Black Cumin (Nigella sativa) ** Dermal Use

[Guest guest]

At 11:40 AM 1/27/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>Hi Anya,

>

>Your input is appreciated .. but I must comment to ensure that those who

>might not take the time to follow through and check out the URLs below,

>URLs that may appear to be informative .. are not misinformed on safety

>aspects for dermal application .. which is the discussion at hand. The

>URLs listed below are informative but they have not one thing to do with

>dermal use of Nigella sativa .. nor do they provide any information or

>even suggestion of it being harmful .. they just contain a lot of info.

 

OK, let's go through them....

 

>> Butch, Asira

>> You might want to reconsider using BC oil topically...

>

>When I see some credible information to support it being harmful, I'll

>not only reconsider its use .. but reconsider selling it at all .. but

>I'm sure that is never going to be the case. Nigella sativa is an oil I

>have given a lot of time and effort checking with some real experts on

>Nigella, none of which live in the West, for the last seven years.

 

I've consumed a lot of nigella oil over the year, as have thousands, if not

a million people (mostly in the Middle East), but you have to admit that

research is just starting on it. Heck, I had a German grandmother who

couldn't digest corn, and corn isn't toxic, but that wouldn't stop me from

reading up on how it does produce GI upsets in some people. It's the

weakest/most vulnerable of our population, those with specific

sensitivities we have to look out for.

 

And the word 'harmful', as you wrote it, Butch, is much too strong, implies

real danger, at least to me -- I was talking about contact dermatitis,

which can cause a skin problem, but is not harmful, which, to me, would be

like taking a teaspoon of Eucalyptus oil internally :-)

 

Just so we get out rashes and life-threatening sematics straight...LOL

>

>So .. below are my personal opinions on the URLs presented .. and I'd

>welcome different opinions on this.

>

>http://www.heilkun.de/science/1997/9197967.htm

>

>This URL has no substance .. its but a heading and PERHAPS a report of

>one male having experienced contact dermatitis from the plant or oil

>that is the title of the page .. Nigella sativa. But it seems generic

>and the last two categories are Plant Extracts and Oils, Volatile ..

>which in the case of Nigella .. its the former .. so I miss the value.

 

True, the URL doesn't contain an abstract, and it is the seminal report on

contact dermatitis from Nigella (1997), but there is a subsequent report by

other researchers in 2002:

 

http://tinyurl.com/4y8n

 

If you miss the value of the first study, perhaps it is a good reason to

follow up, maybe I'll write them for the full report, since some may find

the categories ambiguous. It is good to clear up any confusion, IMO. The

second study says it was in an ointment form, again, maybe needing

clarificaiton.

 

>

>http://www.egora.fr/Tox-In/TOXIANGL/PROTOCOL/PLANTES/INDEXDER/INDEXJN.HTM

>

>This one .. it has even less meaning to me. Its but a laundry list of

>plants that are supposed to have been " Responsible " for skin reactions.

>Covering plants J through N .. and I see it starts with Jasmine and then

>Lavender and works down from there. But when one clicks on one of the

>reactions .. the same generic description of the reaction pops up.

 

I thought that page was very relevant. I, myself, suffered a severe

dermatitis from neat J. sambac and J. officinale oils about 25 years ago --

before we knew about not applying them neat. I had never had a reaction to

anything before that. Red, hot bumpy inner wrists that itched for hours.

Damn straight jasmine is an allergen. Lavender, too. Ask any of the AT

people who are sensitized now. Generic description or not, it isa very

valid site -- as an ethnobotanist, I recognize every plant on there as a

potential allergen/sensitizer. Yes, lettuce sap can cause hives, yes,

levisticum can cause photodermatitis, and nerium and the other can cause

contact dermatitis, and nigella is on that list.

 

>If we click to the Main Page of this URL .. we find an index of plants

>and a laundry list of possible problems .. again, very generic and one

>that can be found in most any novel on AT or EOs .. and when we click on

>Plants and Dermatitis we go to Plant Induced Skin Reactions and find the

>biggest CYA statement yet .. a statement that is very elementary and has

>very little meaning, " Skin reactions may occur after direct or indirect

>contact with the plant or plant extract (cosmetics etc..) " Such a CYA

>statement can be made for ANY plant known to mankind .. bar NONE!

