RE: yi

[Guest guest]

This rings true for me, Shanna. I've had some patients that have pretty much

told me I could do nothing for them - before I had ever treated them. Most

seemed very Liver and especially phlegm-stagnated, and lo - I couldn't help

them. One guy had a sarcastic sneer on his face while I treated him. I think

for some people, it makes them more satisfied for acupuncture to fail than

for it to work. They are not receptive to the cure.

Needless to say, most of my patients that have not responded probably didn't

because I didn't get it right. But some definitely had big chips on their

shoulders. Usually guys, in my experience.

 

Benjamin Hawes, MAOM, Lic. Ac.,

 

CORTEZ FAMILY ACUPUNCTURE

1430 E. Main Street, Suite #4

Cortez, CO 81321

(970) 565-0230

__________

>

> Message: 20

> Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:02:23 -0000

> " shannahickle " <shannahickle

> Re: TCM needling and Individual experiences and Yi [intention]

>

> Hi Phil

>

> I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. One more thing--could it

> be that intention does not so much power our treatments directly as

> it creates receptiveness in our patients? Just like when argueing

> our points in a discussion, when we " suggest " or needle or listen to

> our patients with loving intention, THEY create the emotional

> environment in themselves to " receive " the treatment or hear our

> point of view (this environment being completely

> biological/neurotransmitter mediated). I wonder if when a patient

> (or discussion mate) cannot be made " receptive " that perhaps no

> point of view/treatment would be " heard " or received. This is not to

> say that diff dx does not matter--the patient may be receptive, but

> the treatment could still not work if our thinking is wrong. But it

> seems that receptivity created by loving/healing intention

> communicated to the patient in so many ways could optimise our

> results.

> Comments?

>

> Shanna

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/3/04 12:30:00 AM, ben_laura writes:

 

<< Most

seemed very Liver and especially phlegm-stagnated, and lo - I couldn't help

them. One guy had a sarcastic sneer on his face while I treated him. I think

for some people, it makes them more satisfied for acupuncture to fail than

for it to work. They are not receptive to the cure. >>

 

I'm not trying to discount what you say here...... but I do think if one

looks at the fact that the fellow did actually show up in someone's office for

treatment, one would have to admit that at least some aspect of this guy does

want help and does want to heal. But obviously, based on his life experiences

so

far, he expects failure. i guess the key would be how to connect with the

part of him that's ready for a new experience. I have found with this type of

patient that the lightest, most compassionate spirit moves them most easily.

 

---roseanne

[Guest guest]

Benjamin, Shanna Roseanne et al,

The sneering *I-know-this-is-not-going-to-work* patient is no stranger to my

doors.

I agree with Shanna and Benjamin that this patient does indeed create a strong

counter force to treatment, however, as Roseanne so correctly points out this

can be overcome with very succesful results.

In the Oath of the Chinese Physician we are told to treat each patient with

comppasion and to simply act with correct intention and proper skill towards

each of them *thus will conscience remain intact and our practice grow day by

day*.

 

I have found that in the vast majority of cases CM has been able to help these

patients and they have -in the manner of most converts- gone on to preach the

virtues of Acupuncture and Traditional Herbal Medicine.

 

My.02

Doc

 

ra6151 wrote:

 

In a message dated 9/3/04 12:30:00 AM, ben_laura writes:

 

<< Most

seemed very Liver and especially phlegm-stagnated, and lo - I couldn't help

them. One guy had a sarcastic sneer on his face while I treated him. I think

for some people, it makes them more satisfied for acupuncture to fail than

for it to work. They are not receptive to the cure. >>

 

I'm not trying to discount what you say here...... but I do think if one

looks at the fact that the fellow did actually show up in someone's office for

treatment, one would have to admit that at least some aspect of this guy does

want help and does want to heal. But obviously, based on his life experiences

so

far, he expects failure. i guess the key would be how to connect with the

part of him that's ready for a new experience. I have found with this type of

patient that the lightest, most compassionate spirit moves them most easily.

 

---roseanne

 

 

" The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,

but because of the people who don't do anything about it. "

-- Albert Einstein

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil:

 

Great post. Some have suggested that acupuncture is a particularly good

placebo right now because it is new to Western patients, high interest in

it, etc.

And they say that like it's a bad thing! If my placebo is better than the

MD's placebo, what does that mean? What is a placebo, in that case?

It's like Cantor's various infinities. My impossible cure works better than

yours....

And the limitation of the placebo to a treatment that the healer doesn't

intend to work affects " therapeutic medicine " , in my opinion, because it

dehumanizes the medicine, abstracting the " therapy " from the therapist and

the patient, breaking the system that optimizes the cure.

 

I have had many experiences of patients who did not want to get better from

acupuncture, either because they were afraid of living a well life, or

because the acupuncture was someone else's idea. And lo - they don’t get

better. While patients who are skeptical but basically open minded tend to

do well. The same is true for healers, I think. If you provide something

regarding which the efficacy is unkown / far fetched, but still worth trying

(the sugar pill was sometimes prescribed in this way), this is different

from giving something to someone you are sure will not work and have no

intention of having work (as in research). I would argue that the former

placebo has superior results to the latter.

 

Has anyone read Ted Kapchuk's paper on the placebo effect? I have a hard

copy, but it may be available on the web now. It's quite interesting.

 

And finally - the concept of the placebo strikes right to the heart of what

" science " is and can be - can it encompass consciousness?

-Ben

 

 

 

Benjamin Hawes, MAOM, Lic. Ac.,

 

CORTEZ FAMILY ACUPUNCTURE

1430 E. Main Street, Suite #4

Cortez, CO 81321

(970) 565-0230

 

 

 

>

> Message: 3

> Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:10:25 -0000

> " " <

> Placebo, Intention (Yi) and medicine

>

> Hi All, & Al,

>

> Al Stone wrote:

> > Phil, You're in ...a great position to validate TCM without needing

> > a placebo group. This is really great information because

> > presumably your animal clientele is not involved with any

> > expectation of relief and so there is no placebo involved. I am

> > curious however if you believe that the animals you treat are

> > sensitive to the intent of the vet. In other words, do they like

> > to have you putting needles into them because you're a comfort or

> > do they pretty much just put up with it because you and all the

> > other two-legged animals seem to think that this pricking thing is

> > important.

>

> Al, I cannot answer your question about possible animal

> expectations, or whether they sense the healer's intent. I believe

> that animals are far more intelligent and intuitive than most people

> think. I also believe (and there are many stories that seem to

> confirm) that animals can be telepathic. However, many vet

> colleagues may disagree with that also.

>

> Al has raised the query about PLACEBO. What does this really

> mean? IMO, this is a crucial question that has far-reaching

> implications for the design of valid experiments in several holistic /

> integrative modalities. More importantly, it is a crucial question that

> EVERY PRACTITIONER, whether working with people and animals

> should explore in depth.

>

> " Placebo " (from the Latin verb " placo, placere (or placare), placavi,

> placatum... " means I will (want to) please (placate, appease, ease,

> pleasure, satisfy, reassure).

>

> The Middle English word " please " comes from the Old French word

> " plaisir " , as in the pleasures of love ...

>

> http://dict.die.net/placebo/ and

> http://www.wordreference.com/definition/placebo

> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=placebo

> say:

> (Placebo: noun): an innocuous or inert medication; given as a

> pacifier or to the control group in experiments on the efficacy of a

> drug;

>

> A prescription intended to humor or satisfy;

>

> A substance containing no medication and prescribed or given to

> reinforce a patient's expectation to get well;

>

> An inactive substance or preparation used as a control in an

> experiment or test to determine the effectiveness of a medicinal

> drug;

>

> Something of no intrinsic remedial value that is used to appease or

> reassure another.

>

> I, and many others, believe that the current, impersonal and

> superficial " medical definition " of placebo (as above), has lost its

> most essential meaning, a meaning of the utmost importance to all

> true healers.

>

> Why do I say that? Because placebo has other meanings that are

> directly related to the WILL or DESIRE to PLEASE / HELP. One is

> (in Roman Catholic ritual): The first word of the first antiphon of the

> service (vespers) for the dead.

