Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 ..Butch, Good information for all of us. Thanks for passing this on. : ) Sandi > > Now .. don't believe everything I wrote .. ;-p But believe this: > > Rose Geranium (Bourbon) ... P graveolens or P. x asperum; P. roseum .. > over 250 species with thousands of varieties and clones. No precise > botanical nomenclature for commercial sources .. meaning, what I have > told you is useless but I ain't writing no book on it. ;-) > > > Thanks all, > > Carmen > > Welcome you are. If I can confuse y'all again, just holler .. ;-P > > > p.s. I suppose an introduction is in order. Natural soapmaker > > delving into essential oils and their therapeutic values and benefits. > > I see aromatherapy in my future, too. > > Good show .. if you can learn aromatherapy from the right folks - if > not, then don't feel too bad or alone cause you'll be with the masses. > A reference book contains references .. but references to previously > published books that contain no references does not make a reference > book - it makes a novel. Most aromatherapy teachers use the novels as > a basis for the continuation of misinformation, disinformation, urban > rumor .. and worse yet, plain old greedy marketing hype .. :-( > > Y'all keep smiling, Butch http://www.AV-AT.com > > > How To Make Rose Petal Jam - Step By Step Instructions > http://www.av-at.com/stuff/rosejam.html > > To Un send a blank e-mail to: - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2002 Report Share Posted March 22, 2002 A book I have been enjoying is called; " The Complete Guide To Aromatherapy " by Salvedore Battaglia. He is throrough and explains this pretty well ..in my oppinion.. I have Sylla's journals and they are excellent but I have to say I turn to Salvedore more often these days. take care and bundle up it is so bitter cold out there today! ana http://www.anastasiasideas.com shea butter, rhassoul, handmade paper and more! -- In , Butch Owen <butchbsi@s...> wrote: > Hey Carmen, > > Welcome aboard .. this is a super-nice group of folks. Got a couple of > ornary ones too .. me being one of them .. ;-p > > > First post to the group, please be gentle. I have been reading > > Valerie Worwood's book The Complete Book of Essential Oils and > > Aromatherapy. At the same time I'm compiling a collection of EOs from > > various sources. I need to add geranium at this point. > > If you are using Worwood's book to try to compile a collection of info > on EOs, you got a rough job cut out for you .. especially when it comes > to the Geraniums or Pelargoniums .. fact is, I think somewhere she even > lists Geranium as a mineral .. ;-) And she rarely discusses species or > types of the P. graveolens. > > > Question: could you please differentiate between geranium EO and rose > > geranium EO, or at least point me in the right direction. > > The right direction now is Sylla Shepherd-Hanger's Aromatherapy > Practitioner Reference Manual in two volumes .. you can see it and order > it at http://www.AV-AT.com/manual01.html > > Also .. come late May, I will have available in the USA the finest set > of Monographs in existence .. Martin Watt's work. Just wait .. ;-p > > In the meantime .. and first of all .. true geraniums STINK .. real bad > they stink. But we are not talking about oils from real geraniums. > > I'm not gonna quote a buncha aromatherapy novels because they are at > best contradictory and at worst full of bovine excrement. For sure, I > am gonna avoid Worwood's book. > > The best three ways to identify the Rose Geranium is with the nose, with > a GC .. and the price. Pure, unadulterated, high-quality Rose Scented > Geranium is gonna be more costly than normal Pelargonium graveolens. > > They are both the same species .. Pelargonium .. but there are MANY > different aromas from the geranium plants .. has to do with chemical > composition. What we call " Rose Geranium " is just that .. smells more > rosey and less green .. but its Pelargoneum graveolens. But type > Pelargoneum roseum .. rose scented geranium. It'll be higher in: > > Limonene > Trans-rose oxide > Linalool > Phenyl ethyl alcohol > > Finally .. and more importantly, it'll be higher in Geraniol. > > Now .. lemme tell you why you and me and the chemists are NEVER gonna be > real experts on this plant or oil .. there are some who think they are > but they are only experts when they are around people who know little > about the subject .. ;-P > > An old text from Guenther: > > Introduction, Botany, and Development. The taxonomy of the plants which > are cultivated in various parts of the world for the production of > commercial geranium oil has been a matter of much controversy and has > given rise to considerable confusion. In fact, the name geranium oil > itself is a misnomer, since the commercial types of geranium oil are > derived not from any Geranium, but from several species, varieties, and > strains of Pelargonium. P graveolens, P roseum, P radula, P capitatum, P > odoratissimum, P fragrans, and P terebinthinaceum have been stated as > the source of geranium oil According to Beckley,1 it is questionable > whether some of these terms are not fancy horticultural names, with no > real botanical meaning. > > Neither the true P odoratissimum nor P fragrans is suitable for > cultivation for the purpose of oil production. The former consists of a > mass of radical leaves with a few long, trailing, flowering branches, > possessing a most unattractive odor. P fragrans is a small, bushy shrub > of pleasant odor, but the odor differs from that of geranium oil. The > term P roseum is most probably a garden name for P graveolens and P > radula types. > > The Pelargonium plants readily cross, and soon after their introduction > into Europe so many hybrids were developed that today the numerous > existing varieties and strains can hardly be distinguished from one > another. > > 'Geranium " has now become a rather vague horticultural term which has no > relation to the botanical term Geranium, The only true Geranium species, > from which an essential oil is derived (and in very small quantities) , > is G macrorrhizum L. (G lugubre Salisb., Robertium macrorrhizum Picard). > The latter grows wild in Bulgaria and other Balkan countries and is > occasionally used for the distillation of an oil said to be employed for > the adulteration of rose oil (cf. the monograph on " Oil of Geranium > macrorrhizum " ). > > The only region in which Pelargonium grows wild is the Cape Province > (Union of South Africa). According to Holmes,2 there are about 600 > species of the genus Pelargonium in the Cape Province, many of which > possess an agreeable odor. During the last years of the seventeenth > century 1690),cuttings were exported to Europe (particularly to Kew > Gardens in England), where they were crossed and hybridized in botanical > institutes, greenhouses. and private gardens. It seems probable that all > the species and varieties of Pelargonium, which yield the various types > of commercial geranium oils i.e.. the Réunion, Algerian, Moroccan, > Belgian Congo, Spanish, French, Corsican, and East African oils) are > descendants of the hybrids created in Europe and re-exported, > particularly from Southern France, to the colonies. > > The theory of hybridization would explain the difficulty of germinating > the seeds of the Pelargonium plants. Moreover, when germination is > actually attained, the new plants do not grow true to their parent > plants, but develop into " sports.' or different varieties. For this > reason commercial propagation of Pelargonium is now effected by > means of cuttings. > > The parent plant of all Pelorgium varieties and strains used today for > the commercial production of geranium oil seems to be P graveolens Ait. > For the sake of simplicity we shall refer to the essential oil derived > from this plant simply as oil of geranium, the name by which it has been > known to the trade for many years. > > Owing to its agreeable and very pronounced strong rose-like odor, oil of > geranium is one of the most important ingredients in perfumery. If pure, > the oil is almost a perfume by itself and blends well into all kinds of > scents floral as well as oriental. Being stable and lasting, even in a > slightly alkaline medium, the oil is widely used in the scouting of > soaps. > > Because of its importance many attempts have heen made to produce > geranium oil in various parts or the world, but not all of those have > been successful. > > Commercial production of the oil from plantations was started in the > Grasse region of Southern France, during the first decade to the > nineteenth century. In 1847 plants were exported from there to newly > conquered Algeria, and slowly a new geranium oil industry developed in > the fertile plain of Mitidjia. About 1880, plants from the Grasse > region were transferred to the island of Reunion in the southwestern > Indian Ocean whence the bulk of geranium oil originates today. Small > quantitre have been produced in Spain, Corsica, and Madagascar. > > At present, efforts are being made to develop a geranium Oil industry in > Morocco, the Belgian Congo, East Africa, and the southern part of USSR. > Substantial quantities of these oils, more or less of good quality have > reached the world markets, and a few of these types will undoubtedly > attain considerable commercial importance. In recent years great change > have taken place in the geranium oil industry, and production has > gradually shifted from region to region, the changes being caused by the > prices of the oil on the world market and by economic conditions in the > production areas. > > Guenther IV, page 671-672. > Robert E. Krieger Publishing Company, Inc > Krieger Drive > Malabar, Florida 32950 > 1950 > SBN 0-88275-074-7 > > Now .. since then, the Chinese have began to distill a wild growing > Pelargonium graveolens .. but in my opinion, the finest Pelargonium > roseum is from Madagascar. > > But remember .. and you'll remain confused .. ;-p The Rose Geranium is > a variety of scented leaf geranium .. its not a true geranium, its a > Pelargonium. > > Rose Geranium is a P. graveolens or P. roseum. Another fancy smeller is > P. crispum .. Lemon Geranium. We could say that all Rose Geraniums are > geraniums, but not all geraniums are Rose Geraniums .. same applies for > the other sweet smelling geraniums. There are hundreds of fragrant > smelling geraniums .. Pelargoniums .. but NONE of them are from the > genus Geranium. Confused yet? No? Then I failed. ;-p > > When I buy a Pelargonium .. I am looking for chemical constituents and > odor .. that's important enough for me because even the botanists will > sit around and argue about the Pelargonium and Geranium genus. > > What you gotta be careful about in Rose Geranium ... and moreso in Rose > Otto .. is adulteration with Phenyl ethyl alcohol (PEA) .. makes it > smell a lot better. But you can catch it in a GC or GC/MS. > > Feller was passing out samples of a Balkan Rose Otto last year .. I got > one and when I smelled it, first thing I did was gag ... it would knock > a maggot off a gut wagon .. smelled like acetone. I had my friend, Dr. > Professor Baser test it and it was around 67% PEA .. which costs around > $10 a pound. > > Then you got folks trying to pass off Palmarosa (Cymbopogon martinii) as > Rose Geranium .. which isn't a lot different than folks taking advantage > of other folks who get hung up on Common Names and sell Amyris (Amyris > balsamifera) by one of its common names .. West Indian Sandalwood .. or > worse than that, as Santalum album .. it ain't no danged Sandalwood!! > > Ask your supplier questions cause different suppliers use different > terms to designate different things .. and don't be surprised if they > don't know. You can usually tell they don't know when they start to > talk the humma-humma and dance the schuffle-schuffle. Ask if: > > 1. Are they using a common name/synonym for Pelargonium graveolens? > > 2) Do they know that Rose Geranium isa common name for Pelargonium > roseum, which is a distinct variety .. NOT a synonym for Pelargonium > graveolens. > > As for the plants themselves, the scented varieties of pelargoniums will > generally have darker coloured, curled and narrow leaves where the > bitter-smelling Pelargoniums (house or pot plants) gemerally have much > more rounded leaves. > > Now .. don't believe everything I wrote .. ;-p But believe this: > > Rose Geranium (Bourbon) ... P graveolens or P. x asperum; P. roseum .. > over 250 species with thousands of varieties and clones. No precise > botanical nomenclature for commercial sources .. meaning, what I have > told you is useless but I ain't writing no book on it. ;-) > > > Thanks all, > > Carmen > > Welcome you are. If I can confuse y'all again, just holler .. ;-P > > > p.s. I suppose an introduction is in order. Natural soapmaker > > delving into essential oils and their therapeutic values and benefits. > > I see aromatherapy in my future, too. > > Good show .. if you can learn aromatherapy from the right folks - if > not, then don't feel too bad or alone cause you'll be with the masses. > A reference book contains references .. but references to previously > published books that contain no references does not make a reference > book - it makes a novel. Most aromatherapy teachers use the novels as > a basis for the continuation of misinformation, disinformation, urban > rumor .. and worse yet, plain old greedy marketing hype .. :-( > > Y'all keep smiling, Butch http://www.AV-AT.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2002 Report Share Posted March 22, 2002 Hey Carmen, Welcome aboard .. this is a super-nice group of folks. Got a couple of ornary ones too .. me being one of them .. ;-p > First post to the group, please be gentle. I have been reading > Valerie Worwood's book The Complete Book of Essential Oils and > Aromatherapy. At the same time I'm compiling a collection of EOs from > various sources. I need to add geranium at this point. If you are using Worwood's book to try to compile a collection of info on EOs, you got a rough job cut out for you .. especially when it comes to the Geraniums or Pelargoniums .. fact is, I think somewhere she even lists Geranium as a mineral .. ;-) And she rarely discusses species or types of the P. graveolens. > Question: could you please differentiate between geranium EO and rose > geranium EO, or at least point me in the right direction. The right direction now is Sylla Shepherd-Hanger's Aromatherapy Practitioner Reference Manual in two volumes .. you can see it and order it at http://www.AV-AT.com/manual01.html Also .. come late May, I will have available in the USA the finest set of Monographs in existence .. Martin Watt's work. Just wait .. ;-p In the meantime .. and first of all .. true geraniums STINK .. real bad they stink. But we are not talking about oils from real geraniums. I'm not gonna quote a buncha aromatherapy novels because they are at best contradictory and at worst full of bovine excrement. For sure, I am gonna avoid Worwood's book. The best three ways to identify the Rose Geranium is with the nose, with a GC .. and the price. Pure, unadulterated, high-quality Rose Scented Geranium is gonna be more costly than normal Pelargonium graveolens. They are both the same species .. Pelargonium .. but there are MANY different aromas from the geranium plants .. has to do with chemical composition. What we call " Rose Geranium " is just that .. smells more rosey and less green .. but its Pelargoneum graveolens. But type Pelargoneum roseum .. rose scented geranium. It'll be higher in: Limonene Trans-rose oxide Linalool Phenyl ethyl alcohol Finally .. and more importantly, it'll be higher in Geraniol. Now .. lemme tell you why you and me and the chemists are NEVER gonna be real experts on this plant or oil .. there are some who think they are but they are only experts when they are around people who know little about the subject .. ;-P An old text from Guenther: Introduction, Botany, and Development. The taxonomy of the plants which are cultivated in various parts of the world for the production of commercial geranium oil has been a matter of much controversy and has given rise to considerable confusion. In fact, the name geranium oil itself is a misnomer, since the commercial types of geranium oil are derived not from any Geranium, but from several species, varieties, and strains of Pelargonium. P graveolens, P roseum, P radula, P capitatum, P odoratissimum, P fragrans, and P terebinthinaceum have been stated as the source of geranium oil According to Beckley,1 it is questionable whether some of these terms are not fancy horticultural names, with no real botanical meaning. Neither the true P odoratissimum nor P fragrans is suitable for cultivation for the purpose of oil production. The former consists of a mass of radical leaves with a few long, trailing, flowering branches, possessing a most unattractive odor. P fragrans is a small, bushy shrub of pleasant odor, but the odor differs from that of geranium oil. The term P roseum is most probably a garden name for P graveolens and P radula types. The Pelargonium plants readily cross, and soon after their introduction into Europe so many hybrids were developed that today the numerous existing varieties and strains can hardly be distinguished from one another. 'Geranium " has now become a rather vague horticultural term which has no relation to the botanical term Geranium, The only true Geranium species, from which an essential oil is derived (and in very small quantities) , is G macrorrhizum L. (G lugubre Salisb., Robertium macrorrhizum Picard). The latter grows wild in Bulgaria and other Balkan countries and is occasionally used for the distillation of an oil said to be employed for the adulteration of rose oil (cf. the monograph on " Oil of Geranium macrorrhizum " ). The only region in which Pelargonium grows wild is the Cape Province (Union of South Africa). According to Holmes,2 there are about 600 species of the genus Pelargonium in the Cape Province, many of which possess an agreeable odor. During the last years of the seventeenth century 1690),cuttings were exported to Europe (particularly to Kew Gardens in England), where they were crossed and hybridized in botanical institutes, greenhouses. and private gardens. It seems probable that all the species and varieties of Pelargonium, which yield the various types of commercial geranium oils i.e.. the Réunion, Algerian, Moroccan, Belgian Congo, Spanish, French, Corsican, and East African oils) are descendants of the hybrids created in Europe and re-exported, particularly from Southern France, to the colonies. The theory of hybridization would explain the difficulty of germinating the seeds of the Pelargonium plants. Moreover, when germination is actually attained, the new plants do not grow true to their parent plants, but develop into " sports.' or different varieties. For this reason commercial propagation of Pelargonium is now effected by means of cuttings. The parent plant of all Pelorgium varieties and strains used today for the commercial production of geranium oil seems to be P graveolens Ait. For the sake of simplicity we shall refer to the essential oil derived from this plant simply as oil of geranium, the name by which it has been known to the trade for many years. Owing to its agreeable and very pronounced strong rose-like odor, oil of geranium is one of the most important ingredients in perfumery. If pure, the oil is almost a perfume by itself and blends well into all kinds of scents floral as well as oriental. Being stable and lasting, even in a slightly alkaline medium, the oil is widely used in the scouting of soaps. Because of its importance many attempts have heen made to produce geranium oil in various parts or the world, but not all of those have