no way I can budget for it.

But then ... is your post really about people " beating down your door " ? Or

finding a reliable alternative to pricey healthcare?