Guest guest Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Dear Mike and Z'ev, Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Rich, > > 1) first of all, evils are categorized as vacuity evils, repletion > evils, destroyer evils, pestilence, epidemic qi, etc. Thank you for some of the categories, but what I am trying to understand is how are these categories arrived at and how do I know that the taxomy is complete. For example, Wiseman in Fundamentals of (a book which I have very littel fondness for :-) ) never defines " Evils Qi " as far as I can tell, but does define Evil as: " Evils " invade and " strike " the body, some evils are treated by " attacks " . " Frankly I have no idea what that means. Is " Evil " a substance with the innate quality of " Evil " . Is it " Evil " before it stikes? Is it at the moment it strikes and becomes and " event " and does harm? Suppose it enters (as many flu viruses enter human bodies, as does no harm. Is it still " Evil " ? Or do we wait maybe a few years when it may become " harmful " and then call it Evil? I would appreciate clarification. What exactly and precisely is Evil Qi. Messages Messages Help Reply | Forward | View Source | Unwrap Lines Mike Liaw <mikeliaw> Messages Messages Help Reply | Forward | View Source | Unwrap Lines Message 9131 of 9138 | Previous | Next [ Up Thread ] Message Index Msg # Mike Liaw <mikeliaw> Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:18 pm >There are people who can sense the Xie Qi even with their hands >tied to the back. They use only their eyes at a distance. The Qi >detected in this way is beyond coldness, IMO. That's all I am trying >to say. I agree. Which is why I personally prefer the notion of " irregular qi " . For me, it is the specific event where a pattern of qi is formed within the " human body " that is detrimental to health of a life. Qi itself, cannot be detrimental, since all life is composed of qi. However, patterns of qi may not be conducive to life. This can be called " irregular qi patterns " (just like irregular waves) and can be " seen " in many different ways depending upon the skills of the practitioner. This is much different from the concept of " Evil Qi " being some sort of inherently bad form of qi. How can it be before it does something? What is good for one person (e.g. hot weather) may be very poor for someone else. Is the " heat " Evil? I guess it depends upon one's point of view. Personally, I hate hot weather - it makes me feel sluggish and gives me a headache. My wife, on the other hand loves it. Makes hre feel great. Evil for one, Heaven Sent for another. :-) I love the world of Yin and Yang. :-) >Your quoting Zhuang Zi, where the discussion is at a philosophical, >to use it in a more concrete level is not something I would engage to >discuss here. I must admit that I have never read anywhere that there is a distinction between " philosophical " qi and " medical " qi. For example, in Fundamentals, it is stated: " The ancient Chinese perceived the existence of qi and believed it to be the basic substance by which all movements and mutations of all phenomena in the unviverse arise. In the context of medicine, it is believed to be the fundamental constituent of the body. The movements and mutations of qi explain all physiologic acitivity. " From this, I can see no difference between the medical and philosophical uses of qi. (Thank goodness since the medical was derived from the philosophical). There appears to be one " qi " with many kinds of movements and mutations. Sort of like light where there is only one " light " with many variations (e.g., colors) caused by changes in form and movement of the the " light waves " . Actually, this is pretty much String Theory. :-) Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 On 16/09/2004, at 11:46 AM, Rich wrote: > Dear Mike and Z'ev, > > Chinese Medicine , " " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Rich, > > > > 1) first of all, evils are categorized as vacuity evils, repletion > > evils, destroyer evils, pestilence, epidemic qi, etc. > > Thank you for some of the categories, but what I am trying to > understand is how are these categories arrived at and how do I know > that the taxomy is complete. > > For example, Wiseman in Fundamentals of (a book which > I have very littel fondness for :-) ) never defines " Evils Qi " as far > as I can tell, but does define Evil as: " Evils " invade and " strike " > the body, some evils are treated by " attacks " . " Frankly I have no idea > what that means. Is " Evil " a substance with the innate quality of > " Evil " . Is it " Evil " before it stikes? Is it at the moment it strikes > and becomes and " event " and does harm? Suppose it enters (as many flu > viruses enter human bodies, as does no harm. Is it still " Evil " ? Or do > we wait maybe a few years when