 

I don't see it as a CYA statement. The boom is using plant extracts in

cosmetics has caused a rise in dermatitis and skin problems, well

documented in derm publications.

 

Funny you mention the 'AT novels', as I find them blithely remiss in

pointing out dermatitis problems. As a woman who is very active on some

cosmetics lists, I read on a daily basis about the skin eruptions, peeling,

rashes, etc., induced by trying new cosmetics. Many of these go on ignored

by the FDA.

 

 

>Without knowing what this is .. what this list means and what they are

>trying to tell us other than " It's possible for some folks to have skin

>reactions to some plants sometimes " .. which is how I read it .. then I

>don't see where this should make folks want to reconsider using Nigella.

 

I personally like the fact that the list is trying to tell people that it's

possible for some folks to have skin reactions to some plants sometimes --

I think that's valuable, as most people, *especially* in the AT and herb

communities are just too, too eager to jump on the latest trend, or use

themselves as guinea pigs.

 

As far as the 'reconsider using nigella', read below.

 

>http://www.caravanetresor.com/holy_pharmacy.htm

>

>This Commercial URL is rather interesting. And its a marketing gimick.

>I see under Black Cumin (they mispelled Cumin) where .. " At least one

>case of dermatitis has been reported from contact with the oil of black

>cummin.(22) " ..

 

snipped a bit for brevity. I think it's good that a commercial site found

one of the two studies and properly credited the study -- something usually

not found in AT, eh?

 

years ago, allergies to shellfish (or the fact that one binge eating of

shellfish could trigger a lifetime sensitization) were practically unknown.

Who knew about peanut allergies years ago? Now warnings are on all

peanut-containg products, and stuff is recalled if it is found they may be

manufactured n a plant that contains peanuts.

 

Of course, no one is saying nigella oil is as sensitizing (or harmful) as

peanuts to a portion of the population, but, again, who knew about lavender

sensitization a few years ago? Who wrote about it? Many people who have a

bad reaction don't report it to the doctors, thus a study isn't 'triggered'.

 

>Click on Olive Oil .. you'll see their misinformation on production and

>refinement. I read this as I read the Young Living advertisements ..

>our EO are finer than others because humma-humma and schuffle-schuffle.

 

Hey, I found a contact dermatitis abstract about olive oil causing contact

dermatitis being used in a massage! LOL

 

>Click on Black Seed .. and it takes you to Sweet Sunnah. Understand

>that this is an Islamic site .. and it will only take you to Islamic

>sellers. I know the lady who runs Sweet Sunnah .. name is Nurah .. and

>a nice lady she is. Her products are quality products. But .. that's

>not the point of my tit-for-tat in our Devil's Advocate play here. ;-p

 

You know all this has me craving BC oil :-)

Just maybe not on my skin, which is very sensitive and prone to go 'ouch'

with a lot of products. Why keep using myself as a guinea pig? No way, Jose.

 

>

>http://strimbeck.faculty.jsc.vsc.edu/FamilyPages/Ranunculaceae/Ranunculacea

e.htm

>

>This URL discusses the Family Ranunculaceae .. which by the way .. is a

>Genus of OVER 400 species of annuals, biennals, and mainly decidous,

>sometimes evergreen, perennials. Its commonly called the Buttercup or

>Crowfoot Family .. generally plants of this Family are found around the

>Northern Hemisphere of the planet.

>

>Nigella is one of those over 400 species. But I doubt if I can find ONE

>Family of plants in existence that does not have some dangerous species

 

As someone who is very, very susceptible to Ranunculaceae sap, I vote for

caution. Many people are allergic to this, you know, Butch? I remember back

in '76, I picked some rancunculus from my front yard, and accidently got

some sap on my upper lip. Peeling, redness, soreness, lasted over a month,

with derm treatment! The family is known for harmful effects,s o I vote

with the warning, there, too.

 

>If I want to use URLs are references .. I can add:

>

>http://www.slip.net/~mcdavis/dbas9697/98638377.htm Against Cancer

>

>http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/nigella.html Many Valuable Uses

>

>http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/f/fenflo04.html Mrs. Grieve

>

>http://fisher.bio.umb.edu/pages/fatimah/fatimah.htm

>This one has some fair info .. recommend you click on Conclusions

>

>http://www.botany.com/nigella.html

>The old fall-back on it Botany.com

 

I never said that the oil didn't have wonderful properties :-) Internally.

I found way more citations from reputable medical sources than you have

cited here, Butch. Medscape is chock full of them.

 

I was only responding to the lady who said she wanted to use it on her

face, and your comment that ladies in Turkey do. I just did a quickie

search and came up with some red flags on skin use, nothing more. As I

said, I've used it in the past, as I was turned on to it many years ago by

ME friends. Hey, I sprinkle sumac on a lot of food, try explaing that to

North Americans who only know " Poison Sumac " :-)

 

 

>My vigor in presenting the other side to this subject is not due to me

>wanting to be a disagreeable rascal .. but rather it has to do with my

>credibility .. that is important to me. If I am suggesting folks use an

>oil on their skin that is harmful, then I'm just another Gary Young.

 

Not unless you're selling it at wildly inflated prices, forcing them to go

MLM, and dripping the EO (not the fixed oil) on a newborn infant's spine!

hee hee

 

>

>The main point is .. Nigella sativa is NOT a known irritant, NOT an oil

>that commonly causes contact dermatitis .. anymore than is Lavender, and

>it is NOT an oil that is known to cause sensitization .. in fact, I've

>never heard of anyone having a negative experience with Nigella sativa

>and it is a plant that has been cultivated and used in this part of the

>world for thousands or years .. and still commonly in use today.

 

Aakkk -- the evil lavender, sensitizer of those who use it on open wounds,

neet, like it was water :-)

 

I would like to stop for a minute here to make a point. I brought up the EO

of Nigella a paragraph back. I was surprised when I did a websearch and

came up with many, many more sites selling that than are selling the fixed

oil.

 

I'm sure it is used in perfumery, but the AT sites selling it, especially

since there have been *no* safety studies done on it, are typical of the

irresponsibilty in the AT industry. What is to say some newbie won't

confuse the two? It's happened before, it'll happen again, sadly.

 

We can't police the world, we can just try to share information amongst

ourselves, and get the word out in whatever way we can -- talking to

friends, customers, the media, writing a book, putting up informative

websites, etc.

 

>

>To say that we should reconsider might be wise except that we are all in

>the game of using plant extracts .. so we need to identify those that

>are harmful vs those that someone, sometime, has had a problem with. I

>see this as no different than saying we should reconsider air travel as

>its a known fact that some folks have died while riding airplanes.

 

Well, c'mon Butch, you're stretching it a bit here. To use logic,

sometimes, people have to fly by airplane to get somewhere. Nobody *has* to

use a substance on their skin.

 

>If someone can show me that Nigella sativa is an oil that folks should

>be wary of using dermally, I will stop offering it. But I believe that

>there is no such information available in the entire world.

 

Too bad some main producer of the oil won't fund a study -- because, with

those two studies, I'm the type to believe " where there's smoke, there's

fire. "

 

>

>IF folks want to have at their fingertips the ONLY reference manual I'm

>aware of showing scientifically tested safe levels of dilution of oils

>regarding irritation, photo-sensitization, sensitization and toxicity,

>that safety manual is " Plant Aromatics " . This is a compilation of data

>researched over many years by Martin Watt, Cert. Phyt. Medical Herbalist

> & Essential Oil Educator. The primary source of this research was the

>RIFM. (Research Institute for Fragrance Materials) and their sister

>organisation the IFRA. (International Fragrance Research Association).

 

Agreed, martin's book is the best, and he agrees with you " only one study

shows a problem " . That's before I write him and let him know of the second

study later today :-)

 

Also, not knocking the two sources for his book you cite, but there are

many other citations from medical sources, too.

>

>I will say that Nigella sativa is not mentioned in Plant Aromatics ..

>and I can only assume that's because there have never been any known

>problems with it .. so it was not tested. Its not a volatile oil but it

>is used in cosmetics .. so it would be of interest to the RIFM/IFRA.

