Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

Back to an old thread: Should we conserve Jing (semen) or not? Some modern

commentators feel that Jing is renewable, and that it can be spent / shed as

often as one desires [within reason!]

 

A Korean text [Dong Ui Bo Gam (The Precious Mirror of Oriental Medicine)]

maintains that it is important to conserve Jing. For the full essay, see:

http://store.orientalpharmacy.com/esofliqisp.html

 

Excerpt: " That is why in Dong Ui Bo Gam, it is said that if people doesn't

control their sexual desires an illness will come and the life span shortened.

In

Oriental medicine 'semen' (Jing) is seen as the basic element of the

comprehensive life that possesses its own life force, storing the 'semen' is the

repletion of ones life force, and spending it is understood as a decline in a

person's life force. "

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil

>

> Back to an old thread: Should we conserve Jing (semen) or not?

 

Today, I heard of study that showed that impotence in men is related

to drinking and smoking. In effect, the body is naturally cutting down

the formation of semen in order to conserve Jing for the job of

sustaining physical life.

 

> Some modern commentators feel that Jing is renewable, and that it

>can be spent shed as often as one desires [within reason!]

 

It may be possible to conserve Jing in a variety of ways, thereby

making it possible to expend Jing in other ways, but I do not think

there is a free lunch. When Jing is spent, it appears to be gone.

However, I have heard of a school of thought that certain meditative

processes can be used to " create Jing " . This may be possible, but I

think it is beyond my current abilities. However, what I can do is

breathe in a certain way - i.e. full body breathing - that allows me

to create physical energy in a more efficient manner than, let's say,

eating and digesting meats.

 

 

>

> A Korean text [Dong Ui Bo Gam (The Precious Mirror of Oriental

>Medicine)] maintains that it is important to conserve Jing.

 

I personally try not to think of anything as " important " . Heck, if an

athlete or a porn star wants to spend their life - however long it may

be - using Jing as quickly as possible, that is their choice. I think

it is fair to say that the body needs Jing to sustain itself, and if

there is not Jing then there is no physical life. After that, I think

each individual can decide for themselves whether conserving Jing is

" important " .

 

 

For the full essay, see:

> http://store.orientalpharmacy.com/esofliqisp.html

 

Thanks for the link. The only comment I would make is that I believe

that semen is one physical manfestation of Jing and not necessrily

equated to it. When a man becomes impotent, then Jing still exists,

but it is being conserved. If a man starts taking drugs to continue to

rob his body of Jing, that is having sexual intercourse, then he is

simply hastening his own demise. That is his choice. Just like people

who drink alcohol or coffee excessively, or smoke, are hastening their

own demise. Heck, just by living (using Jing) we are hastening our

demise. :-)

 

>

> Excerpt: " That is why in Dong Ui Bo Gam, it is said that if people

doesn't

> control their sexual desires an illness will come and the life span

shortened. In

> Oriental medicine 'semen' (Jing) is seen as the basic element of the

> comprehensive life that possesses its own life force, storing the

'semen' is the

> repletion of ones life force, and spending it is understood as a

decline in a

> person's life force. "

 

Using Jing expend's life force but also gives life. It is a paradox

that we all have to live with. :-) How we use our life (Jing), is each

individual's choice.

 

Regards,

Rich

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Rich

 

> ... if an athlete or porn star wants to spend their life ... using

> Jing as quickly as possible, that is their choice. I think it is

> fair to say that the body needs Jing to sustain itself, and if

> there is not Jing then there is no physical life. After that, I

> think each individual can decide for themselves whether conserving

> Jing is " important " .

 

I accept personal choice in personal behaviours. However, people

may respond to professional advice if they are informed that their

specific misbehaviour is diminishing their health.

 

For example, many smokers quit completely if they can be

convinced that smoking is a factor in their first CVA or heart-attack.

Many alcoholics quit once a trusted doctor explains the role of their

addiction in their health-, work- or family- problems.

 

> Using Jing expend's life force but also gives life.

 

Many professionals accept that occasional self-stimulated Jing-

loss (masturbation) is a normal behaviour for males and females,

especially those without a sexual partner. Some teenage sexual

education programmes explain that it gives temporary relief of

boredom /stress /anxiety.However, it hardly can be said that using

Jing gives life if it is lost into a condom or Kleenex!

 

> It is a paradox that we all have to live with. :-) How we use our

> life (Jing), is each individual's choice. Regards, Rich

 

Let me rephrase the question: Elderly male [with no sexual partner]

has history of weak back & knees, stiff joints, poor hearing and

poor teeth. He admits to porn-excited Jing-loss several times per

day. As a therapist, would you:

 

(1) advise this man to decrease Jing-loss to: 1-3 times/week, or 1-

3 times/month?

 

(2) to quit using porn altogether?