it may become " harmful " and then call > it Evil? I would appreciate clarification. What exactly and precisely > is Evil Qi. > Hi Rich, I enjoy your posts and feel you have a lot to offer regarding a different perspective on Chinese medicine. You make me think, and on more than one occasion have helped me understand a concept from a different perspective via your fascinating analogies. However, I must say that I am increasingly getting the impression that you are deliberately confusing and avoiding any answers that are given to you regarding the TCM concepts of xie qi/evil qi, so you can view your practice clearly through the very narrow lense of your particular school of qigong/anmo/tuina. It is beginning to approach the level of worship of one particular " teacher and style " , something more common in martial arts circles than professional Chinese medicine. I do not mean this as an insult; just offering a rather blunt opinion with the best intentions........with the wish that you may step back from one way of knowing to view another objectively for a few moments. Xie qi is ANY type of qi that influences the body in a negative way; this includes your concept of " cold qi " . The term evil qi stands in a direct yin/yang dichotomy to zheng qi/right qi. It really is that simple. Categorising evil qi beyond this point is used to discover the disease cause, probably pathogenesis and prognosis and help us decide how to best resolve the evil and restore balance. This is achieved through understanding the general natures and characteristics of evil qi as tried and tested for over 2000 years and leads us to the treatment principles and modality options best for one particular patient, at one particular time. Evil qi can be external (6 excesses or pestilential qi) or internal or miscellaneous (trauma, poisonous bites etc) and includes qi stagnation food stagnation, phlegm, blood stasis etc. . Again, the term evil is only used to separate these influences/aetiologies/pathologies from the right qi of the body. Evil qi and its subtypes are only used to convey meaning of the particular nature of a imbalance to better guide treatment. Reducing this to one term such as " irregular " or " cold " misses the entire point of differential diagnosis and treatment based on pattern discrimination which are the foundation stones of professional TCM. Ignoring the variants of evil qi/disease cause oversimplifies these various aetiologies, and prevent us from knowing the pathologies, possible prognosis and outcomes of a disease and leaves us (herbalists in particular) without an aim or method to help our pateints. As far as the Wiseman text you refer to..........try reading pgs 77-88 with an open mind and take it for what it says; at least initially. What I mean is; empty your cup, take-in and truly understand what is being conveyed there before you argue against basic TCM theory. I really think you may find much more in common there than you currently feel. With best wishes, Steve Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Hi Steve, > Evil qi and its subtypes are only used to convey meaning of the > particular nature of a imbalance to better guide treatment. Is evil qi that which causes and imbalance or is it the imbalance itself? > Ignoring the > variants of evil qi/disease cause oversimplifies these various > aetiologies, and prevent us from knowing the pathologies, possible > prognosis and outcomes of a disease and leaves us (herbalists in > particular) without an aim or method to help our pateints. May or may not. Depends upon how one approaches the endeavor. There are all kinds of ways to select herbs and acupuncture. TCM schools suggest one way - or do they? I knew a herbalist who use to prescribe herbs based upon " sensing " and " intuition " - in the same manner that some acupuncturists make their point selections. > As far as the Wiseman text you refer to..........try reading pgs >77-88 From this, P.78, Fundamentals seems to take the viewpoint that " evils " are only " evil " when they cause disease: " The ancient Chinese observed six different enviornmental conditions: wind, cold, summerheat, dampness, dryness, and fire, generally known as the six qi (six environmental qi). Only when they cause sickness are they refered to as the six excesses (six environmental excesses). " Fair enough. So the environmental conditions (i.e., the qi that surrounds us) are only " evil " when they cause disease within us. In other words, the quality (goodness or evil) of the qi can only be determined either being " good " or " evil " , after it has combined with the qi in our own bodily system and created an effect. For example, someone may live dryness while someone else may become very sick. Given that the qi that is entering the body can be either " good " or " evil " , I would rather not judge it. :-) It's just me. I prefer to be tolerant and not pre-judge. :-) So, I prefer to call the qi " irregular " qi. That is, qi that can cause an " imbalance " by creating an obstruction. For me, this definition works everywhere - not just in TCM. A sound hitting an eardrum may be quite relaxing for one person (I love Neil Diamond) or quite disquieting to another person (my son hates his music :-) ). The qi entering my ear " harmonized " with my qi and therefore, for me, was " regular " . For my son, it created an obstruction (in his mind) and as a result became very " unsettled " , until he was able to rid himself of the obstruction - by telling me to shut of the car dvd player. :-) Then he was able to resume a natural balance. :-) Life can be so simple sometimes. :-) Qi is really no different from quanta or superstrings. Just " vibrations " (waves) of the Mind. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 > > For example, Wiseman in Fundamentals of (a book which > I have very littel fondness for :-) ) never defines " Evils Qi " as far > as I can tell, but does define Evil as: " Evils " invade and " strike " > the body, some evils are treated by " attacks " . " Frankly I have no idea > what that means. Is " Evil " a substance with the innate quality of > " Evil " . Is it " Evil " before it stikes? Is it at the moment it strikes > and becomes and " event " and does harm? Suppose it enters (as many flu > viruses enter human bodies, as does no harm. Is it still " Evil " ? Or do > we wait maybe a few years when it may become " harmful " and then call > it Evil? I would appreciate clarification. What exactly and precisely > is Evil Qi. > Depend, some time, or/and some condition, " Evil Qi " is the source of health and strengthening. Guigen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Dear Guigen > > Depend, some time, or/and some condition, " Evil Qi " is the source of health and strengthening. > > Guigen Yes, this is how I see it. " Evil qi " is the way that Nature (the Dao?) informs us of " problems in our Life " , so that we bring Attention to it and make it healthier and stronger. If not for " Evil Qi " then " Weaknesses " just become weaker until the Life collapses. So it is not so " Evil " after all - I think. It is actually quite Nice Qi. :-) Everything in life is a Paradox. That which makes us weak makes us strong. :-) Thank you for commenting. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 On 18/09/2004, at 8:11 AM, Rich wrote: > Hi Steve, > >> Evil qi and its subtypes are only used to convey meaning of the >> particular nature of a imbalance to better guide treatment. > > Is evil qi that which causes and imbalance or is it the imbalance > itself? > > Depends on the balance between the evil and right. Pestilential evil qi tends to cause the imbalance itself (eg. ebola ); whereas normal weather conditions can take advantage of a pre-existing imbalance from a previous or concurrent evil. >> Ignoring the >> variants of evil qi/disease cause oversimplifies these various >> aetiologies, and prevent us from knowing the pathologies, possible >> prognosis and outcomes of a disease and leaves us (herbalists in >> particular) without an aim or method to help our pateints. > > May or may not. Depends upon how one approaches the endeavor. There > are all kinds of ways to select herbs and acupuncture. TCM schools > suggest one way - or do they? I knew a herbalist who use to prescribe > herbs based upon " sensing " and " intuition " - in the same manner that > some acupuncturists make their point selections. > Everything in life and death can be proved wrong by an exception.....get over it. We need a generally correct starting point for our own growth beyond the basic. But one must KNOW the general before arguing every opinion with an exception. I know qigong masters, herbalists, acupuncturist etc. who can't fix anything beyond the placebo effect.....it has nothing to do with the underlying theory of TCM, but their ability to recal, understand and use in the proper manner. Really, you are still trying to confuse yourself about the theories that ARE accepted by the professional. I suggest you take up your argument about the importance of syndromes with any experienced doctor of Chinese medicine. They may interpret the same information through their own filters, but you will find they have a far larger educational background to base this upon. " Irregular qi " or " cold qi " may be the over simplistic terms they use to simply it for you, but it is not the real thinking process they use to design a treatment for a patient......... I have not comment on " psychic " herbalists........... >> As far as the Wiseman text you refer to..........try reading pgs >> >77-88 > > From this, P.78, Fundamentals seems to take the viewpoint that " evils " > are only " evil " when they cause disease: > > " The ancient Chinese observed six different environmental conditions: > wind, cold, summerheat, dampness, dryness, and fire, generally known > as the six qi (six environmental qi). Only when they cause sickness > are they refered to as the six excesses (six environmental > excesses)........... > " > > Given that the qi that is entering the body can be either " good " or > " evil " , I would rather not judge it. :-) It's just me. I prefer to be > tolerant and not pre-judge. :-) So, I prefer to call the qi > " irregular " qi. That is, qi that can cause an " imbalance " by creating > an obstruction. > The definition of the term " evil qi " is not the meaning of evil YOU place on it. Everything in context rich........ This is the classic example of a westerner taking a Chinese term translated into English and applying the exact meaning of that English term they perviously understood. ..........this is why there are dictionaries and glossaries in TCM.....to try to stop people doing this. They have failed miserably in your case however. I understand that it can be difficult to look at a chinese term translated into english and understand it as the original chinese meaning. But as a professinal we must, otherwise we are doing nobody any favours. There is rarely a one to one translation available between chinese and english.......so a dictionary or glossary is used to define the meaning of the term and how it is used in the context of TCM. There is nothing " irregular " about qi either if we want to analyse the English meaning........all types of qi are natural and regular. How they influence the body is what we are trying to use the term for, nothing more, nothing less. Qi is neither good nor bad in itself, the terms are just ways of creating temporary artificial separation to allow a doctor to analyse a condition and decide how to correct the imbalance. So Rich, please forget you preconceived ideas of what evil means in everyday English, and understand the term in CONTEXT to a profession when discussing or reading about the PROFESSION. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 _____ Rich [rfinkelstein] are they refered to as the six excesses (six environmental excesses). " Fair enough. So the environmental conditions (i.e., the qi that surrounds us) are only " evil " when they cause disease within us. In other words, the quality (goodness or evil) of the qi can only be determined either being " good " or " evil " , after it has combined with the qi in our own bodily system and created an effect. For example, someone may live dryness while someone else may become very sick. Given that the qi that is entering the body can be either " good " or " evil " , I would rather not judge it. :-) It's just me. I prefer to be tolerant and not pre-judge. :-) So, I prefer to call the qi " irregular " qi. That is, qi that can cause an " imbalance " by creating an obstruction. [Jason] I really had no intention of getting into this one, but before I post I have 2 questions for Rich 1) what is your training, did you graduate from a TCM or CM school somewhere in the world? 2) Do you read or speak Chinese? - I just want to know what level of people I am dealing with it. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 The ability to 'sense' or 'intuit' must be based on a solid knowledge base. A great jazz pianist may improvise, but without great discipline and training, only noise will come from one's fingers when they try to play. On Sep 17, 2004, at 3:11 PM, Rich wrote: > May or may not. Depends upon how one approaches the endeavor. There > are all kinds of ways to select herbs and acupuncture. TCM schools > suggest one way - or do they? I knew a herbalist who use to prescribe > herbs based upon " sensing " and " intuition " - in the same manner that > some acupuncturists make their point selections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Rich, I think I already answered this one in a previous post, so I don't see any reason to go there again. On Sep 15, 2004, at 6:46 PM, Rich wrote: > For example, Wiseman in Fundamentals of (a book which > I have very littel fondness for :-) ) never defines " Evils Qi " as far > as I can tell, but does define Evil as: " Evils " invade and " strike " > the body, some evils are treated by " attacks " . " Frankly I have no idea > what that means. Is " Evil " a substance with the innate quality of > " Evil " . Is it " Evil " before it stikes? Is it at the moment it strikes > and becomes and " event " and does harm? Suppose it enters (as many flu > viruses enter human bodies, as does no harm. Is it still " Evil " ? Or do > we wait maybe a few years when it may become " harmful " and then call > it Evil? I would appreciate clarification. What exactly and precisely > is Evil Qi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Jason, I have nothing more to say on this subject other than there is an enormous amount of semantic and conceptual illogic in " Fundamentals of " and most other TCM texts. The reasons for this is in the way TCM was conceived. Read it for yourself. If you do not find it, then fine. I certainly have. My written source for information are the classics which are consistent within themselves but certainly not consistent between each other. Then it is up to experience to figure things out. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " " <@c...> wrote: > > > > > _____ > > Rich [rfinkelstein@a...] > > are they refered to as the six excesses (six environmental excesses). " > > Fair enough. So the environmental conditions (i.e., the qi that > surrounds us) are only " evil " when they cause disease within us. In > other words, the quality (goodness or evil) of the qi can only be > determined either being " good " or " evil " , after it has combined with > the qi in our own bodily system and created an effect. For example, > someone may live dryness while someone else may become very sick. > Given that the qi that is entering the body can be either " good " or > " evil " , I would rather not judge it. :-) It's just me. I prefer to be > tolerant and not pre-judge. :-) So, I prefer to call the qi > " irregular " qi. That is, qi that can cause an " imbalance " by creating > an obstruction. > > > > [Jason] > > > > I really had no intention of getting into this one, but before I post I have > 2 questions for Rich 1) what is your training, did you graduate from a TCM > or CM school somewhere in the world? 2) Do you read or speak Chinese? - I > just want to know what level of people I am dealing with it. > > > > - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 I am sure it seems this way to those who have no professional education and try to read it with everyday English skills and who refuse to ever learn a words meaning either in definition or context in such texts. Incidentally; .what are your written sources for the classics? - A word for word translation with contextual commentary from pasts physicians; - Or conversational texts simplified for the western reader which gloss over the internal contradictions, difficulties and age-old debating points that are myriad in the classics from one chapter to the next? Steve On 19/09/2004, at 10:10 PM, Rich wrote: > Jason, > > I have nothing more to say on this subject other than there is an > enormous amount of semantic and conceptual illogic in " Fundamentals of > " and most other TCM texts. The reasons for this is in > the way TCM was conceived. Read it for yourself. If you do not find > it, then fine. I certainly have. My written source for information are > the classics which are consistent within themselves but certainly not > consistent between each other. Then it is up to experience to figure > things out. > > Regards, > Rich > > Chinese Medicine , " " > <@c...> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Rich [rfinkelstein@a...] >> >> are they refered to as the six excesses (six environmental excesses). " >> >> Fair enough. So the environmental conditions (i.e., the qi that >> surrounds us) are only " evil " when they cause disease within us. In >> other words, the quality (goodness or evil) of the qi can only be >> determined either being " good " or " evil " , after it has combined with >> the qi in our own bodily system and created an effect. For example, >> someone may live dryness while someone else may become very sick. >> Given that the qi that is entering the body can be either " good " or >> " evil " , I would rather not judge it. :-) It's just me. I prefer to be >> tolerant and not pre-judge. :-) So, I prefer to call the qi >> " irregular " qi. That is, qi that can cause an " imbalance " by creating >> an obstruction. >> >> >> >> [Jason] >> >> >> >> I really had no intention of getting into this one, but before I > post I have >> 2 questions for Rich 1) what is your training, did you graduate > from a TCM >> or CM school somewhere in the world? 2) Do you read or speak > Chinese? - I >> just want to know what level of people I am dealing with it. >> >> >> >> - >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Rich, Why do you consistently avoid the question of your education and/or qualifications? It would be common courtesy to answer these questions which have be asked of you by myself previously and more recently by Jason. Especially on a forum for professional discourse. Curious, Steve On 19/09/2004, at 10:10 PM, Rich wrote: > Jason, > > I have nothing more to say on this subject other than there is an > enormous amount of semantic and conceptual illogic in " Fundamentals of > " and most other TCM texts. The reasons for this is in > the way TCM was conceived. Read it for yourself. If you do not find > it, then fine. I certainly have. My written source for information are > the classics which are consistent within themselves but certainly not > consistent between each other. Then it is up to experience to figure > things out. > > Regards, > Rich > > Chinese Medicine , " " > <@c...> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Rich [rfinkelstein@a...] >> >> are they refered to as the six excesses (six environmental excesses). " >> >> Fair enough. So the environmental conditions (i.e., the qi that >> surrounds us) are only " evil " when they cause disease within us. In >> other words, the quality (goodness or evil) of the qi can only be >> determined either being " good " or " evil " , after it has combined with >> the qi in our own bodily system and created an effect. For example, >> someone may live dryness while someone else may become very sick. >> Given that the qi that is entering the body can be either " good " or >> " evil " , I would rather not judge it. :-) It's just me. I prefer to be >> tolerant and not pre-judge. :-) So, I prefer to call the qi >> " irregular " qi. That is, qi that can cause an " imbalance " by creating >> an obstruction. >> >> >> >> [Jason] >> >> >> >> I really had no intention of getting into this one, but before I > post I have >> 2 questions for Rich 1) what is your training, did you graduate > from a TCM >> or CM school somewhere in the world? 2) Do you read or speak > Chinese? - I >> just want to know what level of people I am dealing with it. >> >> >> >> - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Bravo Steve . Finely someone question the professional background of someone ho claims to know everything better than others. Regards H.Peter Centro de Medicina Oriental Acupunctura,Laserterapia,Shiatsu, Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer 351 269 827272 +351 967 044284 medoriental ---- Chinese Medicine 09/19/04 15:35:22 Chinese Medicine Re: What is " Evil Qi " in was Use Caution Rich, Why do you consistently avoid the question of your education and/or qualifications? It would be common courtesy to answer these questions which have be asked of you by myself previously and more recently by Jason. Especially on a forum for professional discourse. Curious, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Rich, I too would appreciate knowing the answers to Jason's questions. It really does help to understand someones background in this type of forum. Doc Rosen > > > > I really had no intention of getting into this one, but before I > post I have > > 2 questions for Rich 1) what is your training, did you graduate > from a TCM > > or CM school somewhere in the world? 2) Do you read or speak > Chinese? - I > > just want to know what level of people I am dealing with it. > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Rich, Your msg. has nothing to do with my questions, therefore I can only assume the following: a) you have no professional education in TCM. b) You do not read Chinese Also you make the claims that TCM is illogical. Which is silly to me and to every TCM doctor I have met from China, Taiwan, and the US. It is extremely logical, but I can see the confusion if you have no education. You have claimed the superiority of QiGong to fundamental TCM therapies without any ounce of evidence. I found your posts arrogant and condescending and agree with everything Steven pointed out. You can hide behind some semantical word game, but I interpreted what was said just like Steven and others. Furthermore, You have zero authority to a) make judgments on TCM, b) make any comment on theory or terminology IMO. You have never studied it and do not have the basic skills even to understand the historical texts that you claim to be basing your thoughts on, nor have access to Chinese sources,. It sounds like you can't even understand TCM 101 Wiseman's Fundamental - which is a great intro text. Unless you can prove you are channeling ZZJ then really I have no reason to take anything you say seriously. I also wonder why you even are on this list? Why not join a qigong list? I personally wish that this list would consider making this a professional list or sensor those that have zero authority from clogging up the bandwidth. - _____ Rich [rfinkelstein] Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:11 AM Chinese Medicine Re: What is " Evil Qi " in was Use Caution * Jason, I have nothing more to say on this subject other than there is an enormous amount of semantic and conceptual illogic in " Fundamentals of " and most other TCM texts. The reasons for this is in the way TCM was conceived. Read it for yourself. If you do not find it, then fine. I certainly have. My written source for information are the classics which are consistent within themselves but certainly not consistent between each other. Then it is up to experience to figure things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi, Not better ... different. I never think in terms of better. That is one of the things I learned in my life. Another thing I learned is what people say about others is really a mirror of what they think about themselves. That is why they " notice it " . For this reason, I don't criticize others on forums. I would just be criticizing myself. I rather do this in private. :-) Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " Dr.H.Peter " <medoriental@h...> wrote: > Bravo Steve . > > Finely someone question the professional background of someone ho > claims > to know everything better than others. > > Regards > H.Peter > > Centro de Medicina Oriental > Acupunctura,Laserterapia,Shiatsu, > Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer > 351 269 827272 +351 967 044284 > medoriental@i... > ---- > > Chinese Medicine > 09/19/04 15:35:22 > Chinese Medicine > Re: What is " Evil Qi " in was Use Caution > > Rich, > > Why do you consistently avoid the question of your education and/or > qualifications? It would be common courtesy to answer these questions > which have be asked of you by myself previously and more recently by > Jason. Especially on a forum for professional discourse. > > Curious, > > Steve > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi Jason, Thanks for taking the time to voice your opinions on this. Unfortunately, it seems that unless the moderators take direct action....Rich is here to stay with no change in attitude or willingness to listen. Best Wishes, Steve On 20/09/2004, at 11:43 AM, wrote: > Rich, > > > > Your msg. has nothing to do with my questions, therefore I can only > assume > the following: > > > > a) you have no professional education in TCM. > > b) You do not read Chinese > > > > Also you make the claims that TCM is illogical. Which is silly to me > and to > every TCM doctor I have met from China, Taiwan, and the US. It is > extremely > logical, but I can see the confusion if you have no education. You > have > claimed the superiority of QiGong to fundamental TCM therapies without > any > ounce of evidence. I found your posts arrogant and condescending and > agree with everything Steven pointed out. You can hide behind some > semantical word game, but I interpreted what was said just like Steven > and > others. > > > > Furthermore, You have zero authority to a) make judgments on TCM, b) > make > any comment on theory or terminology IMO. You have never studied it > and do > not have the basic skills even to understand the historical texts that > you > claim to be basing your thoughts on, nor have access to Chinese > sources,. > It sounds like you can't even understand TCM 101 Wiseman's Fundamental > - > which is a great intro text. Unless you can prove you are channeling > ZZJ > then really I have no reason to take anything you say seriously. I > also > wonder why you even are on this list? Why not join a qigong list? > > > > I personally wish that this list would consider making this a > professional > list or sensor those that have zero authority from clogging up the > bandwidth. > > > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 This list is open to all healthcare professional from whatever background. What I do state as I said in an important message just the other day, is that members may only post messages where they have a good educational background in. Otherwise, if they do not, then they should simply ask questions to clarify the correct TCM thinking and terminology, which is pretty much well established now, although a few idiosyncrasies still exist. Kind regards Attilio I personally wish that this list would consider making this a professional list or sensor those that have zero authority from clogging up the bandwidth. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi Attillio, Fair enough. I will limit my comments to Tuina and bodywork in general, as well as qigong (health and medicial). Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Where is courtesy? The lighter touch, the softer word which says all but does not bruise? We be healers, and yet may maim in speech and abrade by word. To think that the vulnerable patient will come to the likes of us and expect to be healed, or even listened to in kindness and generous decorum. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " Steven Slater " <laozhongyi <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 20, 2004 2:12 AM Re: What is " Evil Qi " in was Use Caution > Hi Jason, > > Thanks for taking the time to voice your opinions on this. > Unfortunately, it seems that unless the moderators take direct > action....Rich is here to stay with no change in attitude or > willingness to listen. > > > Best Wishes, > > Steve > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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