Guest guest Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 Hi folks - have begun using the weight loss protocol Attilio reported he'd seen in China on a patient of mine who is very overweight, and awaiting knee replacement surgery - which she can't have til she's lost weight. I treat her 2x/week, probably comparatively conservative needling (evens, 3 - 5 fen depth). She has reported that she's not nearly so hungry, and is eating much less. What I'd like input on: she reports that she feels decidedly queasy/nauseous for 24 hours after treatment. Any thoughts on why that is? It's not enough to put her off, she wants to continue the treatment. She's only had 3 tx so far, negligible weight loss... Thanks karen > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Hi Karen, > > She has reported that she's not nearly so hungry, and is eating much > less. What I'd like input on: she reports that she feels decidedly > queasy/nauseous for 24 hours after treatment. Any thoughts on why that > is? It's not enough to put her off, she wants to continue the > treatment. She's only had 3 tx so far, negligible weight loss... When my wife and I began our Bigu ( " eat qi " ) " fasting diet " , we experienced the same modulated desire for food (because we our transformation process was more efficient) as well as similar symptoms because our bodies were releasing old toxins and all kinds of junk. This was particularly noticeable in our stools which turned very dark after three days. Weight loss during the first week was about 10 pounds for myself and about half that for my wife. Then everything became more modulated including more normal overal symptoms. I personally would view the queasy/nauseous feelings as a good sign that the her body was " releasing " , but I am use to these things in myself and people that I do Tuina bodywork. Others, who are not use to it or see it as a negative sign might try to suppress the symptoms which I would view as counter-productive - that is pushing the junk back inside the body. But everyone is different and I thought it might be helpful to you if I related my own experiences. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Interesting Karen. Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. Attilio Karen <tryfan@o...> wrote: > Hi folks - have begun using the weight loss protocol Attilio reported > he'd seen in China on a patient of mine who is very overweight, and > awaiting knee replacement surgery - which she can't have til she's lost > weight. I treat her 2x/week, probably comparatively conservative > needling (evens, 3 - 5 fen depth). > > She has reported that she's not nearly so hungry, and is eating much > less. What I'd like input on: she reports that she feels decidedly > queasy/nauseous for 24 hours after treatment. Any thoughts on why that > is? It's not enough to put her off, she wants to continue the > treatment. She's only had 3 tx so far, negligible weight loss... > > Thanks > karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Hi Karen, Here's an idea from my own experience. I use various methods to encourage weight loss in Polycystic Ovary Women who struggle with this issue particularly, as they need to loose weight before being accepted on IVF programmes. (I specialise in Fertility/Babies). I found that the underlying Spleen/Stomach Deficiency is revealed in its full strength only when the patient begins to loose weight. If you are a herbalist, or even an acupuncturist who can prescribe herbs, I found the Central Mansion pills from the 3 Treasures range to be simple and very effective, or spending some time Tonifying Sp/St before or in the first part of treament, seemed to give a better base for the following moving of Qi. Hope this helps, I'd be interested to see what happens. Naava. > " " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > Re: weight loss protocol revisited >Sun, 05 Sep 2004 08:21:29 -0000 > >Interesting Karen. > >Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any >herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. > >Attilio > >Karen <tryfan@o...> wrote: > > Hi folks - have begun using the weight loss protocol Attilio >reported > > he'd seen in China on a patient of mine who is very overweight, >and > > awaiting knee replacement surgery - which she can't have til she's >lost > > weight. I treat her 2x/week, probably comparatively conservative > > needling (evens, 3 - 5 fen depth). > > > > She has reported that she's not nearly so hungry, and is eating >much > > less. What I'd like input on: she reports that she feels >decidedly > > queasy/nauseous for 24 hours after treatment. Any thoughts on why >that > > is? It's not enough to put her off, she wants to continue the > > treatment. She's only had 3 tx so far, negligible weight loss... > > > > Thanks > > karen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 wrote: > Interesting Karen. > > Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any > herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. > Hi Attilio! I have a friend who is very overweight. Every time he tries to loose weight he switches to a more-or-less sensible diet and promptly gets sick, not only nausea but headaches. He says that overeating is actually an addiction and the sickness is withdrawal symptoms. I think he may be correct. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 Hi Pete, That I understand. Yes, I agree that refined grain and sugars are indeed addictive. Anything can become an addiction when taken too excessively. Are you treating him with the 7 point protocol? Kind regards Attilio Pete Theisen [petet] 06 September 2004 05:10 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited wrote: > Interesting Karen. > > Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any > herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. > Hi Attilio! I have a friend who is very overweight. Every time he tries to loose weight he switches to a more-or-less sensible diet and promptly gets sick, not only nausea but headaches. He says that overeating is actually an addiction and the sickness is withdrawal symptoms. I think he may be correct. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 Sorry Atillio...could you remind me of the 7 point protocol? Kind regards Dermot - " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 06, 2004 9:05 AM RE: Re: weight loss protocol revisited > Hi Pete, > > That I understand. Yes, I agree that refined grain and sugars are indeed > addictive. Anything can become an addiction when taken too excessively. Are > you treating him with the 7 point protocol? > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > Pete Theisen [petet] > 06 September 2004 05:10 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited > > > wrote: > > Interesting Karen. > > > > Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any > > herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. > > > > Hi Attilio! > > I have a friend who is very overweight. Every time he tries to loose > weight he switches to a more-or-less sensible diet and promptly gets > sick, not only nausea but headaches. He says that overeating is actually > an addiction and the sickness is withdrawal symptoms. I think he may be > correct. > > Regards, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi Pete, > > That I understand. Yes, I agree that refined grain and sugars are indeed > addictive. Anything can become an addiction when taken too excessively. Are > you treating him with the 7 point protocol? > Hi Attilio! No, he doesn't like acupuncture. He wants a stomach-stapling operation but he is too ill to withstand it. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 The 7 point strategy is: 1. Zhongwan (Ren 12) 2. Xiawan (Ren 10) 3. Qihai (Ren 6) 4. Guanyuan (Ren 4) 5. Daheng (SP 15) 6. Huaroumen (ST 24) 7. Wailing (ST 26) The same points are used for all types of patients. Needles are retained for roughly 25 mins without manipulation. Kind regards Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> Dermot O'Connor [dermot] 06 September 2004 09:11 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited Sorry Atillio...could you remind me of the 7 point protocol? Kind regards Dermot - " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 06, 2004 9:05 AM RE: Re: weight loss protocol revisited > Hi Pete, > > That I understand. Yes, I agree that refined grain and sugars are indeed > addictive. Anything can become an addiction when taken too excessively. Are > you treating him with the 7 point protocol? > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > Pete Theisen [petet] > 06 September 2004 05:10 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited > > > wrote: > > Interesting Karen. > > > > Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any > > herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. > > > > Hi Attilio! > > I have a friend who is very overweight. Every time he tries to loose > weight he switches to a more-or-less sensible diet and promptly gets > sick, not only nausea but headaches. He says that overeating is actually > an addiction and the sickness is withdrawal symptoms. I think he may be > correct. > > Regards, > > Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 te: Sat Sep 4, 2004 8:13 pm weight loss protocol revisited Hi folks - have begun using the weight loss protocol Attilio reported he'd seen in China on a patient of mine who is very overweight, and awaiting knee replacement surgery - which she can't have til she's lost weight. I treat her 2x/week, probably comparatively conservative needling (evens, 3 - 5 fen depth). She has reported that she's not nearly so hungry, and is eating much less. What I'd like input on: she reports that she feels decidedly queasy/nauseous for 24 hours after treatment. Any thoughts on why that is? It's not enough to put her off, she wants to continue the treatment. She's only had 3 tx so far, negligible weight loss... Thanks karen _____________ Hi Karen and all I will state that from my perspective I view the whole issue of prescriptive acupuncture with alarm. My experiences to date and the ensuing working theoretical framework that I have have evolved. Views prescriptive acupuncture as been not much different from prescriptive drugs and their enduing side efects. The sedation of points along the Ren, SP and ST points may well achieve the desired effect of removing hunger but at what price? and do we recognise the price paid by our patients? There is a saying " one man's meat is another man's poison " . One person may well benefit from those prescriptive points but unless one accurately dignoses the individual one may do more harm than good through repetive treatment of the same points. The feling of nausea may come from a variety of places. Innapropriate sedation of points along the REn, SP or ST will all contain the posibility of generating nausea. I have been experimenting and cataloguing patients for quite a few years now And I have yet to meet one who was excess SP and ST. What is more common is one who is Excess ST and Def.SP, or Excess SP and Def. ST. From what I have read, it seems that Herb diagnosis is a bit different in this respect. To Give one possibility, lets assume the patient in question has a Root Dysharmony of Excess SP Def. ST If you sedate the ST then You will not just weaken the ST further but also affect the GB, SI, LI and BL. The opposite is also possible lets say The patient has a Root Dysharmony of Excess ST but is DEf. in the SP again the sedation of SP and some of those Ren points. will interfere with the working of the pancreas. There are other possible reasons to do with food and detox. but the fact that the symptoms accurs after a treatment suggests to me that the patient would benefit from a closer observation of her constitutional make up. Salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Karen <tryfan@o...> wrote: > What I'd like input on: she reports that she feels decidedly > queasy/nauseous for 24 hours after treatment. Any thoughts on why that > is? What immediately came to mind as I read this was that perhaps she is experiencing a detox reaction. I know I am opening a can of worms here as we have already had one debate about the existance of such a reaction but consider this - just like a deep tissue massage, acupuncture can cause the release of toxins stored in the muscles. I always tell patients to drink plenty of water after a session (massage or acupuncture) and this helps. By drinking the water, they are flushing out these toxins. If they do not drink enough, the may feel dizzy, lightheaded, fatigued or headachey. In the case of massage, they may also get sore as the lactic acid settles back into the muscle tissues. I saw Mika Shima speak at Pacific symposium last year. When a patient comes to him, he puts them on a detox regimine before needling them to prevent this sort of complication. Anyway, it's something to consider. Best wishes - Rebecca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 Hi Pete - tx for responding. no other acupuncture, no herbs. karen Attilio D'Alberto wrote: >Hi Pete, > >That I understand. Yes, I agree that refined grain and sugars are indeed >addictive. Anything can become an addiction when taken too excessively. Are >you treating him with the 7 point protocol? > >Kind regards > >Attilio > > >Pete Theisen [petet] >06 September 2004 05:10 >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited > > > wrote: > > >>Interesting Karen. >> >>Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any >>herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. >> >> >> > >Hi Attilio! > >I have a friend who is very overweight. Every time he tries to loose >weight he switches to a more-or-less sensible diet and promptly gets >sick, not only nausea but headaches. He says that overeating is actually >an addiction and the sickness is withdrawal symptoms. I think he may be >correct. > >Regards, > >Pete > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Att, are you still in China studying acupuncture? Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote:The 7 point strategy is: 1. Zhongwan (Ren 12) 2. Xiawan (Ren 10) 3. Qihai (Ren 6) 4. Guanyuan (Ren 4) 5. Daheng (SP 15) 6. Huaroumen (ST 24) 7. Wailing (ST 26) The same points are used for all types of patients. Needles are retained for roughly 25 mins without manipulation. Kind regards Attilio www.attiliodalberto.com <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> Dermot O'Connor [dermot] 06 September 2004 09:11 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited Sorry Atillio...could you remind me of the 7 point protocol? Kind regards Dermot - " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 06, 2004 9:05 AM RE: Re: weight loss protocol revisited > Hi Pete, > > That I understand. Yes, I agree that refined grain and sugars are indeed > addictive. Anything can become an addiction when taken too excessively. Are > you treating him with the 7 point protocol? > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > Pete Theisen [petet] > 06 September 2004 05:10 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited > > > wrote: > > Interesting Karen. > > > > Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any > > herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. > > > > Hi Attilio! > > I have a friend who is very overweight. Every time he tries to loose > weight he switches to a more-or-less sensible diet and promptly gets > sick, not only nausea but headaches. He says that overeating is actually > an addiction and the sickness is withdrawal symptoms. I think he may be > correct. > > Regards, > > Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Karen wrote: > Hi Pete - tx for responding. no other acupuncture, no herbs. > karen > > Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > >>Hi Pete, >> >>That I understand. Yes, I agree that refined grain and sugars are indeed >>addictive. Anything can become an addiction when taken too excessively. Are >>you treating him with the 7 point protocol? >> >>Kind regards >> >>Attilio >> >> >>Pete Theisen [petet] >>06 September 2004 05:10 >>Chinese Medicine >>Re: Re: weight loss protocol revisited >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>Interesting Karen. >>> >>>Are you using another acupuncture apart from the 7 points or any >>>herbal prescriptions? Otherwise i'm at a loss to explain the nausea. >>> >>> >>> >> >>Hi Attilio! >> >>I have a friend who is very overweight. Every time he tries to loose >>weight he switches to a more-or-less sensible diet and promptly gets >>sick, not only nausea but headaches. He says that overeating is actually >>an addiction and the sickness is withdrawal symptoms. I think he may be >>correct. >> Hi Karen! He is a Western Medicine patient only. He will do *nothing* to help himself, wants it all done for him. Western Med is appropriate in this case. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 No, I've been back about 6 weeks now. Hope to go out to China again some time in the future. Kind regards Attilio Shaobai Wang [sw126] 07 September 2004 01:44 Chinese Medicine RE: Re: weight loss protocol revisited Att, are you still in China studying acupuncture? Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote:The 7 point strategy is: 1. Zhongwan (Ren 12) 2. Xiawan (Ren 10) 3. Qihai (Ren 6) 4. Guanyuan (Ren 4) 5. Daheng (SP 15) 6. Huaroumen (ST 24) 7. Wailing (ST 26) The same points are used for all types of patients. Needles are retained for roughly 25 mins without manipulation. Kind regards Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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