RE: acne case

August 26, 2004

Hi Jason,etc,

This clients history has been acne for many years, with many forms of hebal

treatments etc applied. So maybe doing the obvious is not beneficial in this

case

Maybe it was the use of too many heat clearers being used which could also

have exacerbated or created the internal weaknesses. I will have to disagree

with you in the treatment because if the pulse and tongue signs and symptoms

are not taken into consideration and only fire toxins etc treated then there

will be an inevitable worsening of his overall constitution.

Certainly a formula that addresses underlying cold with some superficial

heat clearers such as already mentioned ie lian qiao etc with some jing jie

and/or fang feng will be of great benefit. I have treated skin complaints

with exactly this underlying problem with just such a herbal formula.

Because you may not find it easily in dermatolgical texts does not rule out

all possibilities.

I have often found life presents much more complex pictures than things

which i can find it texts : )

Best Wishes

Anita

-

" "

Monday, September 20, 2004 11:00 AM

RE: RE: acne case

>

> _____

>

> Benjamin Hawes [ben_laura]

> Sunday, September 19, 2004 11:38 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: acne case

>

> Just what I was thinking. Jason B is of the opinion that the internal

signs

> are not of value, but I think they are clearly the root, i.e. KD & SP Yang

> insufficient to transform Damp, leading to Damp stagnation and heat toxins

> in the skin.

>

> [Jason]

>

> Just for clarity sake, I never said that internal signs are not of value,

I

> said that looking at the actual acne (external manifestation of the

disease)

> is more important than all the little zang-fu s/s- too hit the nail on

the

> head. This is a common opinion of dermatology experts. One can easily

get

> rapped up in this or that zang-fu, liver stagnation this, yang xu this,

and

> totally miss the boat, which may be happening here. It is again a common

> opinion upon dermatology experts that one must aggressively treat 'the

> branch' while paying attention to things mentioned previously like blood

> stasis. It also is very likely there is extreme heat 'locked in the

> interior' causing the sensation of cold, I would say this is more likely

> that actual yang xu causing the acne especially if it is *red*. I would

also

> say that yang xu causing acne is not very common. Have people seen this

> pattern in dermatology books or journal articles? I would say once one has

> fire-toxin or lung heat or whatever, no matter what the cause, one must

> address this first and foremost.

>

> Assessing the exterior is mandatory in my opinion, and sometimes ignoring

> all but key zang-fu symptoms, otherwise you can easily end of with a

formula

> which seemingly matches the patient but does little for the acne,

especially

> if it is serious. Of course, if the case is mild one has much more

leniency

> to play around with the underlying matrix of the body and hope you push

the

> balance in the right direction and let the body self-correct.

>

> -

>

> I liked your elucidation of the passage of Yang from interior

> to exterior and getting stuck.

>

> Also, Jason is right about the branch being Lung heat with fire toxin,

since

> the lung is the " repository of phlegm " , and thus the skin will collect

that

> Damp if it is not being transformed. Plus, a vacuous " son " (Water/KD) will

> cause an overacting/replete " mother " (Metal/LU), and I'm also guessing

that

> the LI is stagnant due to low Yang & Qi functioning, causing a buildup of

> wastes. Brings to mind adding Rou Cong Rong to the Rx to boost the Yang

> function of the intestines plus raw Da Huang to purge the toxic heat,

based

> on an RX for KD/SP Yang vacuity and heat toxin/damp, unless of course the

> pt. has loose stools. I would expect sluggish stools with his signs,

though,

> so combining small amounts of these intestinal stimulating herbs along

with

> drier damp-transforming herbs could accomplish the purging of heat-toxins

> without causing diarrhea. Maybe use Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan with Sheng Di (not

> Shu Di), Bai Zhu, Rou Cong Rong, Sheng Da Huang, and for the acne some

herbs

> such as Ye Ju Hua, Chi Shao, Lian Qiao, Huang Qin, and Ku Shen, etc.,

> depending on the specific look of the acne (i.e. more damp, or more toxic,

> or more blood stasis).

August 29, 2004

Dear Dr Kaikobad,

It would appear to me if the patient was presenting with shaoyang heat and

LI heat then the underlying condition is vastly different to the already

stated acne case. So in this case, there are definite signs of heat. In

terms of the skin rash it is quite possibly a sign of blood dryness,

(possibly due to long term heat (pathological) in the system) with the

intense itchiness coming from blood dryness or wind in the blood level. I

would also look at some local applications of herbs etc because it may also

be just some expression of heat in the GB meridian it self. Sometimes

bleeding in the local area can remove blockages of heat.

Hope this is of some help

Best Wishes

Anita

-

" homi kaikobad " <aryaone

Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:50 AM

Re: RE: acne case

> Anita wrote:

> > Certainly a formula that addresses underlying cold with some superficial

> > heat clearers such as already mentioned ie lian qiao etc with some jing

> > jie

> > and/or fang feng will be of great benefit. I have treated skin

complaints

> > with exactly this underlying problem with just such a herbal formula.

> >

>

> Would a dry rash with small scales behind the left ear which itches

fiercely

> and has remained chronic in spite of many forms of treatment be helped

with

> what you suggest above?

>

> Rest of the ysmptoms suggest Shaoyang Heat, and Heat in Colon.

>

> I am not an herbalist.

>

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad

September 19, 2004

Just what I was thinking. Jason B is of the opinion that the internal signs

are not of value, but I think they are clearly the root, i.e. KD & SP Yang

insufficient to transform Damp, leading to Damp stagnation and heat toxins

in the skin. I liked your elucidation of the passage of Yang from interior

to exterior and getting stuck.

Also, Jason is right about the branch being Lung heat with fire toxin, since

the lung is the " repository of phlegm " , and thus the skin will collect that

Damp if it is not being transformed. Plus, a vacuous " son " (Water/KD) will

cause an overacting/replete " mother " (Metal/LU), and I'm also guessing that

the LI is stagnant due to low Yang & Qi functioning, causing a buildup of

wastes. Brings to mind adding Rou Cong Rong to the Rx to boost the Yang

function of the intestines plus raw Da Huang to purge the toxic heat, based

on an RX for KD/SP Yang vacuity and heat toxin/damp, unless of course the

pt. has loose stools. I would expect sluggish stools with his signs, though,

so combining small amounts of these intestinal stimulating herbs along with

drier damp-transforming herbs could accomplish the purging of heat-toxins

without causing diarrhea. Maybe use Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan with Sheng Di (not

Shu Di), Bai Zhu, Rou Cong Rong, Sheng Da Huang, and for the acne some herbs

such as Ye Ju Hua, Chi Shao, Lian Qiao, Huang Qin, and Ku Shen, etc.,

depending on the specific look of the acne (i.e. more damp, or more toxic,

or more blood stasis).

Benjamin Hawes, MAOM, Lic. Ac.,

CORTEZ FAMILY ACUPUNCTURE

1430 E. Main Street, Suite #4

Cortez, CO 81321

(970) 565-0230

> ______________________

>

> Message: 7

> Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:14:29 +1000

> " Anita Binnington " <abinnington

> Re: Case of severe acne

>

> Dear Lori,

> What you have here is a classic case of surface deficiency due to

> underlying

> kidney qi deficiency. This is the way to understand this condition: the

> yang

> always moves from the centre of the body to the surface and then out

> through

> the skin. When there is a deficiency of yang then it only moves as far as

> the skin level and then gets stuck, this is also the cause of fever of

> unknown etiologies etc. I am assuming that he has severe acne pustules or

> is

> his acne small and red? Please describe. But anyway his formula must be

> based on a yang tonic with surface clearers. This is definitely a case of

> treating what is probably looking like a toxic heat condition on the

> surface

> with hot herbs, but as you can see his signs and symptoms are all cold and

> deficient. If you can say what the acne looks like then we can modify a

> yang

> tonic formuls for him. ( and no you wont find any theory of this in modern

> TCM but if you check Benskys book of herbal formulas you will find a

> formula

> for skin rash etc in the tonify kidney yang area.

> Best Wishes

> Anita

> -

> " Lori Barns " <loribarns

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Saturday, September 18, 2004 11:42 PM

> Case of severe acne

>

> >

> > Greetings,

> >

> > Have been quietly listening for a while. I have only been practicing for

> a

> couple of years, a small practice. Thought that someone out there might be

> able to give me some guidance on a difficult case. (At least difficult to

> me, this is my first dermatology case that I have treated, counting my

> experience in school.)

> >

> > He is a physically fit 45 year old male, approx 25 year history of

> severe

> acne. Appears mostly on his face, some small outbreaks on chest and legs,

> none on his back. He is usually cold to the touch, hates cold weather.

> Functions best on a restricted diet, staying away from red meat, oils,

> certain fruits and vegetables. This diet was prescribed by a practitioner

> of

> Korean constitutional acupuncture, who told him he was a " Hespera " and

> that

> his Liver was " almost dead. " Experiences night time urination, awakening 2

> to 3 times per night. The only other physical symptom is some low back

> stiffness upon awakening that goes away with movement. He works with

> another

> holistic practitioner that does some Kinesiology with him, was told that

> he

> was healthy except for needing some emotional release, which he did. Was

> told by an endocrinologist about 10 years ago that he had twice the

> testosterone of a teenager.

> >

> > Tongue is swollen, pale with a purplish tine, coat is thin white (some

> greasy white at the base of tongue the first time I saw him, have only

> seen

> him twice). Pulse is weak and thin, especially on the left guan and chi

> positions. Abdomen shows tenderness on left side along ribs.

> >

> > Most pattern differentiation that I have looked up talks up heat in the

> stomach, or damp heat. Neither his tongue or pulse show heat. I suspect a

> kidney/liver yin deficiency from his pulse, but there seems to be very few

> symptoms to confirm this.

> >

> > Any thoughts?

> >

> > Lori Barns, L.Ac.

September 20, 2004

_____

Benjamin Hawes [ben_laura]

Sunday, September 19, 2004 11:38 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: acne case

Just what I was thinking. Jason B is of the opinion that the internal signs

are not of value, but I think they are clearly the root, i.e. KD & SP Yang

insufficient to transform Damp, leading to Damp stagnation and heat toxins

in the skin.

[Jason]

Just for clarity sake, I never said that internal signs are not of value, I

said that looking at the actual acne (external manifestation of the disease)

is more important than all the little zang-fu s/s- too hit the nail on the

head. This is a common opinion of dermatology experts. One can easily get

rapped up in this or that zang-fu, liver stagnation this, yang xu this, and

totally miss the boat, which may be happening here. It is again a common

opinion upon dermatology experts that one must aggressively treat 'the

branch' while paying attention to things mentioned previously like blood

stasis. It also is very likely there is extreme heat 'locked in the

interior' causing the sensation of cold, I would say this is more likely

that actual yang xu causing the acne especially if it is *red*. I would also

say that yang xu causing acne is not very common. Have people seen this

pattern in dermatology books or journal articles? I would say once one has

fire-toxin or lung heat or whatever, no matter what the cause, one must

address this first and foremost.

Assessing the exterior is mandatory in my opinion, and sometimes ignoring

all but key zang-fu symptoms, otherwise you can easily end of with a formula

which seemingly matches the patient but does little for the acne, especially

if it is serious. Of course, if the case is mild one has much more leniency

to play around with the underlying matrix of the body and hope you push the

balance in the right direction and let the body self-correct.

-

I liked your elucidation of the passage of Yang from interior