 

Again, there is a volatile oil of it being sold on AT sites, something to

consider now....

 

Phew. Oh, here are the two studies, although admittedly, you'll probalby

have to write to the sources for the reports:

http://tinyurl.com/4y8n

http://tinyurl.com/4y8k

 

And I agree, everyone should buy Martin's book, from you, you ol' monopoly

you! :-)

And, take Martin's course, which everyone I know who has taken it says it's

the absolute best on the planet...http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

©

[Guest guest]

Hi Anya,

 

Your input is appreciated .. but I must comment to ensure that those who

might not take the time to follow through and check out the URLs below,

URLs that may appear to be informative .. are not misinformed on safety

aspects for dermal application .. which is the discussion at hand. The

URLs listed below are informative but they have not one thing to do with

dermal use of Nigella sativa .. nor do they provide any information or

even suggestion of it being harmful .. they just contain a lot of info.

 

> Butch, Asira

> You might want to reconsider using BC oil topically...

 

When I see some credible information to support it being harmful, I'll

not only reconsider its use .. but reconsider selling it at all .. but

I'm sure that is never going to be the case. Nigella sativa is an oil I

have given a lot of time and effort checking with some real experts on

Nigella, none of which live in the West, for the last seven years.

 

So .. below are my personal opinions on the URLs presented .. and I'd

welcome different opinions on this.

 

http://www.heilkun.de/science/1997/9197967.htm

 

This URL has no substance .. its but a heading and PERHAPS a report of

one male having experienced contact dermatitis from the plant or oil

that is the title of the page .. Nigella sativa. But it seems generic

and the last two categories are Plant Extracts and Oils, Volatile ..

which in the case of Nigella .. its the former .. so I miss the value.

 

http://www.egora.fr/Tox-In/TOXIANGL/PROTOCOL/PLANTES/INDEXDER/INDEXJN.HTM

 

This one .. it has even less meaning to me. Its but a laundry list of

plants that are supposed to have been " Responsible " for skin reactions.

Covering plants J through N .. and I see it starts with Jasmine and then

Lavender and works down from there. But when one clicks on one of the

reactions .. the same generic description of the reaction pops up.

 

If we click to the Main Page of this URL .. we find an index of plants

and a laundry list of possible problems .. again, very generic and one

that can be found in most any novel on AT or EOs .. and when we click on

Plants and Dermatitis we go to Plant Induced Skin Reactions and find the

biggest CYA statement yet .. a statement that is very elementary and has

very little meaning, " Skin reactions may occur after direct or indirect

contact with the plant or plant extract (cosmetics etc..) " Such a CYA

statement can be made for ANY plant known to mankind .. bar NONE!

 

Without knowing what this is .. what this list means and what they are

trying to tell us other than " It's possible for some folks to have skin

reactions to some plants sometimes " .. which is how I read it .. then I

don't see where this should make folks want to reconsider using Nigella.

 

http://www.caravanetresor.com/holy_pharmacy.htm

 

This Commercial URL is rather interesting. And its a marketing gimick.

I see under Black Cumin (they mispelled Cumin) where .. " At least one

case of dermatitis has been reported from contact with the oil of black

cummin.(22) " .. and that's nice info .. but I don't see where it would

be sufficient to cause folks to reconsider dermal use of the oil because

there is not ONE PLANT or ONE OIL in existence that has not caused SOME

PEOPLE with sensitive skin to experience contact dermatitis .. or some

form of irritation. Even touching many berries or shellfish or commonly

eaten foods can do this .. and some folks are allergic .. which is to me

as good a word as we can use to describe why 1 in 10,000 folks have a

problem with a particular substance .. to life in general. But there is

no data to be found ANYWHERE here that lists Nigella sativa as a common

irritant .. or as an oil that commonly causes contact dermatitus .. and

it is NOT a known sensitizer.

 

Click on Olive Oil .. you'll see their misinformation on production and

refinement. I read this as I read the Young Living advertisements ..

our EO are finer than others because humma-humma and schuffle-schuffle.

 

Click on Black Seed .. and it takes you to Sweet Sunnah. Understand

that this is an Islamic site .. and it will only take you to Islamic

sellers. I know the lady who runs Sweet Sunnah .. name is Nurah .. and

a nice lady she is. Her products are quality products. But .. that's

not the point of my tit-for-tat in our Devil's Advocate play here. ;-p

 

http://strimbeck.faculty.jsc.vsc.edu/FamilyPages/Ranunculaceae/Ranunculaceae.htm

 

This URL discusses the Family Ranunculaceae .. which by the way .. is a

Genus of OVER 400 species of annuals, biennals, and mainly decidous,

sometimes evergreen, perennials. Its commonly called the Buttercup or

Crowfoot Family .. generally plants of this Family are found around the

Northern Hemisphere of the planet.

 

Nigella is one of those over 400 species. But I doubt if I can find ONE

Family of plants in existence that does not have some dangerous species

as well as some valuable therapeutic species. And we don't have to look

for Families with 400 members to find this .. we can find it in Families

with but 25 members .. like Mentha .. the Mints. And many others.

 

If I want to use URLs are references .. I can add:

 

http://www.slip.net/~mcdavis/dbas9697/98638377.htm Against Cancer

 

http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/nigella.html Many Valuable Uses

 

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/f/fenflo04.html Mrs. Grieve

 

http://fisher.bio.umb.edu/pages/fatimah/fatimah.htm

This one has some fair info .. recommend you click on Conclusions

 

http://www.botany.com/nigella.html

The old fall-back on it Botany.com

 

My vigor in presenting the other side to this subject is not due to me

wanting to be a disagreeable rascal .. but rather it has to do with my

credibility .. that is important to me. If I am suggesting folks use an

oil on their skin that is harmful, then I'm just another Gary Young.

 

The main point is .. Nigella sativa is NOT a known irritant, NOT an oil

that commonly causes contact dermatitis .. anymore than is Lavender, and

it is NOT an oil that is known to cause sensitization .. in fact, I've

never heard of anyone having a negative experience with Nigella sativa

and it is a plant that has been cultivated and used in this part of the

world for thousands or years .. and still commonly in use today.

 

To say that we should reconsider might be wise except that we are all in

the game of using plant extracts .. so we need to identify those that

are harmful vs those that someone, sometime, has had a problem with. I

see this as no different than saying we should reconsider air travel as

its a known fact that some folks have died while riding airplanes.

 

I AM NOT cavalier when it comes to safe use of essential oils. I don't

sell ONE essential oil that is a known sensitizer or irritant. After a

few years of resistence in the face of demands, I did agree to offer

Bergamot .. and I offer safety information to every buyer .. same as I

do with the very helpful but very toxic Pennyroyal .. a plant that has

far more benefits than danger .. we just don't ingest it.

 

If someone can show me that Nigella sativa is an oil that folks should

be wary of using dermally, I will stop offering it. But I believe that

there is no such information available in the entire world.

 

IF folks want to have at their fingertips the ONLY reference manual I'm

aware of showing scientifically tested safe levels of dilution of oils

regarding irritation, photo-sensitization, sensitization and toxicity,

that safety manual is " Plant Aromatics " . This is a compilation of data

researched over many years by Martin Watt, Cert. Phyt. Medical Herbalist

& Essential Oil Educator. The primary source of this research was the

RIFM. (Research Institute for Fragrance Materials) and their sister

organisation the IFRA. (International Fragrance Research Association).

 

I will say that Nigella sativa is not mentioned in Plant Aromatics ..

and I can only assume that's because there have never been any known

problems with it .. so it was not tested. Its not a volatile oil but it

is used in cosmetics .. so it would be of interest to the RIFM/IFRA.

 

The old edition of Plant Aromatics was $75 .. I have published the new,

revised edition and offer it for $43.90 .. it can now be seen/ordered at

URL http://www.av-at.com/plantaromaticsavnp.html

 

This is NOT an advertisement .. its a public service announcement. Why

not an advertisement? Because there is no competition, therefore, you

need to know the only source to obtain it in North and South America.

 

> Anya

> http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

> ©

 

Y'all keep smiling, Butch http://www.AV-AT.com