RE: Emotions

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> There are other aspects of classical texts that may not be

directly

> important to some people, but are to me and others. Those aspects

are:

> 1) inspiration: I find great inspiration in some of the classical

texts

> that gives me the juice to keep going after 23 years of Chinese

> medicine. I read the modern case reports and textbooks, but I

just

> don't get as much inspiration from them, although the data is very

> valuable.

> 2) the philosophy: Chinese medicine is as much a lifestyle and way

of

> thinking as a clinical practice. Enhancing one's thinking and way

of

> living is as healing if not more so than herbal medicine or

> acupuncture. It's what we call today preventative medicine. The

Su

> Wen was largely about preventative medicine, and its lessons are

still

> valid today. A healthy lifestyle and healthy mind and body are

the

> best defense against disease.

>

 

Z'ev,

 

I agree with you, there is more to the classics which do include

what you mention above. This though IMO, is a separate issue than

being discussed. But I also do agree with a) one does not

need this inspiration and philosophy from the classics to practice

medicine. b) People find inspiration from all sorts of books,

including chicken soup for the soul, which IMO is just as valid. So

although you might like what YOU read it is not for everyone, I for

example find at the moment, more inspiration from other sources and

classical Chinese texts offer me very little. I read pre-modern

material, and it is mainly for information (clinical & theoretical)).

 

 

> The expansion of Su Wen theory occurred in the SHL and Jin/Yuan

> theories up until the Qing dynasty and beyond. There is no

problem

> with this, but as we know with Chinese thought in general, one

doesn't

> discard traditional thought for the sake of the new. This is one

> difference from modern medicine.

 

My point is not that CM just discards to old for new, sorry if it

sounded like that, but more that CM as with any human endeavor makes

mistakes. Old theories are revised and discarded when they are

found ineffective / wrong. Look at wang qin ren, his original

theories were just wrong, they were replaced by a more correct

version, this has happened all throughout CM history. But I do

agree that western medicine does this much more.

With the emotions it just seems like a basic evolution. In the

beginning things were perceived simply. As doctors played with the

theories they realized there is more to it, therefore things

changed, the original theories did not necessarily get cut out, just

changed and adapted. What do you think?

 

-

 

 

The past is seen as largely obsolete,

> and modern medicine constantly strains towards the new. In

Chinese

> medicine, we have the advantage of an unbroken chain of

tradition. Why

> discard the past for the sake of the new? I don't think we need

to cut

> off one limb for the sake of the other. Let's research the

classical

> texts and do clinical trials and studies at the same time. Let's

grow

> in all directions. Why sacrifice anything?

>

> A tree only grows as tall as its roots grow deep.

>

>

>

>

> On Dec 13, 2003, at 7:01 PM, wrote:

>

> > Ancient CM is the same way, yes there is a foundation that still

> > exists today, but many more practical applications have been

> > discarded because they just aren't effective. And many of the

> > theories have been expanded because the previous theories of the

> > past were inadequate. Why dwell on the past when we have more

> > comprehensive systems of the day that address things more

> > completely. I only think this is appropriate when we see that

these

> > modern ideas do not work…

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> Jason, I think you make a good case for modern theory. I dont mean

to jump =

> in the

> middle of this but I see classical theory important when the

modern cannot =

> explain

> what is needed. Certainly we need to treat " grief " more as a chief

complain=

> t more

> often than doctors in 1960's China. (Not that it wasn't there, of

course.) =

> Can the

> classics help us? Let's look.

> Have I seen people treat " grief " with Sheng Mai San? All the

time... is it =

> effective?

> Weellll, I'd have to go back and ask. Do I treat recovering drug

addicts wi=

> th Gan Mai

> Da Zao and/or Chai Hu Long Gu Mu Li... yes, all the time. Is it

effective? =

> yes. Is it

> classical or modern theory? don't really care.

>

> doug

 

After a nights sleep and reflection on this topic let me try to

summarize my thoughts and feel free to disagree...

 

1) Emotions are and have always been a major etiological cause.

2) The neijing was a compilation of many ideas from different

authors, there was many contradictions within that text. In that

text statements like the lung = grief have been taken very

literally, especially by 5 elementals. In that same text the heart

is also related to the grief. People have taken the former statement

literally and one may see someone give shengmaisan to someone who

just lost a loved one, without other lung signs. This was were's question (I think) stemmed from. Is grief a key-note lung

sign. I think we have seen that grief can be caused by multiple

patterns not just from the lung and heart. Therefore, it is not a

keynote sign, and should be only used in conjunction with other s/s.

