Dr. Cheng's curling the needle around the intestines method?

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Benjamin

 

Benjamin wrote:

> It is a fascinating divergence of experience....

 

Agreed. I have seen many acupuncturists at work, treaing animals

and humans. So far, I have not seen any 2 who treat identically.

 

> ... I remember one Chinese instructor (Dr. Cheng Xiao Ming) who

> uses a 10 " 28g coiled needle for Crohns, inserting it deeply into

> the abdomen and, supposedly, curling it around the intestines.

 

If the expression " curling it around the intestines " means guiding the needle to

form a U- or circular- shape around the intestines, Dr. Cheng must be a master

magician!

 

IMO, he would need Yuri-Geller-like ability to curl metals! He also would need

Superman X-ray vision to allow him visualise the peritoneum, intestinal

mesenteries, blood vessels, etc. Benjamin, Dr. Cheng may have skills that

elude me, but I would not try his method unless I was " out of my tree " !

 

> I have never tried it, and never will ... Benjamin

 

That is very wise for your patients' sake and for your own reputation and

fitness

to practise!!

 

I have done gastrointestinal surgery in cattle and sheep. I presume that the

problems of such surgery in humans are similar.

 

If one looks at the anatomy of the intestines (example: http://tinyurl.com/4vguj

), one can see the problem. Intestines and other abdominal organs are

surrounded / supported by peritoneum and mesenteries. The intestines

themselves are coiled higgledy-piggeldy. Even with lararotomy, experienced

surgeons often have a problem to locate any exactly required part of the

intestinal tract.

 

Even if one had endoscopic optical guidance, it would be a superhuman trick to

curl a 10 " needle around the intestines without risk of serious complications.

 

Blind needling with a long needle of a cavity that holds vital organs is not to

be

recommended as a routine procedure. Standard acupuncture textbooks forbid it.

 

Standard medical practice has some exceptions. These include specifiic

diagnostic techniques, such as thoracic and abdominal paracentesis and

optically-guided needle biopsy. Blind biopsy of organs like the liver and

prostate

is done, but there can be side effects, and some authors recommend optically-

guided biopsy instead. Also, intraperitoneal injections, for example with

electrolytes, and thoracic / abdominal drains are occasionally used in

hospitals.

 

Apart from Dr. Cheng's probably unpublished claim, what other publications

could one quote to justify deliberate use of such a bizarre and dangerous

practice in acupuncture?

 

What defence could one make in the event of (say) intestinal perforation,

followed by internal bleeding, perotinitis and eventual intestinal adhesions /

obstruction?

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

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Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

One of my clinic supervisors (wonderful Chinese man who was a surgeon in

China before coming to the US) told me that he had seen large hematomas in

uterine

fibroids during surgery that came from previous deep needling acupuncture.

He said " therefore, I don't advise needling into fibroids. "

 

Perhaps since fibroids are 'pathogenic' tissue, they don't have the smarts to

get out of the way.

 

--roseanne

[Guest guest]

I had an instructor in school that described a technique similar to

this. He didn't mention curling, but said you just go in

perpendicular and work your way in between the intestines. He said

it's difficult to actually pierce the intestines because they move

out of the way of the needle, but you have to go slowly because the

intestines tend to move slowly. He said the same is true of veins,

then did a demonstration on a student trying as best as he could to

actually pierce a vein, but never was able to as the vein always

moved out of the way. It's not so much concerned with knowing the

geography of the intestines, but knowing when you run into something

and to wait until the right moment to proceed. By going

perpendicular you have control of where you are in relation to

internal organs. Clearly one would need a very sensitive and delicate

touch to accomplish this successfully, but I would imagine it's

possible. But with that said I won't be trying it anytime soon.

 

I think parts of the body act as squeaky wheels when they want

attention. Local needling works in part because it provides some

attention to that part of the body and acknowledges that it needs

something. Directly touching the intestines for crohns disease would

be about as close as one could get.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Brian,

 

> I had an instructor in school that described a technique similar

> to this. He didn't mention curling, but said you just go in

> perpendicular and work your way in between the intestines. He said

> it's difficult to actually pierce the intestines because they move

> out of the way of the needle, but you have to go slowly because the

> intestines tend to move slowly. He said the same is true of veins,

> then did a demonstration on a student trying as best as he could

> to actually pierce a vein, but never was able to as the vein always

> moved out of the way. It's not so much concerned with knowing the

> geography of the intestines, but knowing when you run into

> something and to wait until the right moment to proceed. By going

> perpendicular you have control of where you are in relation to

> internal organs. Clearly one would need a very sensitive and

> delicate touch to accomplish this successfully, but I would imagine

> it's possible. But with that said I won't be trying it anytime

> soon.

 

Brian, would you allow the instructor, or another therapist, to blind-needle

your

intestine?

 

> I think parts of the body act as squeaky wheels when they want

> attention. Local needling works in part because it provides some

> attention to that part of the body and acknowledges that it needs

> something.