>

> This concept of " placebo " goes to its essence, a crucial concept

> that rarely is discussed amongst professionals. It infers

> INVOCATION, calling on G-d, or other " Supernatural beings " to

> listen and act as per the INTENT / wish / prayer expressed in the

> invocation. We will see the crucial relevance of INVOCATION in the

> placebo response later.

>

> IMO, from the dawn of civilisation, true healers KNEW instinctively,

> and by experience of failures, that their personal knowledge was

> inadequate to solve all the " medical problems " that they confronted.

>

> The desire / instinct to help the injured / weak is not just a human

> phenomenon. There are examples amongst animals, especially in

> mother-offspring relationships. Animals try to protect their young;

> some attempt to help injured members of the group. Elephants

> have been seen trying to assist a recumbent herd-mate to regain

> its feet, etc. And elephants (and dogs) can die of grief when a

> beloved comrade or owner dies. See

> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Oaks/3538/elephants.html

>

> Dolphins have saved drowning people, and protected people from

> shark-attack, etc. http://tinyurl.com/5jpjq

>

> IMO, these are examples of the instinct / intention to help / please

> / heal (placebo) from the animal kingdom.

>

> However, on its own, focused INTENTION / desire to heal (Yi) is not

> enough to induce maximal placebo effect in therapy, even if it

> contains the genuine, mystical desire to be part of G-d's Mercy and

> Compassion for the sick and injured.

>

> Two additional ingredients are needed:

>

> (a) CONFIDENCE (by the healer, and, if possible by the subject) in

> the method being used,

> and

> (b) the SUBJECT'S instinctive awareness that the healer is doing

> his/her best AND has confidence in the OUTCOME.

>

> Lack of confidence by the healer in the clinical outcome transmits

> easily (if only by body-language) to the subject. Unconscious

> frowns, slight shakes of the head, not making eye-contact when

> asked will it be OK, etc, signal " bad vibes " to the [human] subject.

> IMO, the best results are hard to attain in subjects that have " given

> up " mentally.

>

> Sadly, many members of our white-coated, stethoscope-draped,

> hassled and over-worked medical colleagues seem to have

> forgotten that essential meaning of placebo.

>

> Saying to a cancer patient: " We'll cut out the tumour / organ, put

> you on local radiotherapy and follow up with several rounds of

> chemotherapy " already says to the subject: " We know / suspect

> that your cancer is already metastatic. Get your affairs in order

> soon! "

>

> What effect does does that have on a worried or nervous Mrs.

> Murphy, or Mr. Smith?

>

> IMO, going through the motions of prescribing a drug (or other

> remedy, or an unmedicted lactose tablet, or a " dummy needle " ), in

> which the THERAPIST has no belief / confidence, is NOT a full

> placebo, whether it be done for research or other reasons.

>

> In most cultures, medicine originally was the preserve of the Healer-

> Priest, Shaman, Witch-Doctor and Wise One. In Biblical times,

> prayer was an integral part of healing. Christ, and other great

> religious leaders, were said to be healers, even to the extent of

> raising the dead. In the early Christan church, healing was part of

> priesthood: " Go, heal the sick " .

>

> But we live in changed times. We are better educated (?) and more

> technically-oriented. Instead of being a G-d-inspired calling

> (vocation) to ease the suffering of humanity, medicine is becoming

> a very expensive high-tech business, far removed from its original

> roots in priesthood and mysticism - wanting to be G-d's Hands

> to ease suffering in this world.

>

> Whether we treat humans or animals, while trying to heal, some of

> us have an occasional mind-blowing mystical sense of wonder and

> absoluts conviction of the Unity of Everything. I have had 2-3 of

> those stunning moments in circa 40 years of working as a health

> professional. Although I cannot describe them adequately to you,

> or the profound impact that they had on my " world-view " , I wish that

> that state of mind could be a normal, everyday part of my life. BUt

> it is not; it is a rare experience, a tantalising glimpse into the world

> of the Divine.

>

> In that sense of wonder and worship of the Divine, when one

> focuses on, or CONSCIOUSLY INVOKES the full idea of " placebo "

> [i WILL please (help, assist, heal) in the Name of G-d, AND with G-

> d's help], and especially if one can transmit the sense of G-d's

> unconditional love to the subject, incredible outcomes are possible.

> In that situation, I/you heal nothing but merely transmit healing

> from G-d, the Great Healer.

>

> Al, and colleagues, please do not get me wrong. I am not having a

> " nervous breakdown " , nor am I claiming anything extraordinary for

> myself. I am nothing but a spirit housed in an ageing body. I am

> really no different from any of you; we are fallible beings with limited

> knowledge and many failings. Few if any of us will attain sainthood

> / Buddhahood in this life. We must get on with our daily work / play

> / family business, etc, keep the Bank Manager off our backs, guide

> the kids, be neighbourly, etc. We do our best with the resources at

> our disposal.

>

> Many on this List may not believe in spirit, G-d, or other " irrational,

> superstitious and esoteric " concepts. Some of you hold fast to the

> fallacy that science will explain everything in time, and that AP &

> TCM should be trying to copy and apply the principles of EBM. I

> used to think that way, but no more.

>

> IMO, at best, science may explain physical (and maybe

> pschological) mechanisms and interactions, and predict outcomes

> to specific inputs. But, IMO, science will not, and cannot, put

> meaning on life, console the longing of many people for basic

> human rights and dignity, justice, happiness etc. The latter areas

> are best handled by philosophy, theology, parapsychology, the

> arts, etc.

>

> IMO, we are too late to try to play catch-up with EBM, especially

> by THEIR rules. We have not unlimited billions of dollars at our

> disposal to set up extensive research trials on thousands of

> different projects, and the multinationals and hospital industries are

> unlikely to provide funding for such projects.

>

> Yes, I would like to see far more high-quality research done on

> TCM, but integrative medicine must develop ITS OWN standards of

> critical appraisal that take its unique interactions of spirit-mind-

> soma, its unique interplay between healer and subject, and its

> unique attempt to prescribe for the INDIVIDUAL (not a standardised

> " one formula for all subjects-in-the-group " ) into account.

>

> [There is a place for " standardised formulas " in some areas of

> research (such as artemisinin in malaria, PC06 in vomiting; BL67 in

> breech presentation, etc). However, in complex cases, AP points

> (or herbal/homeopathic formulas) need to be chosen for each

> individual, and these selections may need to be changed at

> subsequent visits from the same individuals.

>

> IMO, we need a much more comprehensive examination of the

> definition of PLACEBO, and its applications in research and clinical

> practice. Sorry for the long post, but you can all blame Al for

> triggering these thoughts! Thanks, Al!

>

> For further insights into Yi (INTENTION), see: " MEDICINE IS

> SIGNIFICATION " - MOVING TOWARDS HEALING POWER IN

> THE CHINESE MEDICAL TRADITION by Volker Scheid Ph.D. and

> Dan Bensky D.O., reprinted by permission of the European Journal

> of Oriental Medicine:

> http://www.siom.com/resources/texts/articles/v-scheid/yizhe.html

>

> If you have not read that article, you are in for a surprise, because

> it stresses the importance of the therapist's Yi/Intention in all

> therapy.

>

> See also http://vetlab.co.uk/voodoo/thoresen.html

>

> It is an insulting comment by Voodoo Society [a group similar to

> Quackbusters] on Are Thoresen's ideas. That Society is to be

> thanked for putting Are's ideas on WWW, because many more

> people will read them and interpret their importance differently to

> what the Voodoo Society might like!

>

> Are's main message in that article is: " As veterinarians, when we

> treat animals, we must pay much more attention to our own Yí,

> and to the psyche of our patients. "

>

> See also: http://www.chinese-medicine.co.uk/articles/philos.htm

>

> I'm off to the bunker now, for I can sense incoming missiles

> triggered by some of you by the suggestion that Spirit, prayer, or

> the paranormal has any practical role in modern medicine,

> including modern AP and herbalism!

>

> Great Qi and Yi to you all,

> Phil

>

> PS: Some vets disagree with my relegation of stimulators to a

> dusty shelf. Some routinely use electro-AP; lasers, ultrasound,

> Dermojet, point-injection, homeo-AP, etc. That is to be expected

> because each practitioner (like Old Blue Eyes) is an individual, and

> would like to think: " I did it MY way ... " . And some of them use

> high-tech stimulators because their CLIENTS expect that, or are

> impressed by the price-tag on the gizmo.

>