3) The understanding of emotions and the role in human health has

evolved much from neijing's basic one liners. This is quite clear

from modern Chinese literature and even the way westerners have

taken hold of the medicine. Does this negate the classics? I don't

think so, but it does show they had a limited perspective and now we

have much more information to treat our patients. Therefore when we

see someone just put in Lu3 or give shengmaisan for grief without

lung signs I suggest skepticism. I think it is just a limited

viewpoint, and the literature suggests there is much more to it than

that. I.e. if someone comes in for insomnia do we just give an mian

pian without further questioning? OF course not, but some do…

4) Since grief can relate to lung (making the neijing correct) but

can also be related to a sp heart problems (among others) (making

the neijing incomplete), we do not see grief showing up in lists of

s/s under basic lung conditions for various diseases (at least I

have not seen it yet). IS this because the sorrow can not be

treated as part of the pattern - I don't think so. It is probably

because it just isn't a defining factor in the pattern. Does it

mean that the patient cannot have grief within that pattern? Again

I don't think so…Does anyone else have an idea why? Todd?, Brian?

Z'ev?

5) Obviously emotions are also chief complaints, and we can treat

them. And treating them is just like treating any other disease.

We must pattern differentiate and prescribe accordingly. This is

one of the strengths of Modern CM. They have complied much of the

past patterns and one can look and see " there are 5 possibilities

for this disease " - which one is it? (or combination of)… This is

powerful, especially when may open a book from 300 years ago and

read that the same disease has only 2 possible patterns. This

happens all the time, and demonstrates the power of the present. IT

of course took the past to get to our present point, compiling the

past gives the present strength and also demonstrates limitations of

various viewpoints of the past. I am not saying that the past does

not have anything to offer, because sometimes things slip through

the cracks, but there a 100,000's of asians practicing and reading

all this information, so I just wonder how much that is???

That is it for now…

 

 

Jason C.

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Jason

> What is going on with the flu in Co? i.e. what has been your

experience so far?

 

My experience is not long enough to say anything of that great

relevance. But, I have treated both kids and adults, and I just

treat what I see. SOme come in with stomach related stuff, more

with head, some with chest. I don't see anything that peculiar

except for maybe a night sweat component. Everyone seems to respond

very well. Can't say I even have thought about it much because of

that. I write all custom raw formulas so can't say I base txs on

anything in petic , " Alon

Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Jason

> What is going on with the flu in Co? i.e. what has been your

experience so far?

 

My experience is not long enough to say anything of that great

relevance. But, I have treated both kids and adults, and I just

treat what I see. Some come in with stomach related stuff, more

with head, some with chest. I don't see anything that peculiar

except for maybe a night sweat component. Everyone seems to respond

very well. Can't say I even have thought about it much because of

that. I have used all custom raw formulas and acupuncture.

Last year was my first winter in CO and it seems very similar… but

who knows… I guess I don't think anything that peculiar until

treatments start failing. I am unsure what data you guys are looking

for..?

 

-

[Guest guest]

Jason

thanks

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason wrote: In that text statements like the lung = grief have been

taken veryliterally, especially by 5 elementals. In that same text

the heart is also related to the grief. People have taken the former

statement literally and one may see someone give shengmaisan to

someone who`just lost a loved one, without other lung signs. This

was were`Todd's question (I think) stemmed from. Is grief a key-note

lung sign. I think we have seen that grief can be caused by multiple

patterns not just from the lung and heart. >>>

 

 

Grief isn't necessarily a lung sign, but it is related to lung

through its association with the Metal Phase---similarly as the LI

is related to lung. I think part of the problem comes from a

relatively simplified view of emotions that the Chinese had. We know

from Western medicine that emtions operate as complex systems in the

sense that they emerge from interactions of constituent

neurohormonal, motoric, and experiential processes. Individual

emotions can also coassemble with other emtions to form contingent

patterns that stabilize over repititions and time. They are, as some

consider, " both the product and stuff of system organization. " While

we can see emotions like grief related to a particular pulse

position (right distal, or metal), they do not necessarily directly

affect an organ. They manifest at a different depth than the organ

(as observed using the Nan Jing method); although prolonged or

repititous emotional states can, in time, change the organ's

functioning. Since sheng ma " ravenges ghosts " or diseases

complicated by metal disorders according to the Divine Farmer's

Materia Medica, it may sometimes be successful in helping resolve

grief.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I tend to tell my patients what emotions they are feeling after i take pulse and

tongue.

I will say * so what is causing you to have grief saddness loss issues?* and

then the patient opens up about it.

 

Doc

 

Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote:

It's funny that we're talking about emotions. I always thought that us

westerners were more in-touch with our emotions than the Chinese. But having

spent some time in China, I realised that the opposite is true. Doctors in

China ask the patient 'how are their emotions?', and the patient will

readily give an honest answer, however in the west, well the UK at least,

you ask them 'how are their emotions' and its almost an insult. 'Of course

there normal', the patient tells, but often than not their emotions are all

over the place. So actually I've found that westerners emotions are not

balanced at all, whereas the Chinese are more open and honest about their

emotions but they won't show them so readily as we do.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio D'Alberto

<http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

 

 

[zrosenbe]

28 September 2004 22:30

Chinese Medicine

Re: Internet infections

 

 

This idea makes no sense to me at all. Emotions are one of the great

keys to understanding our patients and their various patterns. The

understanding of how emotions relate to physical health is one of the

cornerstones of Chinese medicine.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hmmm....hope this doesn't offend anyone, but from what I understand

the British tend to be more careful about opening up about their

emotions than Americans. What do you think? I quite like the Brits

though, so Bloody hell, I don't want to hear any flack about this

observation, got it mates? Ok, yeah, I know, " Mate " is an

Australian word.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Doc <Doc@s...>

wrote:

> Hi,

> I tend to tell my patients what emotions they are feeling after i

take pulse and tongue.

> I will say * so what is causing you to have grief saddness loss

issues?* and then the patient opens up about it.

>

> Doc

>

> Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> It's funny that we're talking about emotions. I always thought that

us

> westerners were more in-touch with our emotions than the Chinese.

But having

> spent some time in China, I realised that the opposite is true.

Doctors in

> China ask the patient 'how are their emotions?', and the patient

will

> readily give an honest answer, however in the west, well the UK at

least,

> you ask them 'how are their emotions' and its almost an insult. 'Of

course

> there normal', the patient tells, but often than not their

emotions are all

> over the place. So actually I've found that westerners emotions are

not

> balanced at all, whereas the Chinese are more open and honest about

their

> emotions but they won't show them so readily as we do.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio D'Alberto

> <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

>

> [zrosenbe@s...]

> 28 September 2004 22:30

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Internet infections

>

>

> This idea makes no sense to me at all. Emotions are one of the

great

> keys to understanding our patients and their various patterns. The

> understanding of how emotions relate to physical health is one of

the

> cornerstones of Chinese medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Doc, Attilio, and all.

 

> Hi,

> I tend to tell my patients what emotions they are feeling after i

take pulse and tongue.

> I will say * so what is causing you to have grief saddness loss

issues?* and then the patient opens up about it.

 

This is interesting. Sometimes this happens when I am

practicingTuina/Qigong bodywork with a client. But then I think: Am I

really " assessing " my client, or am I possibly " revealing " myself?

When I feel " Yin " is it because my client is really Yin or is it

because I am too " Yang " . Is it my client who is in " grief " ir is it

what I am seeing because it is in " myself " . An interesting question.

 

Lately, I have tried a new idea. Being " neutral " or as Guigen

suggested - entering into " Nothingness " . I am " there " but I am not

trying to " do something " or figure out something. There have been

interesting results. My client assumes the leadership role and

naturally says and guides the session.

 

The same when I place my hands on the middle and lower dantiens

(Japanese Hara) - the seat of Consciousness. I do not try to

" diagnose " . I just " observe " .

 

Today, while teaching a client some qigong, she began to talk about

unhappy moments in her life and said she felt like crying. I didn't

place any judgement or attempt to tell her how to react. I simply

said, let your own Mind do what it needs to do and figure things out

for itself. She should believe in her own power to Learn (heal?) for

herself. She didn't cry - but she kept telling me how much better she

felt after we finished. I really didn't do much except give her some

simple exercises to warm the qi in her body (she had lots of cold qi),

and to open up the spine - which was stagnant.

 

I have given emotions lots of thought lately (hence my interest in

Larre's " Rooted in the Spirit " ) and I welcome all comments.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

> > Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> not their emotions are all

> over the place. So actually I've found that

> westerners emotions are not

> balanced at all, whereas the Chinese are more open

> and honest about their

> emotions but they won't show them so readily as we

> do.

 

I agree. Part of this " hiding " of emotions that old

cultures do is actually a very classy behaviour that I

appreciate more and more as time goes on.

This is what I was trying to say before. Westerners

are more all over the place and why? I think it's

because they over-value emotions or place improper

values and meanings upon them. For example, they have

no understanding of how a damaged organ will generate

an emotion, and therefore are always assuming that

their emotions have some sort of validity based on

external influences, when in reality they are entirely

internal movements in this example with no basis in

external events.

 

Anyway, thanks,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

Yes, I think its far more revealing if you let the patient declare their

emotions rather than suggesting an emotion. Although it might not seem like

you are influencing their thoughts a phrase like " so what is causing you to

have grief saddness loss issues? " causes the person to search for sorrow in

their mind and of course most of us will have some sorrow if we look for it.

This type of phrase is known within hypnotherapy as a " presupposition " . You

are not asking " are they sorrowful? " but rather you are asking what is

" causing " their sorrow. This encourages their subconcsious mind to assume

that they are sorrowful and begin the search for sadness.. Worse still this

could easily influence them to become more sorrowful.

 

So I agree with you, it is much better to remain neutral.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

-

" Rich " <rfinkelstein

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:13 AM

Re: Emotions

 

 

>

> Hi Doc, Attilio, and all.

>

> > Hi,

> > I tend to tell my patients what emotions they are feeling after i

> take pulse and tongue.

> > I will say * so what is causing you to have grief saddness loss

> issues?* and then the patient opens up about it.

>

> This is interesting. Sometimes this happens when I am

> practicingTuina/Qigong bodywork with a client. But then I think: Am I

> really " assessing " my client, or am I possibly " revealing " myself?

> When I feel " Yin " is it because my client is really Yin or is it

> because I am too " Yang " . Is it my client who is in " grief " ir is it

> what I am seeing because it is in " myself " . An interesting question.

>

> Lately, I have tried a new idea. Being " neutral " or as Guigen

> suggested - entering into " Nothingness " . I am " there " but I am not

> trying to " do something " or figure out something. There have been

> interesting results. My client assumes the leadership role and

> naturally says and guides the session.

>

> The same when I place my hands on the middle and lower dantiens

> (Japanese Hara) - the seat of Consciousness. I do not try to

> " diagnose " . I just " observe " .

>

> Today, while teaching a client some qigong, she began to talk about

> unhappy moments in her life and said she felt like crying. I didn't

> place any judgement or attempt to tell her how to react. I simply

> said, let your own Mind do what it needs to do and figure things out

> for itself. She should believe in her own power to Learn (heal?) for

> herself. She didn't cry - but she kept telling me how much better she

> felt after we finished. I really didn't do much except give her some

> simple exercises to warm the qi in her body (she had lots of cold qi),

> and to open up the spine - which was stagnant.

>

> I have given emotions lots of thought lately (hence my interest in

> Larre's " Rooted in the Spirit " ) and I welcome all comments.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Dermot,

 

> So I agree with you, it is much better to remain neutral.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

 

Thank you for sharing with me your additional thoughts on this matter.

 

The art of " working with another person " (via tuina/anmo) is

relatively new to me. I being a a coputer specialist for 30 years and

a Taiji/Qigong student/teacher for 20. So for me, I am still very much

in the process of gaining experience. Thank you for sharing with me

your perspective. It is very useful to me as a student.

 

Any other comments would also be very much appreciated. Especially on

the subbect of " diagnosis " . In the Shiatsu tradition, one tries to

diagnose the Jitsu/Kyo (Yang/Yin) of the Hara (middle, lower abdomnen)

not much unlike pulse diagnosis (albeit in an entirely different

region of the body). But I am somewhat confused concerning the

" objectivity " of such a diagnosis. For example, (I have noticed) that

an overly Yin person (relative to myself) will always " diagnose me as

being too Jitsu (of course), and a Yang person (relative to myself)

will diagnose me as being too Kyo. This of course makes sense, but the

diagnosis seems to be very subjective.

 

Similarly, I have seen similar issues during pulse diagnosis (by both

students and professionals). The diagnosis seems to be as dependent on

the nature of the diagnostician as it is on the patient. Doesn't it

have to be this way? Thus subjectivity seems to enter very directly

into any attempt to diagnosis - hence the divergences in diagnosis

among practitioners.

 

WM attempts to create " objectivity " by placing a machine (technology)

in between the observer (doctor) and the observed (patient) - even to

the extent of trying to measure emotions by the nature of teh " brain

waves " . But, at the end, all " measurements " , must be " interpreted " ,

thus the wide-range of " interpretations " of any given set of

measurements within the WM profession.

 

It appears to me that the whole issue of diagnosis, has an inherent

subjective aspect to it. Being " neutral " is an interesting way to

approach it, for me.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

What you term " hiding " I would call " reticence. " What I have seen in

traditional or long-established cultural settings (even in old farm

communities here in the U.S.) is that older community structures provided

support for people's emotional expression and re-balancing through

traditional relationships and networks. Individuals had people to go to

when they felt themselves going out of balance, and so didn't need to put

that out to anybody and everybody; therefore it is impolite to do so. In

post-modern, highly mobile and fragmented societies, that support is

missing or unreliable, so individuals more often throw out their emotions

to anyone, seeking support (I mean this in a more unconscious way).

Another person's listening is a large part of emotional re-balancing, and

that is often what people in fast-paced societies don't have time for.

When things get really bad, people end up in therapy. OK, I am overstating

this to make a point; however, do you understand what I mean?

 

Pat

 

 

> > Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> not their emotions are all

> over the place. So actually I've found that

> westerners emotions are not

> balanced at all, whereas the Chinese are more open

> and honest about their

> emotions but they won't show them so readily as we

> do.

 

I agree. Part of this " hiding " of emotions that old

cultures do is actually a very classy behaviour that I

appreciate more and more as time goes on.

This is what I was trying to say before. Westerners

are more all over the place and why? I think it's

because they over-value emotions or place improper

values and meanings upon them. For example, they have

no understanding of how a damaged organ will generate

an emotion, and therefore are always assuming that

their emotions have some sort of validity based on

external influences, when in reality they are entirely

internal movements in this example with no basis in

external events.

 

Anyway, thanks,

Hugo

[Guest guest]

--- Pat Ethridge <pat.ethridge wrote:

> that is often what people in fast-paced societies

> don't have time for.

> When things get really bad, people end up in

> therapy. OK, I am overstating

> this to make a point; however, do you understand

> what I mean?

 

There you go, you said it better than I. That was

very clear.

 

Thank you,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:46:34 -0000, " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote:

 

> Hmmm....hope this doesn't offend anyone, but from what I understand the

British tend to be more careful about opening up about their emotions than

Americans.

 

A teacher back in TCM school once related a 5-phase morphology:

China is earth -- center/zhong, yellow,…

Europe is wood - smoothly regulated, dynamism, tension,(?)

USA is fire - emotional, expressive, heart-disease #1

[don't recall the associations for water and metal]

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

Dermot O'Connor [dermot]

Thursday, September 30, 2004 3:52 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Emotions

 

 

 

Hi Rich,

 

Yes, I think its far more revealing if you let the patient declare their

emotions rather than suggesting an emotion. Although it might not seem like

you are influencing their thoughts a phrase like " so what is causing you to

have grief saddness loss issues? " causes the person to search for sorrow in

their mind and of course most of us will have some sorrow if we look for it.

 

[Jason]

 

I agree, and I ask how one is determining what emotions their patient is

feeling from the pulse?

 

 

 

-

 

 

This type of phrase is known within hypnotherapy as a " presupposition " . You

are not asking " are they sorrowful? " but rather you are asking what is

" causing " their sorrow. This encourages their subconcsious mind to assume

that they are sorrowful and begin the search for sadness.. Worse still this

could easily influence them to become more sorrowful.

 

So I agree with you, it is much better to remain neutral.

 

Kind regards

 

Dermot

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:46:34 -0000, " heylaurag "

<heylaurag wrote:

 

> Hmmm....hope this doesn't offend anyone, but from what I

>understand the british tend to be more careful about opening up

about their emotions than americans.

 

>A teacher back in TCM school once related a 5-phase morphology:

> China is earth -- center/zhong, yellow,…

> Europe is wood - smoothly regulated, dynamism, tension,(?)

> USA is fire - emotional, expressive, heart-disease #1

> [don't recall the associations for water and metal]

>

>

 

Interesting, but the teacher did not include definitions for

China, just stated the element and color!

Also, a country may have a basic element/identity, but this is

subject to occasional changes through history, for example; China

in the revolution was anything BUT Earth, it was a raving fire!

You see the dynamic interplay of the five elements in

everything,; Europe, USA, China, etc...

Marcos

 

 

 

 

 

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