Yunnan Baiyao / aural hematomas / Hirudo medicinalis (medicinal leeches)

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

See fascinating discussion of leeches and Yunnan Baiyao, by

Sagiv Ben Yakir DVM <benyakir, who had a

paper on Bio-Zoo-Acupuncture at the Oostende IVAS Congress?

 

Sagiv has been using Yunnan Baiyao to treat haematomas for

circa 6 years, but has been using Hirudo medicinalis (live medicinal

leeches) for the past 2 years.

 

I have edited the discussion slightly to make it easier to follow.

 

Phil asked:

> Does this mean that in YOUR experience leeches are BETTER than

> Yunnan Baiyao in haematoma?

 

Sagiv replied:

> Nowadays, we use Yunnan Paiyao in our clinic only for SMALL aural

> hematoma. Yunnan Paiyao is not efficient enough for haematomas

> involving >50% of the ear. Therefore, we use leeches for every big

> aural hematoma, and that the end of the hematoma.

 

> Colleagues report that dogs with haematoma on one ear usually tend

> to develop haematoma on the OTHER ear later. In contrast, our work

> with leeches to drain the Excess and acupuncture to correct

> concurrent Deficiency in dogs with LARGE haematomas suggests that

> the treatment prevents haematoma forming on the other ear. However,

> we have only 2 years of experience with this. Therefore, we need

> more time to verify this impression.

 

> Also, when treating a small haematoma with Yunnan Baiyao +

> acupuncture for the Deficiency we stop we seem to prevent a future

> hematoma on the other ear. We have circa 6 years' experience in that.

 

Phil asked if one could COMBINE Yunnan Baiyao with leeches to

treat haematoma. Sagiv replied:

> No! We tried that combination in the past, and guess what? The

> leeches refused to suck blood from the ear! It makes you wonder

> again about these little creatures, eh?

 

Having read Sagiv's paper to the IVAS Congress, and seen his

photographs of the leeches in the cat's mouth [to treat FIV], Phil

wrote:

> Successful leech use on the tongues of FIV cats! Man, THAT is

> weird, especially that the leeches seem to " know " the correct

> tongue acupoints to suck!

 

Sagiv replied:

> We put the leeches on the tongue [of the anaesthetised cats]. From

> there, the leeches move to other spots in the mouth cavity. In FIV

> cats, most of the time, leeches attached themselves to the area

> behind (proxi' to !) lower jaw molars. This area relates to ?Fire

> Process. Indeed the area looks like on Excess Fire. We leave the

> leeches to do their work on Excess (Blood Stas & Qi Stag).

>

> However, at the same time, we [use acupuncture to] stimulate the

> Deficient Process [Water, mainly KI]. This makes sense, especially

> in cats, and especially with an immune issues. Routine western

> therapy for FIV in cats is ?steroids. That just increasees the Fire

> Excess, and worsens the KI Deficiency..

 

Phil wrote:

> Do you think that Hirudo could help to diagnose Channel

> imbalances? I had this crazy idea: 1. Immerse the HANDS and FEET of

> a subject to be diagnosed in containers that hold several leeches

> each. 2. Observe the locations that attract the leeches and see if

> they correlate with acupoints that might help the problem

 

Sagiv replied:

> Although we use leeches firstly for therapy, my lecture discussed

> other benefits of leeches. We can use them in a very painful area

> (for their analgesic abilities). Also, due to their well documented

> bacteriostatic abilities, we can use them in badly contaminated

> areas(!), where we CANNOT use acupuncture.

 

> Issue #2 in the lecture was to use leeches to aid Diagnosis. Keep

> in mind that leeches always target the meridian in Excess ! From

> that, using KO Cycle, we can calculate our way to the Deficient

> Process, and treat it also.

 

> Why should we treat BOTH meridians [those with excess and

> deficiency]? When you treat only the Deficiency, you increase Qi in

> ALL processes for a short while. This aggravates the clinical

> situation for the first 24-48 hrs, especially in the Excess

> Process. However, when you treat both the excess (with

> Hirudotherapy) and the Deficiency (with acupuncture) - two

> different techniques - no aggravation occurs, and the cat with FIV

> will eat in a few hrs!

 

> Also, sometimes a specific acupoint (like LI04, Hegu) may shift to

> another place in the body (pathology). The leeches will indicate

> the new location!. For example, TH01 in a horse (usually in the

> middle), may move a bit laterally. The leeches will attach at the

> location on that specific horse. Why is that? IMO it is because,

> in their need to suck blood to exist, leeches attach at the proper

> location of acupoints, with their blood vessels enveloped with a

> sleeve of loose connective tissue (the reason for increased

> electrical conductivity in acupoints).

 

Phil wrote:

> PS: Could lab-raised [pathogen-free] mosquitos be used for the same

> purpose? I have heard [but know of no scientific proof] that

> mosquitos tend to bite parts of the body that " attract " them. Could

> these parts be " reactive " acupoints? If so, could this indicate the

> points & channels that need balancing?

 

Do any of you have observations on which acupoints mosquitos

bite in humans with previously-diagnosed Channel imbalances?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

See fascinating discussion of leeches and Yunnan Baiyao, by

Sagiv Ben Yakir DVM <benyakir, who had a

paper on Bio-Zoo-Acupuncture at the Oostende IVAS Congress?

 

Sagiv has been using Yunnan Baiyao to treat haematomas for

circa 6 years, but has been using Hirudo medicinalis (live medicinal

leeches) for the past 2 years.

 

I have edited the discussion slightly to make it easier to follow.

 

Phil asked:

> Does this mean that in YOUR experience leeches are BETTER than

> Yunnan Baiyao in haematoma?

 

Sagiv replied:

> Nowadays, we use Yunnan Paiyao in our clinic only for SMALL aural

> hematoma. Yunnan Paiyao is not efficient enough for haematomas

> involving >50% of the ear. Therefore, we use leeches for every big

> aural hematoma, and that the end of the hematoma.

 

> Colleagues report that dogs with haematoma on one ear usually tend

> to develop haematoma on the OTHER ear later. In contrast, our work

> with leeches to drain the Excess and acupuncture to correct

> concurrent Deficiency in dogs with LARGE haematomas suggests that

> the treatment prevents haematoma forming on the other ear. However,

> we have only 2 years of experience with this. Therefore, we need

> more time to verify this impression.

 

> Also, when treating a small haematoma with Yunnan Baiyao +

> acupuncture for the Deficiency we stop we seem to prevent a future

> hematoma on the other ear. We have circa 6 years' experience in that.

 

Phil asked if one could COMBINE Yunnan Baiyao with leeches to

treat haematoma. Sagiv replied:

> No! We tried that combination in the past, and guess what? The

> leeches refused to suck blood from the ear! It makes you wonder

> again about these little creatures, eh?

 

Having read Sagiv's paper to the IVAS Congress, and seen his

photographs of the leeches in the cat's mouth [to treat FIV], Phil

wrote:

> Successful leech use on the tongues of FIV cats! Man, THAT is

> weird, especially that the leeches seem to " know " the correct

> tongue acupoints to suck!

 

Sagiv replied:

> We put the leeches on the tongue [of the anaesthetised cats]. From

> there, the leeches move to other spots in the mouth cavity. In FIV

> cats, most of the time, leeches attached themselves to the area

> behind (proxi' to !) lower jaw molars. This area relates to ?Fire

> Process. Indeed the area looks like on Excess Fire. We leave the

> leeches to do their work on Excess (Blood Stas & Qi Stag).

>

> However, at the same time, we [use acupuncture to] stimulate the

> Deficient Process [Water, mainly KI]. This makes sense, especially

> in cats, and especially with an immune issues. Routine western

> therapy for FIV in cats is ?steroids. That just increasees the Fire

> Excess, and worsens the KI Deficiency..

 

Phil wrote:

> Do you think that Hirudo could help to diagnose Channel

> imbalances? I had this crazy idea: 1. Immerse the HANDS and FEET of

> a subject to be diagnosed in containers that hold several leeches

> each. 2. Observe the locations that attract the leeches and see if

> they correlate with acupoints that might help the problem

 

Sagiv replied:

> Although we use leeches firstly for therapy, my lecture discussed

> other benefits of leeches. We can use them in a very painful area

> (for their analgesic abilities). Also, due to their well documented

> bacteriostatic abilities, we can use them in badly contaminated

> areas(!), where we CANNOT use acupuncture.

 

> Issue #2 in the lecture was to use leeches to aid Diagnosis. Keep

> in mind that leeches always target the meridian in Excess ! From

> that, using KO Cycle, we can calculate our way to the Deficient

> Process, and treat it also.

 

> Why should we treat BOTH meridians [those with excess and

> deficiency]? When you treat only the Deficiency, you increase Qi in

> ALL processes for a short while. This aggravates the clinical

> situation for the first 24-48 hrs, especially in the Excess

> Process. However, when you treat both the excess (with

> Hirudotherapy) and the Deficiency (with acupuncture) - two

> different techniques - no aggravation occurs, and the cat with FIV

> will eat in a few hrs!

 

> Also, sometimes a specific acupoint (like LI04, Hegu) may shift to

> another place in the body (pathology). The leeches will indicate

> the new location!. For example, TH01 in a horse (usually in the

> middle), may move a bit laterally. The leeches will attach at the

> location on that specific horse. Why is that? IMO it is because,

> in their need to suck blood to exist, leeches attach at the proper

> location of acupoints, with their blood vessels enveloped with a

> sleeve of loose connective tissue (the reason for increased

> electrical conductivity in acupoints).

 

Phil wrote:

> PS: Could lab-raised [pathogen-free] mosquitos be used for the same

> purpose? I have heard [but know of no scientific proof] that

> mosquitos tend to bite parts of the body that " attract " them. Could

> these parts be " reactive " acupoints? If so, could this indicate the

> points & channels that need balancing?