 

[iMO, porn demeans the Spirit of the addict, and fosters illegal, if

not criminal, behaviour in those that manufacture it]

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

> Hi All, & Hi Rich

>

>

> I accept personal choice in personal behaviours. However, people

> may respond to professional advice if they are informed that their

> specific misbehaviour is diminishing their health.

 

Yes, sometimees it happens that way. Many times it doesn't. It all

depends upon whether the person is ready to " change " . Suppose that I

told everyone on this forum that drinking coffee - especially in the

large amounts that are consumed nowadays as in Starbucks - is

" stealing " Jing and they should stop, how many would actually change

their behavior. People who are doing things, whether it is healthy or

not, generally have reasons why they are doing it and usually have to

figure out for themselves whether they want to change. Anyone giving

up coffee today? :-)

>

> For example, many smokers quit completely if they can be

> convinced that smoking is a factor in their first CVA or heart-attack.

> Many alcoholics quit once a trusted doctor explains the role of their

> addiction in their health-, work- or family- problems.

 

I am no expert on addictions. I figure different people change for

different reasons - when they are ready to change. I know my parents

gave up smoking when they were ready and for different reasons. They

were well aware throughout their life that smokine was very bad for

their health - who couldn't notice the effect of the sickly, noxious

smoke - but they continued anyway and no amount of warnings or advice

could dissuade them. My mother gave it up because it was getting to

expensive and she loved money more than her addiction. So go figure.

:-) Anyways, that was her life.

>

 

> Many professionals accept that occasional self-stimulated Jing-

> loss (masturbation) is a normal behaviour for males and females,

> especially those without a sexual partner.

 

Probably true. However, when I talk about Jing loss, I am referring to

everything in our life that uses up Jing. Some things we do happen to

use it up faster than others. For example, heavy athletic exercise

such as long distance running - such as marathons or triatholons - is

really Jing consuming yet some people really encourage it. I had a

friend who totally collapsed finally after running triatholons

throughout is life. He was pretty much dead much managed to recover.

He is younger than me but can't do much anymore. I told him to stop

the triatholons, but he didn't. Now, the " Universe " stopped it for

him. Such is life.

 

 

>Some teenage sexual

> education programmes explain that it gives temporary relief of

> boredom /stress /anxiety.However, it hardly can be said that using

> Jing gives life if it is lost into a condom or Kleenex!

 

Young people are generating lots of energy. Unfortunately, there are

not always appropriate outlets for this energy. It would be better if

children had lots more room to play. A lot more avenues for expressing

themselves - instead of being drugged because they are so-called

" hyperactive " . It is definitely not easy growing up. I guess it never

was and never will be. But each young individual has to figure out

their own life. Hopefully they do not expend too much Jing in the process.

 

>

> Let me rephrase the question: Elderly male [with no sexual partner]

> has history of weak back & knees, stiff joints, poor hearing and

> poor teeth. He admits to porn-excited Jing-loss several times per

> day. As a therapist, would you:

>

> (1) advise this man to decrease Jing-loss to: 1-3 times/week, or 1-

> 3 times/month?

>

> (2) to quit using porn altogether?

 

 

I would advise the person of the trade-offs and help make his energy

" flow " again (maybe with tuina/amma - maybe other means) so that his

mind is more relaxed and can begin to figure things out for itself.

It's tough to go cold-turkey even when one knows that whatever they

are doing is unhealthy. Anyone giving up coffee? :-) I really need to

stop watching television in the evening, but it won't happen tonight.

It's my " weakness " in life. we all have them.

>

> [iMO, porn demeans the Spirit of the addict, and fosters illegal, if

> not criminal, behaviour in those that manufacture it]

 

I try not to pass moral judgements. Heck, desire for money and power

is a great source source of illegal behavior - even among people who

believe they are quite upright. I accept all aspects of human life. If

one side exists then the other side surely will also.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:54:24 " " < wrote:

 

>>Let me rephrase the question: Elderly male [with no sexual partner] has

history of weak back & knees, stiff joints, poor hearing and poor teeth. He

admits to porn-excited Jing-loss several times per day. As a therapist,

would you:

>>1) advise this man to decrease Jing-loss to: 1-3 times/week, or 1-3

times/month?

 

In a book by Stephen Chang called something like " The Dao of Sexology " (my

copy is loaned out to a patient so I can't check it), he presents a formula

for computing, on the basis of age, how often a male can afford to

ejaculate without losing Jing to the extent it would be damaging. Again, I

can't recall the formula exactly, but recall that once one gets up into the

40's and beyond, the " allowable " frequency gets into once in weeks, if not

months.

 

Dr. Chang comes from an aristocratic medical family apparently in a Daoist

tradition. (Other books, probably still available, on Dao & Diet, Dao &

Management, Internal Exercises, an YiJing,…) He shares with other Daoist

authors/teachers I have studied (books by ManTak Chia, verbal teachings by

Wu BaoLin (LA/Santa Monica) and Jeffery Yuen) that in general it Jing must

be conserved. Daoist sexual practices - from " Iron-pants " QiGong (Wu

BaoLin) through healing positions for intercourse (in the YiShimPo

literature - see below) - generally emphasize holding back from

ejaculation. Dr. Chang's book actually offers techniques to achieve some

sort of super-orgasm in the process. The idea is the Jing from the Kidneys

gets pushed up the Du into the brain, converted into some sort of higher

consciousness.

 

Surveying this kind of literature, it appears to largely go back to a book,

volume 25 in a series called the " YiShimPo " . This is a Japanese collection

of copies of Chinese texts made some 1200 years ago, if I recall, which

contains material otherwise lost from Chinese tradition. (I.e. no other

known sources survive.) " Yi " is the medicine character; " Shim " is mandarin

" Shen " , i.e. the spirit of medicine; " Po " I forget, but something like

books or knowledge. (Noteworthy, in the context of the recent discussion of

the Donald Harper rendering of the MaWangDui find (168 BCE), several of the

manuscripts there dwell on refined sexual practices that remind one of the

YiShimPo volume 25 stuff.)

 

Interesting with respect to the question of whether Jing can be

built/regenerated, are a couple of tidbits from Jeffery Yuen lectures

(sorry to keep bringing him up, but his talks have been the source of a

massive amount of fascinating knowledge for me):

 

A) There are differing views as to whether Jing can be regenerated. (We

already know that.) But if it is possible, it would depend upon cultivating

a surplus of Qi and Blood.

 

(This idea is deep in tradition: In an early chapter of the SuWen it is

said that for people to reproduce - a very Jing related activity --

prerequisite is a good surplus of Qi & Blood. Parenthetically, this sheds

light on a lot of patients I have seen, in 30s-40s, relatively affluent

couples trying to have children, but having trouble, not willing to modify

high-stress (high-income generating), life-styles, and spending 10s of

thousands of $$ on IVF-type medical technology. In this context,

high-stress can be seen as Jing-depleting, i.e. (in the words so often used

by Dr. John Shen and Leon Hammer) " living beyond one's energy " , i.e. a

modern epidemic in the West (or at least here in Silicon Valley).)

 

Jing relates to Kidneys, Kidneys are the seat of source Yin and Yang.

Nourishing Yin and Yang can be seen as relating to nourishing/replenishing

Jing. Historical perspective (according to Jeffery): the idea of nourishing

Yin and Yang with specific herbs (tonics) stems from the Song period, as

widely codified in Ming era literature. Earlier one does not find herbs

considered/used to directly build Yin/Yang, except through building Qi and

Blood. I e. earlier there was mainly the use of qi and blood tonics.

 

Furthermore, there's a danger in indiscriminately using Yin & Yang tonics,

e.g. using them in a context where Qi and Blood themselves are deficient.

I.e. first one should build Qi and Blood into surplus, and then, with Yin

or Yang tonics, try to transmute into the elements of Jing. The danger lies

in the tendency of Yang tonics to generate Heat, and the Yin tonics to

generate Damp. Without sufficient transformative power (Qi/Blood deficiency

(and/or stagnation)), then what you get, instead of better Jing, is

DampHeat, and if you really push it, Hot-Phlegm. Then you've got a real

problem.

 

(This is mostly straight TCM stuff, but the historical framing brings it to

life in a new way for me.)

 

B) Being a Daoist priest (Jade Purity School, a lineage going back into Han

times), Jeffery often presents specifically Daoist theory and practices as

an aspect of CCM (classical Chinese medicine). Some years ago in San

Francisco he presented a couple of days on Daoist alchemical QiGong (or

ShenGong). The basic idea is first working on the Jing in the lower

Jiao/DanTien, i.e. it's home in the Kidneys. With cultivation, it gets

activated to a point of flourishing, and transmute it (i.e. an alchemical

process) into flourishing in the middle Jiao/DanTien (roughly at Ren-17);

then another period of cultivation to get it to transmute/flourishing at

the upper Jiao/DanTien at the 3rd eye (YinTang/pituitary gland). Then one

can see in all directions, near and far all at once, etc.

 

Note: the 3 Jiao (SanJiao) model used here is a variant model to the

standard SanJiao we learn in modern books and in school - in the pelvis,

abdomen and thorax. This other model, however, is found in the Han classics

(NeiJing) and elsewhere in tradition, as the 3 bony cavities - the pelvic

basin, the thorax, and the skull (and the brain, the " curious " Fu organ

that's the Jing or marrow within the bone of the skull). (Tangentially, in

another lecture, on sinew channels, Jeffery depicted the " curious " organs

as those that have a special relationship to human evolution, e.g.

reproduction and mental/conscious development. And, incidentally, he's

scheduled to present a day on the topic of the brain as " curious " Fu in LA

in November).

 

Another note: the process outlined in this practice resembles a key idea in

that lecture of Ted Kaptchuk's I cited before (1989 Pacific Symposium).

Ted's idea - ostensibly traceable also to classical literature - was that

in the vector of life (Ming), the Jing recedes, slowly or quickly depending

things, but, again with astute cultivation, the spirit/Shen can be

proportionately increased, i.e. inversely to the decline of Jing. A very

similar idea to transmutation alla alchemical traditions, though I don't

recall Ted making that connection literally.

 

Long-winded, as usual, but you people often inspire me, and I love this stuff…

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/7/2004 3:41:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

rfinkelstein writes:

Yes, sometimees it happens that way. Many times it doesn't. It all

depends upon whether the person is ready to " change " . Suppose that I

told everyone on this forum that drinking coffee - especially in the

large amounts that are consumed nowadays as in Starbucks - is

" stealing " Jing and they should stop, how many would actually change

their behavior. People who are doing things, whether it is healthy or

not, generally have reasons why they are doing it and usually have to

figure out for themselves whether they want to change. Anyone giving

up coffee today? :-)

 

 

Throughout your post you mentioned giving up coffee several times without

the possibility that coffee may actually be a good thing for some people.

Coffee is good to some people.

A blanket statement rarely covers the full spectrum of people.

 

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/9/2004 9:47:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

attiliodalberto writes:

Please explain Chris how coffee can be good for people. Yes, everything is

not harmful in moderation, but how can it be good for you. I'd love to know,

as my wife lives of a daily double espresso!

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

I believe that in generally some big, slow moving hypoAdrenal/Thiroid

people can gain some benefit of the moving properties form coffee. These people

may actually be losing essence because of the stagnation.

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

once one gets up into the

> 40's and beyond, the " allowable " frequency gets into once in weeks,

if not

> months.

>

…

>

>

 

Wow, I'm 40, who wants to live forever?

 

Mark Burrows

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

Let me rephrase the question: Elderly male [with no sexual partner]

has history of weak back & knees, stiff joints, poor hearing and

poor teeth. He admits to porn-excited Jing-loss several times per

day. As a therapist, would you:

 

(1) advise this man to decrease Jing-loss to: 1-3 times/week, or 1-

3 times/month?

 

>

__

 

Hi Phil and all

 

I have spent 30 years trying to understand the meaning of sexual

energy and its potential for spitual growth. and after all this time

what I am down to is Hormones and emotional cohesivenes, sad or what?

 

Your question is simple on the surface but it seems to me that there

are a number of angles to be explored.

 

Does this person take caffeine? as it will over rev. the adrenals.

Does he have prostate problems?

Does he really care how soon he dies? after all If one is very lonely

and starved of touch, dead, sooner, rather than later, might be a

blessing if coming to the end of one's story, esp. if the person has

not cultivated the skills for social contact or willingness for intimacy.

 

Playing with oneself will assuage feelings of loss and need for

intimacy. not an easy addiction to give up unless it can be replaced

with real nurturing. Cats and dogs can be a good replacement as they

provide purpose, meaning, healing and manageable intimacy.

 

So is it neccesary to conserve Jing?

IMO it depends on who you are, and what will you do with it? If one

wishes to be a Healer good martial artist, Then I would say Yes, But

placing all one's money in the bank and never touching it is a bit of

a waste of resources.

 

After all energy like money is to be used. question is, do we use it

for quick 5 minute gratification?. A bit like never having enough to

buy anything better that a cheap pair of sandals, or do we accumulate

enough to be able to afford a pair of good hiking boots that will

outlast the sandals ten time over.

 

But like people with money not everyone has the skill / knowledge of

how to manage / invest it. nor is it necessary or appropriate.

 

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " mark_burrows_01 "

<markburrows@s...> wrote:

> once one gets up into the

> > 40's and beyond, the " allowable " frequency gets into once in weeks,

> if not

> > months.

> >

> …

> >

> >

>

> Wow, I'm 40, who wants to live forever?

>

> Mark Burrows

 

___________

 

HI all

 

The issue might be more to do with quality of existence rather than lengh.

 

Any how, IF any males here are interested, It is perfectly with in the

realms of most males to have perfectly good intimate and enjoyable

intimate sexual relations without ejaculating. and yet have an orgasm.

 

I do hope the moderator will not delete this! as I consider it an

important aspect of Jing cultivation and mental / emotional

developemnt for would be acupunturists that wish to develop their

psychic potential.

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador and all,

 

Through personal experience, I have noticed that my Wei Qi is weaken after

losing Jing through ejaculation. I believe that Macocia talked about the

link between Jing and Wei Qi before, although I haven't read this anywhere

else. Perhaps others can shed some light on this.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

salvador_march [salvador_march]

09 September 2004 13:11

Chinese Medicine

Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

So is it neccesary to conserve Jing?

IMO it depends on who you are, and what will you do with it? If one

wishes to be a Healer good martial artist, Then I would say Yes, But

placing all one's money in the bank and never touching it is a bit of

a waste of resources.

 

salvador

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Please explain Chris how coffee can be good for people. Yes, everything is

not harmful in moderation, but how can it be good for you. I'd love to know,

as my wife lives of a daily double espresso!

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

Musiclear [Musiclear]

09 September 2004 13:54

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

Throughout your post you mentioned giving up coffee several times without

the possibility that coffee may actually be a good thing for some people.

Coffee is good to some people.

A blanket statement rarely covers the full spectrum of people.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Please read below,,,,,,,

 

In a message dated 9/9/2004 11:46:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

rfinkelstein writes:

 

This may be true. However, some bodywork may do much more than a cup

of coffee without the downside of using as much Jing.

 

 

Chris writes: I sortof agree, but only a little. Some people do well

with a something that moves Qi every day. I doubt anyone will go in for body

work every day.

 

 

 

I think it is

better for Jing to be conserved so that it more available for the

transformation/transportation process.

 

 

Chris writes: In cases where the body is imbalanced in a way that Qi is

bound, using an herb, coffee in this case to move that Qi is a good thing. Of

course, not to an extreme. In some people, coffee does not burn Jing, it

helps to move the vital fluid that is there. I realize this is not good therapy

for the majority of people. It does wok well as an aid for some as they are

moving upscale.

 

 

If Jing is not available, then

the stagnation will continue. I guess in this case, the bodyworker is

using his/her Jing in support of the client/patient's Jing.

 

Chris writes: Not if they are good. IMHO It should never be about using

ones own Jing or Qi. I actually don't agree with the use of Jing in your

example. It takes to much of a toll. Besides, there is so much more available

elsewhere.

 

 

 

Not every

practitioner wants to use their own Jing in this manner, but there are

trained practitioners (e.g. bodyworkers) who are quite willing and

capable. I am able to do this, because I conserve Jin by practcing

taiji and qigong. But sometimes I am to tired to do it - for example,

after playing tennis or ejaculating. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris,

>

> Throughout your post you mentioned giving up coffee several times

>without the possibility that coffee may actually be a good thing for

some people. Coffee is good to some people. A blanket statement rarely

covers the full spectrum of people.

 

> Chris

 

In my post, I tried not to suggest whether coffee or ejaculation was

" good " or " bad " for people. These are value judgements and I do not

know what is " good " or " bad " for a person. What I was suggesting is

that coffee, like ejaculation, uses up lots of Jing? That " buzz " that

people get each time they take a nice large cup (not the little

thimbles that they drink in Europe) is sapping the body of lots of

Jing. But people continue to dring coffee just like they continue to

ejaculate as often as they choose to do so. It is their life, not mine

and they are experiencing it in a manner that they wish to to

experience it.

 

Heck, taiji and qigong use Jing. Some practice Taiji and qigong in a

manner that uses up lots of Jing and at the same time creates greater

" obstructions " in the Shen. Some practice in a manner that uses a

little Jing while still promoting smooth flow of blood and energy.

Everyone is different. We are always using Jing. It is a question of

how. If someone drinks 5 cups of Starbucks everyday or ejaculates 3

times a day, it is their choice and their life. In my view, it is not

a question of " good " or " bad " - just using Jing in a manner that the

individual wishes to do so.

 

A person who suggests that someone else dring coffee, then that person

should be aware that they are suggesting that Jing be used in a

certain way - that is, as a way of extracting Jing as a replacement

for " correct qi " which may be in short supply within the body. These

are choices that need to be made. As Salvador says, quantity and

quality are two different dimensions to life. How we use Jing is

another way of saying " how we live our life " .

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris,

>

> I believe that in generally some big, slow moving

hypoAdrenal/Thiroid

> people can gain some benefit of the moving properties form coffee.

These people

> may actually be losing essence because of the stagnation.

>

> Chris

 

This may be true. However, some bodywork may do much more than a cup

of coffee without the downside of using as much Jing. I think it is

better for Jing to be conserved so that it more available for the

transformation/transportation process. If Jing is not available, then

the stagnation will continue. I guess in this case, the bodyworker is

using his/her Jing in support of the client/patient's Jing. Not every

practitioner wants to use their own Jing in this manner, but there are

trained practitioners (e.g. bodyworkers) who are quite willing and

capable. I am able to do this, because I conserve Jin by practcing

taiji and qigong. But sometimes I am to tired to do it - for example,

after playing tennis or ejaculating. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hmmm

 

My Grandfather of blessed memory was still very sexualy active at 60. He did

daily Ch'i Kung and could bend a 3/4 inch steel bar with his hands.

 

Did not sweem to be a loss of Jing there.

 

Doc

[Guest guest]

Hi Doc,

 

Chinese Medicine , Doc <Doc@s...> wrote:

> Hmmm

>

> My Grandfather of blessed memory was still very sexualy active at

60. He did daily Ch'i Kung and could bend a 3/4 inch steel bar with

his hands.

>

> Did not sweem to be a loss of Jing there.

>

> Doc

 

Yes, qigong helps " preserve " Jing, since a free-flowing " system " uses

less Jing - i.e, more efficient transformation/transportation.

Therefore, if less Jing is being used for other daily activties more

is available for sexual activity. If Jing is relatively unavailable,

then the sexual system will automatically shut down (impotence) in

order for the body to preserve its life. Now, a person can try to

override this " shutdown " in order to maintain sexual acitivity, but

this would be using Jing at the expense of " a longer life " (but maybe

a more interesting life. :-) ). At the end, we all use all of our Jing

- because we are using it to keep ourselves alive- and then we enter

a new state called death as your grandfather and my parents have done.

 

Also, it is suggested by some texts, that not everyone comes into this

life with the same amount or quality of Jing. The health of the

parents appears to be a contributing factor. One's Karma another? :-)

So what may be a reasonable use of Jing for one person may not be

possible for another. As Chris indicated, it is difficult to make

generalizations when it comes to Life.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

From what I've read on the taoist art of bedchamber, these people

really went to some length with their sexual practices, even as far

as being able to empty a glass of water by sucking the water through

their penis into their bladder, hanging weights from the testicles,

or extracting the essence from another person to enhance their jing,

etc.

 

At some point it seemed that they really missed the point here.

There's no mention of having a happy, healthy sexual relationship

with another human being. Instead it becomes how to enhance your own

health, even at the expense of another person's.

 

I used to be really intrigued with these ideas, but as time goes on

I've become more disillusioned that it ends up being a somewhat

chauvenistic, self centered approach to health and ends up putting a

division between the sexes instead of becoming a way to integrate

them and make life better in that way.

 

Have you noticed that there are no women participating in this

discussion? But do you think women are any less affected by becoming

drained from too much sex? They have the same issues as men, but

this issue never seems to get any attention. You can see this by

looking at how people age who are involved in the sex industry over a

long period of time.

 

I once had a patient who was 69 years old and had sex and ejaculated

every day. He was very energetic and looked 10 years younger than he

was. It would seem he was born with " an extra bag of jing " as one of

my former instructors used to say, and I as far as I can tell he

doesn't need advice to cut back. On the other hand there are people

in their 30's who are tired afterwards and should probably adhere to

the day per decade rule, i.e., sex once every 4 days if you're 40,

etc.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

My understanding is that while a man's semen is a manifestation of their jing,

jing and semen are not the same thing. Women produce no semen but obviously have

jing. As to the price a man pays with semen loss via ejaculation, some ancient

thinking equated the loss of qi as roughly equal to the amount of qi one gains

by eating a meal of chicken and thus the loss of semen in ejaculation was called

" losing one's chicken. "

 

The rule of thumb advice I learned was that a man in his 20's could have three

ejaculations a week, two a week in his 30's, one a week in his 40's, one every

two weeks in his 50's and so-forth without suffering too much damage. Of course,

this is a rough rule of thumb and there are always individual variations that

effect such a equation.

 

I think such notions of saving one's semen find their root in Taoist immortality

techniques (such as various Internal Alchemy techniques) that teach to transform

relatively yin, sexual qi into more yang, vital qi, and then to merge that qi

with shen (spiritual qi) to form a new, immortal life. Such techniques can be

preformed by an individual alone or with a partner (dual cultivation) and lead

to a " mystical pregnancy " and delivery of a " Red Baby " (immortal life). In these

techniques, male adepts learn to restrain the " white tiger " (semen) and female

adepts to cut the " red dragon " (cease menstruation.)

 

I further believe that many aspects of Chinese medical theories actually have

their origins in such highly secretive, esoteric Taoist concepts and that such

connections have not been well explored to aid our understanding of the roots of

Chinese medicine.

 

Matt Bauer

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:00 AM

RE: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

Hi Salvador and all,

 

Through personal experience, I have noticed that my Wei Qi is weaken after

losing Jing through ejaculation. I believe that Macocia talked about the

link between Jing and Wei Qi before, although I haven't read this anywhere

else. Perhaps others can shed some light on this.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

salvador_march [salvador_march]

09 September 2004 13:11

Chinese Medicine

Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

So is it neccesary to conserve Jing?

IMO it depends on who you are, and what will you do with it? If one

wishes to be a Healer good martial artist, Then I would say Yes, But

placing all one's money in the bank and never touching it is a bit of

a waste of resources.

 

salvador

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On the other hand, what happens if one conserves the tadpoles ad infinitum?

 

Reminds me of the Hermit's Pulse by which the mendicant padre was caught

out,

claiming to celibacy, when having a ball all the while at the nunnery in the

night.

 

Splurging if it leads to qi loss, being the yang of things, must have a yin

state,

where qi is hoarded leads to the point of Overfull.

 

In Indian lore that leads to " tejas " , a kind of spiritual luster.

To my mind it can just as well lead to a state on mind this side of mania.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Matt !

 

I´m 62 years old and we have sex 3 - 4 times a week (me and my wife) and

every time i feel great ,like loading energie !!!!!!!!!

 

Regards H.Peter

 

 

 

Centro de Medicina Oriental

Acupunctura,Laserterapia,Shiatsu,

Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer

351 269 827272 +351 967 044284

medoriental

 

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

09/09/04 17:55:05

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

 

The rule of thumb advice I learned was that a man in his 20's could have

three ejaculations a week, two a week in his 30's, one a week in his 40's,

one every two weeks in his 50's and so-forth without suffering too much

damage. Of course, this is a rough rule of thumb and there are always

individual variations that effect such a equation.

 

..

 

Matt Bauer

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:00 AM

RE: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

http://groups.

com and adjust accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Excellent post Matt. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

Matt Bauer [acu.guy]

09 September 2004 17:53

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

My understanding is that while a man's semen is a manifestation of their

jing, jing and semen are not the same thing. Women produce no semen but

obviously have jing. As to the price a man pays with semen loss via

ejaculation, some ancient thinking equated the loss of qi as roughly equal

to the amount of qi one gains by eating a meal of chicken and thus the loss

of semen in ejaculation was called " losing one's chicken. "

 

The rule of thumb advice I learned was that a man in his 20's could have

three ejaculations a week, two a week in his 30's, one a week in his 40's,

one every two weeks in his 50's and so-forth without suffering too much

damage. Of course, this is a rough rule of thumb and there are always

individual variations that effect such a equation.

 

I think such notions of saving one's semen find their root in Taoist

immortality techniques (such as various Internal Alchemy techniques) that

teach to transform relatively yin, sexual qi into more yang, vital qi, and

then to merge that qi with shen (spiritual qi) to form a new, immortal life.

Such techniques can be preformed by an individual alone or with a partner

(dual cultivation) and lead to a " mystical pregnancy " and delivery of a " Red

Baby " (immortal life). In these techniques, male adepts learn to restrain

the " white tiger " (semen) and female adepts to cut the " red dragon " (cease

menstruation.)

 

I further believe that many aspects of Chinese medical theories actually

have their origins in such highly secretive, esoteric Taoist concepts and

that such connections have not been well explored to aid our understanding

of the roots of Chinese medicine.

 

Matt Bauer

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dr. H. Peter Nussbaumer wrote:

 

<Matt !

 

I´m 62 years old and we have sex 3 - 4 times a week (me and my wife) and

every time i feel great ,like loading energie !!!!!!!!!

 

Regards H.Peter>

 

H. Peter,

 

Could you have your wife contact my wife? - Matt

 

 

But seriously folks, the advice on frequency of sexual activity will vary

for different people. The main point, I believe, is that unless you are

practicing specific spiritual techniques under proper guidance, moderation

(as it may apply to the individual) is the key to all health aspects. This

is what is meant by the " Middle Way " neither overdoing nor under-doing.

 

Matt

-

" Dr.H.Peter " <medoriental

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:49 PM

Re: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Centro de Medicina Oriental

Acupunctura,Laserterapia,Shiatsu,

Dr.H.Peter Nussbaumer

351 269 827272 +351 967 044284

medoriental

 

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

09/09/04 17:55:05

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

 

The rule of thumb advice I learned was that a man in his 20's could have

three ejaculations a week, two a week in his 30's, one a week in his 40's,

one every two weeks in his 50's and so-forth without suffering too much

damage. Of course, this is a rough rule of thumb and there are always

individual variations that effect such a equation.

 

..

 

Matt Bauer

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:00 AM

RE: Re: Is it necessary to Conserve Jing?

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

http://groups.

com and adjust accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris,

 

> Chris writes: I sortof agree, but only a little. Some people do

>well with a something that moves Qi every day. I doubt anyone will

go in for body work every day.

 

There is not need to - thank goodness. For all of the people who are

interested, I show them simple exercises that allow them to " open up "

their body and allow qi to flow easily each day. Over time, these

" physical exercises " also assist in relaxing and opening the mental

and spiritual aspects also. Leading, hopefully, to overall well-being.

This is the nature of yoga, taiji, qigong, etc.

 

> Chris writes: In cases where the body is imbalanced in a way

>that Qi is bound, using an herb, coffee in this case to move that Qi

is a good thing.

 

In this case, the herbs are attempting to " correct the imbalances " -

or as I would put it, remove obstructions in such a way that a natural

balance can manifest itself. I am very skeptical about arriving at the

correct herbal combination (as Tom Tam suggested in his book which I

excerpted) - but I realize that others are much more confident of this

technique. My experiences with herbs - over a period of 15 years -

were so-so. For acute cases better than chronic and usually a

hit-or-miss affair even with very experienced herbalists. Experiences

will vary I am sure. I am just relating my own, which is why I no

longer utilize this modality. I may again in the future. Time changes

as do I.

 

>Of

> course, not to an extreme. In some people, coffee does not burn

Jing, it

> helps to move the vital fluid that is there.

 

Yes, but based upon my understanding, it does this my " stealing jing " .

Usually because there is insufficient " correct qi " in the body which

is why there is stagnation in the first place.

>

>Chris writes: Not if they are good. IMHO It should never be about

>using ones own Jing or Qi. I actually don't agree with the use of

>Jing in your example. It takes to much of a toll. Besides, there

is so much more available elsewhere.

 

I do not think there is any choice on this matter. We are using Jing

all the time. It is part of the transformation/tranportation process.

It is what is keeping ourselves alive. Some bodyworkers will use more

or less Jing during any particular effort depending upon how much

" correct qi " they have stored in their Kidney. The practitioner I go

to, does qigong while he is working so as not to deplete " correct qi "

to a point that he must begin to tap into Jing. Using this method, he

is able to do 13 vigorous bodywork sessions a day - much more than

most bodyworkers that I know who tire from too many sessions.

 

This is all based upon my own understandings. I realize that others

may view it differently.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

(brian) From what I've read on the Taoist art of bedchamber, these people really

went to some length with their sexual practices, even as far as being able to

empty a glass of water by sucking the water through their penis into their

bladder,

 

 

 

(ming) I would not want to do it even if I am able to. I much prefer the normal

direction of water flow, which is out of the bladder, and I prefer the normal

way of drinking water, which is through my mouth. Nevertheless, what you are

also seeing is that these people are trying to put together a system of health

that preserves and enhances jing by an act through which jing is usually lost.

 

 

 

(brian) hanging weights from the testicles,

 

 

 

(ming) Now, that’s a great way of enhancing one’s health. This form of qigong

is so unlike anything you’ve ever experienced, and hanging weights from the

testicles is just one aspect of a rather complete system of Taoist qigong. Many

who practice it swear by it.

 

 

(brian) At some point it seemed that they really missed the point here. There's

no mention of having a happy, healthy sexual relationship with another human

being.

 

 

 

(ming) Actually, that’s the desired point and purpose that the author(s) of

these texts are trying to get across. I think ‘happiness’ might have been

either incidentally mentioned or implied, because the author(s) probably assumed

that happiness would naturally come from the proper uses of these bedchamber

techniques with your consenting sexual partner. The proper use of these

powerful techniques does enhance the health of not only you but your partner as

well. Ultimately, it depends on the wisdom of readers of these texts to see,

understand, and follow the points of these texts. However, as Benjamin Hawes

has mentioned, things could get kind of messy in the process of adapting, and

this may not something that everyone would follow.

 

 

 

(brian) or extracting the essence from another person to enhance their jing,

etc. …………. Instead it becomes how to enhance your own

health, even at the expense of another person's.

 

 

 

(ming) This is where morality in qigong comes in. Qigong, regardless of form

or school, should stress the importance of enhancement of your own health and

the benefit of others. Any qigong school that teaches differently should be

outlawed. Those who knowingly and intentionally misuse these techniques for the

above purpose should (and will) meet their punishment one way or another by

natural law even though they cannot be prosecuted by our court system (How does

the victim know she’s being victimized? And Even if she realizes that she’s a

victim, how does she present her case in court? You see how evil the above acts

can be?). Incidentally, it was briefly mentioned in one of my qigong classes

that women can protect themselves from these kind of jerks by closing their eyes

during intercourse. So, there are ways women can protect themselves.

 

(brian) I used to be really intrigued with these ideas, but as time goes on,

I've become more disillusioned that it ends up being a somewhat chauvinistic,

self-centered approach to health and ends up putting a division between the

sexes instead of becoming a way to integrate them and make life better in that

way.

 

 

 

(ming) When people’s practice deviates from the good intention of these texts

and use these techniques to exert sexual dominance or for their own deviant

selfish gain, these people invariably ruins the reputation of these texts and

create a negative association about these bedchamber texts. It really steers

people away from the many positive aspects of health that these bedchamber texts

show, and that’s a damn shame. Don’t be disillusioned with how idiots ruin a

good idea. Instead, focus on what great things can be accomplished when

intelligent educated people makes proper use of these same ideas and pass them

on to future generations. This is how great tradition should be upheld.

 

(brian) I once had a patient who was 69 years old and had sex and ejaculated

every day. He was very energetic and looked 10 years younger than he was. It

would seem he was born with " an extra bag of jing " as one of my former

instructors used to say, and I as far as I can tell he

doesn't need advice to cut back.

 

 

 

(ming) I would start a conversation with the guy over tea and find out what he

knows and what he does to keep himself in such a shape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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