 

Agreed. There are precedents for that if you can see or feel the affected area

easily. Examples include treatment of sensitive areas on scars, Trigger Point

therapy, Tianying treatment (needling the lesion, such as periosteal-AP in

tennis elbow, needling BL01 or ST01 in eye diseases (with the eyeball bushed

out of the way)), etc.

 

Also, in veterinary medicine, direct stimulation of certain organs is used

routinely in certain cases. Examples are manual massage of the cervix and / or

clitoris pre-artificial insemination, cervical massage (internal or external) in

ringwomb, manual ballotment +/- rolling in displaced abomasum or uterine

torsion, etc. Massage of the udder and teats of mastitic quarters, using hot

cloths +/- mild stimulant lotions/ointments, used to be used in bovine mastitis,

but these methods are rarely used today.

 

> Directly touching the intestines for crohns disease would be about

> as close as one could get. brian

 

IF this is thought to be essential, IMO, other ways of stimulating the intestine

(especially colon) would be safer than blind attempts at needling it.

 

For example, one could do gentle to deep massage of the abdomen over the

affected part, or one could use a rectally-inserted baloon-type tip-protected

catheter into the colon and apply intraluminal massage by rythmical

inflation/deflation of the distal bulb.

 

I would NOT use these methods, because there are several safer and well

established methods of treating Crohn's / IBS / colitis by using mainstream

acupuncture +/- appropriate herbal medicines +/- stress counselling, etc.

Homeopaths might add a nosode of Mycobacterium paratuberculosis (johnei).

 

Will the instructor who advocates direct needling of the intestines pick up the

tab if serious adverse effects occur?

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

>

> Brian, would you allow the instructor, or another therapist, to

blind-needle your

> intestine?

>

 

This is not a yes or no issue for me. For a simple case of diarrhea,

no. If I had a serious problem that normal treatment hadn't been able

to touch, and the practitioner was very skilled at this, had a

reputation from others for being able to do it, AND I was completely

comfortable with him or her and had confidence in them, and/or if

surgery was the only remaining alternative, then it's a possibility.

 

The instructor I had never claimed to have done it, and he always

errs on the side of caution, so I doubt he's done it in the US. I

don't know who he learned this from, but there's a good bet it was in

china.

 

> IF this is thought to be essential, IMO, other ways of stimulating

the intestine

> (especially colon) would be safer than blind attempts at needling

it.

>

 

I agree that more established methods should be tried first given the

invasiveness and risk involved with this type of procedure. IMO, if

this is thought to be essential, other methods have already been

exhausted.

 

> Will the instructor who advocates direct needling of the intestines

pick up the

> tab if serious adverse effects occur?

>

 

I should clarify that he was in no way advocating any of the students

do this. I can't remember how it came up in class but was probably in

response to a question concerning needling depth in the abdominal

cavity. It was passed on as information but in no way was there any

encouragement for anyone to practice this. I of course can't speak

for this person, but am pretty sure he's willing to live with the

risks that he takes.

 

As a further note, we all have to know our limits. We have to

acknowledge to ourselves what are capabilities are and live within

those limits. Problems happen and rules have to be set when people

stray outside of those limits and don't even know that they have. But

the people who do have advanced skills in certain areas beyond those

of the average person and are aware of their limits can go farther

than the average peson with their techniques if the situation is

appropriate. What defines appropriate encompasses a large gray area

and I'm not attempting to pass judgement here on how that might apply

to any particular person here in the US.

 

I had another instructor that did very cutting edge research in china

by treating paralysis in patients by inserting very specially

designed needles above and below the traumatized portion of the

spinal cord. His sense of touch is so well developed he could put the

needle at the spinal cord sheath and no farther. Then electricity was

run between the two needles. (this was done in a hospital in a

surgical unit). He treated maybe 10 patients with this technique.

None ever got worse, and he had three people with miraculous results.

This was years ago in china. In the US MD's are just beginning to

think of doing this now, since I seem to remember reading about a

much milder form of this performed on christopher reeves.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , ra6151@a...

wrote:

> One of my clinic supervisors (wonderful Chinese man who was a

surgeon in

> China before coming to the US) told me that he had seen large

hematomas in uterine

> fibroids during surgery that came from previous deep needling

acupuncture.

> He said " therefore, I don't advise needling into fibroids. "

>

> Perhaps since fibroids are 'pathogenic' tissue, they don't have the

smarts to

> get out of the way.

>

> --roseanne

 

I would certainly do not encourage any deep needling over organs, (or

curious organs). The deep intestinal needling that I refer to is only

described for the intestines, and is explicitly avoids the organs.

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian, & All

 

> I certainly do not encourage any deep needling over organs, (or

> curious organs). The deep intestinal needling that I refer to is

> only described for the intestines, and is explicitly avoids the

> organs.

 

Are not the intestines organs? Fu = Hollow ORGANS.

 

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "