Herbs - symptom vs. root, was Hep C

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/16/04 12:53:59 PM, brian_s_beard writes:

 

<< So while there seems to be value in taking a particular supplement,

 

would it not be better to also address the pattern differentiation.

 

Or is it? The bottom line is, does it work in the clinic. If anyone

 

has any experiences or thoughts on this I would be interested in

 

hearing them. >>

 

Well, Brian, I am still a student myself (last year at PCOM NY), so my

experience is very limited compared to many people on this list. However, I

feel

what I am learning here makes sense to me - differentiate the pattern and then

begin with a classical formula; from there, make additions and subtractions

based on your individual patient. (Although I might add that even some of my

Chinese teachers occasionally give us " modern formulas " for certain conditions

if

they think they are important and they work.)

 

I'm also interested in hearing what people have to say about individual

herbs. But I don't feel giving individual herbs is really Chinese medicine. It

may be helpful to a patient, and we may want to do it. I think we just need to

keep things clear in our mind - when are we thinking western medicine and when

are we thinking CM (or TCM or CTM).

---roseanne

[Guest guest]

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts or concerns or experiences

regarding the use of herbs. In particular, what's the difference

between prescribing a formula based prescription rather than throwing

together a bunch of herbs that may have been individually been shown

to have some effect.

 

The recent thread on Hep C had most suggestions being - everybody w/

Hep C try this thing with no discussion about syndrome

differentiation. Does this concern anyone?

 

And while a particular supplement may be shown to have results, if

done in an imbalanced fashion may create a further imbalance

elsewhere while not directing the root pattern to an overall state of

harmony.

 

So while there seems to be value in taking a particular supplement,

would it not be better to also address the pattern differentiation.

Or is it? The bottom line is, does it work in the clinic. If anyone

has any experiences or thoughts on this I would be interested in

hearing them.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

_____

 

briansbeard [brian_s_beard]

Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:51 AM

Chinese Medicine

Herbs - symptom vs. root, was Hep C

 

 

 

 

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts or concerns or experiences

regarding the use of herbs. In particular, what's the difference

between prescribing a formula based prescription rather than throwing

together a bunch of herbs that may have been individually been shown

to have some effect.

 

[Jason]

 

Quite simply, many herb functions are not only understood from a classical

perspective, but have been confirmed from western pharmacological research,

to only have given functions when combined with other herbs. I think it is

a clear from the Chinese that they do not purport that herbs have functions

in and of themselves. The majority of the functions listed in i.e. Bensky's

Materia Medica are assumed to only occur in combination with other herbs.

Now if you talking purely pharmacological actions with no regard to Chinese

theory,, then you are on your own, and herbs in this realm may or may nor

have function once you start combining things. But throwing a bunch of herbs

for individual function is a style (vs. based on classical formulas), but

usually the Chinese that think this way are throwing together dui yao's

instead of *just* individuals. Hope that helps,

 

 

 

* -

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

So what I'm getting from this is, coming up with an herbal

prescription could be done as a formula based prescription or putting

together appropriate dui yao combinations - either of these methods

would use some herbal theory to come up with something that would

bring out the desired effect from the combination.

 

So originally I modified xiao yao wan and added herbs that were

supposed to specifically target hep C. I guess what you're saying is

I'm probably on my own for this kind of approach, unless it just

happens to work. Which leads me to ask, is this an appropiate way to

come up with a formula? If the person had constipation I'd add some

herbs to help with that, why not hep C?

 

I see your point about the western appropach also using combinations.

The supplements that have been mentioned here look like multiple

formulas put together which probably have some synergistic effect.

They just don't differentiate what underlying TCM syndrome is going

on. I wonder if things could be improved if this were done.

 

thanks,

 

--brian

 

> [Jason]

>

> Quite simply, many herb functions are not only understood from a

classical

> perspective, but have been confirmed from western pharmacological

research,

> to only have given functions when combined with other herbs. I

think it is

> a clear from the Chinese that they do not purport that herbs have

functions

> in and of themselves. The majority of the functions listed in i.e.

Bensky's

> Materia Medica are assumed to only occur in combination with other

herbs.

> Now if you talking purely pharmacological actions with no regard to

Chinese

> theory,, then you are on your own, and herbs in this realm may or

may nor

> have function once you start combining things. But throwing a bunch

of herbs

> for individual function is a style (vs. based on classical

formulas), but

> usually the Chinese that think this way are throwing together dui

yao's

> instead of *just* individuals. Hope that helps,

>

[Guest guest]

This definitely concerns me.

 

While there are diseases that can be treated with specific protocols,

Hep C has many stages and manifestations over time that require much

more differentiation in order to treat effectively.

 

Chinese medicine is largely the practice of pattern differentiation, so

to ignore this is at our own peril. Without it, only symptomatic

relief is possible within our framework.

 

 

On Sep 16, 2004, at 9:50 AM, briansbeard wrote:

 

> The recent thread on Hep C had most suggestions being - everybody w/

> Hep C try this thing with no discussion about syndrome

> differentiation. Does this concern anyone?