 

Do any of you have observations on which acupoints mosquitos

bite in humans with previously-diagnosed Channel imbalances?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Here's the 2nd, Brian. Not sure if there were more.

ann

 

 

 

Hi All,

 

See fascinating discussion of leeches and Yunnan Baiyao, by

Sagiv Ben Yakir DVM <benyakir, who had a

paper on Bio-Zoo-Acupuncture at the Oostende IVAS Congress?

 

Sagiv has been using Yunnan Baiyao to treat haematomas for

circa 6 years, but has been using Hirudo medicinalis (live medicinal

leeches) for the past 2 years.

 

I have edited the discussion slightly to make it easier to follow.

 

Phil asked:

> Does this mean that in YOUR experience leeches are BETTER than

> Yunnan Baiyao in haematoma?

 

Sagiv replied:

> Nowadays, we use Yunnan Paiyao in our clinic only for SMALL aural

> hematoma. Yunnan Paiyao is not efficient enough for haematomas

> involving >50% of the ear. Therefore, we use leeches for every big

> aural hematoma, and that the end of the hematoma.

 

> Colleagues report that dogs with haematoma on one ear usually tend

> to develop haematoma on the OTHER ear later. In contrast, our work

> with leeches to drain the Excess and acupuncture to correct

> concurrent Deficiency in dogs with LARGE haematomas suggests that

> the treatment prevents haematoma forming on the other ear. However,

> we have only 2 years of experience with this. Therefore, we need

> more time to verify this impression.

 

> Also, when treating a small haematoma with Yunnan Baiyao +

> acupuncture for the Deficiency we stop we seem to prevent a future

> hematoma on the other ear. We have circa 6 years' experience in that.

 

Phil asked if one could COMBINE Yunnan Baiyao with leeches to

treat haematoma. Sagiv replied:

> No! We tried that combination in the past, and guess what? The

> leeches refused to suck blood from the ear! It makes you wonder

> again about these little creatures, eh?

 

Having read Sagiv's paper to the IVAS Congress, and seen his

photographs of the leeches in the cat's mouth [to treat FIV], Phil

wrote:

> Successful leech use on the tongues of FIV cats! Man, THAT is

> weird, especially that the leeches seem to " know " the correct

> tongue acupoints to suck!

 

Sagiv replied:

> We put the leeches on the tongue [of the anaesthetised cats]. From

> there, the leeches move to other spots in the mouth cavity. In FIV

> cats, most of the time, leeches attached themselves to the area

> behind (proxi' to !) lower jaw molars. This area relates to ?Fire

> Process. Indeed the area looks like on Excess Fire. We leave the

> leeches to do their work on Excess (Blood Stas & Qi Stag).

>

> However, at the same time, we [use acupuncture to] stimulate the

> Deficient Process [Water, mainly KI]. This makes sense, especially

> in cats, and especially with an immune issues. Routine western

> therapy for FIV in cats is ?steroids. That just increasees the Fire

> Excess, and worsens the KI Deficiency..

 

Phil wrote:

> Do you think that Hirudo could help to diagnose Channel

> imbalances? I had this crazy idea: 1. Immerse the HANDS and FEET of

> a subject to be diagnosed in containers that hold several leeches

> each. 2. Observe the locations that attract the leeches and see if

> they correlate with acupoints that might help the problem

 

Sagiv replied:

> Although we use leeches firstly for therapy, my lecture discussed

> other benefits of leeches. We can use them in a very painful area

> (for their analgesic abilities). Also, due to their well documented

> bacteriostatic abilities, we can use them in badly contaminated

> areas(!), where we CANNOT use acupuncture.

 

> Issue #2 in the lecture was to use leeches to aid Diagnosis. Keep

> in mind that leeches always target the meridian in Excess ! From

> that, using KO Cycle, we can calculate our way to the Deficient

> Process, and treat it also.

 

> Why should we treat BOTH meridians [those with excess and

> deficiency]? When you treat only the Deficiency, you increase Qi in

> ALL processes for a short while. This aggravates the clinical

> situation for the first 24-48 hrs, especially in the Excess

> Process. However, when you treat both the excess (with

> Hirudotherapy) and the Deficiency (with acupuncture) - two

> different techniques - no aggravation occurs, and the cat with FIV

> will eat in a few hrs!

 

> Also, sometimes a specific acupoint (like LI04, Hegu) may shift to

> another place in the body (pathology). The leeches will indicate

> the new location!. For example, TH01 in a horse (usually in the

> middle), may move a bit laterally. The leeches will attach at the

> location on that specific horse. Why is that? IMO it is because,

> in their need to suck blood to exist, leeches attach at the proper

> location of acupoints, with their blood vessels enveloped with a

> sleeve of loose connective tissue (the reason for increased

> electrical conductivity in acupoints).

 

Phil wrote:

> PS: Could lab-raised [pathogen-free] mosquitos be used for the same

> purpose? I have heard [but know of no scientific proof] that

> mosquitos tend to bite parts of the body that " attract " them. Could

> these parts be " reactive " acupoints? If so, could this indicate the

> points & channels that need balancing?

 

Do any of you have observations on which acupoints mosquitos

bite in humans with previously-diagnosed Channel imbalances?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm