Emotions and Pulse Diagnosis

[Guest guest]

I take it from the response to what i wrote that many on this list were not

taught to read the pulse to the extent of reading the emotions. Is that true?

If so it points out IMHO another deficiency caused by the emphasis on Didactic

over Clinical training. I find it sad .

 

Doc

 

 

 

" The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,

but because of the people who don't do anything about it. "

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

HI Doc,

 

>

> I take it from the response to what i wrote that many on this list

were not taught to read the pulse to the extent of reading the

emotions. Is that true? If so it points out IMHO another deficiency

caused by the emphasis on Didactic over Clinical training. I find it sad .

 

I like Attilio's take on it:

 

" The field the heart produces is holographic, meaning that you can

read it from any point on the body and from any point within the field

(Mercogliano and Debus 1999). "

 

So, some may be more skillful by reading the pulse, others by reading

the spine or the abdomen (Hara). The main thrust of the article is

that all is a reflection (manifestation) of the Heart (Shen emotions),

so when one reads the pulse one is reading the emotions of the Heart.

I guess what you are suggesting is that not everyone " relates " the

pulse to the emotions of the Heart. This has been my experiences also.

Many practitioners do not want to accept the relationship of " disease "

to the Heart.

 

To add an additional dimension to the question, I am wondering to what

extent does the " interaction " between the practitioner and the client

affect the the " pulse " - since the " touch " itself creates a new event

that is different from an " untouched " client/patient. One practitioner

, lets say with a very heavy, uncaring touch, may " read " something

totally different from one with a very light and sensitive touch. This

has also been my experiences. Certainly it is quite common for

different practitioners to come to a " different diagnosis " . My

hypothesis is because the " interaction " between patient and

practitioner truly is different and manifesting in a different

" response " . Something I have been thinking about and further came to

the surface after reading Attilio's article.

 

As always, all comments are welcome.

 

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

_____

 

Doc [Doc]

Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:02 AM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Emotions and Pulse Diagnosis

 

 

 

 

I take it from the response to what i wrote that many on this list were not

taught to read the pulse to the extent of reading the emotions. Is that

true? If so it points out IMHO another deficiency caused by the emphasis on

Didactic over Clinical training. I find it sad .

 

Doc

 

 

 

[Jason]

 

This may be sad or just intelligent. Personally I had zero training in

reading emotions from the pulse, and all teachers I studied with (Chinese

and Americans) never did this. And now that I think about it, I have never

read anything in Chinese that suggests that this is possible,. Now I am

completely open to the idea that I missed some major dx tool, but as usual

am skeptical.. Maybe you could explain what a fearful pulse is or

something?? I am just unclear how one does this, unless you are totally

talking about 'feeling' the pulse, where some psychic non-tangible

connection is made. If this is the case, then I understand and would like

to hear what kind of training you went through to feel this. Furthermore,

what is the purpose of such, why not just ask them, instead of leading them

down a path? Just curious, could you supply some more information. thanx,

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

I don't think that when your reading the pulse that it is just the Heart

emotion (Shen) which your looking at. All the organs have their relative

emotions which the Heart as the General. I'm particularly interested in the

Liver's emotion, as even though the Heart is the commander of all the

Zangfu, the Liver may be the gateway to our higher soul or states of

consciousness. Hence most drugs that change our consciousness greatly affect

the Liver.

 

If I'm correct, the Heart never really had diseases related to it before

because they were considered to be too serious and death would follow.

Before they were always related to the pericardium. Only in modern times has

the notion of Heart disorders when included in TCM. Please correct me if I'm

wrong.

 

Yes, I agree that different interpretations of patient's body language and

emotions may lead to a slightly different syndrome diagnosis, although only

slight. I don't think practitioners are heavy handed in pulse diagnosis, if

they are, they weren't taught very well and may have a heavy handed approach

only in the beginning of their career. Therefore, it is only temporary and

will pass as perceptions and understanding of TCM diagnosis is advanced.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

04 October 2004 00:04

Chinese Medicine

Re: Emotions and Pulse Diagnosis

 

 

 

HI Doc,

 

>

> I take it from the response to what i wrote that many on this list

were not taught to read the pulse to the extent of reading the

emotions. Is that true? If so it points out IMHO another deficiency

caused by the emphasis on Didactic over Clinical training. I find it sad .

 

I like Attilio's take on it:

 

" The field the heart produces is holographic, meaning that you can

read it from any point on the body and from any point within the field

(Mercogliano and Debus 1999). "

 

So, some may be more skillful by reading the pulse, others by reading

the spine or the abdomen (Hara). The main thrust of the article is

that all is a reflection (manifestation) of the Heart (Shen emotions),

so when one reads the pulse one is reading the emotions of the Heart.

I guess what you are suggesting is that not everyone " relates " the

pulse to the emotions of the Heart. This has been my experiences also.

Many practitioners do not want to accept the relationship of " disease "

to the Heart.

 

To add an additional dimension to the question, I am wondering to what

extent does the " interaction " between the practitioner and the client

affect the the " pulse " - since the " touch " itself creates a new event

that is different from an " untouched " client/patient. One practitioner

, lets say with a very heavy, uncaring touch, may " read " something

totally different from one with a very light and sensitive touch. This

has also been my experiences. Certainly it is quite common for

different practitioners to come to a " different diagnosis " . My

hypothesis is because the " interaction " between patient and

practitioner truly is different and manifesting in a different

" response " . Something I have been thinking about and further came to

the surface after reading Attilio's article.

 

As always, all comments are welcome.

 

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Rich,

>

> I don't think that when your reading the pulse that it is just the >

>Heart emotion (Shen) which your looking at. All the organs have

>their relative emotions which the Heart as the General.

 

Thanks for the clarifications. I believe that the paradoxes of a

holographic universe and a holographic human being (human beings being

a microcosm of the universe) are difficult to ponder and discuss.

 

As you suggested in your article:

 

1) " For example the HT in TCM, " houses " the Shen (mind) and is the

organ that controls all the Zangfu. This is because it also " houses "

the seed or essence of the rest of the Zangfu and the body as a whole. "

 

2) " As Gerber (1996, p. 48-9) points out, the holographic principle

prescribes to the theory that " every pience contains the whole " and

can be seen in the cellular structure of all living bodies. "

 

3) " The field the heart produces is holographic, meaning that you can

read it from any point on the body and from any point within the field

(Mercongliano and Debus 1999) " .

 

So how to make " sense " out of all this. What does it mean to

" control " ? What does it mean for the Heart to be holographic? What

does it mean to be " everywhere " in the body? And when something is

touched, are you not touching the Heart which is everywhere?

 

4) " The emotions and spirits metaphorically trickle down from the

non-physical to the physical cells via the transportation of light. "

(P. 5 of your article).

 

Is it a metaphor or is it the true integration of Chinese medicine and

Western Science. Quantum Mechanics suggests that all matter is

" frozen " as " waves " until it is " observed " and then it manifests into

a physical object. Bohm in his theories suggests an Implicate Universe

(not unlike the Dao) that manfiests when it is Observed (by

Conssciousness).

 

With this line of thought, I believe, it is possible to greatly

simplify . It makes everything One - holographic - and

can be treated as One. I believe this is why my teacher is able to

talk about everything as Warm or Cold Qi without any need to introduce

any other terms in his practice (well maybe " blockages). For him, it

is enough and it appears to be enough.

 

This does not mean that it does not create conceptual paradoxes - it

does. But it does make the practice much easier. Just like Quantum

Mechanics greatly simplies our description of the Universe (i.e.,

everything is born out of quantum probability waves) but at the same

time creates conceptual paradox - i.e. " Everything exists everywhere

(quantum probability waves are infinite in all directions) and does

not come into existence until it is observed. " Well the Dao De Jing

warned us against trying to describe the nature of the universe and

human beings using words. :-)

 

 

>I'm particularly interested in the

> Liver's emotion, as even though the Heart is the commander of all >

>the Zangfu, the Liver may be the gateway to our higher soul or

>states of consciousness. Hence most drugs that change our

>consciousness greatly affect the Liver.

 

Yes, I agree. Looking at the Liver as the gateway to the Soul does

help explain the effects of western drugs and Chinese herbs. There is

however, the paradox of the Heart being everywhere (holographically)

yet manifesting in different forms - Liver, Lung.

 

From " The Effect of Sadness and Other Emotions on the Body " , by Yong

Ping Jiang

(http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2003/jan/01jiang.html)

 

" According to chapter eight of the Ling Shu, the liver often works

with the heart to generate emotions because " that which goes hither

and thither with the spirit is called the soul (hun). " Since the soul

is stored in the liver and the spirit is stored in the heart, these

two organs work together in the process of creating disordered

emotional states. "

 

Since Dr. Kaikobad has apparently spent some time contemplating the

nature of Spirt (Shen) and Soul (Po and Hun), I hope that he may share

his thoughts on this matter.

 

" Yes, I agree that different interpretations of patient's body

language and emotions may lead to a slightly different syndrome

diagnosis, although only slight. "

 

Here my experiences are dramatically different than yours. But I will

leave it up to each individual practitioner and patient to judge for

themselves based upon their own experiences. But, even if I am correct

and there is substantial and irreconcilable issues relating to the

subjectivity and uniqueness of any diagnosis (or an kind of

" measurement " as suggested by Quantum Physicis) I do not believe that

this is an insurmountable problem.

 

My teacher uses a model (not unlike Tom Tam's) where everything is

described as " cold " or " warm " , and " stagnated (damp) " or " flowing " .

This is his model, and he has excellent results. No other terms are

required. No diagnosis is required. Someone else may have an entirely

different model and achieve similar results. Two practitioners may

have an entirely different pulse diagnosis and interpretation and yet

still, within their own model, have excellent results. Does it all

work because of the " holographic " nature of the body?

 

The reasons I adopted by teacher's model is because it is simple,

clear and works. It is very much in line with the ideas that you

present in your paper. But your paper also suggest reasons why other

models also work. That is why your paper intriqued me so. There

appears to be something very " real " about the holographic universe.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

wrote:

 

> Personally I had zero training in

reading emotions from the pulse, and all teachers I studied with (Chinese

and Americans) never did this. And now that I think about it, I have never

read anything in Chinese that suggests that this is possible,. Now I am

completely open to the idea that I missed some major dx tool, but as usual

am skeptical..<

 

In the lineage training /aprenticeship i went through this was emphasized and my

reading within the classics included this matrial. (though it would take one of

the actual scholars on the list to make citations since i do not think in this

way)

 

>Maybe you could explain what a fearful pulse is or

something?? <

 

In words on an elist no. If you were in my clinic i could -as i do daily with

students- put your hand on the pulse and explain it. I am not very good with

words alone.

 

>I am just unclear how one does this, unless you are totally

talking about 'feeling' the pulse, where some psychic non-tangible

connection is made.<

 

I do not think this is psychic but there is a large element of intuition born of

experience to it.

 

>would like

to hear what kind of training you went through to feel this. <

 

In my aprenticeship and since i have taken over 75,000 pulses (that is 75,000+

pt visits)

 

>Furthermore,

what is the purpose of such, why not just ask them,<

 

If patients are in touch with their emotions i do just ask - and then compare

this to the pulse which is often more honest.

Americans tend to be rather disconnected from their emotionality.

 

>instead of leading them

down a path?<

 

Quite an assumption on your part! I take great pains to keep the info clear and

not suggestive. This you would see if we were not in this sterile emotionless

e-environment but in my clinic with a patient.

 

Doc Rosen

 

 

 

 

 

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

 

 

[Guest guest]

In response to the discussion on emotions and pulsing, there is an

excellent book on it:

" Pulses and Impulses " by Graham Townsend & Ysha De Donna. It is

available through

Acuneeds and Chinabooks here " DownUnder " . Have a look if you are at

all interested. It

explains their perspective on it, and their combined clinical

experience and discoveries. It

is their disire to have pulsing introduced as a diagnostic tool to

all different sorts of

practitioners, not just those of TCM. At my College we told a

lecturer/G.P. that a skilled

pulser can determine if someone is pregnant etc. He was blown away

and remarked that

he would be interested in learning or understanding more about it.

Nice!!!

Kind regards,

Martin.

[Guest guest]

Reading emotions on pulse is easy as falling off a chair, and in fact quite

unavoidable.

 

By and large at the substratum of a number of pulse profiles which denote a

zang organ problem, there is an emotion.

 

Emotional pulses don't follow a strict placement, but wander about as qi

levels change.

Some findings I have found common:

 

The Wiry feeling may not be found on a migraine patient, one getting more a

somewhat

Flooded and Full pulse at left guan. You begin to take care of the stagnated

LV, and

are in converse with the patient to any degree, and suddenly a distinct Wiry

appears

at the left chi [not guan] position, which is the patient " feeling " the feel

of anger and rage

heretofore suppressed in the lower warmer, where all such things are stored

away.

 

This Wiry can't be Pain or Cold, these would have registered beforehand. Nor

can this

be the notorious Phlegm, that would be there to begin with, and not in any

hurry to move.

So what remains is Anger, and it's cohort Angst. This is by and large the

civilized, suppressed

anger.

 

Continue to work, and the Wiry is likely to move into the left guan, but

more at the

superficial position rather than deep. This is because the emotion is

transiting.

 

At this stage, depending on the strength of the Wiry, one may confirm what

the person

is feeling.

 

With more work of a minute or two, even this disappears, and a steady Wood

pulse arrives.

 

Another somewhat less common, but more manifest situation is when one works

with

a Weak and Sinking left cun pulse, with symptoms which more pertain to P

rather than

conventional HT, even if it is the HT position.

 

In this case you work with any relevant P point between wrist and elbow, and

by the

nature of the beast, level it out; and you are likely to have a more raised

level to the

pulse, and a filling out to it's normal profile, at the same time have the

person, who

till now has been morose and withdrawn, at times for months, break out into

loud

laughter, guffaws, which can be entertaining, if your office adjoins others,

and the

walls are thin!

 

At times you might find a Grief pulse in the classical sense, with an " edge "

to it, by

it's nature of Metal, which always cuts. Work this, and there maybe torrents

of tears,

and the tenderness at LU 1 and 2 and at left abdomen gone.

 

Once the wave has passed, the person stabilizes, even smiles, and the edge

is

no longer felt.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

I beg your pardon:

 

Correcting a critical word in an earlier post, " right " for " left " abdomen.

Excerpt below:

 

> At times you might find a Grief pulse in the classical sense, with an

> " edge "

> to it, by

> it's nature of Metal, which always cuts. Work this, and there maybe

> torrents

> of tears,

> and the tenderness at LU 1 and 2 and at < left > abdomen gone.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Fascinating. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad "

<aryaone@e...> wrote:

>

> Reading emotions on pulse is easy as falling off a chair, and in

fact quite

> unavoidable.

[Guest guest]

--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto

> Only in modern times has

> the notion of Heart disorders when included in TCM.

 

I don't know if you are talking about this, but

here's a thought:

Cancer is often considered as extreme stasis /

obstruction / depletion, and we hear about cancer

everywhere except in the heart - because the heart,

more than any other organ, has a powerful flow and

movement of qi and blood. My prediction was that if

this whole idea were true then we would begin to see

the advances of heart cancer in recent times, as

people become even sicker due to the malaise of their

lives. And sure enough, heart cancer is just beginning

to appear. how sad...

 

> has also been my experiences. Certainly it is quite

> common for

> different practitioners to come to a " different

> diagnosis " .

 

At the same time this is often due not exactly to a

differing diagnosis so much as a differing treatment

plan. A good diagnosis is all three of identification

of disease, pathology of disease and treatment of

disease - this is one fo the stunning things about CM

diagnosis. Therefore if a practitioner is good with

digestion, their course of treatment will be based on

digestive patterns, whereas someone who is good at

dealing with emotions will have a differing Dx. As

long as it works, eh?

Also, I can't emphasize enough that reality is, as

far as all the evidence indicates, non-linear and

paradoxical. **Practitioners _must_ come to different

diagnoses because all diagnoses are based on

interference on the movement of a wave by another, or

in other words are based on the interplay of

yin-yang**. This leads to my next point:

 

> My

> hypothesis is because the " interaction " between

> patient and

> practitioner truly is different and manifesting in a

> different " response " .

 

This is very true and CAN NEVER BE AVOIDED. Indeed it

is necessary that the interaction / interference occur

for healing to take place. That;s why it's known in CM

that is NOT enough to find a good doctor, but rather

is essential to find a doctor one can trust - in other

words, someone we click and resonate with.

Back to your point - Even if a sage were to be in a

nirvana state, or voided or whatever and took the

pulse...well, why would they take a pulse in the first

place if they're so void, you know? Well, then we can

say something likeif we're not void then at least we

need to be mentally calm and work on reducing our

biases... which is true and helps our mind to be

clearly receptive, but we'll never really get there

until we " break all the way through " . In the meantime

everythign we do will be interpreted via our

experiences, skills and specialties, and as long as

we're honest about that and we are Attentive and

Care-ful while taking the pulse, then we will be

without fault.

The idea, as far as I can tell, is to influence and

interact in a way that is compassionate in order to

allow healing to occur. We can't be compassionate

without influence or by being totally void. Being

totally void is something different from being

compassionate.

 

Thoughts anyone? Sorry about the confusing prose.

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

_________ALL-NEW

Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Hugo,

 

I don't think these are my quotes you used. Please check them again.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

Hugo Ramiro [subincor]

06 October 2004 20:00

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: Emotions and Pulse Diagnosis

 

 

 

--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto

> Only in modern times has

> the notion of Heart disorders when included in TCM.

 

I don't know if you are talking about this, but

here's a thought:

Cancer is often considered as extreme stasis /

obstruction / depletion, and we hear about cancer

everywhere except in the heart - because the heart,

more than any other organ, has a powerful flow and

movement of qi and blood. My prediction was that if

this whole idea were true then we would begin to see

the advances of heart cancer in recent times, as

people become even sicker due to the malaise of their

lives. And sure enough, heart cancer is just beginning

to appear. how sad...

 

> has also been my experiences. Certainly it is quite

> common for

> different practitioners to come to a " different

> diagnosis " .

 

At the same time this is often due not exactly to a

differing diagnosis so much as a differing treatment

plan. A good diagnosis is all three of identification

of disease, pathology of disease and treatment of

disease - this is one fo the stunning things about CM

diagnosis. Therefore if a practitioner is good with

digestion, their course of treatment will be based on

digestive patterns, whereas someone who is good at

dealing with emotions will have a differing Dx. As

long as it works, eh?

Also, I can't emphasize enough that reality is, as

far as all the evidence indicates, non-linear and

paradoxical. **Practitioners _must_ come to different

diagnoses because all diagnoses are based on

interference on the movement of a wave by another, or

in other words are based on the interplay of

yin-yang**. This leads to my next point:

 

> My

> hypothesis is because the " interaction " between

> patient and

> practitioner truly is different and manifesting in a

> different " response " .

 

This is very true and CAN NEVER BE AVOIDED. Indeed it

is necessary that the interaction / interference occur

for healing to take place. That;s why it's known in CM

that is NOT enough to find a good doctor, but rather

is essential to find a doctor one can trust - in other

words, someone we click and resonate with.

Back to your point - Even if a sage were to be in a

nirvana state, or voided or whatever and took the

pulse...well, why would they take a pulse in the first

place if they're so void, you know? Well, then we can

say something likeif we're not void then at least we

need to be mentally calm and work on reducing our

biases... which is true and helps our mind to be

clearly receptive, but we'll never really get there

until we " break all the way through " . In the meantime

everythign we do will be interpreted via our

experiences, skills and specialties, and as long as

we're honest about that and we are Attentive and

Care-ful while taking the pulse, then we will be

without fault.

The idea, as far as I can tell, is to influence and

interact in a way that is compassionate in order to

allow healing to occur. We can't be compassionate

without influence or by being totally void. Being

totally void is something different from being

compassionate.

 

Thoughts anyone? Sorry about the confusing prose.

Hugo

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto

> I don't think these are my quotes you used. Please

> check them again.

 

Hmm. They may be Rich's. Apologies,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_________ALL-NEW

Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Hugo,

 

I think the quotes you were referring to are from a post of mine.

 

> > has also been my experiences. Certainly it is quite

> > common for

> > different practitioners to come to a " different

> > diagnosis " .

>

> At the same time this is often due not exactly to a

> differing diagnosis so much as a differing treatment

> plan.

 

Yes, I agree. There are differences in diagnosis and differences in

treatment plans.

 

> Also, I can't emphasize enough that reality is, as

> far as all the evidence indicates, non-linear and

> paradoxical. **Practitioners _must_ come to different

> diagnoses because all diagnoses are based on

> interference on the movement of a wave by another, or

> in other words are based on the interplay of

> yin-yang**. This leads to my next point:

 

Yes, I think this is fundamental concept. Ultimately, all diagnosis

and treatment plans will be based upon the unique " interaction "

between practitioner and client/patient. The " relative " relationship

between practitioner/client is always unique and therefore suggests a

unique outcome (e.g. diagnosis, treatment plan).