been successful. Commercial production of the oil from plantations was started in the Grasse region of Southern France, during the first decade to the nineteenth century. In 1847 plants were exported from there to newly conquered Algeria, and slowly a new geranium oil industry developed in the fertile plain of Mitidjia. About 1880, plants from the Grasse region were transferred to the island of Reunion in the southwestern Indian Ocean whence the bulk of geranium oil originates today. Small quantitre have been produced in Spain, Corsica, and Madagascar. At present, efforts are being made to develop a geranium Oil industry in Morocco, the Belgian Congo, East Africa, and the southern part of USSR. Substantial quantities of these oils, more or less of good quality have reached the world markets, and a few of these types will undoubtedly attain considerable commercial importance. In recent years great change have taken place in the geranium oil industry, and production has gradually shifted from region to region, the changes being caused by the prices of the oil on the world market and by economic conditions in the production areas. Guenther IV, page 671-672. Robert E. Krieger Publishing Company, Inc Krieger Drive Malabar, Florida 32950 1950 SBN 0-88275-074-7 Now .. since then, the Chinese have began to distill a wild growing Pelargonium graveolens .. but in my opinion, the finest Pelargonium roseum is from Madagascar. But remember .. and you'll remain confused .. ;-p The Rose Geranium is a variety of scented leaf geranium .. its not a true geranium, its a Pelargonium. Rose Geranium is a P. graveolens or P. roseum. Another fancy smeller is P. crispum .. Lemon Geranium. We could say that all Rose Geraniums are geraniums, but not all geraniums are Rose Geraniums .. same applies for the other sweet smelling geraniums. There are hundreds of fragrant smelling geraniums .. Pelargoniums .. but NONE of them are from the genus Geranium. Confused yet? No? Then I failed. ;-p When I buy a Pelargonium .. I am looking for chemical constituents and odor .. that's important enough for me because even the botanists will sit around and argue about the Pelargonium and Geranium genus. What you gotta be careful about in Rose Geranium ... and moreso in Rose Otto .. is adulteration with Phenyl ethyl alcohol (PEA) .. makes it smell a lot better. But you can catch it in a GC or GC/MS. Feller was passing out samples of a Balkan Rose Otto last year .. I got one and when I smelled it, first thing I did was gag ... it would knock a maggot off a gut wagon .. smelled like acetone. I had my friend, Dr. Professor Baser test it and it was around 67% PEA .. which costs around $10 a pound. Then you got folks trying to pass off Palmarosa (Cymbopogon martinii) as Rose Geranium .. which isn't a lot different than folks taking advantage of other folks who get hung up on Common Names and sell Amyris (Amyris balsamifera) by one of its common names .. West Indian Sandalwood .. or worse than that, as Santalum album .. it ain't no danged Sandalwood!! Ask your supplier questions cause different suppliers use different terms to designate different things .. and don't be surprised if they don't know. You can usually tell they don't know when they start to talk the humma-humma and dance the schuffle-schuffle. Ask if: 1. Are they using a common name/synonym for Pelargonium graveolens? 2) Do they know that Rose Geranium isa common name for Pelargonium roseum, which is a distinct variety .. NOT a synonym for Pelargonium graveolens. As for the plants themselves, the scented varieties of pelargoniums will generally have darker coloured, curled and narrow leaves where the bitter-smelling Pelargoniums (house or pot plants) gemerally have much more rounded leaves. Now .. don't believe everything I wrote .. ;-p But believe this: Rose Geranium (Bourbon) ... P graveolens or P. x asperum; P. roseum .. over 250 species with thousands of varieties and clones. No precise botanical nomenclature for commercial sources .. meaning, what I have told you is useless but I ain't writing no book on it. ;-) > Thanks all, > Carmen Welcome you are. If I can confuse y'all again, just holler .. ;-P > p.s. I suppose an introduction is in order. Natural soapmaker > delving into essential oils and their therapeutic values and benefits. > I see aromatherapy in my future, too. Good show .. if you can learn aromatherapy from the right folks - if not, then don't feel too bad or alone cause you'll be with the masses. A reference book contains references .. but references to previously published books that contain no references does not make a reference book - it makes a novel. Most aromatherapy teachers use the novels as a basis for the continuation of misinformation, disinformation, urban rumor .. and worse yet, plain old greedy marketing hype .. :-( Y'all keep smiling, Butch http://www.AV-AT.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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