Shao yang pivot

[Guest guest]

Hi can some one explain the concept of shao yang pivot as used in acupuncture as

well as herbal medicine, theirs not that much written info in this topic.

Thanks in advanced.

Gabe Fuentes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , gabe gabe

<fuentes120> wrote:

> Hi can some one explain the concept of shao yang pivot as used in

acupuncture as well as herbal medicine, theirs not that much written

info in this topic.

> Thanks in advanced.

> Gabe Fuentes

>

>

Hi,

 

There are many explainations from many angles. I will try to offer my

understanding:

 

1. Cicurlation of qi.

 

Shao Yang plays a pivotal role in circulation of qi. Stagnation of qi

is usually related to Shao Yang. Once qi cannot circulate properly, a

lot of other functions will be affected e.g. digestion.

 

2. Regulation of temperature.

 

Shao Yang helps to regulate temperature. If Shao Yang's function is

affected, one will feel cold or hot in an alternating manner e.g.

like symptoms in dengue fever or malaria.

 

IMO, " pivot " is an excellent keyword in describing the role of Shao

Yang.

 

Thanks

 

Jit Kiat

 

Zhong Hwa TCM College, Singapore

[Guest guest]

As Jit Kiat pointed out, there are a variety of interesting aspects in

which one can consider ShaoYang (GB and SanJiao) in the sense of pivot.

Some further ones:

 

-- mediating between TaiYang and YangMing

-- topographically on the leg and arm

-- as varying between cold (TaiYang) and heat (YangMing)

 

-- In sinew channel (jin jing) energetics

-- as the musculo-skeletal dynamic of twisting and turning of the arm, leg

or body (in extension), e.g. between the TaiYang dynamic of

reaching/extending and the YangMing dynamic of grasping or holding. In this

interpretation, the TaiYang motions are to walk with the feet (UB) towards

the goal (seen with the eyes, where TaiYang begins), and to reach out with

the arms (SI, especially at scapular region). Then the ShaoYang

twists/turns to adjust the extension to the exact location and angle, where

the YangMing can grasp (LI channel, close the hand), hold, and bring to the

mouth (St channel), as the goal of the Yang dynamic and transition to the

TaiYin phase of internalization (SP digestion).

 

-- (GB) topographically on the side of the body

-- GB-20 back -> GB-22/23/24 front -> GB 25/26 back -> GB 27-29 front ->

GB-30 back

 

-- GB (energetics) as decision point between two directions in dealing with

pathology:

-- resolution (to the surface and out)

-- latency (into the interior and holding)

Related: GB as the last Yang in the 24-hour clock of the primary channels,

corresponds to the end-of-cycle/late-life critical point when latent issues

(in close conjunction with the DaiMai where things get held, e.g. as

damp-heat) need to be confronted (resolved), to avoid rigidity that would

constrain the Liver (the next and last period of the cycle). From a (or at

least some) Daoist perspective (and related to Buddhist influence), if such

resolution fails to take place, then thru the Liver phase, which is also

rebirth/springtime, the next incarnation will carry forward the " karma " of

the unresolved/latent issues.

 

-- GB (fu) as pivot (point of commonality) between the regular zangfu and

the " curious organs " (qi heng zhi fu), e.g. GB (through its partner, the

Liver) as the zangfu direct connection to the brain (also a curious organ)

-- Liver channel connects with the brain at Du-20

-- complex GB channel pattern on the head as pathway for siphoning

pathogenic heat away from the brain.

-- The somewhat curious, occasionally referenced relationship of the GB to

the Heart, i.e. as ersatz Ruler.

 

 

 

References/sources:

 

Taped lecture by Jeffery Yuen, " Gall Bladder Energetics " , from CSOMA

[formerly CAA] conference August 2002 in San Francisco (available

commercially through conferencerecording.com).

 

(sinew channel dynamics) from other lectures by Jeffery Yuen.

 

The book on the curious organs " (qi heng zhi fu) by Claude Larre and

Elizabeth Rochat de la Vallee. Monkey Press.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine ,

<@w...> wrote:

 

> -- as the musculo-skeletal dynamic of twisting and turning

of the arm, leg

> or body (in extension), e.g. between the TaiYang dynamic of

> reaching/extending and the YangMing dynamic of grasping or holding.

In this

> interpretation, the TaiYang motions are to walk with the feet (UB)

towards

> the goal (seen with the eyes, where TaiYang begins), and to reach

out with

> the arms (SI, especially at scapular region). Then the ShaoYang

> twists/turns to adjust the extension to the exact location and

angle, where

> the YangMing can grasp (LI channel, close the hand), hold, and

bring to the

> mouth (St channel), as the goal of the Yang dynamic and transition

to the

> TaiYin phase of internalization (SP digestion).

>

 

Hmm ... very interesting. Is this a new theory derived from Huang Di

Ne Jing ?

[Guest guest]

Tan Jit Kiat [jitkiatt]

Thursday, September 02, 2004 9:50 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Shao yang pivot

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , gabe gabe

<fuentes120> wrote:

> Hi can some one explain the concept of shao yang pivot as used in

acupuncture as well as herbal medicine, theirs not that much written

info in this topic.

> Thanks in advanced.

> Gabe Fuentes

>

>

Hi,

 

There are many explainations from many angles. I will try to offer my

understanding:

 

1. Cicurlation of qi.

 

Shao Yang plays a pivotal role in circulation of qi. Stagnation of qi

is usually related to Shao Yang. Once qi cannot circulate properly, a

lot of other functions will be affected e.g. digestion.

 

[Jason]

 

I am curious where this is from? I have never thought of it that way?

Actually I think of what you describe attributed to the qi hua (Qi

mechanism) of the body. One can have stagnation in many places that IMO are

neither related to the shaoyang or the liver. Can you quote me a source

please. I think to understand the fundamentals of the shaoyang one should

start with the SHL.

 

 

 

-

 

2. Regulation of temperature.

 

Shao Yang helps to regulate temperature. If Shao Yang's function is

affected, one will feel cold or hot in an alternating manner e.g.

like symptoms in dengue fever or malaria.

 

IMO, " pivot " is an excellent keyword in describing the role of Shao

Yang.

 

Thanks

 

Jit Kiat

 

Zhong Hwa TCM College, Singapore

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...> wrote:

> Tan Jit Kiat [jitkiatt]

> Thursday, September 02, 2004 9:50 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Shao yang pivot

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , gabe gabe

> <fuentes120> wrote:

> > Hi can some one explain the concept of shao yang pivot as used in

> acupuncture as well as herbal medicine, theirs not that much

written

> info in this topic.

> > Thanks in advanced.

> > Gabe Fuentes

> >

> >

> Hi,

>

> There are many explainations from many angles. I will try to offer

my

> understanding:

>

> 1. Cicurlation of qi.

>

> Shao Yang plays a pivotal role in circulation of qi. Stagnation of

qi

> is usually related to Shao Yang. Once qi cannot circulate properly,

a

> lot of other functions will be affected e.g. digestion.

>

> [Jason]

>

> I am curious where this is from? I have never thought of it that

way?

> Actually I think of what you describe attributed to the qi hua (Qi

> mechanism) of the body. One can have stagnation in many places

that IMO are

> neither related to the shaoyang or the liver. Can you quote me a

source

> please. I think to understand the fundamentals of the shaoyang one

should

> start with the SHL.

>

>

>

> -

>

 

Hi Jason,

 

This understanding is from a practical point of view. If you look at

SHL's Xiao Chai Hu Tang, the principal herb is Chai Hu. Besides the

usual property of dispelling wind heat, Chai Hu is used here to raise

stagnation of liver qi due to its effect of raising Yang Qi. If you

look at other herbs in Xiao Chai Hu like " Huang Qin " and " Ban Xia " ,

the former is to help Chai Hu to dispel the evil Shao Yang fire and

the latter is to treat vomitting/loss of apetite. Both vomitting/loss

of apetite and Shao Yang fire occurs due to stagnation of liver qi.

Chai Hu helps to the qi's ascent. Huang Qin and Ban Xia helps the

qi's descent. The liver's qi's ascent helps the spleen (bi) function

while qi descent helps to restore the stomatch (wei) function.

Overall, it is one of the most reliable way of restoring digestive

function as long as Shao Yang Zheng is present.

 

From a theorectical point of view, you are right in pointing out that

qi can get stagnated not just at liver or Shao Yang. However, in

practice, stagnation of qi will invariably require use of herbs that

enter liver. This is also consistent with Zhang Fu theory where the

most important liver's function is " shu xie " - don't know how to

translate this word though.

 

For further reference:

http://.org/articles/allergies.shtml

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Jit Kiat

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

 

This understanding is from a practical point of view. If you look at

SHL's Xiao Chai Hu Tang, the principal herb is Chai Hu. Besides the

usual property of dispelling wind heat, Chai Hu is used here to raise

stagnation of liver qi due to its effect of raising Yang Qi. If you

look at other herbs in Xiao Chai Hu like " Huang Qin " and " Ban Xia " ,

the former is to help Chai Hu to dispel the evil Shao Yang fire and

the latter is to treat vomitting/loss of apetite. Both vomitting/loss

of apetite and Shao Yang fire occurs due to stagnation of liver qi.

Chai Hu helps to the qi's ascent. Huang Qin and Ban Xia helps the

qi's descent. The liver's qi's ascent helps the spleen (bi) function

while qi descent helps to restore the stomatch (wei) function.

Overall, it is one of the most reliable way of restoring digestive

function as long as Shao Yang Zheng is present.

 

From a theorectical point of view, you are right in pointing out that

qi can get stagnated not just at liver or Shao Yang. However, in

practice, stagnation of qi will invariably require use of herbs that

enter liver. This is also consistent with Zhang Fu theory where the

most important liver's function is " shu xie " - don't know how to

translate this word though.

 

For further reference:

http://.org/articles/allergies.shtml

 

 

 

[Jason]

 

 

 

Well there are a couple things we should explore.

 

1st and most important is just because you use xiao chai hu tang for a given

condition does not, at all, mean that you are dealing with the shaoyang

pivot. Xiao chai hu tang has been long expanded past that point. So the

whole argument that because the formula contains chai hu that it must be

working in the shaoyang pivot is also incorrect. (was that what you were

saying?)

 

2) Your article that you cite seems to be discussing the qi mechanism (what

I previously mentioned) not the shaoyang pivot. These are (as mentioned)

different issues) (granted I didn't read the whole article, so if I missed

something please point it out to me). Also xiao chai hu tang is not one of

the main formulas for digestive disorders or disorders with the qi mechanism

(at least in the mainstream TCM).

 

3) Looking at the SHL - we see that a shaoyang disorder is one where the

pathogen is alternating between the interior or exterior (some say trapped

in-between the interior & exterior). The above Rx (but primarily chai hu

WITH huang qin) is designed to evict that pathogen. According to Dan

Bensky, SHL theory and thinking really has very little to do with regulating

zang fu function, i.e. qi mechanism, it is really about evicting pathogens.

Therefore one should 1st conceptualize the shaoyang within that framework to

truly understand it. (this does not say that SHL rx's are not used to

operate beyond evicting pathogens and working on a zang-fu functional

level.) But the theory has a direct root to a 'pathogen' being stuck, not

necessarily the liver qi. So just moving liver qi in no way (IMO) means you

are working on the shaoyang pivot.

 

4) Stagnation of qi DOES NOT always require the use of liver herbs. That is

just a fact.

 

5) So I will question still your above contention or 'practical experience'

and ask for some source that supports this idea. I think this stretching of

theory (IMHO) to match clinical practice can be a slippery slope.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...> wrote:

 

 

> Well there are a couple things we should explore.

>

> 1st and most important is just because you use xiao chai hu tang

for a given

> condition does not, at all, mean that you are dealing with the

shaoyang

> pivot. Xiao chai hu tang has been long expanded past that point.

So the

> whole argument that because the formula contains chai hu that it

must be

> working in the shaoyang pivot is also incorrect. (was that what

you were

> saying?)

>

> 2) Your article that you cite seems to be discussing the qi

mechanism (what

> I previously mentioned) not the shaoyang pivot. These are (as

mentioned)

> different issues) (granted I didn't read the whole article, so if I

missed

> something please point it out to me). Also xiao chai hu tang is not

one of

> the main formulas for digestive disorders or disorders with the qi

mechanism

> (at least in the mainstream TCM).

>

> 3) Looking at the SHL - we see that a shaoyang disorder is one

where the

> pathogen is alternating between the interior or exterior (some say

trapped

> in-between the interior & exterior). The above Rx (but primarily

chai hu

> WITH huang qin) is designed to evict that pathogen. According to

Dan

> Bensky, SHL theory and thinking really has very little to do with

regulating

> zang fu function, i.e. qi mechanism, it is really about evicting

pathogens.

> Therefore one should 1st conceptualize the shaoyang within that

framework to

> truly understand it. (this does not say that SHL rx's are not used

to

> operate beyond evicting pathogens and working on a zang-fu

functional

> level.) But the theory has a direct root to a 'pathogen' being

stuck, not

> necessarily the liver qi. So just moving liver qi in no way (IMO)

means you

> are working on the shaoyang pivot.

>

> 4) Stagnation of qi DOES NOT always require the use of liver

herbs. That is

> just a fact.

>

> 5) So I will question still your above contention or 'practical

experience'

> and ask for some source that supports this idea. I think this

stretching of

> theory (IMHO) to match clinical practice can be a slippery slope.

>

>

Hi Jason,

 

I believe " Shao Yang pivot " first appeared in Ne Jing where Shao Yang

is discussed together with Tai Yang and Yang Ming. Zhang Ji, in his

SHL, does not even mention the word " pivot " in his Shao Yang

analysis. Subsequently, I have not come across any authoritative

material on what exactly " Shao Yang Pivot " means. Personally I

believe " Shao Yang Pivot " means that Shao Yang plays a pivotal role.

It is the pivot for Tang Yang and Yang Ming. It is also the pivot for

ascent of qi and descent of qi. Obviously, I am influenced by Zhang

Fu theory as well as Zhang Xi Chun's explanation on Shao Yang. In

TCM, one word can carry different meanings in different contexts.

Threfore, it is my belief that " Shao Yang Pivot " should be approached

from different perspectives. Of course, your opinion that it shoud be

explained based on SHL, is also a valid perspective.

 

Thanks

 

Jit Kiat

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

 

I believe " Shao Yang pivot " first appeared in Ne Jing where Shao Yang

is discussed together with Tai Yang and Yang Ming. Zhang Ji, in his

SHL, does not even mention the word " pivot " in his Shao Yang

analysis.

 

[Jason]

 

Yes but commentary on the SHL is riddled with the use of the word pivot!

For it is said it opening lines of the SHL commentary, " shao4 yang2 wei2

shu1 " " Lesser yang is the pivot. " When someone says shao yang pivot, that

is (for me) most definitely, what comes to mind first. I have actually

never heard it discussed in any other context. Have you? I am unaware

where the neijing discussed the SY pivot, could you point me in that

direction. How does it differ?

 

 

 

Subsequently, I have not come across any authoritative

material on what exactly " Shao Yang Pivot " means.

 

[Jason]

 

IS the SHL & the commentary not a good source? These discussions are quite

clear IMO.

 

 

 

Personally I

believe " Shao Yang Pivot " means that Shao Yang plays a pivotal role.

It is the pivot for Tang Yang and Yang Ming. It is also the pivot for

ascent of qi and descent of qi.

 

[Jason]

 

Well I think it is a little more involved than that.

 

 

 

Obviously, I am influenced by Zhang

Fu theory as well as Zhang Xi Chun's explanation on Shao Yang. In

TCM, one word can carry different meanings in different contexts.

Threfore, it is my belief that " Shao Yang Pivot " should be approached

from different perspectives.

 

[Jason]

 

I think everything should be approached by as many possible angles as

possible. The problem is when people start making up their own angles,

without proper experience and education. This is MSU. If you have a

different angle, then present it. But If that angle is drastically

different than mainstream theory (which was the case to the previous pivot

explanation) I have to ask, let us see some source that says this. We can

then evaluate the source and compare it to mainstream theory and see if it

has some value. But if the source is just, " this is what I have

experienced " , and it sounds fishy, then I personally question it. But

please if you have something to support what has been said I would love to

see it. I think what I have presented is very clearly articulated in

numerous sources, it is the essence of SHL shao yang theory. But I always

would like see other ideas. Can you present what Zhang xi Chun says?

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...> wrote:

>

> Hi Jason,

>

> I believe " Shao Yang pivot " first appeared in Ne Jing where Shao

Yang

> is discussed together with Tai Yang and Yang Ming. Zhang Ji, in his

> SHL, does not even mention the word " pivot " in his Shao Yang

> analysis.

>

> [Jason]

>

> Yes but commentary on the SHL is riddled with the use of the word

pivot!

> For it is said it opening lines of the SHL commentary, " shao4 yang2

wei2

> shu1 " " Lesser yang is the pivot. " When someone says shao yang

pivot, that

> is (for me) most definitely, what comes to mind first. I have

actually

> never heard it discussed in any other context. Have you? I am

unaware

> where the neijing discussed the SY pivot, could you point me in that

> direction. How does it differ?

 

[JK] Jason, SHL is a further development of Nei Jing. The ideas of 3

Yangs and 3 Yings are all based on Nei Jing. In the Su Wen's " `f–â‰A—z

—£‡˜_ " , " `¾—zˆ×ŠJC—z–¾ˆ×èŽC­—zˆ×žâ " . Basically it means Tai Yang

as opening, Yang Ming as closure, Shao Yang as pivot. Your above-

mentioned commentary on SHL originates from this Nei Jing I believe.

the interpretation of Tai Yang as opening, Yang Ming as closure and

Shao Yang as pivot are left to individual interpretation of course.

 

>

> Subsequently, I have not come across any authoritative

> material on what exactly " Shao Yang Pivot " means.

>

> [Jason]

>

> IS the SHL & the commentary not a good source? These discussions

are quite

> clear IMO.

 

[JK] But Zhang Ji never once mentions the word " pivot " in SHL. That

is a fact. The commentary is basically quoting Nei Jing's idea on

Shao Yang pivot.

 

>

>

> Personally I

> believe " Shao Yang Pivot " means that Shao Yang plays a pivotal

role.

> It is the pivot for Tang Yang and Yang Ming. It is also the pivot

for

> ascent of qi and descent of qi.

>

> [Jason]

>

> Well I think it is a little more involved than that.

>

>

>

> Obviously, I am influenced by Zhang

> Fu theory as well as Zhang Xi Chun's explanation on Shao Yang. In

> TCM, one word can carry different meanings in different contexts.

> Threfore, it is my belief that " Shao Yang Pivot " should be

approached

> from different perspectives.

>

> [Jason]

>

> I think everything should be approached by as many possible angles

as

> possible. The problem is when people start making up their own

angles,

> without proper experience and education. This is MSU. If you have

a

> different angle, then present it. But If that angle is drastically

> different than mainstream theory (which was the case to the

previous pivot

> explanation) I have to ask, let us see some source that says this.

We can

> then evaluate the source and compare it to mainstream theory and

see if it

> has some value. But if the source is just, " this is what I have

> experienced " , and it sounds fishy, then I personally question it.

But

> please if you have something to support what has been said I would

love to

> see it. I think what I have presented is very clearly articulated

in

> numerous sources, it is the essence of SHL shao yang theory. But I

always

> would like see other ideas. Can you present what Zhang xi Chun says?

>

> Regards,

> -

>

 

[JK] Really, I should not have spent the time to translate what Zhang

Xi Chun said in " Yi Xue Zhong Zhong Can Xi Lu " but may be this book

is not so well-known so I will do my best to translate related

portion only:

 

In his explanation of " Shen1 Jiang4 Tang1 " :

==================================================

Human's Zhang and Fu, Spleen and Sotmatch belongs to Earth, Earth can

contain other elements. The qi of Liver should ascend. However, only

when the Spleen qi ascends, then only liver qi will ascend. The fire

of GallBladder should descend but only when the Stomach qi descends.

In Nei Jing's discussion of Jue Ying Liver, there is " Adjust the

middle qi, let it in balance " . Treatment for Jue Ying Liver as such,

the same applies to Shao Yang. Zhang Ji inherits Nei Jing and wrote

SHL, treatment of Shao Yang uses Xiao Chai Hu Tang. In Xiao Chao Hu

Tang: Ginseng, Ban Xia, Gan Cao, Da Zao adjust the Spleen and

Stomach, consistent with Nei Jing's " Adjust the middle qi, let it be

in balance " . Also in treatment of Jue Ying Liver, there is " Wu2 Zhu1

Yi2 Tang1 " , which uses Ginseng and Da Zhao to benefit the Spleen and

Stomach. Also in Xiao Chai Hu, Chai Hu is the primary herb. Although

it is classified as Shao Yang's herb but in " Ben Jing " , Chai Hu can

treat qi stagnation in the digestion system, indigestion of food,

purging the old and resulting in new. If one conducts research

in " Ben Jing " , Chai Hu is actually herb of Yang Ming but at the same

time can be used to treat Shao Yang.

[Guest guest]

[JK] Jason, SHL is a further development of Nei Jing. The ideas of 3

Yangs and 3 Yings are all based on Nei Jing. In the Su Wen's " `f–â‰A—z

—£Â‡˜_ " , " `¾—zˆ×ŠJÂC—z–¾ˆ×èŽÂC­—zˆ×žâ " .

Basically it means Tai Yang

as opening, Yang Ming as closure, Shao Yang as pivot. Your above-

mentioned commentary on SHL originates from this Nei Jing I believe.

the interpretation of Tai Yang as opening, Yang Ming as closure and

Shao Yang as pivot are left to individual interpretation of course.

 

[Jason]

 

 

 

1) No one ever said ZZJ used the word pivot

 

2) To say that what is said in the SHL is irrelevant because it is a further

development of the nei jing is ludicrous. If this were true everything in CM

and TCM is from the neijing. I.e. lurking pathogens were first mentioned in the

neijing, yet the real development did not happen until the wen bing era. The

nanjing is considered further commentary of the neijing yet it presents

completely different and expanded material… SHL might use similar terminology,

as ZZJ had neijing influence, but his ideas and development are a step beyond.

And I really doubt the commentary discussing the SHL is straight from the

neijing. And like I have said, when someone talks about the shaoyang pivot, at

least in my mind and many others, they think about the SHL. When people say

lurking pathogen they think wen bing (NOT neijing)… Neijing mentions many

ideas, but those ideas were not developed until later on.

 

3) Even if the SHL commentary is STRAIGHT from the neijing, it would still

support my take on what shaoyang pivot is… I have a source for an explanation

of what it is, and I have presented it. Wherever it may be from, I am

semi-clear on it’s meaning. It was asked what is the shaoyang pivot… the

SHL commentary presents a GREAT explanation… All of this diversion is just a

red herring because you have yet to source any differing source that supports

your viewpoint (mentioned a few posts ago) on what the shaoyang pivot is… For

example, your quote below does not even mention the shaoyang pivot!... In my

mind there is a difference between the term ‘shaoyang’, ‘shaoyang pivot’

& ‘qi mechanism’ … Your characters did come through above so if you could

resend them in English I will check out your neijing source. But to date I have

never read the exact commentary from the shl in the neijing, and don’t think I

ever will… SHL has expanded and further defined many things like the shaoyang

pivot.

 

4) The shaoyang pivot (when encumbered) produces specific s/s that one can

treat by unhinging the pivot. XCHT is the most common formula for this. But I

am clear that qi stagnation in general does not equal a problem with the

shaoyang pivot, and just because one uses chai hu or even XCHT does not mean

that one is treating the Shaoyang pivot.

 

 

 

 

 

>

> Subsequently, I have not come across any authoritative

> material on what exactly " Shao Yang Pivot " means.

>

> [Jason]

>

> IS the SHL & the commentary not a good source? These discussions

are quite

> clear IMO.

 

[JK] But Zhang Ji never once mentions the word " pivot " in SHL. That

is a fact. The commentary is basically quoting Nei Jing's idea on

Shao Yang pivot.

 

[Jason]

 

Does it matter where it originated from? But again I disagree and would like to

see it… like I said above there is much discussion on the topic in the SHL

commentary. But if you find all of this in the neijing, I wonder why your

version is so much different from mine…? I am going straight from the SHL…

 

 

 

>

>

 

[JK] Really, I should not have spent the time to translate what Zhang

Xi Chun said in " Yi Xue Zhong Zhong Can Xi Lu " but may be this book

is not so well-known so I will do my best to translate related

portion only:

 

In his explanation of " Shen1 Jiang4 Tang1 " :

==================================================

Human's Zhang and Fu, Spleen and Sotmatch belongs to Earth, Earth can

contain other elements. The qi of Liver should ascend. However, only

when the Spleen qi ascends, then only liver qi will ascend. The fire

of GallBladder should descend but only when the Stomach qi descends.

In Nei Jing's discussion of Jue Ying Liver, there is " Adjust the

middle qi, let it in balance " . Treatment for Jue Ying Liver as such,

the same applies to Shao Yang. Zhang Ji inherits Nei Jing and wrote

SHL, treatment of Shao Yang uses Xiao Chai Hu Tang. In Xiao Chao Hu

Tang: Ginseng, Ban Xia, Gan Cao, Da Zao adjust the Spleen and

Stomach, consistent with Nei Jing's " Adjust the middle qi, let it be

in balance " . Also in treatment of Jue Ying Liver, there is " Wu2 Zhu1

Yi2 Tang1 " , which uses Ginseng and Da Zhao to benefit the Spleen and

Stomach. Also in Xiao Chai Hu, Chai Hu is the primary herb. Although

it is classified as Shao Yang's herb but in " Ben Jing " , Chai Hu can

treat qi stagnation in the digestion system, indigestion of food,

purging the old and resulting in new. If one conducts research

in " Ben Jing " , Chai Hu is actually herb of Yang Ming but at the same

time can be used to treat Shao Yang.

 

[Jason]

 

I find this such an oversimplification of the shaoyang and XCHT… I further

find this unclear and murky…. looking at bensky or mitchell’s(SHL)

commentraty on XCHT is well worth reviewing…

 

1st – the pivot is not discussed above, so this really gives us nothing…

 

2) there are other herbs that treat shaoyang diseases other than XCHT…

 

3) The pivot is the pathomechanism that is used to explain the symptomology. It

is not the general term (i.e.’shaoyang’) for a type of disease. These are

inherently different. People use the term shaoyang for many many things…

 

4) Many sources previous use the term shaoyang just to indicate i.e. the liver.

Or i.e. yangming meaning stomach. This has nothing to do with the shaoyang

pivot (a different idea)… Saying that an herb treats the GB or LV may or

maynot have anything to do with the pathomechanism of the pivot. To sum up, to

date I has see zero evidence to counter what is written the SHL commentary about

the pivot! But hey in your mind anything that says shaoyang might be synonymous

with the shaoyang pivot. I would suggest more precision, and IMO this

discussion is mixing apples and oranges… Please present something that

discussed shaoyang pivot and we can continue…

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:39:18, " "

wrote:

 

>>3) The pivot is the pathomechanism that is used to explain the

symptomology. It is not the general term (i.e. " shaoyang " ) for a type of

disease. These are inherently different. People use the term shaoyang for

many many things!

 

From the Introduction to the Mitchell/Ye/Wiseman edition of the Shang Han

Lun (1), page 12:

 

" The lesser yang2 is often referred to as the 'pivot' (shu1), the central

element of the three yang2. When disease evil enters the lesser yang, it

causes inhibition of the pivot (shu1 ji1 bu4 li4) [source?]… Thus in lesser

yang, the disease, as it were, oscillates on the pivot. Basically, the

pivot is one aspect of the 'qi dyadic' (qi4 ji1). Inhibition of the qi

dynamic is lesser yang disease can have varied consequences, notably

disturbance of spleen and stomach function… "

 

The initial sentences here appear to interpret 'pivot' as a general synonym

and metaphor for shaoyang. The later statement, describing the pivot as an

aspect of the 'qi dynamic', leads me to point out that, according to some

authorities, classical metaphors, like the six channel progression in the

SHL, can be interpreted in three basic ways: as describing physiology,

describing pathology, and as organizing treatment. In a specific context,

i.e. SHL, shaoyang can be understood as disease. In CM classics in general,

its meaning cannot be limited in this way.

 

As to precision of sources, the editors of this edition admit (page xiii)

that their " commentaries consist of two different types of information: a

compilation of textual interpretations from the modern literature, and

direct translations of classical commentary. " Without noting which is

which. This would appear to approximate what Jason refers to as " mainstream

TCM " .

 

In the general introduction to shaoyang, page 407:

 

" The pivot refers the position of the lesser yang between the greater yang

and the yang brightness. The lesser yang governs the pivot, and its

functions are crucial in the movement of qi between the different regions

of the body. " Further " …an evil has entered the lesser yang. It congests

the pivot and impairs qi movement. "

 

Clearly (in these passages), 'pivot' is a general descriptive term for

shaoyang functionality, like qi dynamic. It becomes pathological when

" congested " , and as the qi when " impaired " .

 

Given that the concept of pivot is not used in the SHL itself, but appeared

earlier in the NeiJing/SuWen, the assertion that the concept should be

understood only according to the SHL, i.e. in the name of these otherwise

un-sourced commentaries, is less than conclusively proven.

 

 

 

1) Mitchell, C, Feng Y, Wiseman N. Shang Han Lun - On Cold Damage. Paradigm

Publications, Brookline MA, 1999.

[Guest guest]

_____

 

[]

Sunday, September 12, 2004 1:16 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Shao yang pivot

 

 

 

Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:39:18, " "

wrote:

 

>>3) The pivot is the pathomechanism that is used to explain the

symptomology. It is not the general term (i.e. " shaoyang " ) for a type of

disease. These are inherently different. People use the term shaoyang for

many many things!

 

From the Introduction to the Mitchell/Ye/Wiseman edition of the Shang Han

Lun (1), page 12:

 

" The lesser yang2 is often referred to as the 'pivot' (shu1), the central

element of the three yang2. When disease evil enters the lesser yang, it

causes inhibition of the pivot (shu1 ji1 bu4 li4) [source?]. Thus in lesser

yang, the disease, as it were, oscillates on the pivot. Basically, the

pivot is one aspect of the 'qi dyadic' (qi4 ji1). Inhibition of the qi

dynamic is lesser yang disease can have varied consequences, notably

disturbance of spleen and stomach function. "

 

The initial sentences here appear to interpret 'pivot' as a general synonym

and metaphor for shaoyang.

 

[Jason]

 

 

 

Chris,

 

 

 

Let us try to clarify: A couple of things:

 

1) In this situation (SHL) it can be a synonym, I.e. a shaoyang disease

implies a malfunction in the pivot. but in other situations people use

shaoyang in a way that has nothing to do with the SHL shaoyang or shaoyang

pivot.

 

It doesn't mean that anywhere that the term shaoyang is used refers to this

idea of shaoyang pivot.

 

2) but as seen below there are 2 ideas of pivot 1) in relation to the

yangming and taiyang & 2) as a pathodynamic.

 

 

 

(chris)The later statement, describing the pivot as an

aspect of the 'qi dynamic',

 

[Jason]

 

Exactly (an aspect of the qi dynamic.) But you cannot reverse this argument

and say that the qi dynamic is synonymous with shaoyang pivot, that is my

point. They are very different (see below). Do you not agree?

 

 

 

(chris)leads me to point out that, according to some

authorities, classical metaphors, like the six channel progression in the

SHL, can be interpreted in three basic ways: as describing physiology,

describing pathology, and as organizing treatment.

 

[Jason]

 

I see

 

1) the organizing statement (in-between the yangming and taiyang (the pivot

position).)

 

2) its use as a pathomechanism " .the evil enters the lesser yang and the

pivot becomes inhibited. " I think that any pathomechanism by definition

includes some kind of normal physiology function when not problematic.

 

I see no problem with understanding the pivot from these angles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(chris)In a specific context,

i.e. SHL, shaoyang can be understood as disease. In CM classics in general,

its meaning cannot be limited in this way.

 

[Jason]

 

I think we agree here. Shaoyang can be understood from many different

angles. Just because another non-SHL based source uses the term shaoyang

this doesn't necessarily have any reference to the pivot (do you agree?)

 

 

 

(chris) As to precision of sources, the editors of this edition admit (page

xiii)

that their " commentaries consist of two different types of information: a

compilation of textual interpretations from the modern literature, and

direct translations of classical commentary. " Without noting which is

which. This would appear to approximate what Jason refers to as " mainstream

TCM " .

 

[Jason]

 

I am unsure what you mean or are getting at with the above paragraph, but

what I meant by mainstream views is that when one talks about shaoyang pivot

or reads about the shaoyang pivot the mainstream idea is that you are

referring to the SHL. If I am wrong I ask for other sources. I have yet to

see any.

 

 

 

(chris)In the general introduction to shaoyang, page 407:

 

" The pivot refers the position of the lesser yang between the greater yang

and the yang brightness. The lesser yang governs the pivot, and its

functions are crucial in the movement of qi between the different regions

of the body. " Further " .an evil has entered the lesser yang. It congests

the pivot and impairs qi movement. "

 

[Jason]

 

To elaborate, of course the shaoyang pivot has elements of qi stag and

impairment of qi dynamic, that is a given. But to say the reverse, for

example, any qi stagnation refers to a problem with the shaoyang pivot or

any qi dynamic problem is the same as a shaoyang (pivot) problem is IMHO

completely wrong (I think this was the original idea). It is backwards

logic.

 

Let's look at the consequence of such a statement. Someone has Lung qi

stag. and one assumes that the shaoyang pivot is involved, what formulas are

given for shaoyang pivot problems? Now the approach picked might work, but

I think you can see the point that this is far from mainstream (for only a

small % of lung qi stag problems actually involve the liver) and without

some sources, evidence, clinical research etc. I would say that because of

lack of precision of theory one is experimenting on their patients. This

can also be seen for digestive disorders. Many GI disorders involves

malfunction of the qi dynamic, but can we say that all of those involve the

shaoyang pivot, I personally say no, but let's see.

 

 

 

The main thrust of the shaoyang pivot is that it is congested (from a

pathogen) and this results in " .ministerial fire becomes frenetic, it will

manifest in observable signs. " " . in severe cases the spleen and stomach are

affected. " But it is really about the heat being depressed and becoming

frenetic because the pathogen has congested the GB (where the ministerial

fire normally resides (among other places) notice the signs of heat (dry

throat, bitter taste in the mouth, heart vexation) Let us look at the

difference between a qi mechanism problem.

 

 

 

Qi mechanism problems many times have zero to do with heat and really are

very broad. For example the normal physiological functions include

" promoting warmth, defensive qi, retentive functions, and qi

transformations. (zhong yi da ci dian, p.610) "

 

 

 

Apart from a plethora of complaints that come about from dysfunctions of

just the qi transformation, specifically when the qi mechanism is inhibited

one gets " Glomus and oppression of the chest and stomach duct, abdominal

distension, abdominal pain, un-regulation of the urine and stool, etc,

(ibid) " One can see quite quickly that such issues may make up some of the

shaoyang pivot problems, but definitely they are not the same.

 

 

 

So what is the problem with the shaoyang pivot being synonymous with qi

dynamic? (IMO) we lose the precision, and the essence of what a shaoyang

disease actually is, and therefore lose the treatment ideas specific for

such a condition (SHP). When there is a pathogen congesting the shaoyang

pivot a certain (semi) specific presentation will occur (outlined by the

SHL) (and of course later expanded, but the essence is worth recognizing

from the SHL). And from that (semi) specific treatment strategies, that are

quite effective, are given.

 

 

(Chris) Clearly (in these passages), 'pivot' is a general descriptive term

for

shaoyang functionality, like qi dynamic. It becomes pathological when

" congested " , and as the qi when " impaired " .

 

[Jason]

 

Agreed, but let us emphasize 'LIKE the qi dynamic'. Basic logic : x is a

subset of Y - this does not make Y a subset of X. So unless you have the

idea that X=Y, we should be clear, nO?

 

 

 

(chris) Given that the concept of pivot is not used in the SHL itself, but

appeared

earlier in the NeiJing/SuWen, the assertion that the concept should be

understood only according to the SHL, i.e. in the name of these otherwise

un-sourced commentaries, is less than conclusively proven.

 

[Jason]

 

I 100% agree, I don't think I ever said that one should discount all other

sources, but let us see them. Although, it is my current assumption that the

bulk of information about the SY pivot centers around the SHL. If you (or

others) can find evidence to the contrary I would like to see it. But I

would not say that I would call these " un-sourced commentaries " Yes they do

not footnote every comment, but they are definitely talking about the SHL

hence the majority MUST be from SHL commentaries. But I really don't see the

point about quibbling about where these commentaries are from. The important

thing is what they say. I personally know Craig & Nigel and am very

confident in their pick of quality sources for this great book that they put

together.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

*

 

Given that the concept of pivot is not used in the SHL itself, but appeared

earlier in the NeiJing/SuWen, the assertion that the concept should be

understood only according to the SHL, i.e. in the name of these otherwise

un-sourced commentaries, is less than conclusively proven.

 

 

 

 

[Jason]

 

Further interesting information: When one does an internet search on shang

yang pivot (in Chinese) one ONLY gets hits from SHL or jingui commentary. I

saw zero for neijing. What this means to me is that the idea of the

shaoyang being the pivot in-between taiyang and yangming is (probably) from

the Neijing, but the concept of the actual shaoyang pivot as related to

shaoyang disease (ala pathomechanism) probably originated from the SHL -

Anyone have any other information?

 

Also interesting is that SHL commentary also discusses the 'shaoyin pivot'

and what happens when this is congested. (different from shaoyang pivot

pathology) and also different from general qi dynamic pathology.

 

Furthermore although the Shao yang pivot shows up in Chinese it is not used

often, and I would probably guess it is exclusive to the SHL. Also the

zhong yi da ci dian does not contain an entry for it.

 

 

 

Interesting discussion.

 

-

 

..

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...>

wrote:

> what I meant by mainstream views is that when one talks about shaoyang pivot

> or reads about the shaoyang pivot the mainstream idea is that you are

> referring to the SHL. If I am wrong I ask for other sources. I have yet to

> see any.

>

 

Ling Shu 5.

[Guest guest]

_____

 

kampo36 [kampo36]

Sunday, September 12, 2004 2:05 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Shao yang pivot

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...>

wrote:

> what I meant by mainstream views is that when one talks about shaoyang

pivot

> or reads about the shaoyang pivot the mainstream idea is that you are

> referring to the SHL. If I am wrong I ask for other sources. I have yet to

> see any.

>

 

Ling Shu 5.

 

[Jason]

 

Ok. I think this is very telling. 1st chapter 5 (nor do I think the whole

neijng) does not mention at all the 'shao yang pivot.'

 

IT does have the quote about shao yang is the pivot.or " the shaoyang

*channel* (in the body) is like a pivot of the outer door " and when it

malfunctions one has " wavering of the bones, and one cannot walk safely (or

something). " It is reference to acupuncture and the treatment is said to

prick the shaoyang channel of the bladder. " That is about it.

 

A couple things can be pointed out:

 

 

 

1) It is *very* vague.

 

2) It has nothing to do with qi stagnation, qi dynamic, or SHL idea of the

pivot or shaoyang disease. Therefore cannot be used for evidence for the

previous ideas of qi stagnation = shaoyang pivot (or whatever it was).

 

3) It is an alternative view to shaoyang (pivot) being involved in

disease. And I also think after reading this I even more so believe that

the SHL holds the mainstream dominant (and most useful) stance and

definition of the shaoyang pivot. Even after reading this (as with much of

the neijing) I have no idea what to do with this brief mention of the

shaoyang and pivot being diseased. Has anyone thought about the shaoyang /

pivot in these terms?

 

 

 

So thanx for showing another source that uses the pivot idea, and this

further demonstrates how much different the SHL commentary of the pivot is

than the neijing (lingshu). Anyone else get anything else out of it?

 

 

 

-

[Guest guest]

The approach of the Shang Han Lun to shao yang disease is an original

application of Ling Shu channel theory to herbal medicine. I think it

is clear that the full development of the shao yang pivot idea begins

with the Shang Han Lun.

 

 

 

On Sep 12, 2004, at 1:02 PM, wrote:

 

 

> What this means to me is that the idea of the

> shaoyang being the pivot in-between taiyang and yangming is (probably)

> from

> the Neijing, but the concept of the actual shaoyang pivot as related to

> shaoyang disease (ala pathomechanism) probably originated from the SHL

> -

> Anyone have any other information?

[Guest guest]

Reply to Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:30:18, " "

 

 

Agreed, (I think) that shaoyang in the SHL context is closely related to

the pivot idea --between in and out, cold and heat -- and in other contexts

they may not be synonymous. And that qi dynamic/motion relates to this

shaoyang functionality, but is not reducible to it.

 

For both notions, as in mathematical logic, A implies B does not mean B

implies A. If both of those assertions were true, then, properly speaking,

the relationship is one of logical equivalence. (As you also point out

further down.)

 

My comments about Mitchell et al and their commentaries reflect that I was

somewhat disappointed that they don't provide documentation for the sources

of these comments, specifically providing more insight into who and where

developed the " pivot " notion in understanding the SHL. Their justification

(page xiii: " ince our aim as been to reach the modern Western student

and practitioner of Chinese medicine, we have not dwelt excessively on the

minutiae of traditional debate that might only interest the medical

historians… " ) is understandable; otherwise their work would extend to

multiple volumes, and they probably wouldn't yet be finished. The end of

the quotation above ( " … and have concentrated our main effort on detailed

explanation of widely recognized interpretations " ) is what I mean by

" mainstream TCM " - no criticism, one way or the other intended. As I've

noted previously, I have an academic background in historical studies, and

this aspect in CM is of interest.

Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:04:44, " kampo36 " <kampo36 wrote:

>> Ling Shu 5.

(My mistake, earlier writing that the pivot notion appeared in the

neijing/suwen.)

I've spent a couple of hours going over this (Wu translation and original,

and comparing with an English rendering of a French translation - the only

other version I have available. (I don't have the time right now to dissect

the original Chinese passages, so just sketching it broadly from the

translations…)

Fascinating!

Ling Shu 5 presents a pivot (using the character shu1) concept in three

places.

1) A general description of EPF (external pathogenic factor) invasion as

disrupting qi dynamic and messing with the pivot, and the necessity of

knowing the " beginning and end " (the title of the chapter) of the channels

to properly resolve conditions.

2) A description of the foot yang channels in analogy to an " outer " door:

taiyang as bolt, yangming as plank of the door, and shaoyang as the pivot.

(Failure of each is described using largely musculo-tendinal Sx. -- see

below)

3) A description of the foot YIN channels along similar lines for an

" inner " door: taiyin as the bolt, jueyin as the " flank of the inner door "

(according to Wu), and shaoyin as the pivot. (The French version reverses

the latter two relationships, but the Chinese text (in Wu) seems to support

Wu's version.)

Fascinating to me because these resonates with an understanding of the

jinjing or sinew channel dynamics in a system I am currently studying.

(From the ideas of Jeffery Yuen; but my understanding may be incomplete, so

I won't unconditionally attribute these thoughts to him.)

In sinew channel dynamics, the physiology of the channel system reflects

the basic activities of physical movement. Yang (outward motion): taiyang

standing and walking towards a goal, and extending the hand when at the

goal; shaoyang navigating, twisting/turning (choices/decisions) under way,

and rotating the hand/arm; yangming as stopping, as grasping and holding.

Conversely on the yin side (inward motion): taiyin contracting into sitting

from standing; shaoyin twisting/turning towards reclining; and jueyin lying

down (one can think of dying, the ultimate inversion, in the 6th stage of a

general understanding of channel progression).

In both the yang and yin aspects, shaoyang and shaoyin are " pivotal " .

This view of the physiology has also interesting ramifications in pathology

and diagnosis. That is, diagnosis of what channel/s is/are involved by

correlating symptoms with the various different kinds of movement, rather

than only by the location of AhShi points.

The association with the sinew system is tickled further by a further

passage in LS 5 discussing the energy movement in terms of 50 cycles per

day, which, in my memory, is associated with the WeiQi dynamics - the sinew

channels are conduits of WeiQi.

Admittedly, the channel descriptions in this chapter do not appear to be

those commonly thought of as the proper sinew channel pathways,

specifically the unusual diversions these take (vs the primary pathways)

around the head, chest and back.

Sorry if this is a diversion from the SHL discussion, but it set-off

associations for me, as I also earlier sketched, as an area where the

notion of " pivot " appears shed light in context other than the SHL, and in

acupuncture rather than herbal medicine.

(More later when I get time to examine the Chinese passages in depth -

unless someone else here does it first.)

Also as yet unsolved: the source of the quotation in Mitchell et al SHL,

page 12 ( " shu1 ji1 bu4 " ).

Indeed >>Interesting discussion.

[Guest guest]

See Pirog, " Practical Application of Meridian Style Acupuncture " for some

perspective on

Shaoyang (and Shaoyin) as the pivot.

 

This was the first concept I was taught on Shaoyang as pivot. Then again, John

Pirog was

my teacher and is still a friend and colleague I respect highly. His ideas on

this both

published and not and my further private thoughts on them have proven quite

useful to

me at times.

 

I have no if this is " mainstream " or not. Nor do I care. I don't really make

it a point to

consume mainstream anything. Just look at my cd collection.

 

rh

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...>

wrote:

> [Jason]

>

> Ok. I think this is very telling. 1st chapter 5 (nor do I think the whole

> neijng) does not mention at all the 'shao yang pivot.'

>

> IT does have the quote about shao yang is the pivot.or " the shaoyang

> *channel* (in the body) is like a pivot of the outer door " and when it

> malfunctions one has " wavering of the bones, and one cannot walk safely (or

> something). " It is reference to acupuncture and the treatment is said to

> prick the shaoyang channel of the bladder. " That is about it.

>

> A couple things can be pointed out:

>

>

>

> 1) It is *very* vague.

>

> 2) It has nothing to do with qi stagnation, qi dynamic, or SHL idea of the

> pivot or shaoyang disease. Therefore cannot be used for evidence for the

> previous ideas of qi stagnation = shaoyang pivot (or whatever it was).

>

> 3) It is an alternative view to shaoyang (pivot) being involved in

> disease. And I also think after reading this I even more so believe that

> the SHL holds the mainstream dominant (and most useful) stance and

> definition of the shaoyang pivot. Even after reading this (as with much of

> the neijing) I have no idea what to do with this brief mention of the

> shaoyang and pivot being diseased. Has anyone thought about the shaoyang /

> pivot in these terms?

>

>

>

> So thanx for showing another source that uses the pivot idea, and this

> further demonstrates how much different the SHL commentary of the pivot is

> than the neijing (lingshu). Anyone else get anything else out of it?

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

_____

 

kampo36 [kampo36]

Monday, September 13, 2004 6:12 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Shao yang pivot

 

 

 

See Pirog, " Practical Application of Meridian Style Acupuncture " for some

perspective on

Shaoyang (and Shaoyin) as the pivot.