 

>Indeed it

> is necessary that the interaction / interference occur

> for healing to take place. That;s why it's known in CM

> that is NOT enough to find a good doctor, but rather

> is essential to find a doctor one can trust - in other

> words, someone we click and resonate with.

 

I very much agree. I believe, what is called the " placebo effect " is

just an excellent outcome that is the result of " good chemistry "

between practitioner and client/patient.

 

 

> Back to your point - Even if a sage were to be in a

> nirvana state, or voided or whatever and took the

> pulse...well, why would they take a pulse in the first

> place if they're so void, you know?

 

This is true, and doubtedlessly part of the " paradox " . There is the

" Willful Mind (the one with strong Intent and Ego) and there is the

" Awareness Mind " that is just " there " and being Aware. The Yang and

the Yin of the Mind that is turning on itself like the Yin/Yang symbol

suggests.

 

> The idea, as far as I can tell, is to influence and

> interact in a way that is compassionate in order to

> allow healing to occur.

 

Here is where I am trying out something new. Trying to " be there "

(Shen) without my Will (Zhi) trying to influence. It is just something

I am trying out. Maybe others can comment.

 

>We can't be compassionate

> without influence or by being totally void.

 

Maybe we need to be only compassionate to ourselves and let our

client/patients figure this out for themselves. Ultimately, it is up

to them .. I guess.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

Sorry it's taken me some time to get back to you, have been a little busy.

 

I do believe that the holographic (Quantum physics) principle may indeed

explain TCM from a western viewpoint. My paper goes a little way to try and

bring them together although not completely. We'll have to wait for

technology to advance itself where it will be able to test and quantify TCM

from a Quantum viewpoint.

 

The fact that TCM can be both simply as you explain with your teacher and

complex as seen from herbal medicine, perfectly illustrates the beauty of

TCM from a holographic principle. They are opposites, like our famous Yin

and Yang notion, yet they can work together and integrate together like Qi

Gong and herbal medicine and to a lesser extent WM and TCM. For one to be

simply or macroscopic and the other complex at the microscopic shows the

various layers that can be utilised at the Quantum level.

 

That doesn't mean that one is better than the other. They have their own

systems and theory and need to be respected as they are. The goal is the

same but the start point is different, from a different perceptional

abstract. This however is not always the view held in China, where WM is the

King, followed by herbal medicine, then acupuncture, then Tuina, down to Qi

Gong. The viewpoint held in the West is quite different to China.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

04 October 2004 15:30

Chinese Medicine

Re: Emotions and Pulse Diagnosis

 

 

 

 

Hi Attilio,

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Rich,

>

> I don't think that when your reading the pulse that it is just the >

>Heart emotion (Shen) which your looking at. All the organs have

>their relative emotions which the Heart as the General.

 

Thanks for the clarifications. I believe that the paradoxes of a

holographic universe and a holographic human being (human beings being

a microcosm of the universe) are difficult to ponder and discuss.

 

As you suggested in your article:

 

1) " For example the HT in TCM, " houses " the Shen (mind) and is the

organ that controls all the Zangfu. This is because it also " houses "

the seed or essence of the rest of the Zangfu and the body as a whole. "

 

2) " As Gerber (1996, p. 48-9) points out, the holographic principle

prescribes to the theory that " every pience contains the whole " and

can be seen in the cellular structure of all living bodies. "

 

3) " The field the heart produces is holographic, meaning that you can

read it from any point on the body and from any point within the field

(Mercongliano and Debus 1999) " .

 

So how to make " sense " out of all this. What does it mean to

" control " ? What does it mean for the Heart to be holographic? What

does it mean to be " everywhere " in the body? And when something is

touched, are you not touching the Heart which is everywhere?

 

4) " The emotions and spirits metaphorically trickle down from the

non-physical to the physical cells via the transportation of light. "

(P. 5 of your article).

 

Is it a metaphor or is it the true integration of Chinese medicine and

Western Science. Quantum Mechanics suggests that all matter is

" frozen " as " waves " until it is " observed " and then it manifests into

a physical object. Bohm in his theories suggests an Implicate Universe

(not unlike the Dao) that manfiests when it is Observed (by

Conssciousness).

 

With this line of thought, I believe, it is possible to greatly

simplify . It makes everything One - holographic - and

can be treated as One. I believe this is why my teacher is able to

talk about everything as Warm or Cold Qi without any need to introduce

any other terms in his practice (well maybe " blockages). For him, it

is enough and it appears to be enough.

