Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Rich, I understand that your concern is that we don't prevent skilled practitioners from practicing in a certain country regardless of their ability to speak the local language, because your experience has been that if a practitioner is truly skilled, they do not need to communicate verbally with the patient for treatment... Now, I am the type of patient (and practitioner) that requires understanding and interaction.. I believe that we are our own best healers and that the best practitioners guide their patients, not attempt to do it for them. I am a big believer that we must participate fully in our own healing if we hope to truly become healthy. Just establishing my perspective, but i am only one person, and I also think an important aspect of healing is choice - we must be able to choose the guide that most inspires us, and that is different for everyone.. so am thus open to the idea that it is possible to not communicate verbally with your patients if you are especially skilled and inspirational.. and since your experience has been so...... we will go from there. I do not wish to prevent visiting practitioners from teaching in this country, nor do I wish to walk into every current practitioner's office and test their level of local language mastery or even quiz their patients and ask if they feel the language barrier is a barrier in treatment. What I am saying is that if you choose to come to this country to *study*, as in travel from your home country to learn the medicine in an English speaking country, I don't quite understand how you can expect the entire system to bend over backwards to accomodate you. If you wanted to *study* in your home language, why not study in China or Korea? If you feel, for whatever reason, that you would prefer to study and then practice out here (because as far as I know, they do not accept American TCM Masters Degrees in China or Korea), then you are agreeing to be a part of an English-speaking community of practitioners. And then you run into the same problems I outlined in previous posts of being unable to interact with English speaking patients while you're learning the critical skills you will need to someday be a practitioner who doesn't need to " communicate verbally " with your patients if that's the kind of practitioner you'd like to be.. and also unable to interact with your peers.. including the Korean students (if you're Chinese) and vice-versa. And, veering off on probably a rather touchy subject... is it even ethical to expect to be an island unto yourself as a health-care practitioner? I can't believe that what you're saying is that just because you're a Chinese or Korean national you will have some preternatural grasp of the medicine and not need communication skills including a grasp of the local language to practice.. right? Or that non-English speaking practitioners are inherently better than English speaking ones? And if you really did believe that, do you believe that learning to speak English would somehow harm their ability to practice? Because hey, even if it were true that non-English speaking practitioners are better, isn't that even more of a reason to ask that if they come to this country, they participate in the CTM community at least to the point where they can interact with peers and spread the wealth? If you go by some other route, namely get your education in a foreign country and have it transferred over here to practice, I do not deem to get involved in your business, although i still think it is better to have a grasp of the local language. I am talking strictly of addressing this at the University level. And to Steven, thanks for your points. I was about to respond to that same post, and then read further.. you hit every point I was planning to make. :> And Attilio, thanks for the input.. :> Best, Nadia Rich said: > >I am only suggesting that the client/patient be allowed to make the >final decision on whether " communication " is adequate. I know of many >practitioners who speak beautiful English and have no communication >skills at all. At least, that is what I have observed. I also know of >Chinese speaking practitioners who do a marvelous job of diagnosis (in >whatever approach they use) and are able to find effective ways of to >communicate with their patients and which the patients do not at all >find a problem. > >Usually, I have found, patients are most concerned with getting well >and like to choose their practitioners that they feel most comfortable >with. Many times, they choose practitioners, who seem to be having >great success with friends and/or acquaintences and who happen to be >trained trained in China with many, many years of experiences in a >wide range of Chinese modalities. I think that if this practitioner is >achieving these successes then it should be up to the client/patient >to decide whether English is or isn't an impediment to their regaining >good health. For many people, the language aspect is no obstacle at >all - including myself. :-) I am most interested in ensuring that >client/patients have full access to the healthcare that is most >suitable for their situation. > >Now, if someone can show me a well orchestrated study that clearly >shows that patients here in the U.S. are getting worse care from >non-English speaking practitioners, that would be a different story. >But suppose it shows the opposite? Should we demand that all >acupuncturists shall have graduated from non-English speaking schools? >It is possible you know. > >Regards, >Rich > > >______________________ >______________________ _______________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Hi Nadia, > > Rich, > > I understand that your concern is that we don't prevent skilled > practitioners from practicing in a certain country regardless of their > ability to speak the local language, because your experience has been that > if a practitioner is truly skilled, they do not need to communicate verbally > with the patient for treatment... I believe it is not an all or nothing proposition. My experience is that patients and doctors generally figure out ways to communicate whether it be through translators, friends, colleagues. People figure things out when their health is involved. My personal experiences is that language is rarely an obstacle. Ususally a patient's inability to " change " their pattern and lifestyle is a far greater impediment to good health. >I believe that we are our own best healers and that the > best practitioners guide their patients, not attempt to do it for them. Yes, this is pretty much what I believe also. :-) > > What I am saying is that if you choose to come to this country to *study*, > as in travel from your home country to learn the medicine in an English > speaking country, I don't quite understand how you can expect the entire > system to bend over backwards to accomodate you. I think learning to be accomodative is a great lesson in life. The Chinese, for example, are very accomodative to visiting students who wish to study in China. I think this is a very nice approach to life. On the otherhand, I once visited Quebec and the people there refused to tell me where the bathroom was because I could not ask it in French. I feel this was not very nice or accomodative. I never go back to Quebec. They have their life and I have mine. However, I will go to China and enjoy their hospitality. I think those schools here in the U.S. and elsewhere will greatly benefit by being acommodative, and those who are not accomodative will unfortunately lose the opportunity to benefit from those who have lots to share - even though their command of English is not so great. (To be sure, I am not suggesting that the province of Quebec has lost anything by not being accomodative to me. :-) ). I have many friends who I have learned lots from who speak very little, if any, English. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Well, after spending 6 months in Beijing, I can say that yes the Chinese are very accommodating to foreign, cash cow, students, but they do want you to speak Chinese. You may pay more and get a translator but again they still want you to speak Chinese. And for the simple reason that we are learning Chinese medicine so rightly so we should really speak Chinese. However, they learn WM aswell, and do speak broken, basic English. If you want to practice in China, apart from the fact that they wouldn't trust you coz your not Asian or the fact that your degree even if you have a good one from China is not recognised, you'll be expected to speak Chinese. So I don't understand the one rule for them and the one rule for us. I've spoken to a few high ranking Chinese doctors in the UK and they talk of injustice and unfairness, well I don't agree. Language is a basic element of life and should be respected whatever country your in. I'm quite surprised at America's lack attitude, but I hope and don't think Europe will be so easy. It's not a case of culture or politics, just a basic necessity. I've been to a few Chinese speaking doctors and witnessed some more that miss symptoms being expressed by the patient because they can't understand what their saying, simple. This of course affects the syndrome differentiation and treatment strategy no matter how good your T & P analysis is. Heh, when in Roman... Kind regards Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 07 September 2004 20:12 Chinese Medicine Re: English language Regulations I think learning to be accomodative is a great lesson in life. The Chinese, for example, are very accomodative to visiting students who wish to study in China. I think this is a very nice approach to life. On the otherhand, I once visited Quebec and the people there refused to tell me where the bathroom was because I could not ask it in French. I feel this was not very nice or accomodative. I never go back to Quebec. They have their life and I have mine. However, I will go to China and enjoy their hospitality. I think those schools here in the U.S. and elsewhere will greatly benefit by being acommodative, and those who are not accomodative will unfortunately lose the opportunity to benefit from those who have lots to share - even though their command of English is not so great. (To be sure, I am not suggesting that the province of Quebec has lost anything by not being accomodative to me. :-) ). I have many friends who I have learned lots from who speak very little, if any, English. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Hi Attilio, Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Well, after spending 6 months in Beijing, I can say that yes the >Chinese are very accommodating to foreign, cash cow, students, No surprise. >Lbut they do want you to speak Chinese. My understanding, and things may have changed, is that China is pretty free-wheeling with very few " regulations " on the practice of medicine. People in different cities practice with all kinds of backgrounds and education. Correct me if I am wrong. In regards to admission requirements, I have noticed lots of TCM schools have programs for overseas students that are given in foreigh languages, e.g., Guide for Admission of Overseas Students International School Beijing University of http://www.bjucmp.edu.cn/english/newpage33.htm " The International School is an administrative organ with the responsibility of enrolment and management of teaching & living for foreign students. It consists of a General Office, an International Training Office and a Foreign Student Administrative Office. Apartments and dining rooms for overseas students are located in both of the east and west campuses. The international school is in charge of the undergraduate program and short-term program for foreign students on different specialties, for example, TCM, acupuncture and Tuina etc. For the short-term program, the teaching language can be in Chinese, English, Japanese, Korean, Spanish, etc. In addition, it runs Chinese language course and undergraduate preparatory course, and advanced clinical training program for medical qualification examination. The oversea people are warmly welcome to study in our university! " My guess is there is not a large demand among the Chinese population in China for English-speaking TCM doctors, but on the other-hand, Chinese welcome with open arms anyone with lots of money who wants to spend it in China - whether or not they speak Chinese. :-) If there is a " benefit " , there is a " way " . All I am saying, is that I am willing to work through the " language gap " in order to have access to the healthcare that I am looking for. It is no issue at all for me. For example, since the TCM schools here in the U.S. provide very little tuina/qigong training, which I consider essential, I would much rather have access to someone from China who has very comprehensive training whether or not the pracititioner speaks English. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2004 Report Share Posted September 9, 2004 I don't think so Rich. It's not just the westerns that have trouble practicing in China, but also the Koreans. You'll be lucky if they recognise your training. Then you have to pass a government exam and only a fraction can pass this. Competition is high and therefore only the best go through. And don't forget, the exams are in Chinese. So if you do speak Chinese, you'd better be damm good to compete with the locals, especially since they study so hard and can read the classics, which even for someone fluent in Chinese, like my wife, is hard work. Kind regards Attilio Rich [rfinkelstein] 08 September 2004 16:17 Chinese Medicine Re: English language Regulations My understanding, and things may have changed, is that China is pretty free-wheeling with very few " regulations " on the practice of medicine. People in different cities practice with all kinds of backgrounds and education. Correct me if I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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