 

[Jason]

 

Could you give a little synopsis, for I do not have this book and will most

likely not be getting it anytime soon. Where does the idea(s) come from?

 

 

 

This was the first concept I was taught on Shaoyang as pivot. Then again,

John Pirog was

my teacher and is still a friend and colleague I respect highly. His ideas

on this both

published and not and my further private thoughts on them have proven quite

useful to

me at times.

 

I have no if this is " mainstream " or not. Nor do I care. I don't really

make it a point to

consume mainstream anything. Just look at my cd collection.

 

[Jason]

 

This is an interesting statement to me, and one that deserves a few words.

Understanding what is mainstream (especially) here in the west is almost

essential when trying to shift through the MSU and something real. (this is

not to say that some of the MSU has clinical validity, but that is another

issue.) I.e. Concepts like shaoyang were completely bastardized years ago

when CM started filtering over. There were very few books and people just

started running with ideas that they might have heard at a lecture. People

without access to authentic teachers or Chinese language many times have

very strange ideas around such concepts. I always question such concepts

when I can't find them at all in Chinese (this is (IMO) non-mainstream)..

Even in Chinese one can and should use such thinking to decipher what is

probably most clinically useful. IF there is a statement in the Neijing

that says XYZ, and yet one cannot find any real mention of it since then,

one can probably bet that the clinical utility is on the minimal side. This

XYZ concept is not mainstream for a reason, one just has to look at the

whole picture. So if one wants to sift through the non-mainstream ideas of

the past looking for some magical gem then fine, but I personally am very

comfortable consuming mainstream tried and true material. So it may not say

that much when one says that a shaoyang pivot idea is mainstream, or not.

But when we find out that i.e. that it doesn't exist in Chinese (or

Japanese) and some westerner made it up, or there is a brief mention of the

pivot idea in the neijing, but not much more, then we really have saved

ourselves a whole lot of time. And I personally am all about maximizing my

time!

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...>

wrote:

> See Pirog, " Practical Application of Meridian Style Acupuncture " for some

> perspective on

> Shaoyang (and Shaoyin) as the pivot.

>

> [Jason]

>

> Could you give a little synopsis, for I do not have this book and will most

> likely not be getting it anytime soon. Where does the idea(s) come from?

>

>

 

actually i must confess that i don't have the time nor inclination to continue

this

discussion. i rather regret having posted to this thread in the first place,

really.

 

the book is heavily referenced to classical and modern sources, lets just say

that. john's

very meticulous that way.

 

 

>

>. I always question such concepts

> when I can't find them at all in Chinese (this is (IMO) non-mainstream).

 

if i'd stuck to tcm i never would have found toyohari, shudo, etc. virtually

every chinese

doc i've shown the non-insertion tqs to has told me there's no way it would

work.

 

toyohari is not really mainstream even in japan. there are things which are

doctrine in

toyohari that originated with fukushima daisensei and are in direct opposition

to classical

sources.

 

even toyohari association has its own mainstream and i've learned tq from their

members

outside their mainstream which are useful. i think manaka was a genius but a

lot of

people in various mainstreams think his stuff is science fiction.

 

if i'd stuck to the mainstream i probably would be doing something else for a

living right

now. but that's just me, i'm weird that way.

 

> And I personally am all about maximizing my

> time!

 

me too which is why i'm bowing out here. have fun.

 

rh

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...> wrote:

> _____

>

> kampo36 [kampo36]

> Sunday, September 12, 2004 2:05 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Shao yang pivot

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " "

> <@c...>

> wrote:

> 1) It is *very* vague.

>

> 2) It has nothing to do with qi stagnation, qi dynamic, or SHL

idea of the

> pivot or shaoyang disease. Therefore cannot be used for evidence

for the

> previous ideas of qi stagnation = shaoyang pivot (or whatever it

was).

 

Hi Jason,

 

The original poster wanted some explanation on " Shao Yang pivot " and

I explained my understanding saying that " shao yang pivot " can be

understood from circulation of qi. Never did I say that all problems

of qi stagnation is attributed to Shao Yang pivot as this is

obviously a contradiction to the Zheng diagnosis principle. I also

never said that " shao yang pivot " as explained in your SHL commentary

is unacceptable to me.

 

There is also another explanation of " shao yang pivot " from Tang Yong

Chuan (a Qing Dysnasty TCM doctor) related to SHL. However, he

explained the " shao yang pivot " in terms of the Hand Shao Yang San

Jiao Jing as well as the Gb Shao Yang. I don't quite like his

explanation because it mixes up with Western Anatomy concepts.

Whoever interested can refer to Zhang Xi Chun's " Yi Xue Zhong Zhong

Can Xi Lu " or Tang Yong Chuan's original article.

 

About the Su Wen, " shao yang pivot " and " shao ying pivot " are

mentioned as well in " Su Wen Yin Yang Li2 He2 Lun4 " .

 

Again, if my post has led anybody into the idea of " qi stagnation =

shao yang pivot " , I sincerely apologize.

 

Thanks

 

Jit Kiat

[Guest guest]

No worries, thanx for your input.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

Tan Jit Kiat [jitkiatt]

Monday, September 13, 2004 11:27 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Shao yang pivot

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@c...> wrote:

> _____

>

> kampo36 [kampo36]

> Sunday, September 12, 2004 2:05 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Shao yang pivot

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " "

> <@c...>

> wrote:

> 1) It is *very* vague.

>

> 2) It has nothing to do with qi stagnation, qi dynamic, or SHL

idea of the

> pivot or shaoyang disease. Therefore cannot be used for evidence

for the

> previous ideas of qi stagnation = shaoyang pivot (or whatever it

was).

 

Hi Jason,

 

The original poster wanted some explanation on " Shao Yang pivot " and

I explained my understanding saying that " shao yang pivot " can be

understood from circulation of qi. Never did I say that all problems

of qi stagnation is attributed to Shao Yang pivot as this is

obviously a contradiction to the Zheng diagnosis principle. I also

never said that " shao yang pivot " as explained in your SHL commentary

is unacceptable to me.

 

There is also another explanation of " shao yang pivot " from Tang Yong

Chuan (a Qing Dysnasty TCM doctor) related to SHL. However, he

explained the " shao yang pivot " in terms of the Hand Shao Yang San

Jiao Jing as well as the Gb Shao Yang. I don't quite like his

explanation because it mixes up with Western Anatomy concepts.

Whoever interested can refer to Zhang Xi Chun's " Yi Xue Zhong Zhong

Can Xi Lu " or Tang Yong Chuan's original article.

 

About the Su Wen, " shao yang pivot " and " shao ying pivot " are

mentioned as well in " Su Wen Yin Yang Li2 He2 Lun4 " .

 

Again, if my post has led anybody into the idea of " qi stagnation =

shao yang pivot " , I sincerely apologize.

 

Thanks

 

Jit Kiat

 

 

 

 

 

 

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