 

This does not mean that it does not create conceptual paradoxes - it

does. But it does make the practice much easier. Just like Quantum

Mechanics greatly simplies our description of the Universe (i.e.,

everything is born out of quantum probability waves) but at the same

time creates conceptual paradox - i.e. " Everything exists everywhere

(quantum probability waves are infinite in all directions) and does

not come into existence until it is observed. " Well the Dao De Jing

warned us against trying to describe the nature of the universe and

human beings using words. :-)

 

 

>I'm particularly interested in the

> Liver's emotion, as even though the Heart is the commander of all >

>the Zangfu, the Liver may be the gateway to our higher soul or

>states of consciousness. Hence most drugs that change our

>consciousness greatly affect the Liver.

 

Yes, I agree. Looking at the Liver as the gateway to the Soul does

help explain the effects of western drugs and Chinese herbs. There is

however, the paradox of the Heart being everywhere (holographically)

yet manifesting in different forms - Liver, Lung.

 

From " The Effect of Sadness and Other Emotions on the Body " , by Yong

Ping Jiang

(http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2003/jan/01jiang.html)

 

" According to chapter eight of the Ling Shu, the liver often works

with the heart to generate emotions because " that which goes hither

and thither with the spirit is called the soul (hun). " Since the soul

is stored in the liver and the spirit is stored in the heart, these

two organs work together in the process of creating disordered

emotional states. "

 

Since Dr. Kaikobad has apparently spent some time contemplating the

nature of Spirt (Shen) and Soul (Po and Hun), I hope that he may share

his thoughts on this matter.

 

" Yes, I agree that different interpretations of patient's body

language and emotions may lead to a slightly different syndrome

diagnosis, although only slight. "

 

Here my experiences are dramatically different than yours. But I will

leave it up to each individual practitioner and patient to judge for

themselves based upon their own experiences. But, even if I am correct

and there is substantial and irreconcilable issues relating to the

subjectivity and uniqueness of any diagnosis (or an kind of

" measurement " as suggested by Quantum Physicis) I do not believe that

this is an insurmountable problem.

 

My teacher uses a model (not unlike Tom Tam's) where everything is

described as " cold " or " warm " , and " stagnated (damp) " or " flowing " .

This is his model, and he has excellent results. No other terms are

required. No diagnosis is required. Someone else may have an entirely

different model and achieve similar results. Two practitioners may

have an entirely different pulse diagnosis and interpretation and yet

still, within their own model, have excellent results. Does it all

work because of the " holographic " nature of the body?

 

The reasons I adopted by teacher's model is because it is simple,

clear and works. It is very much in line with the ideas that you

present in your paper. But your paper also suggest reasons why other

models also work. That is why your paper intriqued me so. There

appears to be something very " real " about the holographic universe.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio

>

> That doesn't mean that one is better than the other. They have their

> own systems and theory and need to be respected as they are. The

>goal is the same but the start point is different, from a different

> perceptional abstract.

 

Yes, I very much agree.

 

 

>This however is not always the view held in China, where WM is the

> King, followed by herbal medicine, then acupuncture, then Tuina,

down to Qi Gong. The viewpoint held in the West is quite different to

>China.

 

In many ways the duality of Confuciuism (hierarchical) and Daoism

(Circular/Spiral) continues to play itself out. Confuciusism embraces

the concept of " rank " while Daoism respects all " points in the circle "

as being equal.

 

Thanks for your remarks.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

--- Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

 

> " relative " relationship

> between practitioner/client is always unique and

> therefore suggests a

> unique outcome (e.g. diagnosis, treatment plan).

 

'Unique outcomes' don't sound very good to WM.

 

> Here is where I am trying out something new. Trying

> to " be there "

> (Shen) without my Will (Zhi) trying to influence. It

> is just something

> I am trying out. Maybe others can comment.

 

The only times I do this is when I'm trying to find a

point as well as when I've performed the insertion

already and am trying to feel what the energy is doing

at the end of the needle. Then I just forget

everything and breathe, with my awareness centred at

Yin Tang. When I manage to feel what the energy seems

to be doing, I shift my awareness to the lower field

and either close myself off or begin to interact with

the point. I've never done the non-action thing in

another context though, for example, during the

interview.

 

> >We can't be compassionate

> > without influence or by being totally void.

