Guest guest Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Hi Doc, I was recently training in a Qi Gong form when my teacher along with some other people in the group talked of a master visiting from China,at his group in Sydney. The visiting master was challenged by some students who did not know him and so he had them stand in a row one in front of the other, in front of him. The visiting master picked up the shirt sleeves only of the front person and lightly shook them. He then dropped them and simply said " GO " at which time all 5 people where thrown back to a great degree. I also did not witness this directly but 4 people at my group did. Best Wishes Anita - " Doc " <Doc <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Thursday, September 23, 2004 10:39 AM Re: tuina - yi zhi chan > > I have seen/experienced practitioners simply touch a person and > knock them over > > > I have knocked a total stranger -who believed i could not- back 20' with a very slight tap > > (in front of twenty thousand witnesses) > > I break wood and cinder block with a relaxed hand and no physical > force to speak of > > > I watched Sifu Chen break roof tyle by simply touching it and with > the tiniest of movements > > but > > doing these things without touching > i relegate to legend > everyone who has told me that they know of it happenning > says > > I was told by *** who saw it > > but never > > I Saw it > > as for remote healing > East West Journal (i think but might have been New Age) did a study a few years back and found > Ch'i Kung effective > Ch'i Kung without touching no effect > and Reiki > no effect > > I had a patient die from cancer not long ago (I was helping with > pain only since cancer is ouside my competence to treat) > This patient had been pronounced cured by her Reiki Practitioner > who often treated over the phone > > Doc > > > Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Speaking of tuina, when i was in school i learned tuina from a teacher from Shanghai. She had studied under a master of yi zhi chan - one thumb meditation was how she translated it. It was basically a stationary technique using gentle pressure with a slight rhythmic rocking motion. The key was to establish a meditative state of mind and spend some time on the point one was treating. I learned all the other techniques she taught, like guan (rolling), etc. But I used the yi zhi chan more than anything else. When I taught at the school in Miami, the tuina teacher was also from Shanghai. He taught the techniques such as guan in a very similar way as i had learned. But the yi zhi chan was very different -- it still used the thumb and a slight rocking motion but was vigorous, quick and mobile, almost like a combination of dotting and guan but done with the thumb. Seemed much less meditative. I found this difference intriguing. Did anyone else here learn yi zhi chan and if so from where and how was the technique performed? robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 My tuina instructor in acupuncture school (a chiropractor, orthopedic surgeon & TCM doctor from china, don't remember which part) emphasized the more aggressive form. It was one of the more difficult techniques for the students to get the hang of, although he would teach it slower in the beginning and have everyone speed it up later. He said that practitioners used to strengthen their thumbs by forming the fist and standing upside down balancing themselves on the tip of one thumb. > Did anyone else here learn yi zhi chan and if so from > where and how was the technique performed? > > robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hi All, & Brian, > Phil, I must say I continue to be surprised by the sheer wealth of > information you present. You bring up an issue of debate amongst > taiji / qigong enthusiasts which is still unresolved for me. ... Brian, its is not my info! I I am an avid Googler! One can find an incredible amount of info on Google, especially if one uses the features available on the advanced Google search engine: http://www.google.com/advanced_search Colleagues, if YOU have NOT used the Google advanced search facilities, you might take a few minutes to explore them. They help one to refine a search dramatically. Google also accepts inputs in Hanzi, Korean, Japanese and Russian script. So if you have oriental language dictionaries on CD or online, or a copy of Wenlin or NJStar, you can input oriental characters (such as Hanzi script) for herb names, formulas, syndromes, etc and come up with data from the far east. Of course, one then has the problem of translating that! My problem is to know what info on Google one can TRUST, because so much of it is commercial drivel. But I AM interested in the possibility of Gigong / Yi effects at a distance. Clearly, if that is possible, it could have amazing uses in both Dx and Tx of human and animal subjects. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hi All, & Brian & Robert, Robert wrote: > Did anyone else here learn yi zhi chan and if so from where and > how was the technique performed? Brian replied: > My tuina instructor in acupuncture school (a chiropractor, > orthopedic surgeon & TCM doctor from china, don't remember which > part) emphasized the more aggressive form. It was one of the more > difficult techniques for the students to get the hang of, although > he would teach it slower in the beginning and have everyone speed > it up later. He said that practitioners used to strengthen their > thumbs by forming the fist and standing upside down balancing > themselves on the tip of one thumb. See: http://tinyurl.com/5pszw See also: http://www.hokkian-siauwlim.com/qigong.html It says!!: A Qi Gong master who has attained the apex of Nei Yang Gong can kill a person from a distance of three meters without touching him. Use of lesser Qi force will merely stun a person or knock him down. This exceptional art is called Yi Yang Zhi (sun-ray finger) better known as Yi Zhi Chan (one-finger art). However, the time of day is an additional factor that must be considered in healing. The best hours for medical treatment and for Qi Gong exercises, are the early morning hours between 0300-0500h. The use of one-finger art recognizes that acupuncture points respond differently at various hours of the diurnal cycle, and if the time of application is not right for the organ or area of the body associated with that particular acupuncture point, the treatment may not be effective. When a Qi Gong master can jump up from the ground and suspend himself in the air with only his hands touching a wall, this is called Bi Hu Gong, (the tiger climbing up the wall). Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hi Robert and Brian, I have observed several tuina practitioners and each certainly has their own style and preferred techniques - which I think is quite natural. I have never seem my current practitioner use " single finger meditation " . His tuina preferences are deep circling techniques as well as firm grasping and pushing. I think there is a practical aspect to this. His bodywork protocol addresses all parts of the body in each session - muscles, tendors/ligaments, bones, joints, fascia, etc. On top of this he is clearing the energetic body using qigong and applying qigong energy where necessary. This all has to be completed within 50 minutes. So I do not think his Mind is in a framework to " meditate " on individual points. However, he does spend some time when he uses qigong - but this is an entirely different technique. I on the otherhand can spend as much time as I like with someone, so sometimes I will spend 1.5 - 2 hours. With this time allotment available to me, I can use different techniques. Sometimes the variation single finger techniques are very appropriate and I natural use them. Usually, it is when I sense that there is a small blockage that " needs " softer and deeper attention. While " deep and vigorous " may in the short-term have the same effect as " slow and meditative " , I think that over the longer term, the slower and more meditative approach has a more profound effect on the Mind of the " receiver " . The effects are therefore possibly more long-lasting. But I certainly wouldn't say this is true in all cases. One of the teachers at a TCM school that I attended was a simply wonderful tuina/gigong teacher. She loved the single finger meditation techniques because it went so well with her qigong. She is really adored by the students at that school. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " kampo36 " <kampo36> wrote: > Speaking of tuina, when i was in school i learned tuina from a teacher from Shanghai. She > had studied under a master of yi zhi chan - one thumb meditation was how she translated > it. It was basically a stationary technique using gentle pressure with a slight rhythmic > rocking motion. The key was to establish a meditative state of mind and spend some time > on the point one was treating. I learned all the other techniques she taught, like guan > (rolling), etc. But I used the yi zhi chan more than anything else. > > When I taught at the school in Miami, the tuina teacher was also from Shanghai. He taught > the techniques such as guan in a very similar way as i had learned. But the yi zhi chan was > very different -- it still used the thumb and a slight rocking motion but was > vigorous, quick and mobile, almost like a combination of dotting and guan but done with > the thumb. Seemed much less meditative. > > I found this difference intriguing. Did anyone else here learn yi zhi chan and if so from > where and how was the technique performed? > > robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Phil, I must say I continue to be surprised by the sheer wealth of information you present. You bring up an issue of debate amongst taiji / qigong enthusiasts which is still unresolved for me. This topic of knocking people down / killing them without touching them is still difficult for me. Certainly one doesn't need to touch the body to illicite qi sensations, but knocking someone over from a distance has been difficult for me to buy, perhaps because I haven't seen it or experienced it myself. I once went to a seminar in xuan kong (empty force) which the instructor was manipulating his students from a far and knocking them down, but wouldn't try it on anyone in the audience because he didn't want to mess up their qi. My response is, if you're so advanced, why wouldn't you be able to undo any damage that might happen? The qigong he taught was certainly very good but this manipulation from a distance seemed to be more for show. Ken Cohen wrote an article in taiji magazine a while ago which he referenced this and said it can happen as a scare tactic and only works for the instructor on his students because the students tend to have a natural fear / respect for the instructor. The strike has an accompanying yell with it that shakes them up and they fall down. The one person I know who has seen this happen falls into this category. So the question is, has anyone ever seen someone knock over another person that is unrelated to them and not looking at them. Well, this isn't exactly an ethical thing to do (similar to what superman does when he's drunk) so it may have to continue to be undecided in my mind. brian beard > > A Qi Gong master who has attained the apex of Nei Yang Gong > can kill a person from a distance of three meters without touching > him. Use of lesser Qi force will merely stun a person or knock him > down. This exceptional art is called Yi Yang Zhi (sun-ray finger) > better known as Yi Zhi Chan (one-finger art). However, the time of > day is an additional factor that must be considered in healing. The > best hours for medical treatment and for Qi Gong exercises, are > the early morning hours between 0300-0500h. The use of one-finger > art recognizes that acupuncture points respond differently at > various hours of the diurnal cycle, and if the time of application is > not right for the organ or area of the body associated with that > particular acupuncture point, the treatment may not be effective. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Rich, So could you elaborate on what the single finger techniques are you're referring to? --brian beard > variation single finger techniques are very appropriate and I natural > use them. Usually, it is when I sense that there is a small blockage > that " needs " softer and deeper attention. While " deep and vigorous " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hi Brian, Robert, et al., > Rich, > > So could you elaborate on what the single finger techniques are > you're referring to? > > --brian beard I have tried and seen many variations. It is all very natural depending upon the nature of the blockage. Sometimes, while I am doing bodywork, I will come across a very small and deep blockage. It can be in the hands, in the arms, in the legs, the the neck are - pretty much anywhere. Usually it is painful to the receiver. Sometimes it is hard (stagnated). It doesn't feel " right " to me to use large circular motions or deep penetrating ones. It feels like it is a little " stuck " and just needs to be nudged a bit to move - kind of letting the receiver's Mind know that it is a good idea to release the blockage " right there " . So I will stop and " connect " and meditate on it with my finger touching it and gently vibrating. I try not to " do " anything. I think it is up to the receiver to figure things out and release it, if he/she is ready. Sometimes, I will use a little push or pull. Just trying to nudge the blockage along. These blockages, though small, are often the key " emotional " blockages and release themselves only when they are good and ready. Sometimes, actually quite often, if I try to " get it out " , it will simply move to some other part of the body - often a mirrored part, and the receiver will right away tell me that something moved " over there " . :-) This can also be done without touching, as long as there is an energetic feel. I prefer to touch at this point with my level of experience. The practitioner who I am learning from, can use qi like a acupunture needle - but he rarely does this. He just goes " at it " . :-) I am looking forward to hearing other people's experiences and thoughts on this. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 A very well known British illusionist Derren Brown demonstrated the " no inch " punch on television. Essential he used the same technique that most pretend Qigong masters use to perform this amazing demonstration........hypnosis! Maybe it can be done.....certainly Qi can push you back or pull you forward, but I believe it is usually more subtle than a punch. Kind regards Dermot > So the question is, has anyone ever seen someone knock over another > person that is unrelated to them and not looking at them. Well, this > isn't exactly an ethical thing to do (similar to what superman does > when he's drunk) so it may have to continue to be undecided in my > mind. > > brian beard > > > > > A Qi Gong master who has attained the apex of Nei Yang Gong > > can kill a person from a distance of three meters without touching > > him. Use of lesser Qi force will merely stun a person or knock him > > down. This exceptional art is called Yi Yang Zhi (sun-ray finger) > > better known as Yi Zhi Chan (one-finger art). However, the time of > > day is an additional factor that must be considered in healing. The > > best hours for medical treatment and for Qi Gong exercises, are > > the early morning hours between 0300-0500h. The use of one-finger > > art recognizes that acupuncture points respond differently at > > various hours of the diurnal cycle, and if the time of application > is > > not right for the organ or area of the body associated with that > > particular acupuncture point, the treatment may not be effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi, I don't believe in the distance killing of Yi Zhi Chan at all. I've spent a lifetime in the martial arts and this is not possible. The technique of Yi Zhi Chan is to strengthen the fingers so much that you can kill a person with a strike with your index finger. The last master of this technique was monk Hai Deng from the Shaolin temple and this was captured on tape. As for healing, that may be possible with Wai Qi Zhi Liao (emitting qi treatments). Don't believe all the poo-poo one reads. Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD chusauli See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > " " < >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >CC: mMMeeting > Re: tuina - yi zhi chan >Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:54:47 +0100 > >Hi All, & Brian & Robert, > >Robert wrote: > > Did anyone else here learn yi zhi chan and if so from where and > > how was the technique performed? > >Brian replied: > > My tuina instructor in acupuncture school (a chiropractor, > > orthopedic surgeon & TCM doctor from china, don't remember which > > part) emphasized the more aggressive form. It was one of the more > > difficult techniques for the students to get the hang of, although > > he would teach it slower in the beginning and have everyone speed > > it up later. He said that practitioners used to strengthen their > > thumbs by forming the fist and standing upside down balancing > > themselves on the tip of one thumb. > >See: http://tinyurl.com/5pszw > >See also: http://www.hokkian-siauwlim.com/qigong.html > >It says!!: > >A Qi Gong master who has attained the apex of Nei Yang Gong >can kill a person from a distance of three meters without touching >him. Use of lesser Qi force will merely stun a person or knock him >down. This exceptional art is called Yi Yang Zhi (sun-ray finger) >better known as Yi Zhi Chan (one-finger art). However, the time of >day is an additional factor that must be considered in healing. The >best hours for medical treatment and for Qi Gong exercises, are >the early morning hours between 0300-0500h. The use of one-finger >art recognizes that acupuncture points respond differently at >various hours of the diurnal cycle, and if the time of application is >not right for the organ or area of the body associated with that >particular acupuncture point, the treatment may not be effective. > >When a Qi Gong master can jump up from the ground and suspend >himself in the air with only his hands touching a wall, this is called >Bi Hu Gong, (the tiger climbing up the wall). > > > >Best regards, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi All, & Brian, > Phil, I must say I continue to be surprised by the sheer wealth of > information you present. You bring up an issue of debate amongst > taiji / qigong enthusiasts which is still unresolved for me. ... Brian, its is not my info! I I am an avid Googler! One can find an incredible amount of info on Google, especially if one uses the features available on the advanced Google search engine: http://www.google.com/advanced_search Colleagues, if YOU have NOT used the Google advanced search facilities, you might take a few minutes to explore them. They help one to refine a search dramatically. Google also accepts inputs in Hanzi, Korean, Japanese and Russian script. So if you have oriental language dictionaries on CD or online, or a copy of Wenlin or NJStar, you can input oriental characters (such as Hanzi script) for herb names, formulas, syndromes, etc and come up with data from the far east. Of course, one then has the problem of translating that! My problem is to know what info on Google one can TRUST, because so much of it is commercial drivel. But I AM interested in the possibility of Gigong / Yi effects at a distance. Clearly, if that is possible, it could have amazing uses in both Dx and Tx of human and animal subjects. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 My tuina teacher is from Shenyang in Liaoning province, in northern China. The standard Tuina up there is vigorous and often looks quite rough, even brutal! my teacher's style is much more fluid and soft than some of his countrymen, but still the YiZhiChan that he has taught us is quite vigorous: three versions, using the tip, side, or the " whorl " (pad, fingerprint area) of the thumb fixed on a point, and applying rapid oscillations of the distal interphalangeal joint with firm pressure. the rate of oscillation and level of pressure will vary depending on the effect desired. In my experience this technique works incredibly well for dispersing stagnation (breaking up fixed tight areas), but I haven't yet worked out how to use it effectively for tonifying. On the " empty force " topic, there are a couple of good books called " warriors of stillness " by a guy called Jan Diepersloot, on the standing meditative traditions of the internal martial arts, one on Taiji and one on Yiquan. In the Yiquan book he mentions that of the two or three teachers he's met who practiced it, the two whose attitudes he preffered thought of it as an exercise in sensitivity: students who were sensitive enough were able to perceive the teachers intent/force from a distance and react to it. thus it probably wouldn't work too well on someone who wasn't sensitive or wasn't really paying attention to their sensations. the other teacher who did it apparently allowed his students to believe that it was a kind of irresistable force that could send them flying whether they liked it or not. Hmm... Simon Thakur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Dr Greenstien and Sifu Chen (my two major teachers) each had a slightly different approach when i was taught this technique. One used rapid movement one as you describe. Both had me do finger tip push ups and then thumb only push ups and use rice jars and sand bags to strenghthen my hands and thumbs. They also had me work with two 5lb steel balls which i rolled around in first one direction and then the other. Doc kampo36 <kampo36 wrote: Speaking of tuina, when i was in school i learned tuina from a teacher from Shanghai. She had studied under a master of yi zhi chan - one thumb meditation was how she translated it. It was basically a stationary technique using gentle pressure with a slight rhythmic rocking motion. The key was to establish a meditative state of mind and spend some time on the point one was treating. I learned all the other techniques she taught, like guan (rolling), etc. But I used the yi zhi chan more than anything else. When I taught at the school in Miami, the tuina teacher was also from Shanghai. He taught the techniques such as guan in a very similar way as i had learned. But the yi zhi chan was very different -- it still used the thumb and a slight rocking motion but was vigorous, quick and mobile, almost like a combination of dotting and guan but done with the thumb. Seemed much less meditative. I found this difference intriguing. Did anyone else here learn yi zhi chan and if so from where and how was the technique performed? robert hayden http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Doc <Doc@s...> wrote: > Both had me do finger tip push ups and then thumb only push ups and use rice jars and sand bags to strenghthen my hands and thumbs. They also had me work with two 5lb steel balls which i rolled around in first one direction and then the other. > > interesting. i hear a lot of this kind of thing with tuina teachers. seems to me the exercises would be good for building strength and stamina but would eliminate a lot of tactile sensitivity and even proprioception could be affected. so one could conceivably lose a lot of palpatory information that might prove useful -- seems to me anyway. then again maybe i'm just a wimp. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Robert Robert Chu wrote: > I don't believe in the distance killing of Yi Zhi Chan at all. I've > spent a lifetime in the martial arts and this is not possible. The > technique of Yi Zhi Chan is to strengthen the fingers so much that > you can kill a person with a strike with your index finger. The > last master of this technique was monk Hai Deng from the Shaolin > temple and this was captured on tape. I doubted the claim that Qigong alone could kill but I remain openminded to that possibility. Voodoo / black magic certainly CAN kill, according to aunts of mine who were nuns in Africa and Malaysia and who came accross it several times. > As for healing, that may be possible with Wai Qi Zhi Liao > (emitting qi treatments). Don't believe all the poo-poo one reads. > Robert I have first-hand experience (as a receiver) that Qi can be transmitted (for example as a sensation of intense heat) over distance from a sender to a receiver. The claim that Yi Zhi Chan / Qigong can kill prompted the question: " Can sufficient Qi be discharged that it can kill the receiver? " But a much more important question for therapists is: " Can sufficient Qi be discharged that it can help the receiver's adaptive systems to heal him/herself? " Robert, have you first-hand experience of emitted Qi being useful in healing? Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi Simon, Chinese Medicine , " wackname " <wackname> wrote: > My tuina teacher is from Shenyang in Liaoning province, My tuina teacher is from the same province - city of Tieling. Very vigorous tuina also but rarely, if ever, does he use the thumbs other than to press certain points like L1. Also, as I mentioned in other posts, he never thinks in terms of tonifying - just breaking up stagnation. He does talk about " getting qi moving again " , by using his own qigong but that is different. Nice to hear about your experiences. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi Robert, > > interesting. i hear a lot of this kind of thing with tuina teachers. seems to me the > exercises would be good for building strength and stamina but would eliminate a lot of > tactile sensitivity and even proprioception could be affected. so one could conceivably > lose a lot of palpatory information that might prove useful -- seems to me anyway. then > again maybe i'm just a wimp. > > rh I would agree with you. I saw some pictures of Ohashi doing thumb exercises, but my teacher recommends against it. What he does is tell us to hold our thumb in such a way that it is at " right angles " and well supported by the bones and joints. Any kind of exercise, as you suggest, would probably stiffen up the muscles and create some stagnation in themselves - thereby reducing sensitivity. So overall, I would say that my thinking is along the same lines at yours. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 RH and Rich, As one who has a reputation for being more able than most to feel the D'Ch'i I must beg to differ. Your theory sounds correct, your argument is well stated. In practice you are not correct. I was trained with thumb pushups, finger tip push ups etc - and I break 20 " of cinder block (some on the list have seen me do so) with my open relaxed hand. No stagnation, no loss of sensation,no loss of tactile sensitivity or proprioception, or ability. no stiffness of muscles. BUT It must be done correctly with proper guidance and excersizes to counter balasnce the external training. Doc Rosen seems to me the > exercises would be good for building strength and stamina but would eliminate a lot of > tactile sensitivity and even proprioception could be affected. so one could conceivably > lose a lot of palpatory information that might prove useful I would agree with you. I saw some pictures of Ohashi doing thumb exercises, but my teacher recommends against it. What he does is tell us to hold our thumb in such a way that it is at " right angles " and well supported by the bones and joints. Any kind of exercise, as you suggest, would probably stiffen up the muscles and create some stagnation in themselves - thereby reducing sensitivity. So overall, I would say that my thinking is along the same lines at yours. " The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 thanks for the clarification doc, i try to keep reminding myself that the most important anatomical structure involved in palpation is the brain.... still i'll leave smashing cinder blocks to you rh Chinese Medicine , Doc <Doc@s...> wrote: > > RH and Rich, > As one who has a reputation for being more able than most to feel the D'Ch'i I must beg to differ. Your theory sounds correct, your argument is well stated. In practice you are not correct. > I was trained with thumb pushups, finger tip push ups etc - and I break 20 " of cinder block (some on the list have seen me do so) with my open relaxed hand. > No stagnation, no loss of sensation,no loss of tactile sensitivity or proprioception, or ability. no stiffness of muscles. > BUT It must be done correctly with proper guidance and excersizes to counter balasnce the external training. > Doc Rosen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 Hi Phil, Yes, I do Qi Gong treatments in my clinic when patients request them, or when I don't have any needles on my person at a place outside the clinic. With regards to sending Qi over a distance for healing, I believe it might be possible. I have had numerous occassions where friends have sent me " healing qi " . Since I have also studied Reiki as well as Buddhist healing arts, this is a part of their traditions as well. Emitting Qi is no secret and out in many books. I learned from several masters and at first I did not believe it, until I practiced it and saw the clinical results. After I learned various systems, I combined and saw the commonality of their approaches. Basically, there are various important training methods: 1) developing the " Qi ball " 2) cultivating yourself through meditation, visualization, purification, qigong, mantras, mudras, etc. 3) Sweeping off the wei qi field of the patient and sending Xie Qi to a disposal site 4) Replenishing the Wei Qi field 5) Tonifying and sedating specific acupoints with the Yi (intention) based on different ailments 6) Balancing and relaxing the body Of course, I prefer acupuncture - I can insert needles in a few minutes and can see more patients. But Wai Qia nd acupuncture go hand in hand. If you have specific questions, feel free to email me. Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD chusauli See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > " " < >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >CC: mMMeeting >RE: Re: tuina - yi zhi chan >Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:46:54 +0100 > >Hi All, & Hi Robert > >Robert Chu wrote: > > I don't believe in the distance killing of Yi Zhi Chan at all. I've > > spent a lifetime in the martial arts and this is not possible. The > > technique of Yi Zhi Chan is to strengthen the fingers so much that > > you can kill a person with a strike with your index finger. The > > last master of this technique was monk Hai Deng from the Shaolin > > temple and this was captured on tape. > >I doubted the claim that Qigong alone could kill but I remain >openminded to that possibility. Voodoo / black magic certainly >CAN kill, according to aunts of mine who were nuns in Africa and >Malaysia and who came accross it several times. > > > As for healing, that may be possible with Wai Qi Zhi Liao > > (emitting qi treatments). Don't believe all the poo-poo one reads. > > Robert > >I have first-hand experience (as a receiver) that Qi can be >transmitted (for example as a sensation of intense heat) over >distance from a sender to a receiver. The claim that Yi Zhi Chan / >Qigong can kill prompted the question: " Can sufficient Qi be >discharged that it can kill the receiver? " > >But a much more important question for therapists is: " Can >sufficient Qi be discharged that it can help the receiver's adaptive >systems to heal him/herself? " > >Robert, have you first-hand experience of emitted Qi being useful in >healing? > >Best regards, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I have seen/experienced practitioners simply touch a person and knock them over I have knocked a total stranger -who believed i could not- back 20' with a very slight tap (in front of twenty thousand witnesses) I break wood and cinder block with a relaxed hand and no physical force to speak of I watched Sifu Chen break roof tyle by simply touching it and with the tiniest of movements but doing these things without touching i relegate to legend everyone who has told me that they know of it happenning says I was told by *** who saw it but never I Saw it as for remote healing East West Journal (i think but might have been New Age) did a study a few years back and found Ch'i Kung effective Ch'i Kung without touching no effect and Reiki no effect I had a patient die from cancer not long ago (I was helping with pain only since cancer is ouside my competence to treat) This patient had been pronounced cured by her Reiki Practitioner who often treated over the phone Doc Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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