 

> Maybe we need to be only compassionate to ourselves

> and let our

> client/patients figure this out for themselves.

 

That's a good point.

 

> Ultimately, it is up to them .. I guess.

 

Probably!

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

_________ALL-NEW

Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Regarding feeling emotions through the pulse their is some truth to this. For

example often if the pulse is rapid this can often relate tostress or anger (I

say this very generally). Also as we know according to the 5 phases they are

related to the emotions. If kidney enery is deficient the often the person will

be experiencing worry of fear. I very knowledgable and experienced practitioner

should be able to detect this to a degree providing they know what pulses to

check and how to read all the other corrolating signs as TCM never relias on

just one form of diagnosis but rather a syndrome (group of symptoms).

 

Regards

 

Manu

 

Doc <Doc wrote:

 

 

wrote:

 

> Personally I had zero training in

reading emotions from the pulse, and all teachers I studied with (Chinese

and Americans) never did this. And now that I think about it, I have never

read anything in Chinese that suggests that this is possible,. Now I am

completely open to the idea that I missed some major dx tool, but as usual

am skeptical..<

 

In the lineage training /aprenticeship i went through this was emphasized and my

reading within the classics included this matrial. (though it would take one of

the actual scholars on the list to make citations since i do not think in this

way)

 

>Maybe you could explain what a fearful pulse is or

something?? <

 

In words on an elist no. If you were in my clinic i could -as i do daily with

students- put your hand on the pulse and explain it. I am not very good with

words alone.

 

>I am just unclear how one does this, unless you are totally

talking about 'feeling' the pulse, where some psychic non-tangible

connection is made.<

 

I do not think this is psychic but there is a large element of intuition born of

experience to it.

 

>would like

to hear what kind of training you went through to feel this. <

 

In my aprenticeship and since i have taken over 75,000 pulses (that is 75,000+

pt visits)

 

>Furthermore,

what is the purpose of such, why not just ask them,<

 

If patients are in touch with their emotions i do just ask - and then compare

this to the pulse which is often more honest.

Americans tend to be rather disconnected from their emotionality.

 

>instead of leading them

down a path?<

 

Quite an assumption on your part! I take great pains to keep the info clear and

not suggestive. This you would see if we were not in this sterile emotionless

e-environment but in my clinic with a patient.

 

Doc Rosen

 

 

 

 

 

 

ALL-NEW Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

manu hamlin [manuhamlin]

Thursday, October 07, 2004 11:04 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Emotions and Pulse Diagnosis

 

 

 

 

Regarding feeling emotions through the pulse their is some truth to this.

For example often if the pulse is rapid this can often relate tostress or

anger (I say this very generally). Also as we know according to the 5 phases

they are related to the emotions.

 

[Jason]

 

The problem with this is that from the neijing to modern TCM the emotions

are not cleanly related to the 5 phases. The only emotion consistently

related to an organ is anger and the liver. For example, a lung issue does

not mean sorrow and sorrow does not relate to the lung. IT can, but

multiple organs are attributed to all the emotions. AS far as rapid pulse,

wow. so many things can go along with a rapid pulse, and anger (in my mind)

is far down the list. Just my thoughts.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

If kidney enery is deficient the often the person will be experiencing

worry of fear. I very knowledgable and experienced practitioner should be

able to detect this to a degree providing they know what pulses to check and

how to read all the other corrolating signs as TCM never relias on just one

form of diagnosis but rather a syndrome (group of symptoms).

 

Regards

 

Manu

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Hugo,

 

> The only times I do this is when I'm trying to find a

> point as well as when I've performed the insertion

> already and am trying to feel what the energy is doing

> at the end of the needle. Then I just forget

> everything and breathe, with my awareness centred at

> Yin Tang. When I manage to feel what the energy seems

> to be doing, I shift my awareness to the lower field

> and either close myself off or begin to interact with

> the point. I've never done the non-action thing in

> another context though, for example, during the

> interview.

 

Yes, this is very similar to what I am experimenting with. During

initial conversations I try to " listen " and answer questions, while

offering some idea of what tuina is all about. I use the car analogy.

That is, the body needs warm oil circulating (no blockages) so that

oil (blood) so that the body can clean itself out and keep it clean,

and the body needs gasoline (qi) in its tank so that the car can move

and keep the oil flowing. I keep things simple and see where things

" go " . :-)

 

Regards,

Rich